1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

BlaasForRafa

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

And the Noble Prize For Achievements In Missing The Point goes to...

I wouldn't expect logical thought to be your forte.

youcrazyjesus!

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

more moderate arab countries like Egypt and Jordan realise that Hamas is a proxy for Iran who they don't want gaining influence in their part of the middle east.

Egypt is a dictatorship which takes it's orders from a desk in Washington. They are terrified of Hamas, but not because they are fine, upstanding members of the international community.

youcrazyjesus!

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I wouldn't expect logical thought to be your forte.

That's a childish quip, you missed or perhaps ignored the point being made.

sceptre

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

And the Noble Prize For Achievements In Missing The Point goes to...

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I wouldn't expect logical thought to be your forte.

Forum charter, please read it and step back from that line you're encroaching on. If you continue looking for a forum ban, you will get one.

meditraitor

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

blah blah blah, Israel has already admitted to it being a MISTAKE.
.

The disturbing thing is that some people have been so blinded by propoganda induced stupidity that they think an apology is enough.

Look at the Ch4 report, look into your presidents eye and tell me he is being honest.



Now say sorry. Or just continue apologising for the murder of innocents!

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

more moderate arab countries like Egypt and Jordan realise that Hamas is a proxy for Iran who they don't want gaining influence in their part of the middle east.

Egypt and Jordan do and think what they're told, they've taken their 30 pieces of silver, just like Abbas in the West Bank.

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

Egypt and Jordan do and think what they're told, they've taken their 30 pieces of silver, just like Abbas in the West Bank.

:rolleyes:

Would you prefer it the way it was? With those two countries and Syria as the principal occupiers in the region?

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Would you prefer it the way it was? With those two countries and Syria as the principal occupiers in the region?

It's not what I prefer, I don't live in the region. It's more about the fact that they are not trusted by the other states both Arab and Israeli because they will serve the highest bidder

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

It's not what I prefer, I don't live in the region. It's more about the fact that they are not trusted by the other states both Arab and Israeli because they will serve the highest bidder

Which country there hasn't?

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Which country there hasn't?

Exactly. This bring it back to the point I made before that other countries, notably US and Iran should keep their noses out of it and put their chequebooks away.
Iran has done very little to help Gaza in the last 2 years of the blockade, except if reports are true, to arm Hammas. Even at that, if they did they didn't give them anything like the kind of weapons needed to protect themselves against the Israeli onslaught that we're seeing now. They come when the Gazans are nearly wiped out with a ship load of aid that was turned back by Israel's patrol boats yesterday.
On the other hand, well we all know about the US support, billions of dollars and weapons, that the Israeli regime is propped up with.

Just out of interest Serenity, what do you think Israel would be like now if they didn't have the US support ?

marco murphy

Iran has done very little to help Gaza in the last 2 years of the blockade, except if reports are true, to arm Hammas. Even at that, if they did they didn't give them anything like the kind of weapons needed to protect themselves against the Israeli onslaught that we're seeing now.

Bit of unfair criticism I think. What exactly can Iran do in two years of blockcade? Hamas and Iran clearly have warm relations so I don't think they're worried too much about ''not doing anything''.

They come when the Gazans are nearly wiped out with a ship load of aid that was turned back by Israel's patrol boats yesterday.

Yesterday? They have tried several times infact.
What more are you expecting like?

paulaa

Perestroika wrote: »

Bit of unfair criticism I think. What exactly can Iran do in two years of blockcade? Hamas and Iran clearly have warm relations so I don't think they're worried too much about ''not doing anything''.


Yesterday? They have tried several times infact.
What more are you expecting like?

Did they send anything other than weapons, (cr*p, ones at that) during the blockade when food, medicine etc were in short supply ? What were the other Arab states doing when people were starving ? I know there were sanction against Hammas but it hasn't stopped them before.

I just don't know Perestroika. I'm getting more and more frustrated as the days go by with just about everyone attached to this horror. As usual the ordinary people are the ones bearing the brunt.

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

Just out of interest Serenity, what do you think Israel would be like now if they didn't have the US support ?

