1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Nodin

marcsignal wrote: »

Jeez ! that'd wanna be some tax break

Why? You've more odds of being struck by lightning than killed by Palestinian. They're armed, protected by the IDF, surrounded by buffer zones...

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Great post marcsignal. That is my take on it too but you explained it so much better.

The problem is it's not just the Palestinians they have treated badly and even their bought "friends" in the area are only on their side until the bribes dry up.

An example. Egypt's Hosni Mubarak is 80 years of age and while he has designated his son , Kamal, to be the next dictator, the Muslim Brotherhood, who have a very strong and growing presence in Egypt, have other ideas. They are not interested in the US or Israel's money. Up until now they have contented themselves with street demonstrations and tormenting the Coptic Christians but that will change imo.

Also on a more practical level, the Arab population growth is far ahead of the Israelis in the region. Immigration to Israel has slowed despite the enticements offered by the government to settle in Israel, so if this continues the Israel will become a stagnant, aging society which may or may not be protected by the US.
As you say, may God help the Israelis

You almost sound like you want Israel to be destroyed.

I don't think Egypt, Syria or Jordan would be stupid enough to attack Israel, they've been beaten too many times already.

Also the orthodox population of israel is keeping pace with the arab birth rate, also the druze population of israel has a high birth rate too and they're generally acknowledged as being the toughest troops in the idf.

marcsignal

Nodin wrote: »

Why? You've more odds of being struck by lightning than killed by Palestinian. They're armed, protected by the IDF, surrounded by buffer zones...

Good point.

still, Laguna Beach or the Promised Land ? I know where i'd be

Serenity Now!

marcsignal wrote: »

Having said that, I'm often surprised at the amount of Jewish Settlers that have American accents

A lot of young Scandinavians speak English with an American or English twang. Can be for many reasons with TV being one of them as well as having relatives from those countries or marrying into a family from overseas. A lot of the 'settlers' I've encountered speak with a whole range of accents.
There is also a lot of industry based there from overseas and this also will have an effect with its workforce.
My point is that there is no 'Israeli accent' as such because the country is mainly made up of people from so many countries originally.

marcsignal

Serenity Now! wrote: »

A lot of young Scandinavians speak English with an American or English twang. Can be for many reasons with TV being one of them as well as having relatives from those countries or marrying into a family from overseas. A lot of the 'settlers' I've encountered speak with a whole range of accents.
There is also a lot of industry based there from overseas and this also will have an effect with its workforce.
My point is that there is no 'Israeli accent' as such because the country is mainly made up of people from so many countries originally.

Come on Serenity Now! do you not think that's stretching it a bit ??

The content of these clips is not important, but informative nonetheless, particularlly the 2nd one.

here's an example of the American Israeli settlers i'm talking about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL9zKQBqIsI

and an example, although not a great one, of what I'd call an 'Israeli' accent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo

Serenity Now!

marcsignal wrote: »

Come on Serenity Now! do you not think that's stretching it a bit ??

Nope, mate.
I've lived in a fair few countries over the years so I'm just giving you my point of view based on what I experienced.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You almost sound like you want Israel to be destroyed.

I don't think Egypt, Syria or Jordan would be stupid enough to attack Israel, they've been beaten too many times already.

Also the orthodox population of israel is keeping pace with the arab birth rate, also the druze population of israel has a high birth rate too and they're generally acknowledged as being the toughest troops in the idf.

I have no wish to see anyone destroyed, particularly the innocent victims of war, greed and corruption. I'm not just talking about Israel here either.

It's not about today or tomorrow with regard to Egypt. Things change, population and rulers change and most importantly, loyalties change.
Look at the world now compared to even 30 years ago.

"If the non-Jewish population continues to outpace Jewish population growth, Israel could become an underdeveloped Third World country by 2020, a population expert predicts.

That’s the warning being sounded by University of Haifa's professor Arnon Sofer. He says there is now a demographic balance in the number of Jews and non-Jews in the region from the Jordan River to the coast and running the length of Israel from north to south.

"Today, there are 5 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews. The latter figure is composed of 4.5 million Arabs and the remainder non-Jewish immigrants, mainly from the former Soviet Union, and foreign workers," he told the Jerusalem Post.

