1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

paulaa

taconnol wrote: »

Unfortunately, it does have a factual basis. Jews have been one of the most persecuted peoples in history. Often used as scapegoats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_Affair or wiki the "Black death and Jews".), their involvement in the financial sector and subsequent wealth was also viewed suspiciously and often used against them.

I suppose part of the problem is when this (very justified) sense of victimisation is passed down to a new generation, that never personally experienced the persecution at the same intensity, it takes on an almost mythical nature and becomes a sort of communal mindset, a way of viewing the world and everything that happens in it. And as anyone knows, it is very difficult to get a victim to see themselves as anything but a victim, even when they are themselves guilty of wrongdoings.

Thanks again taconnol. Your last paragraph makes sense to me and would explain why some Jewish people still come out with the "I'm hated" line. It's a mindset I could never understand particularly when they had a homeland handed to them on a plate and have the protection of one of the world's superpowers.

Saying that they may now have a legitimate excuse for feeling like that after this fiasco in Gaza.

To get back to the point of this thread here's the first report from Amnesty International's visit to Gaza on Sat 17th.
http://livewire.amnesty.org/2009/01/19/we-had-arrived-in-gaza/#more-629

Also I wonder if there's any truth in this
"Israel and Egypt planning a round of ethnic cleansing"
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-and-egypt-planning-round-of.html

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Thanks again taconnol. Your last paragraph makes sense to me and would explain why some Jewish people still come out with the "I'm hated" line. It's a mindset I could never understand particularly when they had a homeland handed to them on a plate and the protection of one of the world's superpowers.

Saying that they may now have a legitimate excuse for feeling like that after this fiasco in Gaza.

To get back to the point of this thread here's the first report from Amnesty International's visit to Gaza on Sat 17th.
http://livewire.amnesty.org/2009/01/19/we-had-arrived-in-gaza/#more-629

Also I wonder if there's any truth in this
"Israel and Egypt planning a round of ethnic cleansing"
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-and-egypt-planning-round-of.html

That self proclaimed "An Anti-Zionist blog" post has zero truth to it. Some people will believe the worst of anything Israel does not matter what it is.

Egypt does not want the palestinians on its territory. Egypt renounced its claim to Gaza more than 20 years ago precisely because it does not want to be saddled with the palestinians any more.

regarding that blog theres a headline "Aryan Nations' leaders celebrate massacre's conclusion in Jerusalem" which puzzles me, why do they refer to them as "Aryan nations"?

I also found this rather offensive article from just over a week ago http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/01/herrenvolk-femmes-fatales.html referring to israeli female soldiers as herrenvolk, I think this is betraying the feelings of the blogger somewhat. either that or the fact that Israel is in favour of female equality (unlike most arab states) annoys the blogger somewhat.

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

Thank you taconnol. We can all read and inform ourselves on the facts of history , that's the easy part. What I wanted to know is why Jewish people think this way and if it has any basis in fact

Of course it has basis in fact. When you "read and inform yourself on the facts of history" you will see this. Start with Ireland and some excellent work by Prof Dermot Keogh from UCC. Eye-opening stuff.

lwellan dowd

Also I wonder if there's any truth in this
"Israel and Egypt planning a round of ethnic cleansing"
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-and-egypt-planning-round-of.html[/quote]


I doubt it.......Pure anti-semitic conjecture.

Hard to believe anything on these hate sites.

Nodin

paulaa wrote: »

It's a mindset I could never understand particularly when they had a homeland handed to them on a plate and the protection of one of the world's superpowers.

No basis in fact whatsoever. Israel was attacked immediately upon its foundation by the neighbouring Arab states and defeated them on their own. The Israeli-US alliance didn't begin until the late 60's/early 70's.
You really should read up on this subject, as its becoming embarrassing, and not a little offensive.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

That self proclaimed "An Anti-Zionist blog" post has zero truth to it. Some people will believe the worst of anything Israel does not matter what it is.

Egypt does not want the palestinians on its territory. Egypt renounced its claim to Gaza more than 20 years ago precisely because it does not want to be saddled with the palestinians any more.

Isn't there a difference between Judaism and Zionism ?
Are you saying that all Jewish people support the extremists
principles of Zionism ?
There are loads of "Jews Against Zionism" sites all over the web where ordinary Jews are trying to distance themselves from the Zionists

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Of course it has basis in fact. When you "read and inform yourself on the facts of history" you will see this. Start with Ireland and some excellent work by Prof Dermot Keogh from UCC. Eye-opening stuff.

So you couldn't answer me before but you can now :rolleyes:

paulaa

Nodin wrote: »

No basis in fact whatsoever. Israel was attacked immediately upon its foundation by the neighbouring Arab states and defeated them on their own. The Israeli-US alliance didn't begin until the late 60's/early 70's.
You really should read up on this subject, as its becoming embarrassing, and not a little offensive.