It wouldn't exist.

johnplayerblue

Serenity Now! wrote: »

It wouldn't exist.

and if it didn't exist there would be 347 children and 79 women alive this morning on the Gaza strip, Israel and its supporters should feel very proud. Good job lads, Mission accomplished.

Serenity Now!

johnplayerblue wrote: »

and if it didn't exist there would be 347 children and 79 women alive this morning on the Gaza strip, Israel and its supporters should feel very proud. Good job lads, Mission accomplished.

So long as it was Israelis got wiped out on '67, it would have been fine would it? Because thats what would have happened had Nasser had their way.
Pointing out what had led to where the region is today doesn't mean I support what the current incumbents in Israel are doing to Gaza ffs, so you can pull your sanctimonious head in thanks.

johnplayerblue

Serenity Now! wrote: »

So long as it was Israelis got wiped out on '67, it would have been fine would it? Because thats what would have happened had Nasser had their way.
Pointing out what had led to where the region is today doesn't mean I support what the current incumbents in Israel are doing to Gaza ffs, so you can pull your sanctimonious head in thanks.

Me sanctimonious...? I don't think so guy and as for your first point my answer would be a whole hearted yes as this is what should happen to any invading/imperial force.

Not Jews nor Israelis just occupiers.

TOMASJ

concussion wrote: »

I wonder if Israel is going to replace those supplies, seeing as they've admitted responsibility and are very sorry

Looks like were going to have more crocodile tears from the Israelis,
They have today bombed another school killing at least two more young children,
what will the excuse be this time,
waiting with baited breath on the Israeli apologists explanation as to what these two young terrorist were planing when the grew up,

for those who doubted that the Israelis were using white phosphorus against civilians, check out the photo today on the Aljazeera web page, it shows clearly the burning flames falling on a residential square in Gaza

Macha

John Ging on Al Jazeera right now

http://www.livestation.com/ this is great application (free) for watching quite a few newstations (al jazeera, bbc world, euronews.)

Edit: He said what he's been saying all along:
-white phosporous being used, definitely in latest attack mentioned by THOMASJ
-no where safe in Gaza
-people looking to him for answers as a UN official and he feels helpless
-creating more problems for today and future
-blockade of Gaza for last 18months is a deliberate political decision to destroy economy of Gaza
-entire population of Gaza totally dependent on food aid
-only trickle of aid coming in (Israel only allowing 100 trucks/day)

That's the first time I've actually watched any of the conflict on the ground. It was very, very difficult to watch.

munchester29

TOMASJ wrote: »

Looks like were going to have more crocodile tears from the Israelis,
They have today bombed another school killing at least two more young children,
what will the excuse be this time,
waiting with baited breath on the Israeli apologists explanation as to what these two young terrorist were planing when the grew up

I, for one, don’t really feel that Israel should apologize for anything. This is all Hamas’s fault.

These two young children (assuming they are younger than 14 because otherwise they might actually be Hamas recruits), died because of the Hamas leadership and their genocidal intentions towards Israel, as all the civilians who died in this conflict.

Hamas are using their own people as a pawn in a propaganda war, and that is why Palestinian civilians die.
As much as Israel tries, they can never avoid civilian casualties completely in such a war, in which their opponent uses their own people as shields.

If you are looking for someone to blame here, point the finger at the Hamas leadership and Iran, not at Israel who is only defending itself against a terrorist organization that have only one goal in mind – no peace, no living together side by side, no two country solution – only the destruction of the state of Israel and the murder and expulsion of all the Jews in it.

The Palestinian goal is to take control of all of Israel. The Palestinians have been saying and doing the same since 1948, about time people stop idolizing these murderous terrorists and see them for who they really are, and realize that Israel doesn’t have a choice but to defend its citizens.

Golda Meir (Israeli PM) has been quoted saying:
“ We can forgive you (the Palestinians) for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours.”

This is exactly what Hamas is doing – making Israel kill more Palestinian civilians so they can win the only war against Israel they can win – the propaganda war.

