Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians
Options
Comments
-
IRISH RAIL wrote: »most have brought that on themselves ?
Collective punishment is a no-no. Or do you think every American is equally guilty for George Bush, or every Israeli for Ariel Sharon?IRISH RAIL wrote: »Imagine for a moment that finnna fail have put quassams in your back garden to launch at the north
would you be happy ?
would you expect the uk to sit idly by and let this hapen ?
would you vote for fianna fail again ??
Its rather more complicated than your loaded questions allow for, as you exclude the col,onisation of the West Bank etc, and seem to think that bombing my area is a fair response to what happens in my back yard.
Why is it you never address the occupation specifically? I've brought it up a number of times now and not once have you referred back to it.IRISH RAIL wrote: »ps I dont like comparing situations in Ireland with the middle east its not very productive or balanced that was a hypothetical situation I think most people in gaza are in why if they were democraticly elected did they put anyone from fatah who lives there in prision ?
I presume you're referring to the fighting between Hamas and Fatah. It would appear they took a leaf from the Americans book and struck pre-emptively. However they weren't making up the reasons they did it....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/04/usa.israelandthepalestiniansThe Bush administration, caught out by the rise of Hamas, embarked on a secret project for the armed overthrow of the Islamist government in Gaza, it emerged yesterday.
Vanity Fair reports in its April edition that President George Bush and the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, signed off on a plan for the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to remove the Hamas authorities in Gaza. The plan called for Washington's allies in the region to funnel arms and salaries to Fatah fighters who would lead a rising against Hamas.
It should be pointed out that having the newly trained and armed fighters that were supposed to 'take care' of Hamas parade back from Egypt wasn't exactly helping the "secret" aspect of things....0 -
By brought it on themselves do you mean by throwing stones at tanks? Or by walking past a police station? Or by being pregnant and trying to get to a hospital?IRISH RAIL wrote: »most have brought that on themselves
Quick question, if you were effectively living in a huge prison where most of your human rights are violated on a daily basis by an occupying army who are in violation of countless UN resolutions, your house has just been demolished to make way for an illegal settlement, can you tell me what you would try to do about it? Seriously, put yourself in this situstion for a minute and tell me what your solution to the problem would be....0 -
Manic Moran wrote: »Because electing Hamas and its legitimate political position was a collective act to begin with? Ever since the election, it's a national position, with national reprecussions.IRISH RAIL wrote: »most have brought that on themselvesbut they are the same civillians that democratically voted
This is an outrageous stance that is against international law and is a war crime. How come the folk that believe this do not believe in the right of their own people to be attacked because of who they elect? Hypocrisy pervades throughout.0 -
By brought it on themselves do you mean by throwing stones at tanks? Or by walking past a police station? Or by being pregnant and trying to get to a hospital?
no by being members of hamas
Quick question, if you were effectively living in a huge prison where most of your human rights are violated on a daily basis by an occupying army who are in violation of countless UN resolutions, your house has just been demolished to make way for an illegal settlement, can you tell me what you would try to do about it? Seriously, put yourself in this situstion for a minute and tell me what your solution to the problem would be....
I would stop firing rockets and try for peace
but hamas doesnt want peace
a lot of terrorist supporters here seem to have some notion that Israel refuses to enter a ceasefire with hamas
that is pure propaganda and lies the Israeli cabinet would very much like to continue the lull (that was broken by hamas on a daily basis ) eygpt has tried to extend this lull but hamas are refusing to renew it.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
Are you allowed to call someone deluded on this forum?IRISH RAIL wrote: »I would stop firing rockets and try for peace
but hamas doesnt want peace
a lot of terrorist supporters here seem to have some notion that Israel refuses to enter a ceasefire with hamas
that is pure propaganda and lies the Israeli cabinet would very much like to continue the lull (that was broken by hamas on a daily basis ) eygpt has tried to extend this lull but hamas are refusing to renew it.0 -
IRISH RAIL wrote: »I would stop firing rockets and try for peace
but hamas doesnt want peace
a lot of terrorist supporters here seem to have some notion that Israel refuses to enter a ceasefire with hamas
that is pure propaganda and lies the Israeli cabinet would very much like to continue the lull (that was broken by hamas on a daily basis ) eygpt has tried to extend this lull but hamas are refusing to renew it.
Just a few small points.
