1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Matt Holck

I thought I'd blame it on the guy holding the money

Ping Chow Chi

anonymous_joe wrote: »

But tbh, the Palestinians are more likely to convert to Judaism than their Islamic brethren are to let them in. It's not like charity is one of the pillars of their religion... :rolleyes:

just to point out that not all palestinians are muslim, there are some Christians as well.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I couldn't care less if they're true or not. Anyone can pull out a bunch off quotes of the net.

Of course you wouldn't answer my question because it wouldn't even enter your head to check out what hamas/hezbollah/achmedinijad and others say about Israel because it wouldn't fit in with your slant.

It really doesn't matter what "hamas/hezbollah/achmedinijad" say, as that in now way ameliorates what Israel does. Theres no excuse for colonial adventuring and discrimination along religous or ethnic lines. The fact that Iran does or says (a) is no justification for Israel acting in a similar fashion.

I see your sig is here to win friends and influence people.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

What's happening in that part of the world is truly horrendous. At this stage, I can't see a solution unless one of the Muslim countries in the area takes the Palestinians in. But tbh, the Palestinians are more likely to convert to Judaism than their Islamic brethren are to let them in. It's not like charity is one of the pillars of their religion... :rolleyes:

Why should the Palestinians have to leave there ancestral home land? They have as much right to be there as the Zionists.

Also, they don't want to leave. The want to stay in there homes and have every right to do just that.

Macha

sceptre wrote: »

As those innocents tend to lie on both sides of the divide, I find it as easy to blame the Israelis for creating the conditions for the Palestinian suicide bombings or badly aimed missiles as I do the Palestinians for creating the conditions for IDF shooting them on their stairs or questionably aimed air bombings. Innocence lies on both sides as much as guilt. It seems fairer to me to be able to say "both of you caused this ****" based on what actually caused it rather than just blaming the guy who's holding the bomb, gun or missile on each particular occasion.

I agree with this paragraph, however as the original title of the post suggests, there are many thousands more innocents being killed on one side than the other.

It seriously begs the question about the value of a Palestinian life as compared to the value of an Israeli life.

munchester29

taconnol wrote: »

I agree with this paragraph, however as the original title of the post suggests, there are many thousands more innocents being killed on one side than the other.

It seriously begs the question about the value of a Palestinian life as compared to the value of an Israeli life.

I would say that the value of Israeli life in the eyes of the Israeli government is much higher than the value of Palestinian lives is for Hamas.

That, and the capability difference is what's responsible for one side suffering much more casualties.

Macha

munchester29 wrote: »

I would say that the value of Israeli life in the eyes of the Israeli government is much higher than the value of Palestinian lives is for Hamas.

I wouldn't agree.

munchester29 wrote: »

That, and the capability difference is what's responsible for one side suffering much more casualties.

With capability comes responsibility.

anonymous_joe

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

just to point out that not all palestinians are muslim, there are some Christians as well.

Ah yeah I know, but it's a predominantly Muslim country.

wes wrote: »

Why should the Palestinians have to leave there ancestral home land? They have as much right to be there as the Zionists.

Also, they don't want to leave. The want to stay in there homes and have every right to do just that.

Both have equal rights to the land, or none at all.

Why would they want to leave? Quality of life? Beats an overcrowded refugee camp with no chance of a proper life? Things like that...?

I'd rather not live in refugee camps if I was Palestinian. And iirc, doesn't Palestine have one of if not the highest birth rate in the world? Indicating that population overcrowding will increase even more.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I'd rather not live in refugee camps if I was Palestinian. And iirc, doesn't Palestine have one of if not the highest birth rate in the world? Indicating that population overcrowding will increase even more.

People are stubborn and will refuse to leave there homes. I see no reason why the Palestinians should do so.

Also, who exactly will take them in? They have no where else to go, even if they wanted to.

Matt Holck

I understand the land can't support the population

maybe they need banks of solar cells to be energy sufficient



http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=289


__________________

No Capes (The incredibles in hindi)

paulaa

sceptre wrote: »

As you can imagine, it's far harder to prove that something doesn't exist than to prove that something else exists. Which might sounds like a copout but it's not - nothing exists to substantiate the quote at all.

The two quotes that are trotted out more than any of the other quotes (and conveniently there's one on each side) are the Ben-Gurion quote and the one where Nasser purportedly wanted the Jews driven into the sea. Either is the most damning quote imaginable, depending on which side is being pushed so they're both used more than any others. They're both false.

The Ben-Gurion quote is invariably attributed to one of two sources - either Michael Zohar's "Ben-Gurion - A Biography" (purportedly said by David Ben-Gurion in 1948) or to the Koenig Memorandum (purportedly said by Yisrael Koenig in 1976). They're never credited as having come from anywhere else. The trouble is that the quote doesn't appear in either of those things and no-one's ever managed to substantiate it in any document, recording, or first-hand witness account that actually exists. Lazy academics have repeated it in papers, always crediting one of the above two documents and since then occasionally journalists in newspapers and unfortunately when something gets repeated enough, people often assume it's actually true.