Osama Hamdan, Hamas representative in Lebanon: "Our goal is to liberate all of Palestine, from the river to the sea, from Rosh Hanikra to Umm Al-Rashrash [Eilat]. From Gaza, gentlemen... We do not want a state 364 square kilometers in size, nor do we want a state for which we had to beg at the negotiating table. Such a state will never come to be. What we want is a free state, which maintains its dignity, 27,000 square kilometers in size - the size of Palestine in its entirety."

Recommended reading for anyone who wants to learn about the true intentions of the Palestinians:

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD214608

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

Recommended reading for anyone who wants to learn about the true intentions of the Palestinians:

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD214608

Yigal Carmon — MEMRI's founder and President. Carmon is fluent in Arabic. He served as Colonel in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) Intelligence Branch from 1968 to 1988. He was Acting Head of Civil Administration in the West Bank and the adviser on Arab Affairs to the Civil Administration from 1977 to 1982.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEMRI#Prominent_staff
The rest of them are associated with the Likud party.....Except Wurmser, who was involved with the PNAC.

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEMRI#Prominent_staff
The rest of them are associated with the Likud party.....Except Wurmser, who was involved with the PNAC.

Well, if people are quoting Palestinian sources and the Guardian, nothing wrong with a little Memri for balance.

There is also a video:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1974.htm

And here is another article (I hope this source is considered better) which quotes the same Osama Hamdan:

"senior Hamas leader Osama Hamdan said the group is willing to abide by a ten year truce with Israel before waging a war to reclaim the entire area encompassing historic Palestine"

http://www.almoltaqa.ps/english/showthread.php?t=457

Macha

munchester29, does it not say anything to you that the UN has condemned Israel and that John Ging has said that no where is safe in Gaza.

Do you really think that it's acceptable that an army blockades a people in, leaves them nowhere to go and starts using white phosporous?

Do you really believe the IDF when they trot out the same excuse that shots were fired, every time they hit a UN school etc - even when the UN refutes this? Why do you take the word of the IDF over everyone elses? I don't understand..

BlaasForRafa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

It wouldn't exist.

Sorry to disagree, in 1967 and 73 Israel faced far bigger threats and they didn't have the weaponry they had now. They had some M48 Patton tanks but most of the tank force was still made up of ex-WW2 Shermans with 105mm guns, french amx-30 and ex-british centurion tanks which on paper shouldn't have matched the Syrian and Egyptian T55 and T62s. The airforce was mostly made up of french planes in 1967, by 1973 some F4 Phantoms had been received from the US.

Its only post-73 that Israel received F15s from the USA and later F16s and Apache choppers so that they would have air dominance rather than just parity with their neighbours.

munchester29

taconnol wrote: »

munchester29, does it not say anything to you that the UN has condemned Israel and that John Ging has said that no where is safe in Gaza.

Do you really think that it's acceptable that an army blockades a people in, leaves them nowhere to go and starts using white phosporous?

Do you really believe the IDF when they trot out the same excuse that shots were fired, every time they hit a UN school etc - even when the UN refutes this? Why do you take the word of the IDF over everyone elses? I don't understand..

Simple – I consider the UN and John Ging to be biased, allow me to explain:

John Ging looks at this conflict from a very narrow perspective – people are suffering, people need to stop suffering.
I never heard him criticize Hamas rocket attacks, never heard him criticize suicide bombings, never heard him going against anything that is wrong in Gaza (killings of Palestinians by Palestinians, killings of gays, treatment of women, etc). I never heard him speak out when Israeli children and civilians were hurt by Hamas attacks. All he cares about is the safety of the Palestinians, and the only solution his narrow view can come up with is for Israel to stop their attacks. He doesn’t care about Israel’s right to defend itself or the suffering of Israeli citizens.

As for the UN, even ignoring the fact that the UN base their judgement on Palestinian testimony since most UN workers on the ground in Gaza are Palestinian themselves, I find the organization to be mostly biased against Israel and lacking in moral justification.
The UN human rights council is proud to have amongst its members countries like China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Angola – not exactly the best example for human rights protectors – yet has no problems issuing biased declarations in regards to human rights issues in Israel.

The UN has been criticized many times in the past for their bias against Israel.