1) Are you trying to say that the Israeli cabinet and Egypt are on the same side in regards to the "lull" as you so inaccurately describe it?
2) Why are the attacks on Israel terrorism and the attacks on Palestine not? I am not saying what my position is, I just wonder whether you've actually thought about this or just swallowed conventional wisdom?
3) Using pejorative terms like "terrorist supporters" seems unbecoming of someone who claims that they would "try for peace". I think it really just belies your pro-Israel position.*
*Not that there is anything wrong with a pro-Israel position. It's just your thoughts are sloppy, your arguments devoid of logic and any moral weight you may claim is defunct because you claim the moral high ground and then refuse to entertain moral equivalence.0 -
IRISH RAIL wrote: »I would stop firing rockets and try for peace
OK, so you stop firing rockets and try for peace, you do this for 2 years, meanwhile you cannot now get a job as the border restrictions have increased, the unemployment in your 'country' has now increased to 53%, a huge wall has been built through your back garden, you have very little food and no clean drinking water, you child has fallen ill but you cannot get to a hospital on the arbritrary whim of a 'border' soldier. This goes on for 2 years....now what do you do?IRISH RAIL wrote: »but hamas doesnt want peace
a lot of terrorist supporters here seem to have some notion that Israel refuses to enter a ceasefire with hamas
This is simply not true....and I love the way anyone who questions Israels policy in Palistine is now a 'terrorist supporter'....
Would you be happy for Israel to return to its 1948 borders if you could be 100% convinced that it would be guarinteed to be free from attacks from its neighbours?0 -
-
Deleted User wrote: »Just a few small points.
1) Are you trying to say that the Israeli cabinet and Egypt are on the same side in regards to the "lull" as you so inaccurately describe it?
where is the inaccuracy im describing
2) Why are the attacks on Israel terrorism and the attacks on Palestine not? I am not saying what my position is, I just wonder whether you've actually thought about this or just swallowed conventional wisdom?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
3) Using pejorative terms like "terrorist supporters" seems unbecoming of someone who claims that they would "try for peace". I think it really just belies your pro-Israel position.*
well let me spell it out Hamas IS a terrorist orginisation and there attacks are being retaliated
*Not that there is anything wrong with a pro-Israel position. It's just your thoughts are sloppy, your arguments devoid of logic and any moral weight you may claim is defunct because you claim the moral high ground and then refuse to entertain moral equivalence.
just as you do0 -
Advertisement
-
IRISH RAIL wrote: »just as you do
First off, you have failed to address any of my points. All you have done is used a wikipedia definition for your argument which, considering my point about conventional "wisdom", is sort of ironic frankly.
Secondly, where have I failed to show moral equivalency? A plague on both their houses. They are locked in a continuing spiral of violence which is a terrible product of their shared history and both have reason to be outraged and both are blighted by the shame of their actions.
Thirdly, the very definition to which you point states the following:Wikipedia wrote:Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.[2][3] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants.
So firstly you point out that there is no real definition of it, and fail to answer my point and secondly you point to an article which actually reinforces the fact that Israel's indiscriminate and/or reckless attacks on Palestine fit within the loose description of terrorism which you point to.
So I ask you again to answer the points I made without just quoting some nonsense source like wikipedia.
Oh, and one final point: If Israel attacked Palestine first would that make suicide bombings a legitimate means of retaliation by a militarily inferior occupied state against an oppressor? Even at this stage, regardless of who started what (it's a matter of opinion not fact in any case, choosing the start date is arbitrary, Isaac and Ishmael would suffice at this point) both sides are absolutely convinced they are doing what is in their best interests. Israel is militarily superior so it uses gunships and tanks, Palestine uses suicide bombings and guerrila warfare techniques. Are you attempting to define terrorism by military tactics?0 -
Collective punishment isn't acceptable. It's a crime
By your own arguments, such a situation does not exist.
If we are to work on the basis that Hamas is the elected goverment of a state under partial occupation, and that Hamas de facto recognises the Israeli government as the government of another state, then there is a commonly used term for the situation which arises when one government declares to another government that the truce is over and starts lobbing munitions. This term is "A state of war" and there's little in the rules which says you can't blow the crap out of a nation's infrastructure if you're in a de facto state of war with it, with minor limitations. (Not least also that since the PNA hasn't signed the Geneva Conventions, Israel aren't legally bound by them in the case of Gaza Strip anyway if you want to take the above track)
On the other hand, if you wish to view the Gaza Strip as legally an Israeli territory, or take the alternate Hamas view that the Israeli government is illegitimate and should not exist, then you are not so much in a state of war as you are in an insurgency in which case the collective punishment provision of Gen IV Art 33 might possibly apply.