By the year 2020, he forecasts about 6.4 million Jews, based on population growth and an average 50,000 Jewish immigrants a year. He expects the Arab population to reach around 8.5 million, in addition to 1 million non-Jews of other origins.

Sofer isn’t alone in his predictions. Noting that immigration has been the main source of population increases in Israel, demographic experts told Britain's Times that the Jewish population of Israel has been roughly constant at around 80 percent over the past 20 years, with the Arab population at just under 20 percent.

If immigration dries up, and it has slowed, the balance may shift with potentially dangerous consequences. During the 1990s, between 100,000 and 200,000 Jews left Russia for Israel each year. In 2001, fewer than 50,000 Jews went to Israel from the rest of the world combined."

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/10/18/181802.shtml

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

During the 1990s, between 100,000 and 200,000 Jews left Russia for Israel each year. In 2001, fewer than 50,000 Jews went to Israel from the rest of the world combined

It prospered and was in peace negotiations with Fatah during the 90s. I'll bet those figures spiked in the mid-90s after the first intifada finished. Jews in the former USSR states were also finally allowed to leave and move on too. This is something they were not permitted to do under the communist regimes.

In 2001, the second intifada was in full blood-spilling swing. Migration figures were bound to be hit.
If there is any optimism in the country due to peaceful reasons, for example, migration to Israel will climb again but not to the levels you point out.

A lot of scaremongering goes on in both sides. Israeli govt trying to attract more people to live there as citizens and Imams in the West Bank and Gaza trying to encourage their congregations to have more babies.

marcsignal

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Nope, mate.
I've lived in a fair few countries over the years so I'm just giving you my point of view based on what I experienced.

no no don't get me wrong, I also know a fair few people whose first language is not English, yet speak English with an English or American twang, like you said.

My point was about Jewish Americans that go to live in Israel, and there seems to be quite a few. I just find it remarkable that anyone would leave a comfortable and secure life in the US to go live in Israel, all considered, that's all.

Serenity Now!

marcsignal wrote: »

My point was about Jewish Americans that go to live in Israel, and there seems to be quite a few. I just find it remarkable that anyone would leave a comfortable and secure life in the US to go live in Israel, all considered, that's all.

Maybe an affinity to the country and region? I'd say there are many reasons that some up sticks to live for good. Others live there because their job needs them to. Others go there to study.

Mark Regev, the current main govt spokesman, left Australia to live there. Obviously he'd be of the hardline strand amongst migrants to Israel. My late cousin went there to teach (and married a Lebanese colleague in Tel Aviv). I know two folk there working on contracts with Intel and one over there working with various charities.
A mix.

marcsignal

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Maybe an affinity to the country and region? I'd say there are many reasons that some up sticks to live for good. Others live there because their job needs them to. Others go there to study.

Mark Regev, the current main govt spokesman, left Australia to live there. Obviously he'd be of the hardline strand amongst migrants to Israel. My late cousin went there to teach (and married a Lebanese colleague in Tel Aviv). I know two folk there working on contracts with Intel and one over there working with various charities.
A mix.

yeah i suppose, but were these people living in Israel 'proper', or in settlements ? Because I don't mind admitting, if i was working for Intel, or some other large corporation, and was offered a job opportunity in Israel, I think I'd be more than slightly unnerved at the prospect of living in a settlement, as opposed to the leafy suburbs of Tel Aviv.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

I have no wish to see anyone destroyed, particularly the innocent victims of war, greed and corruption. I'm not just talking about Israel here either.

It's not about today or tomorrow with regard to Egypt. Things change, population and rulers change and most importantly, loyalties change.
Look at the world now compared to even 30 years ago.

"If the non-Jewish population continues to outpace Jewish population growth, Israel could become an underdeveloped Third World country by 2020, a population expert predicts.

That’s the warning being sounded by University of Haifa's professor Arnon Sofer. He says there is now a demographic balance in the number of Jews and non-Jews in the region from the Jordan River to the coast and running the length of Israel from north to south.

"Today, there are 5 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews. The latter figure is composed of 4.5 million Arabs and the remainder non-Jewish immigrants, mainly from the former Soviet Union, and foreign workers," he told the Jerusalem Post.

