1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

The Saint

Here's what John Ging says. He was in the compound during the strikes. Pretty damning stuff.

Linky

John Ging, director of UNRWA operations in Gaza, said the attack at the compound caused a "massive explosion" that wounded three people.

A senior Israeli military officer said troops opened fire after militants inside the compound shot anti-tank weapons and machine guns. The officer spoke on condition of anonymity pending a formal army announcement later in the day.

Ging, who was in the compound at the time, dismissed the Israeli account as "nonsense."

Israeli shells first hit the courtyard filled with refugees, then struck garages and the U.N.'s main warehouse, sending thousands of tons of food aid up in flames, Ging said. Later, fuel supplies went up in flames, sending a thick black plume of smoke into the air.

U.N. officials said the shells that hit the compound contained white phosphorus, which is believed to have been responsible for burns suffered by some Palestinian civilians during the war.

"It's a total disaster for us," Ging said, adding that the U.N. had warned the Israeli military that the compound was in peril from shelling that had begun overnight. U.N. officials say they have provided Israel with GPS coordinates of all U.N. installations in Gaza to prevent such attacks.

John Ging is now on Prime Time saying that what was shot in "looked like phosphorus, smelled like phosphorus and burned like phosphorus".

concussion wrote: »

I saw a UN spokesman on the 6.1 news this evening (Guinness/Gunness??). He said Israeli artillery was hitting close to the compound and some fragments were fallling inside. They got in contact with the IDF to tell them they were firing close. He went on to say that later on one shell landed in the compound and three people were injured. He didn't mention white phosphorus whatsoever. One building full of humanitarian supplies caught fire, but that's no evidence that WP was used.

Regarding a WP smoke shell hitting the ground and it's effectiveness, if it's not going to disperse well then it's of very limited use as an incendiary, especially if it may not even separate from the carrier in the first place.

In terms of the convention, as it's not designed as an incendiary then it's not covered and therefore not prohibited. Even if it was designed primarily as such, you can still use it against military targets as long as it's not dropped from aircraft.

Lemming

Manic Moran wrote: »

Believe it or not, there might actually be viable military reasons as well, varying from target array through the size of tubes available or the construction standards of the buildings throught to presence of aircraft.

Oh I don't doubt it MM, I just think someone neglected to mention to MOSSAD that HAMAS probably don't have much in the way of aircraft or high-grade building materials/equipment

quad_red

concussion wrote: »

I saw a UN spokesman on the 6.1 news this evening (Guinness/Gunness??). He said Israeli artillery was hitting close to the compound and some fragments were fallling inside. They got in contact with the IDF to tell them they were firing close. He went on to say that later on one shell landed in the compound and three people were injured. He didn't mention white phosphorus whatsoever. One building full of humanitarian supplies caught fire, but that's no evidence that WP was used.

John Ging is on Prime Time now saying that in his opinion it was WP munitions. He said it smelled like phosphorus and burned like phosphorus.

dublincelt

quad_red wrote: »

John Ging is on Prime Time now saying that in his opinion it was WP munitions. He said it smelled like phosphorus and burned like phosphorus.

Jaysis that blond bimbo callaghan is such a ****ing tool!!

concussion

quad_red wrote: »

John Ging is on Prime Time now saying that in his opinion it was WP munitions. He said it smelled like phosphorus and burned like phosphorus.

Similar story being carried on RTE - tank shells and an arty shell into the compound followed by a WP shell into the workshops.

paulaa wrote: »

An American surgeon who was speaking on France24 about the injuries that the Gazan medical staff will be dealing with atm

The EPA has it listed as class D - not classifiable as to human carcinogenicity. So I would really like to know where this doc got his 90% incidence rate

marco murphy

Any more from Prime Time? I miss everything.

TOMASJ

A Derry priest Father Eamon Martin who was visiting Bethlehem this week was on radio Ulster this morning a told a story that sums up the situation concerning the innocent children of Gaza,

Fr Martin said the most moving part of the visit was a telephone call he received from the parish priest in Gaza.
"It really would have brought tears to a stone to hear his stories.
"He told us about one of his parishioners, a young girl, 14 years old, who died of sheer fear and shock at the noise of the bombardment and the rockets and the bombs falling around her.

Offy

Lemming wrote: »

It is complicated and yet it isn't when you get down to the underlying basis for negotiation. Why?

Negotiation presumes that both sides have something the other side values. The Palestinians don't exactly have much to barter with, except their lives (which doesn't count for very much in the eyes of the Israeli cabinet). Any negotiations would be horribly, horribly one-sided unless the Israeli negotiating team has the vision and foresight to actually see what genuinely needs done by way of Israeli concession as opposed to political expediency.