This seemed prophetic: http://www.welt.de/english-news/article2899574/Hamas-declares-end-of-ceasefire-with-Israel.htmlHamas stopped short of threatening an immediate escalation against Israel, which had hoped to extend the truce and appears wary of a confrontation that could cause heavy casualties on both sides.
NTM0 -
Manic Moran wrote: »By your own arguments, such a situation does not exist.
If we are to work on the basis that Hamas is the elected goverment of a state under partial occupation, and that Hamas de facto recognises the Israeli government as the government of another state, then there is a commonly used term for the situation which arises when one government declares to another government that the truce is over and starts lobbing munitions. This term is "A state of war" and there's little in the rules which says you can't blow the crap out of a nation's infrastructure if you're in a de facto state of war with it, with minor limitations. (Not least also that since the PNA hasn't signed the Geneva Conventions, Israel aren't legally bound by them in the case of Gaza Strip anyway if you want to take the above track)
On the other hand, if you wish to view the Gaza Strip as legally an Israeli territory, or take the alternate Hamas view that the Israeli government is illegitimate and should not exist, then you are not so much in a state of war as you are in an insurgency in which case the collective punishment provision of Gen IV Art 33 might possibly apply.
This seemed prophetic: http://www.welt.de/english-news/article2899574/Hamas-declares-end-of-ceasefire-with-Israel.html
NTM
Well the International Court of Justice seems to think that the Geneva Conventions are applicable to the Occupied Palestinian Territories. I think I'll go with their interpretation of international law rather than yours if you don't mind. From the ICJ:Applicable law.
United Nations Charter - General Assembly resolution 2625 (XXV) - Illegality
of any territorial acquisition resulting from the threat or use of force -
Right of'peoples to self-determination.
International humunitarian law - Regulations annexed to the Fourth Hague
Convention of 1907 - Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 - Applicability of
Fourth Geneva Convention in the Occupied Palestinian Territory - Human
rights law -- - International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights -Internutional Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights - Convention on the Rights of the Child - Relationship between international humanitarian law and
humun rights law - Applicability of human rights instruments outside national
territories - Applicabillity of those instruments in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.ReufJlrrning the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention' as well
as Additional Protocol 1 to the Geneva Conventions2 to the Occupied
Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem,
Reculling the Reguiations annexed to the Hague Convention Respecting
the Laws and Customs of War on Land of 1907',
Welcoming the convening of the Conference of High Contracting Parties
to the Fourth Gerieva Convention on measures to enforce the Convention
in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including Jerusalem, at Geneva on
15 July 1999,
Exprrssing its support for the declaration adopted by the reconvened
Conference of High Contracting Parties at Geneva on 5 December 2001,In view of the foregoing, the Court considers that the Fourth Geneva Convention is applicable in the Palestinian territories which before the 1967 conflict lay to the east of the Green Line and which, during that conflict, were occupied by Israel, there being no need for any enquiry
into the precise prior status of those territories.all the States parties to the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 are under an obligation, while respecting the United Nations Charter and international law, to ensure compliance by Israel with international humanitarian law as embodied in that Convention.all States parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 have in addition the obligation, while respecting the United Nations Charter and international law, to ensure compliance by Israel with international humanitarian law as embodied in that Convention;0 -
Please don't refer to those who object to Israel's appalling treatment of the Palestinians as "terrorist supporters". Now again, to all those who refuse to acknowledge Israel's heinous record in this regard (and really, I can't understand how anyone with any intelligence would argue otherwise): if you were a Palestinian, would you be happy with your life as a second-class citizen?IRISH RAIL wrote: »a lot of terrorist supporters here seem...0 -
Hey look! It's a man making sense:
0 -
Please don't refer to those who object to Israel's appalling treatment of the Palestinians as "terrorist supporters". Now again, to all those who refuse to acknowledge Israel's heinous record in this regard (and really, I can't understand how anyone with any intelligence would argue otherwise): if you were a Palestinian, would you be happy with your life as a second-class citizen?
