1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

meditraitor

munchester29 wrote: »

Seems Hamas is now firing WP into Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055472.html

Best laugh all day

The humour forum is that way>>>>>>

This is a picture of the rockets Hamas use



How much white phosphorous can they fit..........

But you continue reading that sh ite and increasing your ignorance... Its a very very very pro Isreali site

The Saint

concussion wrote: »

Do you mean were the shells set to detonate on impact rather than in the air? If so, they would be much less effective than a regular high explosive shell. The WP shells being used have a small charge which is initiated by a timer. When this detonates, the WP cannister is pushed out of the carrier (shell) itself. 100ms later a smaller charge (about 20 grams worth) blows off the casing of the cannister and the WP is dispersed. When done at altitude the WP disperses as it falls and forms a large smoke screen. If the projectile was set to explode on impact the cannister would probably not even separate from the carrier. If it did, there is only a minute charge to blow the casing off (for comparison, a hand grenade has 150-200 g of explosive). All you would be left with would be a tighly concentrated pile of WP.

I'm not concerned with the effectiveness of it. I'm wonering about the legality of it. If it was used as a weapon it would be against international law. Wouldn't a concentrated pile of WP create an increased incendiary reaction and therefore destructive reaction rather than being widely dispersed when being used as a smokescreen?

paulaa

di11on wrote: »

Man,

For all those posting nonsense about use of white phosphorous munitions (particularly WP "cluster bombs") read this very good Wikipedia article on it. You will see a WWII image of a WP munition exploding over a ship which looks similar to the images from Gaza. Cluster munitions didn't exist in 1945. The multiple trails you see are the phosphorous reacting with the water vapour in the air. WP is commonly used to generate tactical smoke screens to hide movements from the enemy. If you're into that sort of thing, there's an interesting piece on the chemistry behind why it is very effective as a smoke generation agent.

As mentioned already, the tactical use of WP for creation of smoke screens and for illuminating targets is perfectly legal.

Secondly, I would like to ask that those who contend Israel is intentionally using WP munitions in an anti-personnel role... why would they do that? Considering the media war is almost as important as the military campaign... why would they use munitions illegally like this - what advantage, military or otherwise, would it have?

In my opinion those that honestly think it is being used in an anti personnel capacity are not being reasonable.

They have not allowed most of the media into Gaza, remember, unless they are embedded with the IDF.

Israel has never been noted for it's moderate use of weaponry. They have broken every UN agreement they have signed up to and have no regard for human life that is not Israeli.

The UN has warned them that their use of WP is illegal against civilians so they are obviously concerned too

di11on

meditraitor wrote: »

...
But you continue reading that site and increasing your ignorance... Its a very very very pro Isreali site

It's as pro-Israeli and the Irish Times is pro Irish... it's the website of a mainstream Israeli newspaper. Of course it's pro-Israeli. It doesn't mean there isn't valuable/interesting information there... but of course it will lean towards the Israeli perspective... just as Al Jazeera has valuable and interesting information which leans towards the Palestinian/Arab side.

You've got to read both sides if youu've any chance of getting a balanced picture of events.

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Having lived there before I can tell you that the electorate or moderate side of Israel is not like that.

In power is an Anyone-But-Likud Coalition which comprises almost every area of Israeli political outlook you can think of.

OR

the Secular but hardline Likud. No introduction needed methinks.

Like this country, politicians will sell their soul just to get in government and betray all of their principals just as the left/moderates have done.

Maybe not in public they're not but there are a lot who do think like that

meditraitor

di11on wrote: »

You've got to read both sides if youu've any chance of getting a balanced picture of events.

That fair, I do keep abreast of both sides propoganda but that particular site is so Blinkered its a joke.

I was pointing out an inconsistancy in their lies. The rockets hamas use are filled with fuel and a very small amount of explosives.

White phosphorous is needed in much greater quantities to be of any use in killing or maiming (the purpose of firing the rockets ) Only isreal's missiles are capable of firing enough WP to kill and maime(and they are doing that)

Also were did they get the white phosphorous?