TBH, I really don't hold any faith in the desire for a tangible and geniune peace by the Israeli government (short of either ethnic cleansing or subjugation which will result in ethnic cleansing anyway as the subjugated population is ordered off their land). I've seen little real initiative save from an assassinated prime minister [Yitzhak Rabin, 1995], killed by one of "his own" for making overtures of peace.

The Palestinians don't exactly have much to barter with? What about all the natural gas BP found of the GAZA coast in 1999? Palestine has a 10% share in that. They drilled two wells in 2000 and reckon theres 4 billion dollars of gas there.Now Israel have taken de facto control over Gaza's offshore gas reserves.I dont think there will be much negotiations. Israel just made 400 million dollars, I cant see them wanting to give that back.

meanmachine3

for anyone that has seen those pics of W.P. it doesn't go out straight away. any gombeen can see that if it's fired over civilian areas it's going to land on the poor ****ers. now take into account that the I.D.F. is advising palestinians to take shelter and get away from the fighting whilst detonating/exploding W.P. heres a few things i found when googling W.P.
M34 White phosphorus hand grenade.
This is an inert shell that, if active, would be filled with 15 ounces of white phosphorus and a small charge that distributes it over a 35 meter radius when set off. Anyone in that area without protection would be severely burned and/or poisoned, and flammable material would likely end up in flames.
taken from http://www.periodictable.com/Items/015.9/index.html
next we have
W.P.(c)-White Phosphorus. This is a very nasty round that is very effective against enemy units. It is like napalm and covers almost everything. It cannot be put out, even by submerging it in water. To remove a burning patch from flesh it has to be scraped off.
taken from http://www.military-sf.com/munitions.htm
the one and only reason why israel is getting away with murder is that they have the backing of the americans.

i posted earlier about clusters. it wasn't too long ago that the I.D.F. used these and point blankly denied they ever did till physical evidence was shown. and if i remember correctly the evidence was actually un-exploded clusters.
T.B.H. it would've been better if someone had started a poll then we'd get a better picture of what people actually think.

Manic Moran

it wasn't too long ago that the I.D.F. used these and point blankly denied they ever did till physical evidence was shown. and if i remember correctly the evidence was actually un-exploded clusters.

I've always wondered why they do that. My pet theory is that it's an example of someone opining on something they know nothing about. A fantastic example was the US use of WP in Fallujah a few years ago, when a State Dept rep said "No we're not using the stuff"

My guess is that he was 'ambushed' by a pointed question by a reporter, to the effect of "Are you aware of reports that US forces have used illegal white phosphorous weapons in Fallujah?" Obviously he's going to automatically deny anything illegal, even if out of an honest belief that the US doesn't condone the use of illegal weapons. Eventually someone asked the question of somebody who knew what they were on about who responded with "Yes, we used WP. What of it? No, it's not illegal," but by then the damage was done, complete with the whole "The US first denied it, then finally admitted it" effect.

Such things can happen even when you have people involved who you think might know something of the matter. Mk242 rifle ammunition was withdrawn from US Service for a while in Iraq when some military lawyer who couldn't tell the difference between hollow-point and hollow-tip ammunition decided that the rounds violated the Hague Convention and were illegal. That took a few months to work its way up the chain and get the declaration reversed.

NTM

Akrasia

Accurding to John Ging, they have found at least 6 white phosphorous shells inside the rubble of the U.N. compound. This confirms that WP was used, it also confirms that the U.N. compound was deliberately targetted (once or twice is perhaps an accident, 6 times is undeniably deliberate)

The Israelis haven't got a leg to stand on, they're blatantly and unapologetically targetting civilians and humanitarian agencies and if I hear the words 'militants are using human shields' one more time I'm going to scream.

Serenity Now!

Akrasia wrote: »

The Israelis haven't got a leg to stand on, they're blatantly and unapologetically targetting civilians and humanitarian agencies and if I hear the words 'militants are using human shields' one more time I'm going to scream.

Scream away then because the laws and conventions that people are holding Israel to (and rightly so too, I might add) are also being broken by Hamas with what you mention above as one of the transgressions.

Jack Bauer999

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Scream away then because the laws and conventions that people are holding Israel to (and rightly so too, I might add) are also being broken by Hamas with what you mention above as one of the transgressions.

Difference is as everyone keeps telling us, Hamas are a terrorist organisation, what's Israel excuse?

meditraitor

Offy wrote: »

The Palestinians don't exactly have much to barter with? What about all the natural gas BP found of the GAZA coast in 1999? Palestine has a 10% share in that. They drilled two wells in 2000 and reckon theres 4 billion dollars of gas there.Now Israel have taken de facto control over Gaza's offshore gas reserves.I dont think there will be much negotiations. Israel just made 400 million dollars, I cant see them wanting to give that back.