By the year 2020, he forecasts about 6.4 million Jews, based on population growth and an average 50,000 Jewish immigrants a year. He expects the Arab population to reach around 8.5 million, in addition to 1 million non-Jews of other origins.

Sofer isn’t alone in his predictions. Noting that immigration has been the main source of population increases in Israel, demographic experts told Britain's Times that the Jewish population of Israel has been roughly constant at around 80 percent over the past 20 years, with the Arab population at just under 20 percent.

If immigration dries up, and it has slowed, the balance may shift with potentially dangerous consequences. During the 1990s, between 100,000 and 200,000 Jews left Russia for Israel each year. In 2001, fewer than 50,000 Jews went to Israel from the rest of the world combined."

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/10/18/181802.shtml

I get the vibe from you that you think Israel deserve to lose a war against its neighbours, however I don't know if you realise the ramifications of that, complete genocide of the israeli people, Israel will not let that happen.

I've bolded quite a crucial part of your "evidence" as there is an important slant to it. The geographic area quoted includes the West Bank and the Gaza Strip both of which are dominated by palestinian arabs. Israel proper includes approx 1.25 million arabs not all of which could be counted on to be anti-israel. Also Israel proper has a druze population which is staunchly pro-israel.

So your argument dosen't really stand up to scrutiny. Also regarding birthrates , based on the tone of your argument are you then putting forward a case that Israeli women should have as little right to control their reproductive rights as muslim palestinian women?

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I get the vibe from you that you think Israel deserve to lose a war against its neighbours, however I don't know if you realise the ramifications of that, complete genocide of the israeli people, Israel will not let that happen.

I've bolded quite a crucial part of your "evidence" as there is an important slant to it. The geographic area quoted includes the West Bank and the Gaza Strip both of which are dominated by palestinian arabs. Israel proper includes approx 1.25 million arabs not all of which could be counted on to be anti-israel. Also Israel proper has a druze population which is staunchly pro-israel.

So your argument dosen't really stand up to scrutiny. Also regarding birthrates , based on the tone of your argument are you then putting forward a case that Israeli women should have as little right to control their reproductive rights as muslim palestinian women?

I really wish that you would stop trying to read things into my posts that aren't there. Your "vibes" are about as reliable as Mystic Megs. As to the "tone" of my argument, well you could work on yours as you're coming across as quite aggressive.

I don't think Israel deserve to lose anything except what she's taken illegally from others, it's not a game. I think that Israel should learn to curb her aggression, start respecting other's human rights,start behaving like a civilised member of the international community. That means respecting International laws and agreements and abiding by those she has signed up to.
I know that's not going to happen as long as the US and the EU continue turn a blind eye when it suits them.

The actual point I was making was that Israel might not always have an easy ride (in terms of support) that she has enjoyed up until now and she is squandering the goodwill towards her by her actions, arrogance and intransigence. Look and learn from what was the USSR and the Great British Empire. Israel will never have peace as long as she acts like the playground bully and is one of, if not,the most disruptive states in the middle east.

As to your remark about the breeding habits of the Israeli v Palestinian women, well I wouldn't even dignify that with a reply.

If you don't agree with the figures in that piece I quoted take it up with Professor Arnon Sofer at the University of Haifa.

Here is a more recent study for 2007 from Wiki
Population growth rate

" * 1.8% (2007)[2]
* During the 1990s, the Jewish population growth rate was about 3% per year, as a result of massive immigration to Israel, primarily from the republics of the former Soviet Union. There is also a high population growth rate among certain Jewish groups, especially adherents of Haredi Judaism.

The growth rate of the Arab population in Israel is 2.5%, while the growth rate of the Jewish population in Israel is 1.7%. The growth rate of the both Jewish and Arab population is slowing down from 3.8% in 1999 to 2.5% in 2006 for Arab and 1.4% to 1.7% for Jew. The fastest growing segment of population remain to be Arab Muslim with the latest growth rate of 2.8% for 2007."

humberklog

paulaa wrote: »

I really wish that you would stop trying to read things into my posts that aren't there. Your "vibes" are about as reliable as Mystic Megs. As to the "tone" of my argument, well you could work on yours as you're coming across as quite aggressive.