On a side note, I now understand why munchester is so blinkered. Reading that nonsense, all they are shy of writing is that there is no incursion and its all a big hamas/palestinian lie.

paulaa

concussion wrote: »

Out of interest, where did this figure come from?

An American surgeon who was speaking on France24 about the injuries that the Gazan medical staff will be dealing with atm

paulaa

meditraitor wrote: »

Best laugh all day

The humour forum is that way>>>>>>

This is a picture of the rockets Hamas use



How much white phosphorous can they fit..........

But you continue reading that sh ite and increasing your ignorance... Its a very very very pro Isreali site

I wonder how much fertiliser they can stuff into one of those, since that's what most of them are made up with:P

Actually that site is quite good as the Correspondents don't all follow the party line and it's good to read the views of both sides

munchester29

quad_red wrote: »

I would have my doubts about that link...

However, if it is true, then it should be condemned unreservedly.

Munchester - do you think the large scale use of WP in a civilian area is acceptable? Is it acceptable to inflict terrible civilian casualties if they are merely collateral damage in the process of firing WP munitions to create smoke cover?

I find war to be unacceptable in general.

munchester29

meditraitor wrote: »

Best laugh all day

The humour forum is that way>>>>>>

This is a picture of the rockets Hamas use



How much white phosphorous can they fit..........

But you continue reading that sh ite and increasing your ignorance... Its a very very very pro Isreali site

The Palestinians use more than one type of rocket (several types of Grad, Qasam rockets), they also have several types of mortars. Both rockets and mortar shells can carry WP loads.

As for "Haaretz" - this is actually considered a left wing newspaper in Israel, they tend to criticize the Israeli government for the Gaza crisis, and "Haaretz" is often quoted by Palestinian supporters.

meditraitor

munchester29 wrote: »

I find war to be unacceptable in general.

But you've done your best over the past two weeks trying to convince us Isreal is within its rights to slaughter these poor people!

Not good enough though. Nothing you or any of the other giyus like posters who have been spouting nonsense here can convince me that isrela has a right to murder.

or hamas.

Although its like comparing Howard shipman to Stalin.

The number of people killed by each side does fucking matter

munchester29

paulaa wrote: »

Israel has never been noted for it's moderate use of weaponry. They have broken every UN agreement they have signed up to and have no regard for human life that is not Israeli.

Actually, Israel is only using a fraction of its force in Gaza. If they wanted to, they could level the whole city in a matter of days.

They actually care more for Palestinian lives than the Palestinian leadership does.

di11on

paulaa wrote: »

They have not allowed most of the media into Gaza, remember, unless they are embedded with the IDF.

Gaza has two international borders. It shares one with Egypt and and one with Israel. Egypt isn't letting reporters in either.

In fact, why do you think the Palestinians have to use tunnels to smuggle goods from Egypt? Because Egypt has sealed their border with Gaza. Why? Because Hamas are as much a danger to them as to Israel. Hamas is a proxy for Iran in this conflict... which is as much undesirable to Egypt as to Israel.

paulaa wrote: »

Israel has never been noted for it's moderate use of weaponry. They have broken every UN agreement they have signed up to and have no regard for human life that is not Israeli.

I wouldn't say they have no regard for human life that is not Israeli. See here. Sadly, civillian casualties are an inevitble result of armed conflict, as much as you try to avoid them. And sadly, armed conflict is what happens when you elect a terrorist organisation into power and they fire weapons at a neighbouring country. Any government's obligation is to defend it's citizens from attack.

paulaa wrote: »

The UN has warned them that their use of WP is illegal against civilians so they are obviously concerned too

They aren't using WP against civilians.

meditraitor

munchester29 wrote: »

Actually, Israel is only using a fraction of its force in Gaza. If they wanted to, they could level the whole city in a matter of days.

They actually care more for Palestinian lives than the Palestinian leadership does.

You dont really believe that?

youcrazyjesus!

speedboatchase wrote: »

So is this "debate" 99 or 100% pro-Hamas? Israel is well within its right to react to an unprovoked attack from Hamas aggressors, whose values and actions are typical of every barbaric Islamic extremist group there. Hamas just has better PR that allows bleeding hearts to compare their targeting of civilians and disgusting human-shield tactics to blindside Irish people amongst others into believing there's some link between them and Collins et al

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055776.html

Lovely bunch of lads

Israel is the occupying power, Israel is constantly attacking Palestinians, this has been going on over 60 years, it could be very easily argued that Hamas are retaliating to crimes a 1,000 worse than their rockets.