This is a prime example of how isreal has been raping the Palestinians for a generation.

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/pubs/19990818ib.html

For more than 50 years, water has been a source of conflict between Israel and its neighbors, especially the Palestinians. Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are in the midst of an acute water crisis brought about not simply by the area’s naturally arid conditions or the current drought, but primarily by the maldistribution of water imposed by Israel, which controls Palestinian water resources.

Currently, Israel consumes more than 80 percent of Palestinian ground water and denies Palestinians their rightful utilization of the Jordan River. Israel allocates Palestinians 93 million cubic meters (mcm) per year for industrial use, and 153 mcm per year for agricultural use, leaving per capita consumption for domestic use at less than 30 cubic meters per year. Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories are consuming Palestinian water at the rate of more than 75 mcm per year. On an annual, per capita basis, Israelis consume more than four times as much water as Palestinians.

bobbyjoe

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Scream away then because the laws and conventions that people are holding Israel to (and rightly so too, I might add) are also being broken by Hamas with what you mention above as one of the transgressions.

Hamas don't claim to represent western values and democracy in the middle east Israel do.

meditraitor

Does anybody else find this type of action repulsive. Isreal has been torturing the population for 40 years.

West Bank Water Usage
Of the water available from West Bank aquifers, Israel uses 73%, West Bank Palestinians use 17%, and illegal Jewish settlers use 10%.
While 10-14% of Palestine’s GDP is agricultural, 90% of them must rely on rain-fed farming methods. Israel’s agriculture is only 3% of their GDP, but Israel irrigates more than 50% of its land.
Three million West Bank Palestinians use only 250 million cubic meters per year (83 cubic meters per Palestinian per year) while six million Israelis enjoy the use of 1,954 million cubic meters (333 cubic meters per Israeli per year), which means that each Israeli consumes as much water as four Palestinians. Israeli settlers are allocated 1,450 cubic meters of water per person per year.
Israel consumes the vast majority of the water from the Jordan River despite only 3% of the river falling within its pre-1967 borders. Israel now diverts one quarter of its total water consumption through its National Water Carrier from the Jordan River, whereas Palestinians have no access to it whatsoever due to Israeli closures.

Israeli Military Orders to Control Water Resources


Israeli strategies aimed to negate the very presence of the Palestinian people. Major Israeli designs intended to coerce the Palestinians to vacate the land. Practices, such as land confiscation, house demolition and even killings, enabled Israel tighter control over Palestinian land including water its most valuable resource.



Immediately after the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967, Israeli military authorities issued several Military Orders (MO) to ensure tight control over water resources. On 17 June 1967, Military Order 92 was issued. It covered the following:

a-All water resources in Gaza and the West Bank are considered government property;

b-All permits for artesian wells are cancelled;

c-All information or data regarding water resources is strictly classified7.

On 15 August 1967, another Military Order was issued placing all authority over water matters, exclusively, in the hands of a military officer. Military Order 1015 issued on 27 July 1982 and was amended by Military Order 1039 on 5 December 1982 determined the nature and quantity of crops Palestinians may plant, especially, in irrigated parts. It also demanded that Palestinian farmers reduce their crops to lessen water consumption8 . Similarly, in the Gaza Strip, two Military Orders were issued declaring water resources governmental and ordering Palestinians to seek permission from the military governor for any project involving water.



These Military Orders enabled Israeli occupation authorities absolute control over Palestinian water resources. These authorities have often refused to grant any permission to dig artesian wells or to build any water networks. Dr. Paul Korch wrote in Middle Right: “Since the occupation of the Palestinian territories by Israel the military authorities did not grant a permit to a single village to dig any wells. Between 1967 and 1983 only seven wells were allowed and those were for domestic consumption”. Additionally, Israeli authorities prohibit restoration of old wells. Owners of wells that existed prior to June 1967 were forced to place meters to determine exact amounts of water drawn from their wells.



The Palestinian Planing Center reported that Israeli Water Commission exercised direct and tight control over Palestinian water resources since 1967. Two Israeli companies, Tahal was responsible for regulating water policies while Mekorot, was entrusted with digging artesian wells and sales of water in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

disgusting, in this day and age that a so called democratic country can get away with this.

munchester29

Seems that even in the Arab world, Hamas is blamed for the current crisis in Gaza.

I do recommend reading the whole article. It sheds some light on Palestinian PR and how far they will go to get world opinion in their favour (while hurting the Palestinian people in the process):

“Minister of Health Hatem El-Gabali accused Hamas of exploiting the Israeli massacre in Gaza for political ends.