Are you deliberately misreading my posts ?
The belligerence of the pro-Israeli's on this thread is disturbing but not surprising.

paulaa

lwellan dowd wrote: »

Also I wonder if there's any truth in this
"Israel and Egypt planning a round of ethnic cleansing"
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-and-egypt-planning-round-of.html

I doubt it.......Pure anti-semitic conjecture.

Hard to believe anything on these hate sites.[/QUOTE]

I doubt that Egypt are interested tbh. BTW that's a Jewish blog, how could it be anti-semitic

Nodin

paulaa wrote: »

Are you deliberately misreading my posts ?
The belligerence of the pro-Israeli's on this thread is disturbing but not surprising.

Yes, thats me, Likud member no 40789.

I was quoting your post. You said they had a state "handed to them". Thats a distortion of the facts.

they had a homeland handed to them on a plate and the protection of one of the world's superpowers.

You said they had the protection of one of the worlds superpowers as if both events were simultaneous, when in fact one didn't happen in that fashion and the other didn't happen until well over 2 decades later....

paulaa

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, thats me, Likud member no 40789.

I was quoting your post. You said they had a state "handed to them". Thats a distortion of the facts.



You said they had the protection of one of the worlds superpowers as if both events were simultaneous, when in fact one didn't happen in that fashion and the other didn't happen until well over 2 decades later....

Sorry it should have read "have the protection of one of the world's superpowers" in my post, I've changed it now that you've pointed it out.

Do you have any comments to make about the Amnesty report ?

Macha

Nodin wrote: »

You said they had a state "handed to them". Thats a distortion of the facts.

Nodin, it was perhaps one of the easiest acquisitions of land for the creation of a nation-state ever witnessed in history.

Nodin wrote: »

You said they had the protection of one of the worlds superpowers as if both events were simultaneous, when in fact one didn't happen in that fashion and the other didn't happen until well over 2 decades later....

The US have been extremely sympathetic to the concept of a Jewish homeland from the early 1920s, with the US Congress passing a joint resolution on the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine in 1922. The US had established itself as a superpower in the wake of WWI, in particular with it's deciding intervention near the end and Wilson presiding over the creation of the Versailles Treaty.

Nodin

taconnol wrote: »

Nodin, it was perhaps one of the easiest acquisitions of land for the creation of a nation-state ever witnessed in history..

Considering they had to fight off Jordan, Egypt, Syria et al..no.

taconnol wrote: »

The US have been extremely sympathetic to the concept of a Jewish homeland from the early 1920s, with the US Congress passing a joint resolution on the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine in 1922. The US had established itself as a superpower in the wake of WWI, in particular with it's deciding intervention near the end and Wilson presiding over the creation of the Versailles Treaty.

The protection in the form of the Veto and the rest didn't come until the late 60's early 70's.

MaryCat!

A problem, that deep rooted, will always breed a cycle of hate from one side to another. Cases like that, a quick resolution is impossible

Nodin

paulaa wrote: »

Do you have any comments to make about the Amnesty report ?

It rather understates the level of destruction. At about 4.50 into this, theres footage from Rafa.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1184614595/bctid8477813001

Macha

Nodin wrote: »

Considering they had to fight off Jordan, Egypt, Syria et al..no.

That came after, Nodin. In terms of being given the land, yes they were just given the land. You don't really think paulaa was denying the early Israeli-Palestinian conflicts, do you?

Nodin wrote: »

The protection in the form of the Veto and the rest didn't come until the late 60's early 70's.

You're talking about one aspect of US support for Israel.

The US voted in favour for the UN Partition Plan for Palestine and recognised Israel as a nation immediately, actually 11 minutes, after it declared itself indepdendent in 1948. It also gave it considerable financial support in the 1950s. The huge surge in support came in the 1960s as you say, as the US and Russia waged a proxy cold war in the Middle East but that does not mean that Israel was not supported by the US prior to this era.

mackerel

This absolutely breaks my heart

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/17/robertson.israel.shocking.news.cnn

Matt Holck

paulaa wrote: »

Thank you taconnol. We can all read and inform ourselves on the facts of history , that's the easy part. What I wanted to know is why Jewish people think this way and if it has any basis in fact.

Sorry, I didn't dress it up in pretty language but as you all get to know me you will find I call a spade a spade and I have no hidden agenda.

Historical prosecution has left them with a chip on their shoulder

paulaa wrote: »

Sorry it should have read "have the protection of one of the world's superpowers" in my post, I've changed it now that you've pointed it out.

Do you have any comments to make about the Amnesty report?
http://livewire.amnesty.org/2009/01/19/we-had-arrived-in-gaza/#more-629

sounds like godzilli does not discriminate

Nodin

taconnol wrote: »

That came after, Nodin. In terms of being given the land, yes they were just given the land. You don't really think paulaa was denying the early Israeli-Palestinian conflicts, do you?.