Hamas has better PR than Israel?

First Hamas launch rockets, now SMS messages, pure evil.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Actually, Israel is only using a fraction of its force in Gaza. If they wanted to, they could level the whole city in a matter of days.

Cold comfort for the 1000 dead and the destroyed civilian infrastructure.

munchester29 wrote: »

They actually care more for Palestinian lives than the Palestinian leadership does.

Why did Israel kick out all the Palestinians then? You do know that the majority of Gazan's are actually from what is today Israel. They were expeled to the Gaza strip by Israel and not allowed to return due to there ethnicity. Doesn't sound like caring to me.

Also, there is the litte matter of the siege of 1.5 million Palestinians, the violent colonialism, Jewish only roads and apartheid wall among many other things. Does not sound like caring to me.

paulaa

munchester29 wrote: »

Actually, Israel is only using a fraction of its force in Gaza. If they wanted to, they could level the whole city in a matter of days.

They actually care more for Palestinian lives than the Palestinian leadership does.

If you believe that, I have a bridge in the desert to sell you :rolleyes:

bobbyjoe

di11on wrote: »

Gaza has two international borders. It shares one with Egypt and and one with Israel. Egypt isn't letting reporters in either.

In fact, why do you think the Palestinians have to use tunnels to smuggle goods from Egypt? Because Egypt has sealed their border with Gaza. Why? Because Hamas are as much a danger to them as to Israel. Hamas is a proxy for Iran in this conflict... which is as much undesirable to Egypt as to Israel.

Would it also be the billions in aid Egypt gets from the US?

munchester29

meditraitor wrote: »

But you've done your best over the past two weeks trying to convince us Isreal is within its rights to slaughter these poor people!

Not good enough though. Nothing you or any of the other giyus like posters who have been spouting nonsense here can convince me that isrela has a right to murder.

or hamas.

Although its like comparing Howard shipman to Stalin.

The number of people killed by each side does fucking matter

Not really what I was saying - I was saying that Israel has a right to defend itself, and valid reasons to do it.

quad_red

di11on wrote: »

Sadly, civillian casualties are an inevitble result of armed conflict, as much as you try to avoid them. And sadly, armed conflict is what happens when you elect a terrorist organisation into power and they fire weapons at a neighbouring country. Any government's obligation is to defend it's citizens from attack.

That's a very selective reading of the situation. Gaza is not an independent state. And on electing Hamas in free elections, avowed Israeli and US policy has been to remove Hamas totally.

Gaza and Israel are not 'neighbouring countries'. There is no peaceful status quo. To pretend that everything was hunky dory before Hamas started firing rockets is to hear what you want to hear.

di11on wrote: »

They aren't using WP against civilians.

I would argue that the difference is minimal if they are making extensive use of WP in areas filled with civilians (as any area in Gaza almost inevitably will be) causing casualties.

wes

di11on wrote: »

Gaza has two international borders. It shares one with Egypt and and one with Israel. Egypt isn't letting reporters in either.

In fact, why do you think the Palestinians have to use tunnels to smuggle goods from Egypt? Because Egypt has sealed their border with Gaza. Why? Because Hamas are as much a danger to them as to Israel. Hamas is a proxy for Iran in this conflict... which is as much undesirable to Egypt as to Israel.

The Egyptian dictator is being paid off by the US. Also, they have agreements with Israel, meaing they can't actually open it.

di11on wrote: »

I wouldn't say they have no regard for human life that is not Israeli. See here. Sadly, civillian casualties are an inevitble result of armed conflict, as much as you try to avoid them. And sadly, armed conflict is what happens when you elect a terrorist organisation into power and they fire weapons at a neighbouring country. Any government's obligation is to defend it's citizens from attack.

You forget the siege, cononialism, ethnic cleansing, and all the crap that Israel heaped on the Palestinians before the rockets.