LOGICIALLY IT'S THEIR OWN FAULT FOR VOTING IN HAMAS. IN THE SAME WAY EVERY AMERICAN IS TO BLAME FOR THE POLICIES OF BUSH THEREFORE THEY REAP WHAT THEY SOW. YOU MUST ALSO UNDERSTAND EMPATHY IS FOR SOFITES AND LEFT-WING PEOPLE.0 -
nacho libre wrote: »LOGICIALLY IT'S THEIR OWN FAULT FOR VOTING IN HAMAS. IN THE SAME WAY EVERY AMERICAN IS TO BLAME FOR THE POLICIES OF BUSH THEREFORE THEY REAP WHAT THEY SOW. YOU MUST ALSO UNDERSTAND EMPATHY IS FOR SOFITES AND LEFT-WING PEOPLE.
You start your sentence with the word logically and then display no logic whatsoever. Stupidest thing I've read in a long time, and that's saying something on this forum.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »You start your sentence with the word logically and then display no logic whatsoever. Stupidest thing I've read in a long time, and that's saying something on this forum.
stupidity is also not detecting sarcasm0 -
nacho libre wrote: »stupidity is also not detecting sarcasm
Sarcasm being the tool of the intelligent in a debate such as this. Oh, and my point stands as either a) you were serious and therefore stupid or; b) sarcastic where it is both unnecessary, unwanted and totally unfunny and are, therefore, quite stupid.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Sarcasm being the tool of the intelligent in a debate such as this. Oh, and my point stands as either a) you were serious and therefore stupid or; b) sarcastic where it is both unnecessary, unwanted and totally unfunny and are, therefore, quite stupid.
Do you get to define the paramaters of what makes an acceptable reply?
Sarcasm i felt was an effective way to point out the hypocrisy of some of the arguments used by Israeli apologists in this thread. Fair enough you have an opposing views. however, i'll reply as i see it unless told to do otherwise by the mods.0 -
Advertisement
-
-
Israel is the terrorist, the Palestinians are the victims here, always have been since the illegal birth of the state of Israel. Ask any so called jew what they are doing in the middle east, they will tell you God gave them this land. These so called jews say they are decended from the tribe of Judah, one of the lost tribes of Israel, yet their DNA proves that 99.999% of todays jews are Khazars, an ethnic group of turk/mongols who converted to Judism a few hundred years ago, so their Biblical stance for their right to be there is flawed as there is not a drop of true Jew blood in their bodies.
The land is Palestine, home to Palestinian people, and when God does give the land back to the decendants of the tribe of Judah, the Palestinian people will be a lot higher up the ladder than these evil imposters who have neither religious, ethnic or any other reason to be there.
The Palestinian people have suffered undocumented abuse since Israel was formed, on a daily basis they struggle to survive without basic essentials that we all take for granted, yet nobody cares cause the media have them branded as terrorists while the real terrorists mascarade as the righteous and the masses buy this crap through the controlled media.
Hamas are the only legitimate organisation in Palestine because they cannot be bought, or made bow down to the oppressor, they would rather be free in their graves than live as puppets or slaves. I dont know too much about Abbas of the Fatah movement, but I know his predecessor yasser arafat was a freemason, who lived a life of charade and deciet, who on entry to the evil cult swore a blood oath to put his brethren first above all non masons, never reveal the secrets of the occult order, some other people in the region also made these bizzarr blood oaths to this cult, they include Yikzak Rabbin, King Hussein of Jordan and other famous brethren include the bush family(skull and bones), henry kissinger, Billy Graham, Rev. Jesse Jackson, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Louise Farrahkan (Nation of Islam), Joseph Smith (Mormon cult)Aleister Crowley (Satanist), Gerald B. Gardner (Wiccan), Wynn Westcott (Golden Dawn), the list is endless but what all these have in common is to put their brethren and their evil schemes before all else. I hate terrorists and hope they get their cummupance sooner or later and the real fighters for freedom are branded terrorists by the mainstream media and like sheep, the masses follow the lead.
I wish the galant people of Palestine all the best in their struggle againt the terrorists.0 -
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.[2][3] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants.
Israel doesnt dilebritly target civillians it surgically strikes targets
if you were to believe hamas media you would be led to think that no Hamas operatives have been killed that everyone was a civillian that is simply not true0 -
The palestinians brought this on themselves?
That makes as much sense as the jews brought the holocaust onto themselves. Sure they were all secret bolshevik agents trying to over throw national socialism....right??:rolleyes:
Reality can have many shades sometimes, especially from those how write about it.