"They did this by making use of some media channels and at the expense of the suffering of the Palestinians," said El-Gabali, who revealed that in the first three days of Israel's attacks Hamas had refused to send Palestinian casualties to Egyptian hospitals.”

"They (Hamas) insisted the injured be treated in Gaza's hospitals although the capacity to treat them effectively was not there," said El-Gabali. He also pointed out that the Rafah crossing is open to allow tones of medical supplies into Gaza. Egypt has sent more than 100 ambulances to the Rafah crossing and more than 500 Egyptian doctors are ready to go to Gaza and help treat injured Palestinians."

Shura Council Chairman and Secretary-General of the ruling National Democratic Party (NDP) Safwat El-Sherif:

“The leaders of Hamas, who have brought havoc to Gaza, should not blame Egypt for their mistakes and for what they have cultivated with their own hands”

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/929/eg4.htm

meditraitor

munchester29 wrote: »

Seems that even in the Arab world, Hamas is blamed for the current crisis in Gaza.

I do recommend reading the whole article. It sheds some light on Palestinian PR and how far they will go to get world opinion in their favour (while hurting the Palestinian people in the process):

“Minister of Health Hatem El-Gabali accused Hamas of exploiting the Israeli massacre in Gaza for political ends.

"They did this by making use of some media channels and at the expense of the suffering of the Palestinians," said El-Gabali, who revealed that in the first three days of Israel's attacks Hamas had refused to send Palestinian casualties to Egyptian hospitals.”

"They (Hamas) insisted the injured be treated in Gaza's hospitals although the capacity to treat them effectively was not there," said El-Gabali. He also pointed out that the Rafah crossing is open to allow tones of medical supplies into Gaza. Egypt has sent more than 100 ambulances to the Rafah crossing and more than 500 Egyptian doctors are ready to go to Gaza and help treat injured Palestinians."

Shura Council Chairman and Secretary-General of the ruling National Democratic Party (NDP) Safwat El-Sherif:

“The leaders of Hamas, who have brought havoc to Gaza, should not blame Egypt for their mistakes and for what they have cultivated with their own hands”

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/929/eg4.htm

These people have had their food,water,land and liberty gradually stolen from them for 40 years, and you are trying to convince us that they are the protagonists?

Ha fucking ha.

concussion

Akrasia wrote: »

Accurding to John Ging, they have found at least 6 white phosphorous shells inside the rubble of the U.N. compound. This confirms that WP was used, it also confirms that the U.N. compound was deliberately targetted (once or twice is perhaps an accident, 6 times is undeniably deliberate)

Do you have link to this? The the best update I can find is a report where he says it was hit by three shells, including WP.
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=29805

Hamas have fired more than 700 rockets and mortars since the start of the offensive - why are they firing them into Israel and not targetting troops. Are they trying to provoke Israel even more?

Serenity Now!

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Hamas don't claim to represent western values and democracy in the middle east Israel do.

Weak as.
If you are quoting international law and conventions then do try and apply to both sides.

meditraitor

concussion wrote: »

Do you have link to this? The the best update I can find is a report where he says it was hit by three shells, including WP.
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=29805

Hamas have fired more than 700 rockets and mortars since the start of the offensive - why are they firing them into Israel and not targetting troops. Are they trying to provoke Israel even more?

John Ging gives an interview

You can watch a repeat of channel 4 news from last night
http://www.channel4.com/news/

Watch again on the left hand side and 15th january -part 2
You should watch it.............. 5 minutes into the clip

Hit first by an artillary shell then 6 phosphorous shells

bobbyjoe

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Weak as.
If you are quoting international law and conventions then do try and apply to both sides.

Your still assuming that being against what Israel is doing now means supporting Hamas. Many people have said otherwise.

paulaa

munchester29 wrote: »

Seems that even in the Arab world, Hamas is blamed for the current crisis in Gaza.

I do recommend reading the whole article. It sheds some light on Palestinian PR and how far they will go to get world opinion in their favour (while hurting the Palestinian people in the process):

“Minister of Health Hatem El-Gabali accused Hamas of exploiting the Israeli massacre in Gaza for political ends.

"They did this by making use of some media channels and at the expense of the suffering of the Palestinians," said El-Gabali, who revealed that in the first three days of Israel's attacks Hamas had refused to send Palestinian casualties to Egyptian hospitals.”

"They (Hamas) insisted the injured be treated in Gaza's hospitals although the capacity to treat them effectively was not there," said El-Gabali. He also pointed out that the Rafah crossing is open to allow tones of medical supplies into Gaza. Egypt has sent more than 100 ambulances to the Rafah crossing and more than 500 Egyptian doctors are ready to go to Gaza and help treat injured Palestinians."