BlasforRafa's not the only one to have been reading other 'things' into your posts. The problem may not be with the mis-interpretation of others but the mis-representation by yourself.

paulaa

humberklog wrote: »

BlasforRafa's not the only one to have been reading other 'things' into your posts. The problem may not be with the mis-interpretation of others but the mis-representation by yourself.

Perhaps you're right, although I see it more as that old ploy on forums everywhere of deliberate mis-representation by those on the opposite side of an argument.
Other's comprehension is not my problem and attributing "vibes" and "tones" to arguments is just a way of disingenuously scoring points.

IRISH RAIL

marcsignal wrote: »

yeah i suppose, but were these people living in Israel 'proper', or in settlements ? Because I don't mind admitting, if i was working for Intel, or some other large corporation, and was offered a job opportunity in Israel, I think I'd be more than slightly unnerved at the prospect of living in a settlement, as opposed to the leafy suburbs of Tel Aviv.

Theres people from all over the world come to Israel for Aliyah a lot of americans english australians, millionares and peasants
its what we believe to be our homeland nothing to do with economic climates also I dont think america to be a comfortable and secure life with the levels of crime Israel has one of the lowest crime levels in the world(excluding terrorist acts) there was a murderer caught early last year and it shocked the nation made headlines for weeks not like here where the victims are forgotten about the next day.
as for Israeli accents that second video was no where near as rough as a sabre would sound
heres Motti Gur, Dado Elazar,and Yitzak Rabin that should give you a good Idea of how the rest of the sabre`s speak

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=kcStgVF4Hs8&feature=channel_page

Matt Holck

Almost half Palestine's population is living on an income below the UN's own poverty threshold of $2 a day.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2253328.stm

note that blockades and infrastructure destruction has made their lot worse off than before

Nodin

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Theres people from all over the world come to Israel for Aliyah a lot of americans english australians, millionares and peasants
its what we believe to be our homeland nothing to do with economic climates also I dont think america to be a comfortable and secure life with the levels of crime

Many prefer Miami. Sun, sand, sea, real estate transactions without complications...

WxfrdJay

Suff wrote: »

155 killed as Israel launches air strikes in Gaza Strip

Over 155 people were killed today and God knows how many wounded in the Israeli air strikes on the Gaza Strip. As the Isaelies have stated its a retaliation for the Hamas rockets that killed an Israeli

If it wasn't the siege and blockade on Gaza thats killing the people, it's the rockets,...yet the world watches in silence.

Source: IrishTimes Online

"God knows"? Which god knows? The jewish one or the islamic one? And anyway, if either of them knew why didn't they do anything about it? Yunno, them being gods and all...

"God" - hilarious.

marcsignal

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

..........Israel has one of the lowest crime levels in the world(excluding terrorist acts) there was a murderer caught early last year and it shocked the nation made headlines for weeks not like here where the victims are forgotten about the next day.

yeah, i guess that's something that's easily overlooked, that apart from what we see on TV, life goes on as normal. I remember being in the US as a teenager in 1982 and was always asked, by Americans, what Ireland was like with all the bombs going off? They seemed to think the troubles was happening nationwide, and that there was a civil war situation going on.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

....as for Israeli accents that second video was no where near as rough as a sabre would sound
heres Motti Gur, Dado Elazar,and Yitzak Rabin that should give you a good Idea of how the rest of the sabre`s speak

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=kcStgVF4Hs8&feature=channel_page

good example, tbh, i didn't really know what to accurately search youtube under, but had a vague idea aurally, from the accents of Israeli friends.

Macha

Ah admission finally comes - after the damage has been done, of course:

Israel has admitted – after mounting pressure – that its troops may have used white phosphorus shells in contravention of international law, during its three-week offensive in the Gaza Strip.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

GuanYin

Wow!

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I imagine Israel will do alot of backtracking and, having done their damage, now try and walk away under the guise of US goodwill and new relations with Obama.

If only we had the guts to cut them off and punish them like they deserve

munchester29

taconnol wrote: »

Ah admission finally comes - after the damage has been done, of course:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

You gotta love the Guardian...

The Guardian headline:
"Israel admits troops may have used phosphorus shells in Gaza"

They forget to mention that Israel never denied the use of phosphorus shells in Gaza, and Israel claims that phosphorus shells were used in line with international law.