It's frequently hard to understand what shes doing. And no, they were only given part of what is now Israel, the rest they took during the war, largely by expelling the Palestinians.

taconnol wrote: »

You're talking about one aspect of US support for Israel. .

Perhaps the most crucial and important one.

Macha

Nodin wrote: »

It's frequently hard to understand what shes doing. And no, they were only given part of what is now Israel, the rest they took during the war, largely by expelling the Palestinians.

It doesn't take away from the fact that a UN resolution gave them their original state. Their decision to wage war afterwards to increase their territory was not required in the original creation of the state.

You frequently choose to take her up the wrong way.

Nodin wrote: »

Perhaps the most crucial and important one.

That's open for debate but that debate does not impact on the fact that Israel has enjoyed US support since it's creation.

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

So you couldn't answer me before but you can now :rolleyes:

Whats that supposed to mean? Its not exactly hidden. If you're saying I'm retroactively hitting the search button then bollocks to that as its not something I do. I could have told you that face-to-face. I've got his books. I read them. So what? :rolleyes:

Nodin

taconnol wrote: »

Their decision to wage war afterwards to increase their territory was not required in the original creation of the state..

Israel didn't start the 1947/48 War....

Macha

Nodin wrote: »

Israel didn't start the 1947/48 War....

I wasn't talking about that war.

Serenity Now!

taconnol wrote: »

I wasn't talking about that war.

If you're referring to the Six Day War they didn't start that either.

Macha

Serenity Now! wrote: »

If you're referring to the Six Day War they didn't start that either.

It's funny because at that time, Israel saw the closing off of their borders as a casus belli, yet the people who defend the recent attack on Gaza fail to recognise the Gazan blockade as an act of war.

Hypocrisy of the highest order.

Look, I'm not trying to deny that Israel has been attacked by its neighbours. I'm simly pointing out that it has been the aggressor as well.

Serenity Now!

taconnol wrote: »

It's funny because at that time, Israel saw the closing off of their borders as a casus belli

They saw Egypt rallying Syria, Jordan and then in support Iraq and Lebanon to attack following a year of Nasser rhetoric and Syrian & Jordanian cross-border attacks.
Thats 1967 for you. Israel took out the majority of three aggressors' airforces on the 5th and then proceeded to defeat them on the ground and at sea. Two factors stopped Israel advancing any further into Syria (They got to within 15km of Damascus). Firstly, the resulting frontier would have been indefendable and secondly, the Cold War as the USSR stepped up its supply of arms and machinery to Egypt and especially Syria.
It wasn't a matter of 'trade' or borders but a matter of survival. Had Israel not struck, it would have been wiped as Nasser had threatened he would do.

TOMASJ

mackerel wrote: »

This absolutely breaks my heart

Have a look here http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=91b_1232307756 how that doctor was treated shortly afterwards, at a press conference by the Peace loving people of Israel.

paulaa

"Israel wants control of UN reconstruction effort.

Bethlehem – Ma’an – Israel is insisting that any money allocated to Gaza’s reconstruction not go to Hamas or its affiliates, and that the United Nations sends a detailed list of required equipment for approval before it enters the Strip.

According to diplomatic sources working at a Western office in Israel, the Israel is concerned that money may reach Hamas and is insisting on playing a large role and the surveillance of monetary inflow for reconstruction projects.

Israel is also studying the possibility of expanding a list of main materials considered for entering Gaza, demanding that the UN and other relief organizations provide information on anything headed toward Gaza, the same diplomatic sources said.

Israel is insisting that the UN and any other organization first obtain a permit before implementing pledges, as well as assurances that the UN will not participate directly with Hamas in Gaza’s reconstruction."
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=35123

The arrogance of these people is staggering !!!

Offy

paulaa wrote: »

"Israel wants control of UN reconstruction effort.

Bethlehem – Ma’an – Israel is insisting that any money allocated to Gaza’s reconstruction not go to Hamas or its affiliates, and that the United Nations sends a detailed list of required equipment for approval before it enters the Strip.

According to diplomatic sources working at a Western office in Israel, the Israel is concerned that money may reach Hamas and is insisting on playing a large role and the surveillance of monetary inflow for reconstruction projects.

Israel is also studying the possibility of expanding a list of main materials considered for entering Gaza, demanding that the UN and other relief organizations provide information on anything headed toward Gaza, the same diplomatic sources said.

Israel is insisting that the UN and any other organization first obtain a permit before implementing pledges, as well as assurances that the UN will not participate directly with Hamas in Gaza’s reconstruction."
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=35123

The arrogance of these people is staggering !!!

WOW Im speechless.

dresden8

paulaa wrote: »

The arrogance of these people is staggering !!!

Hardly. They have the most modern army in the world backed up by nuclear weapons and the support of the most powerful superpower the world has ever seen.

They can, have done, and continue to do anything they want.

Their arrogance is perfectly understandable.