Shura Council Chairman and Secretary-General of the ruling National Democratic Party (NDP) Safwat El-Sherif:

“The leaders of Hamas, who have brought havoc to Gaza, should not blame Egypt for their mistakes and for what they have cultivated with their own hands”

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/929/eg4.htm

I'm sorry munchester29, Al-Ahram is not really a creditable source as it's a mouthpiece for the Egyptian Ministry of Information and sometimes some of their articles read like a press release from the Israelis.
I was in Egypt in November for a few weeks and I brought home some copies, I'm looking at one now that more or less states that the Gazans are lucky to have the Israelis looking out for them ( paraphrased)

paulaa

Someone asked yesterday where they could watch Al Jazeera live.
Her are links to live feed on both Al Jazeera and Press TV

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
http://www.presstv.ir/watch_live.aspx

http://www.streamick.com/index.php?tv=presstv

concussion

Akrasia wrote: »

You can watch a repeat of channel 4 news from last night
http://www.channel4.com/news/

Watch again on the left hand side and 15th january -part 2
You should watch it.............. 5 minutes into the clip

Thanks for that, very good, level headed comments from John Ging.
I wonder if the Israeli co-ordinators were working off old information when they initially told the UN there was no militant activity around the compound, seeing as the Minister is insisting there was fire being directed at troops from the vicinity.

I wonder if Israel is going to replace those supplies, seeing as they've admitted responsibility and are very sorry

Lemming

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Weak as.
If you are quoting international law and conventions then do try and apply to both sides.

There's just one minor point to remember. Israel is a signatory to the Geneva convention, Hamas are not. With that said, indeed I would still hold Hamas to the same adherance as Israel (or lack thereof by either side as the case may be ... )

And as others (including myself) have said time and again in this thread and elsewhere; being anti-israeli-action does not mean you are pro-hamas-action. This absolute f*cking ****-*rse boll*cks brain-dead mantra of "if you're not with us you're against us" is just that; absolute f*cking ****-*rse boll*cks that I wouldn't expect a cretin to regurgitate, yet alone expect a supposedly intelligent person to.

concussion wrote: »

I wonder if Israel is going to replace those supplies, seeing as they've admitted responsibility and are very sorry

Good question. The cynical side of me would point out that they're only "very sorry" that they were caught out spectacularly.

Manic Moran

Accurding to John Ging, they have found at least 6 white phosphorous shells inside the rubble of the U.N. compound. This confirms that WP was used, it also confirms that the U.N. compound was deliberately targetted (once or twice is perhaps an accident, 6 times is undeniably deliberate)

One fire mission is multiple rounds. You get your grid, aim the tube at it, and fire off your entire salvo at the target location. One round or 6, doesn't matter for intent.

NTM

BlaasForRafa

Akrasia wrote: »

Accurding to John Ging, they have found at least 6 white phosphorous shells inside the rubble of the U.N. compound. This confirms that WP was used, it also confirms that the U.N. compound was deliberately targetted (once or twice is perhaps an accident, 6 times is undeniably deliberate)

The Israelis haven't got a leg to stand on, they're blatantly and unapologetically targetting civilians and humanitarian agencies and if I hear the words 'militants are using human shields' one more time I'm going to scream.

blah blah blah, Israel has already admitted to it being a MISTAKE.

And 6 wp shells in not a great deal, an M109 battery could fire off 6 shells in seconds. It could be something as simple as an incorrectly fused batch of shells which didn't airburst at the correct height and fell on the compound. Of course a logical explanation like that wouldn't occur to anyone here it seems.

youcrazyjesus!

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

blah blah blah, Israel has already admitted to it being a MISTAKE.

And 6 wp shells in not a great deal, an M109 battery could fire off 6 shells in seconds. It could be something as simple as an incorrectly fused batch of shells which didn't airburst at the correct height and fell on the compound. Of course a logical explanation like that wouldn't occur to anyone here it seems.

And the Noble Prize For Achievements In Missing The Point goes to...

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

I'm sorry munchester29, Al-Ahram is not really a creditable source as it's a mouthpiece for the Egyptian Ministry of Information and sometimes some of their articles read like a press release from the Israelis.
I was in Egypt in November for a few weeks and I brought home some copies, I'm looking at one now that more or less states that the Gazans are lucky to have the Israelis looking out for them ( paraphrased)

more moderate arab countries like Egypt and Jordan realise that Hamas is a proxy for Iran who they don't want gaining influence in their part of the middle east.