1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

munchester29

taconnol wrote: »

And yet we have John Ging saying that there were no militants:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2009/jan/21/gaza-israelandthepalestinians

From the article:

"On the allegation that Israeli troops came under fire from inside the school, Ging added:

"I have been reassured by my own staff that there were no militants in the schools. If anybody has evidence to the contrary, then let's bring it forward "

Considering his staff is 99% Palestinians, I'll use that famous pinch of salt when listening to John Ging and his claims.

In addition, I quoted the following:

“Witnesses, including Hanan Abu Khajib, 39, said that Hamas fired just outside the school compound, probably from the secluded courtyard of a house across the street, 25 yards from the school. Israeli return fire, some minutes later, also landed outside the school, along the southwest wall, killing two Hamas fighters. Nearly all the casualties were in the street outside the compound, with only three people wounded from shrapnel inside the walls.”

So everything happened outside the school.

Macha

munchester29 wrote: »

So everything happened outside the school.

Stop warping facts. 2 children were killed INSIDE the school. Missiles fell INSIDE the school.

munchester29

taconnol wrote: »

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/israel-launches.html

This is another article on the same issue:

This is one of the most interesting paragraphs in the article and makes the strongest case for Israel's use of WP as in breach of the Geneva Convetion.

Not really, since the commentator is a B’Tselem activist…

I think her words are summed up nicely in the article itself:

“Michaeli believes that the above picture -- and others taken by a B'Tselem investigator in Gaza -- show WP remnants, re-lighting.”

No proof yet that Israel’s use of WP was illegal.

munchester29

taconnol wrote: »

Stop warping facts. 2 children were killed INSIDE the school. Missiles fell INSIDE the school.

Not according to the NY Times.

Serenity Now!

taconnol wrote: »

This is one of the most interesting paragraphs in the article and makes the strongest case for Israel's use of WP as in breach of the Geneva Convetion.

IDF are as guilty as poo for breach of the convention. Usage of this agent is prohibited from civilian zones.

However are Hamas morally exempt from this favourite convention just by not signing up to it? Because they break a fair few of its points.
When they're finished their revenge killing spree on Fatah supporters, somebody should take the time to charge them as well with that old favourite term of the day 'war crimes'.

Macha

munchester29 wrote: »

Not really, since the commentator is a B’Tselem activist…

Hoh yes because belonging to a human rights organisation automatically means that whatever you say is totally biased.

And her argument about the difficulty in accepting Israel's assurances that they didn't mean to use WP as a weapon when it was clear that it's use in such a densly populated area would almost inevitably result in direct civilian casualities still stands.

munchester29 wrote: »

No proof yet that Israel’s use of WP was illegal.

Again, this can be refuted by the sheer population density of Gaza.


Serenity Now! - I wholeheartedly condemn Hamas and consider them to be a serious block in the road to peace in the Middle East as long as they continue to use violence. I see little difference between them and the Israeli government:

-both are democratically elected governments
-both consider violence to be acceptable
-both inflict violence on the other in a pointless cycle of war.
-both use civilian shields in times of war

An interesting difference:
-only Hamas is ostracised by the US and West as a terrorist organisation

IRISH RAIL

taconnol wrote: »

Stop warping facts. 2 children were killed INSIDE the school. Missiles fell INSIDE the school.

no one is warping facts except you
the fire came from outside the school the returned fire hit outside the school the people were killed by schrapnel and flying debris.
If a post is to make such a general statement please reasearch what really happened.

TOMASJ

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

no one is warping facts except you
the fire came from outside the school the returned fire hit outside the school the people were killed by schrapnel and flying debris.
If a post is to make such a general statement please reasearch what really happened.

Lets see what excuses the IDF can conjure up to justify the murder of these two little children and paralysing their little sister not with white phosphorus but by deliberately targeting and shooting three little -Toddlers- if this is not a war crime then I despair, the report is not from Press TV or Aljazeer but the BBC at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7843430.stm
How can AVITAL LEIBOVICH of the Israeli defence force stand in front of a camera and support these bandits which she leads.

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

Considering his staff is 99% Palestinians, I'll use that famous pinch of salt when listening to John Ging and his claims.

....while linking to a blog, an uncorroborated video and a series of anecdotes from the NYT as Gospel.

What would you call somebody who dismissed a report because the staff of someplace was 99% Jewish?

marcsignal

I think the decision to use WP was a blunder. The urban warfare scenario in gaza favoured the defenders. The whole place could be turned into a giant booby trap, and it's always very costly for an attacking infantry force.