Additional reading:

“How the Islamic states dominate the UN Human Rights Council”

http://www.iheu.org/node/2546

Macha

OK so if I accept your point of view that the UN is biased, would you accept that the IDF is biased?

marco murphy

munchester29 wrote: »

Simple – I consider the UN and John Ging to be biased, allow me to explain:

John Ging looks at this conflict from a very narrow perspective – people are suffering, people need to stop suffering.
I never heard him criticize Hamas rocket attacks, never heard him criticize suicide bombings, never heard him going against anything that is wrong in Gaza (killings of Palestinians by Palestinians, killings of gays, treatment of women, etc). I never heard him speak out when Israeli children and civilians were hurt by Hamas attacks. All he cares about is the safety of the Palestinians, and the only solution his narrow view can come up with is for Israel to stop their attacks. He doesn’t care about Israel’s right to defend itself or the suffering of Israeli citizens.

As for the UN, even ignoring the fact that the UN base their judgement on Palestinian testimony since most UN workers on the ground in Gaza are Palestinian themselves, I find the organization to be mostly biased against Israel and lacking in moral justification.
The UN human rights council is proud to have amongst its members countries like China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Angola – not exactly the best example for human rights protectors – yet has no problems issuing biased declarations in regards to human rights issues in Israel.

The UN has been criticized many times in the past for their bias against Israel.

Additional reading:

“How the Islamic states dominate the UN Human Rights Council”

http://www.iheu.org/node/2546

Lol I guess you have forgotten the history of attacks against UN buildings and installations.
Half of the stuff ''you never hear him condemn'' is totally irrelevant to this conflict. As far as I am aware, he hasn't been in a position to even witness the suffering of Israelis when it comes to Hamas rockets. And tell me, when was the last suicide bombing? People have been using ''suicide bombing'' argument for quite some time.

munchester29

taconnol wrote: »

munchester29, does it not say anything to you that the UN has condemned Israel and that John Ging has said that no where is safe in Gaza.

I commented about John Ging and the UN in my last post on this thread.

taconnol wrote: »

Do you really think that it's acceptable that an army blockades a people in, leaves them nowhere to go and starts using white phosporous?

As for WP – still no proof that Israel used these in an unlawful manner.

As for the rest – under certain circumstances, yes, it is acceptable.
These circumstances being – continuous terrorist attacks on a sovereign nation.
Israel has left Gaza, but is being attacked from there. Israel has no choice – it has a commitment to protect Israeli citizens, not a commitment to protect Palestinians.
The Palestinains should be protected by their own government – Hamas.
The only problem is Hamas only score points when civilians die.
Maybe its time to condemn the terrorist organization, not the democratic country fighting them?

taconnol wrote: »

Do you really believe the IDF when they trot out the same excuse that shots were fired, every time they hit a UN school etc - even when the UN refutes this? Why do you take the word of the IDF over everyone elses? I don't understand..

Yes. It’s called “fog of war”. Israeli tanks have fired on and killed Israeli soldiers by mistake also.
If it is possible that the Israeli army kills its own soldiers by mistake, then it is also possible that they hit a UN school by mistake.
It is also possible (and even makes sense) that what Israel is claiming is true – Hamas uses schools and UN facilities to launch attacks against Israel, hoping that more civilians get killed by Israeli response, to inflict the only damage they can on Israel – PR damage.

munchester29

Perestroika wrote: »

And tell me, when was the last suicide bombing? People have been using ''suicide bombing'' argument for quite some time.

The last one I recall is from 2008 in Dimona:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/951028.html

munchester29

taconnol wrote: »

OK so if I accept your point of view that the UN is biased, would you accept that the IDF is biased?

Sure, that has been my point - everyone in this conflict is biased, even some who are not supposed to be (UN, UNRWA)

concussion

munchester29 wrote: »

As for WP – still no proof that Israel used these in an unlawful manner.

"In some of the strikes in Gaza it's pretty clear that phosphorus was used," Herby told The Associated Press. "But it's not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it's being used in any other way."

That's a quote from the ICRC, carried by several newspapers in the last few days.