Also, none of what I said excuses the rockets, but there can be no excuses for Israel either.

meditraitor

munchester29 wrote: »

Not really what I was saying - I was saying that Israel has a right to defend itself, and valid reasons to do it.

Defending oneself and the slaughter of innocents is a completly different thing brother.

You really need to take another look at this conflict from a different angle

Ping Chow Chi

munchester29 wrote: »

Actually, Israel is only using a fraction of its force in Gaza. If they wanted to, they could level the whole city in a matter of days.

They actually care more for Palestinian lives than the Palestinian leadership does.

lol

If they leveled the city while keeping the population penned in, well I would imagine that even the US would find it hard to support them after that.... plus I believe that even the Israel goverment isn't that barbaric.

I do find the comparison very very strange ... like someone who beats his wife up and then says ... well I could have knifed her so I'm not that bad. bizzar

di11on

wes wrote: »

Why did Israel kick out all the Palestinians then? You do know that the majority of Gazan's are actually from what is today Israel. They were expeled to the Gaza strip by Israel and not allowed to return due to there ethnicity. Doesn't sound like caring to me.

Also, there is the litte matter of the siege of 1.5 million Palestinians, the violent colonialism, Jewish only roads and apartheid wall among many other things. Does not sound like caring to me.

Might want to brush up on the history of the conflict. I've copied this from another thread and it summarises it quite well.

Benny Morris, an Israeli historian who he is considered as a biased historian by most Israelis and is often quoted by Palestinian supporters, sent a letter to the Irish times stating the following:

“ISRAEL-HATERS are fond of citing my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections. In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly resolution of November 29, 1947, (Palestinian Arabs) launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.
Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders).
There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet of March 10, 1948, was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15.
It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that midway in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.“

quad_red

munchester29 wrote: »

Actually, Israel is only using a fraction of its force in Gaza. If they wanted to, they could level the whole city in a matter of days.

They actually care more for Palestinian lives than the Palestinian leadership does.

To be fair - that is absolutely twisted logic.

How many Israeli's have been killed? How many Palestinians have been killed? I do not think Palestinian casualties are of any great concern to the IDF beyond their ability to raise hackles internationally.

And prohibiting respected international journalists access to document the carnage, whose testimony would surely be harded to refute, is indicative of the IDF's motives in this regard.

Maybe I'm misjudging you - maybe you're just being optimistic when you praise the IDF for not slaughtering everyone in the Gaza strip. In comparison to that, I suppose hundreds of civilian casualties is positively generous!

wes

di11on wrote: »

Might want to brush up on the history of the conflict. I've copied this from another thread and it summarises it quite well.

Benny Morris, an Israeli historian who he is considered as a biased historian by most Israelis and is often quoted by Palestinian supporters, sent a letter to the Irish times stating the following:

“ISRAEL-HATERS are fond of citing my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections. In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly resolution of November 29, 1947, (Palestinian Arabs) launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.
Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders).
There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet of March 10, 1948, was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15.
It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that midway in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.“

What he describes amounts to ethnic cleansing, he even says they expelled people. Also, plenty of other historians agree that ethnic cleansing took place. To call it anything else is a bad joke.

Just, because Morris doesn't want to call what is clearly ethnic cleansing doesn't change things 1 bit.

Also, I would reccommend the works of Ilan Pappes book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", for what happened.

Also, simple question how exactly do you think they could setup a Jewish state, where they would be a minority? Kind of hard to do that, don't you think.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

Actually, Israel is only using a fraction of its force in Gaza. If they wanted to, they could level the whole city in a matter of days.

They actually care more for Palestinian lives than the Palestinian leadership does.

Another out of the box propaganda argument. Your arguments are becoming even more transparent. The Israelis don't give a flying **** about Palestinians. By their own words AND actions we know this to be false.

Palestinians should be thankful to Israel for not unleashing genocide on them?

What a sick, twisted viewpoint.

Just reading the breakingnews.ie story:

“These were people who were scared. They rushed into the nearest UN facility,” said one official.