I'd guess it wasn't used as a smokescreen, like the IDF claim, for that reason. It's far more effective under those conditions to flush the enemy out of defensive positions. I believe the decision to use it was on that basis, and using it in proximity to civilians is always going to be risky.

The IDF are a professional well trained force, that's why i'm surprised they took that risk, unless the commander who issued the order just didn't care of course, and if that's the case, whoever gave that order has to take responsiblity. I believe everything will come out in the wash in the end, and if it's decided that a war crime has been committed, I hope the IDF are big enough to admit it.

Manic Moran

Serenity Now! wrote: »

IDF are as guilty as poo for breach of the convention. Usage of this agent is prohibited from civilian zones.

Quote chapter and verse, please.

It's commonly stated, but never backed up. Probably because there is no such blanket prohibition. It's just been repeated often enough that people think it's true. Maybe it should be true, but that doesn't make it so.

NTM

paulaa

TOMASJ wrote: »

Lets see what excuses the IDF can conjure up to justify the murder of these two little children and paralysing their little sister not with white phosphorus but by deliberately targeting and shooting three little -Toddlers- if this is not a war crime then I despair, the report is not from Press TV or Aljazeer but the BBC at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7843430.stm
How can AVITAL LEIBOVICH of the Israeli defence force stand in front of a camera and support these bandits which she leads.

Because basically the likes of Leibovich, Olmert, Livni , their predecessors and their apologists see the Palestinians as sub-human, an annoyance standing in the way of their expansionist policies.

Here are just a few examples of what they really think

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

"The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.html?q=palestinians.html

Here are more children maimed for life if they survive

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/4279102/Bullets-in-the-brain-shrapnel-in-the-spine-the-terrible-injuries-suffered-by-children-of-Gaza.html

TOMASJ

paulaa wrote: »

Because basically the likes of Leibovich, Olmert, Livni , their predecessors and their apologists see the Palestinians as sub-human, an annoyance standing in the way of their expansionist policies.

Here are just a few examples of what they really think

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

"The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.html?q=palestinians.html

Those are unbelievable statements by any standards, but to have been uttered by those in authority makes them even more disgusting,
what kind of medieval mindset do these people have to spout this sort of garbage,
And to think that some would have you believe that this type hatred, only began when Hamas were elected by the Palestinians.

paulaa

TOMASJ wrote: »

Those are unbelievable statements by any standards, but to have been uttered by those in authority makes them even more disgusting,
what kind of medieval mindset do these people have to spout this sort of garbage,
And to think that some would have you believe that this type hatred, only began when Hamas were elected by the Palestinians.

Yes it has carried right through from the 1930s to the present, and this country is called "a democracy" :rolleyes:

Here are a few more

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
– David Ben-Gurion, May 1948," to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”
– Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
– David Ben Gurion, From a 1938 speech. !

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

blah blah blah

And I take it you couldn't find any anti-semitic/anti-israeli quotations from Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Achmedinijad etc to balance your rant?

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

And I take it you couldn't find any /anti-israeli quotations from Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Achmedinijad etc to balance your rant?

Are you saying these quotes are untrue ? How could they be anti-semitic when they are from your glorious leaders ?

I made a bet with myself tonight as to how long after I posted you would appear. You haven't disappointed

A Dub in Glasgo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

And I take it you couldn't find any anti-semitic/anti-israeli quotations from Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Achmedinijad etc to balance your rant?

Is that an attempt to refute the accuracy of the statements from various leaders of Israel? Do you agree with what they say?

quad_red

Anyone watching Unseen Gaza on Channel 4 hosted by John Snow?

Pretty grim viewing

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Are you saying these quotes are untrue ? How could they be anti-semitic when they are from your glorious leaders ?

I made a bet with myself tonight as to how long after I posted you would appear. You haven't disappointed

I couldn't care less if they're true or not. Anyone can pull out a bunch off quotes of the net.

Of course you wouldn't answer my question because it wouldn't even enter your head to check out what hamas/hezbollah/achmedinijad and others say about Israel because it wouldn't fit in with your slant.

BlaasForRafa

quad_red wrote: »

Anyone watching Unseen Gaza on Channel 4 hosted by John Snow?

Pretty grim viewing

Saw channel 4 news earlier, you might as well call channel 4 news the "We love Hamas news". Mark Regev basically told Jon Snow where to go...in the nicest possible terms of course.

sceptre

paulaa wrote: »

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
– David Ben-Gurion, May 1948," to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

That's a made-up quote and originally wasn't even made up to be from Ben-Gurion. I explained that earlier in the thread, go back and look (actually, sod it, here's a link). I don't have time to read the other quotes you've provided I'm afraid but if you got them all from the same place, they definitely didn't check them so it might be worth your while checking them before posting them as being real. Without reading them, I'd have doubts about the veracity of all of them based on the first one i noticed having being made up.

paulaa wrote: »

Are you saying these quotes are untrue ?