Some people should take a step back and read what they write.
I just think some people are taking such a stance just to go against the grain.
That is fine but to ignore reality to do so is making a mockery of this topic. Then again i think that was the objective. Bring it off course and beat it do death. Congrats on doing that.
I wonder how many people will die tomorrow?0 -
OK, so you stop firing rockets and try for peace, you do this for 2 years, meanwhile you cannot now get a job as the border restrictions have increased, the unemployment in your 'country' has now increased to 53%, a huge wall has been built through your back garden, you have very little food and no clean drinking water, you child has fallen ill but you cannot get to a hospital on the arbritrary whim of a 'border' soldier. This goes on for 2 years....now what do you do?
get my facts right
This is simply not true....and I love the way anyone who questions Israels policy in Palistine is now a 'terrorist supporter'....
Would you be happy for Israel to return to its 1948 borders if you could be 100% convinced that it would be guarinteed to be free from attacks from its neighbours?
yes I would but there will always be some groups trying to wipe it off the map0 -
IRISH RAIL wrote: »yes I would but there will always be some groups trying to wipe it off the map
Just as there are some elected politicians within the Israeli Knesset who call for the forced expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank. There'll always be nutters but the fact is that no group has, or will ever have the capability to wipe Israel off the map. It's a pointless comment to state that it is the intention of a few as it is never going to happen anyway.0 -
IRISH RAIL wrote: »yes I would but there will always be some groups trying to wipe it off the map
Well, the only country that has been wiped off the map is Palestine. Locate it if you can on any modern map.0 -
Please don't refer to those who object to Israel's appalling treatment of the Palestinians as "terrorist supporters". Now again, to all those who refuse to acknowledge Israel's heinous record in this regard (and really, I can't understand how anyone with any intelligence would argue otherwise): if you were a Palestinian, would you be happy with your life as a second-class citizen?
not everyone here is a terrorist supporter but some are
if I were a palestinian I wouldnt have voted for a group of terrorists who would use my back garden to launch a missile at Israel
I wouldnt have voted for a group of terrorists that blow up busses filled with people coming home from work
I wouldnt vote for a group of terrorists who teach young kids its gods will to hate Jews and heaven awaits those who blow them up.
I wouldnt have voted for a terrorist group that uses kids to transport bombs thru checkpoints, and uses my kids as human shields then goes to a nightclub to kill innocent kids, that fires rockets at playgrounds, that has links with al qaeda,that spends all its international aid not on infastructure but on weapons,that continues to dig tunnells to kidnap Israelis.
maybe I would be happy voting in a party that didnt preach violence and would work on a roadmap to setting up a palestinian state free of violence and hatred where things could go back to being good like when Israelis went to the west bank to buy cheap furniture and palestinians there were happy with thier business.0 -
Absolutely. Or else they want to be seen as a no-nonsense, hardline conservative who ticks the following boxes:I just think some people are taking such a stance just to go against the grain.
- Blanket-condemn the republican movement in Northern Ireland without considering the background to the conflict, while worshipping at the altar of unionism
- Never condemn, and even praise, the Bush administration
- Wax lyrical about Margaret Thatcher
- Be an apologist for Israel0 -
Advertisement
-
You haven't a clue what you would or wouldn't vote for because you don't know the reality of living a day in the life of an ordinary Palestinian.IRISH RAIL wrote: »not everyone here is a terrorist supporter but some are
if I were a palestinian I wouldnt have voted for a group of terrorists who would use my back garden to launch a missile at Israel
I wouldnt have voted for a group of terrorists that blow up busses filled with people coming home from work
I wouldnt vote for a group of terrorists who teach young kids its gods will to hate Jews and heaven awaits those who blow them up.
I wouldnt have voted for a terrorist group that uses kids to transport bombs thru checkpoints, and uses my kids as human shields then goes to a nightclub to kill innocent kids, that fires rockets at playgrounds, that has links with al qaeda,that spends all its international aid not on infastructure but on weapons,that continues to dig tunnells to kidnap Israelis.
maybe I would be happy voting in a party that didnt preach violence and would work on a roadmap to setting up a palestinian state free of violence and hatred where things could go back to being good like when Israelis went to the west bank to buy cheap furniture and palestinians there were happy with thier business.0
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
Advertisement