Also, the Guardian claims that this information comes from "Haaretz".
I have been reading on their site for some time now, and I never saw such a story where Israel admits using phosphorus shells illegaly.

Basically, the Guardian reports on an internal investigation carried by the IDF (as they usually do when they get blamed for something).
Israel hasn't really admitted to any illegal use of phosphorus shells. At least not yet.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

You gotta love the Guardian...

Yeah, its a great news paper .

munchester29 wrote: »

The Guardian headline:
"Israel admits troops may have used phosphorus shells in Gaza"

They forget to mention that Israel never denied the use of phosphorus shells in Gaza, and Israel claims that phosphorus shells were used in line with international law.

From the article:
follows weeks of fighting in which Israel either denied outright that it was using phosphorus-based weapons, or insisted that what weapons it was using "were in line with international law".

They did repeat there claims about there use being in line with International law and Israel did deny there use at some point as well.

munchester29 wrote: »

Also, the Guardian claims that this information comes from "Haaretz".
I have been reading on their site for some time now, and I never saw such a story where Israel admits using phosphorus shells illegaly.

This is pretty funny. We are to take your word over the Guardians? There is every possibility that you missed the article.

munchester29 wrote: »

Basically, the Guardian reports on an internal investigation carried by the IDF (as they usually do when they get blamed for something).
Israel hasn't really admitted to any illegal use of phosphorus shells. At least not yet.

The article say they admit they "may" have used them illegally.

munchester29

Seems now we have a few confirming sources to IDF claims that Hamas have used civilian and UN installations as staging grounds for attacks:


Al Arabiya Studio Used As Rocket Launching Site:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=629_1232404615



The infamous school incident:

“Witnesses, including Hanan Abu Khajib, 39, said that Hamas fired just outside the school compound, probably from the secluded courtyard of a house across the street, 25 yards from the school. Israeli return fire, some minutes later, also landed outside the school, along the southwest wall, killing two Hamas fighters. Nearly all the casualties were in the street outside the compound, with only three people wounded from shrapnel inside the walls.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/17/world/middleeast/17israel.html?pagewanted=1&th&emc=th&adxnnlx=1232559411-5nJYDZcXIswtedPrMvDomA

http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275343.html


A few others, but I feel lazy today...

Macha

And yet we have John Ging saying that there were no militants:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2009/jan/21/gaza-israelandthepalestinians

concussion

From the Guardian article

The use of phosphorus as an incendiary weapon as it now appears to have been used against Hamas fighters – as opposed to a smoke screen – is covered by the Convention of Certain Conventional Weapons to which Israel in not a signatory.[/quotel]

Indeed it is covered by the convention - you're allowed to use WP as an incediary against military targets. Seriously, after almost 4 weeks you'd think the media could grasp the scope of the 3 sentances of the convention which relate to incendiary weapons. :rolleyes:

munchester29 wrote: »

Seems now we have a few confirming sources to IDF claims that Hamas have used civilian and UN installations as staging grounds for attacks:

----

“Witnesses, including Hanan Abu Khajib, 39, said that Hamas fired just outside the school compound...

I posted the same about 10 days ago, no-body seemed to care....

Manic Moran

I would like to have seen the exact comments from the IDF as opposed to the Guardian's paraphrases. I note there are no quotes. Since the Guardian in previous reports makes the flat claim that WP use in urban areas against personnel is always unlawful, and the reality is that this position is incorrect, they may simply be taking an Israeli admission of WP use against personnel and jumping to their own conclusions of unlawfulness.

NTM

A Dub in Glasgo

Ah sure, what difference will it make. Israel are hardly going to made to be accountable for their actions, much to the delight of some.

Macha

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/israel-launches.html

This is another article on the same issue:

"Conditions in the Gaza Strip make it impossible to use in a legal sense," Sarit Michaeli, the group's communications director, tells Danger Room."If you fire it a Viet Cong fighters in a jungle, and you know there are no civilians in the area, fine. But you can't swing a cat in Gaza without hitting someone. There are 1.5 million Palestinians squeezed in there. How can you use such a weapon in a discriminating way?"

This is one of the most interesting paragraphs in the article and makes the strongest case for Israel's use of WP as in breach of the Geneva Convetion.