The only one I read is certainly untrue. Based on that I'd require a link to the original source for the rest for me to take them seriously.

TOMASJ

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Anyone can pull out a bunch off quotes of the net.

Of course you wouldn't answer my question because it wouldn't even enter your head to check out what hamas/hezbollah/achmedinijad and others say about Israel because it wouldn't fit in with your slant.

The difference between Palestinian groups, and the Israeli Government spokesmen responsible for those statements, are the Palestinians factions in Gaza and the West Bank,talk a lot of bluster are are not capable of carrying out the treats they make, whereas the the "Israelis IDF as we have just seen in Gaza" are more than capable of (practising what they preach) and have shown 400 of Gazas children the contempt they have for them.

quad_red

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Saw channel 4 news earlier, you might as well call channel 4 news the "We love Hamas news". Mark Regev basically told Jon Snow where to go...in the nicest possible terms of course.

So you didn't watch it. Your auto response is tiresome. You might have found it interesting. Certainly, the footage showing the scale and devastation inside Gaza is something you would not have seen. And the aim of the program, speaking to Reuters, the BBC, Channel 4, Sky news, Israeli journalists etc. about how the Israeli policy of stopping international journalists reporting on what was happening in Gaza posed some serious questions on the nature and effectiveness of covering it.

Then again, you do not care. It showed killed people in Gaza - lies! Pro Hamas bile. And all lies anyway.

Because anything which doesn't align to your view of what's happening is anti Israeli propaganda. You haven't even seen the program but it's dismissed out of hand.

You relegate the entire Channel 4 News division as 'we love Hamas news'? And whoop at Regev (a patsy whose inane utterings I take as seriously as a warbling Hamas spokesman) telling Jon Snow, an internationally respected journalist, 'where to go'?

Your mind is closed.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I couldn't care less if they're true or not. Anyone can pull out a bunch off quotes of the net.

Of course you wouldn't answer my question because it wouldn't even enter your head to check out what hamas/hezbollah/achmedinijad and others say about Israel because it wouldn't fit in with your slant.

Interesting that you don't care about the truth when it suits !

Why would I want to quote what Hammas etc say it's already been done umpteen times already on this thread ?

paulaa

sceptre wrote: »

That's a made-up quote and originally wasn't even made up to be from Ben-Gurion. I explained that earlier in the thread, go back and look (actually, sod it, here's a link). I don't have time to read the other quotes you've provided I'm afraid but if you got them all from the same place, they definitely didn't check them so it might be worth your while checking them before posting them as being real. Without reading them, I'd have doubts about the veracity of all of them based on the first one i noticed having being made up.


The only one I read is certainly untrue. Based on that I'd require a link to the original source for the rest for me to take them seriously.

Yeah, yeah, everyone lies except the Israelis.

paulaa

quad_red wrote: »

Anyone watching Unseen Gaza on Channel 4 hosted by John Snow?

Pretty grim viewing

Yes it's on Channel4 +1 now

sceptre

paulaa wrote: »

Yeah, yeah, everyone lies except the Israelis.

You're missing the point, which is more than a little disappointing given that I made it clearly.

And unfortunately for your post above, I've been very clear since my initial post on this thread and previous threads about the stupid debacle that is this shooting exercise between two peoples who should know better that I blame both the Israelis and the Palestinians for this. And for the last time that these two groups of wailing children decided to shoot stuff at each other.

Accusing me of being pro-Israeli (or pro-Palestinian or indeed pro- or anti- anything here except anti-silliness) doesn't do a jot for your case I'm afraid. You can choose to deliberately ignore that the quote was completely made up but you're far better off just basing your case on something real going forward. They're still both idiots with guns to me.

paulaa

sceptre wrote: »

You're missing the point, which is more than a little disappointing given that I made it clearly.

And unfortunately for your post above, I've been very clear since my initial post on this thread and previous threads about the stupid debacle that is this shooting exercise between two peoples who should know better that I blame both the Israelis and the Palestinians for this. And for the last time that these two groups of wailing children decided to shoot stuff at each other.

Accusing me of being pro-Israeli (or pro-Palestinian or indeed pro- or anti- anything here except anti-silliness) doesn't do a jot for your case I'm afraid. You can choose to deliberately ignore that the quote was completely made up but you're far better off just basing your case on something real going forward. They're still both idiots with guns to me.

I don't have a "case" . I'm giving my opinion of a war that is on every newspaper and TV station around the world atm.
I first saw that quote in the 60's and I have never seen any evidence yet to disprove it.