BUT SHORTLY AFTER, a shell hit the school"



No idea if the story is 100% accurate, but if it is it would fit a pattern of Israeli behaviour.

paulaa

di11on wrote: »

Gaza has two international borders. It shares one with Egypt and and one with Israel. Egypt isn't letting reporters in either.

In fact, why do you think the Palestinians have to use tunnels to smuggle goods from Egypt? Because Egypt has sealed their border with Gaza. Why? Because Hamas are as much a danger to them as to Israel. Hamas is a proxy for Iran in this conflict... which is as much undesirable to Egypt as to Israel.


I wouldn't say they have no regard for human life that is not Israeli. See here. Sadly, civillian casualties are an inevitble result of armed conflict, as much as you try to avoid them. And sadly, armed conflict is what happens when you elect a terrorist organisation into power and they fire weapons at a neighbouring country. Any government's obligation is to defend it's citizens from attack.


They aren't using WP against civilians.

The world and it's mother knows that Egypt is paid off with American dollars every year to do as it's told. Read this

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-the-rotten-state-of-egypt-is-too-powerless-and-corrupt-to-act-1220048.html

Those tunnels were a lifeline to the Gazans. It wasn't just missiles that were coming through them, it was food, medicines, parts for broken down machinery, messages from relatives,even live animals. The blockade was inhuman to them and the Israelis wouldn't let anything through the borders.

If you think the Israelis hard liners think anything about Palestinian life or see them as anything other than sub-human, how about these statements from notable Israelis over the years

"1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies *not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001

2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

4. "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969. "



http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.html?q=palestinians.html

munchester29

wes wrote: »

Why did Israel kick out all the Palestinians then? You do know that the majority of Gazan's are actually from what is today Israel. They were expeled to the Gaza strip by Israel and not allowed to return due to there ethnicity. Doesn't sound like caring to me.

Actually, the majority of people in Gaza have been under Egyptian rule until Israel conquered the area in 1967.
It is probable that some Palestinians who fled Israel in 1948 went to Gaza, but I have no specific figures.

wes wrote: »

Also, there is the litte matter of the siege of 1.5 million Palestinians, the violent colonialism, Jewish only roads and apartheid wall among many other things. Does not sound like caring to me.

Siege – a result of continued attacks, even after Israel left Gaza.

Colonialism – Israel hasn’t built new colonies in years. They are expending existing ones which they feel will remain under Israeli rule once a peace agreement is signed. No violent colonialism for at least several years (I don’t really recall a violent one – Palestinians dying in their hundreds when kicked out of their homes).

Jewish only roads – These were built because the Palestinians kept attacking the regular roads used by everyone. These roads are purely to protect Israelis against Palestinian aggression.

“Apartheid” wall – built to stop suicide bombers and it actually works.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Actually, the majority of people in Gaza have been under Egyptian rule until Israel conquered the area in 1967.
It is probable that some Palestinians who fled Israel in 1948 went to Gaza, but I have no specific figures.

The majority are refugees or there descendants.

munchester29 wrote: »

Siege – a result of continued attacks, even after Israel left Gaza.

They turned Gaza into a prison and then stole more land in the West Bank.

Also, the siege is an act of state terrorism.

This has all been pointed out before and you continually ignore these facts.

munchester29 wrote: »

Colonialism – Israel hasn’t built new colonies in years. They are expending existing ones which they feel will remain under Israeli rule once a peace agreement is signed. No violent colonialism for at least several years (I don’t really recall a violent one – Palestinians dying in their hundreds when kicked out of their homes).

Colonialism is by its very nature violent, just ask the Native Americans. Also, there is no difference between building new colonies and expanding the current ones.

This has all been pointed out before and you continually ignore these facts.

munchester29 wrote: »

Jewish only roads – These were built because the Palestinians kept attacking the regular roads used by everyone. These roads are purely to protect Israelis against Palestinian aggression.

No, there purely racist in nature, as there a part of there colonial project. Even Apartheid South Africa didn't go that far.

munchester29 wrote: »

“Apartheid” wall – built to stop suicide bombers and it actually works.

Built to steal more land. They could easily build it on there own land, but insist on steal more Palestinian land.

This has all been pointed out before and you continually ignore these facts.