Sorry if I was a bit techy, there's a few aggressive posters that have put me on the defensive and I'm not familiar with the posters yet..
I would agree with you about the idiots with guns on both sides except it upsets me when innocents are being killed.

anonymous_joe

paulaa wrote: »

I don't have a "case" . I'm giving my opinion of a war that is on every newspaper and TV station around the world atm.
I first saw that quote in the 60's and I have never seen any evidence yet to disprove it.

Sorry if I was a bit techy, there's a few aggressive posters that have put me on the defensive and I'm not familiar with the posters yet..
I would agree with you about the idiots with guns on both sides except it upsets me when innocents are being killed.

I'd be terrified to see what the Gazans would do if they had the military capability of the Israelis...

What's happening in that part of the world is truly horrendous. At this stage, I can't see a solution unless one of the Muslim countries in the area takes the Palestinians in. But tbh, the Palestinians are more likely to convert to Judaism than their Islamic brethren are to let them in. It's not like charity is one of the pillars of their religion... :rolleyes:

sceptre

paulaa wrote: »

I don't have a "case" . I'm giving my opinion of a war that is on every newspaper and TV station around the world atm.
I first saw that quote in the 60's and I have never seen any evidence yet to disprove it.

As you can imagine, it's far harder to prove that something doesn't exist than to prove that something else exists. Which might sounds like a copout but it's not - nothing exists to substantiate the quote at all.

The two quotes that are trotted out more than any of the other quotes (and conveniently there's one on each side) are the Ben-Gurion quote and the one where Nasser purportedly wanted the Jews driven into the sea. Either is the most damning quote imaginable, depending on which side is being pushed so they're both used more than any others. They're both false.

The Ben-Gurion quote is invariably attributed to one of two sources - either Michael Zohar's "Ben-Gurion - A Biography" (purportedly said by David Ben-Gurion in 1948) or to the Koenig Memorandum (purportedly said by Yisrael Koenig in 1976). They're never credited as having come from anywhere else. The trouble is that the quote doesn't appear in either of those things and no-one's ever managed to substantiate it in any document, recording, or first-hand witness account that actually exists. Lazy academics have repeated it in papers, always crediting one of the above two documents and since then occasionally journalists in newspapers and unfortunately when something gets repeated enough, people often assume it's actually true.

Ditto with the "drive the Jews into the sea"[1] quote, attributed to Nasser. Made up. Christopher Mayhew even offered a £15,000 reward in 1973 to anyone who could substantiate the quote. A guy called Warren Bergstrom claimed he could but couldn't, Mayhew wouldn't pay him for false information and in the resulting UK court case, Bergstrom admitted that he'd searched but couldn't find anything to substantiate the quote, nor could he find a single responsible Arab leader that had made any comment of a genocidal nature. Again, lazy academics have repeated it in papers (as have journalists in newsprint since), and unfortunately when something gets repeated enough, people often assume it's actually true.

The propaganda war of manufactured quotes comes from both sides. While the first casualty of war is the truth, it also takes quite a few stab wounds later.


[1]Oddly enough, there was an article written in 2005 by a guy called William Martin which said that the phrase "drive the jews into the sea" was originally said by, oddly enough considering the other quote under question, David Ben-Gurion rather than Nasser, in a speech in the Knesset on October 11 1961. However, I've had both a Palestinian friend and Israeli friend, both of whom are Hebrew-fluent, go through the records for that day and a few days before and after and they can't find the original source he claimed to be quoting. No-one ever expects anyone to go to the trouble of checking, that's the thing. I go to the trouble of checking, that's why I'm a troublecausing tyke.

paulaa wrote: »

Sorry if I was a bit techy

Par for the course. It's the reason why I usually try to stay away from topics involving Palestine, abortion and a number of other topics that automatically have polarised views from the start - mine are less polarised, the topics rarely stay in the realm of rational (I've seen far less rational discussions than this one, even such as it is at times) and there's far too much plausible but questionable information provided by even those who mean well (that's not meant to be condescending by the way, I'm speaking generally).

I would agree with you about the idiots with guns on both sides except it upsets me when innocents are being killed.

As those innocents tend to lie on both sides of the divide, I find it as easy to blame the Israelis for creating the conditions for the Palestinian suicide bombings or badly aimed missiles as I do the Palestinians for creating the conditions for IDF shooting them on their stairs or questionably aimed air bombings. Innocence lies on both sides as much as guilt. It seems fairer to me to be able to say "both of you caused this ****" based on what actually caused it rather than just blaming the guy who's holding the bomb, gun or missile on each particular occasion.


Anyhoo, you can all carry on again without me for a while...