Ditto with the "drive the Jews into the sea"[1] quote, attributed to Nasser. Made up. Christopher Mayhew even offered a £15,000 reward in 1973 to anyone who could substantiate the quote. A guy called Warren Bergstrom claimed he could but couldn't, Mayhew wouldn't pay him for false information and in the resulting UK court case, Bergstrom admitted that he'd searched but couldn't find anything to substantiate the quote, nor could he find a single responsible Arab leader that had made any comment of a genocidal nature. Again, lazy academics have repeated it in papers (as have journalists in newsprint since), and unfortunately when something gets repeated enough, people often assume it's actually true.

The propaganda war of manufactured quotes comes from both sides. While the first casualty of war is the truth, it also takes quite a few stab wounds later.


[1]Oddly enough, there was an article written in 2005 by a guy called William Martin which said that the phrase "drive the jews into the sea" was originally said by, oddly enough considering the other quote under question, David Ben-Gurion rather than Nasser, in a speech in the Knesset on October 11 1961. However, I've had both a Palestinian friend and Israeli friend, both of whom are Hebrew-fluent, go through the records for that day and a few days before and after and they can't find the original source he claimed to be quoting. No-one ever expects anyone to go to the trouble of checking, that's the thing. I go to the trouble of checking, that's why I'm a troublecausing tyke.


Par for the course. It's the reason why I usually try to stay away from topics involving Palestine, abortion and a number of other topics that automatically have polarised views from the start - mine are less polarised, the topics rarely stay in the realm of rational (I've seen far less rational discussions than this one, even such as it is at times) and there's far too much plausible but questionable information provided by even those who mean well (that's not meant to be condescending by the way, I'm speaking generally).



As those innocents tend to lie on both sides of the divide, I find it as easy to blame the Israelis for creating the conditions for the Palestinian suicide bombings or badly aimed missiles as I do the Palestinians for creating the conditions for IDF shooting them on their stairs or questionably aimed air bombings. Innocence lies on both sides as much as guilt. It seems fairer to me to be able to say "both of you caused this ****" based on what actually caused it rather than just blaming the guy who's holding the bomb, gun or missile on each particular occasion.


Anyhoo, you can all carry on again without me for a while...

Thanks for the reply. As I said, I first heard that quote in the 60's. A section of my Father's family are Jewish and there was always a lot of debate about Israel at family gatherings. I don't know if it was from a newspaper report or a book at the time but it stuck in my memory. As it's not verifiable now there's nothing more to say about it.

However the more recent quotes are, and are every bit as bad. They show that the Israeli leaders think that the Palestinians are an inferior sub-species and can be treated however the Israelis choose. Also it's very enlightening to read the reader's comments on Jewish media sites like Haaretz where the tone is much the same.
Example: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/934752.html

paulaa

munchester29 wrote: »

I would say that the value of Israeli life in the eyes of the Israeli government is much higher than the value of Palestinian lives is for Hamas.

That, and the capability difference is what's responsible for one side suffering much more casualties.

I would question that bolded bit. If the Israeli regime had any thought for their own people they could have stopped this aggression decades ago, but it's not about "safety of our citizens" now is it. It's about grabbing as much land as they can and anyone who stand in the way are bulldozed out of the way with their shiny new Cats from the US.

If they had stuck to agreements they made with regard to settlements, boundaries etc, treated their neighbours with respect instead of either forcibly removing them from land they had lived on for hundreds of years or ethnic cleansing and bombing the cr*p out of them we wouldn't be having this debate now.

Force and lies might win them short-term gains but in the long run they will be the losers imo

munchester29

paulaa wrote: »

I would question that bolded bit. If the Israeli regime had any thought for their own people they could have stopped this aggression decades ago, but it's not about "safety of our citizens" now is it. It's about grabbing as much land as they can and anyone who stand in the way are bulldozed out of the way with their shiny new Cats from the US.

Israel hasn't "grabbed land" in years. In fact, Israel left Gaza and uprooted several Israeli settlements and thousands of Israelis in the process.
The only result was increased attacks by the Palestinians.
The problem with this conflict is simple – the Palestinians (at least while being led by Hamas) will only accept one outcome – an Israel empty of Jews.
Their charter is very clear, their speeches are very clear, and their actions speak louder than words. Maybe it’s time to believe that what Hamas say & do points directly to what Hamas is – a terrorist organization.

paulaa wrote: »

If they had stuck to agreements they made with regard to settlements, boundaries etc, treated their neighbours with respect instead of either forcibly removing them from land they had lived on for hundreds of years or ethnic cleansing and bombing the cr*p out of them we wouldn't be having this debate now.

Force and lies might win them short-term gains but in the long run they will be the losers imo

The “Ethnic cleansing“ propaganda is a bit old by now. Also, what agreements are you referring to?

quad_red

munchester29 wrote: »

The problem with this conflict is simple – the Palestinians (at least while being led by Hamas) will only accept one outcome – an Israel empty of Jews.

Do you genuinely believe that? I suppose given your proclivities, an issue like the right of return isn't really an issue per se. It's just silly irrelevance to Israel.

Macha

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Both have equal rights to the land, or none at all.

That is seriously open for debate. Interestingly, land in Uganda was considered as a potential "homeland" for the Jews prior to at the beginning of the 20th century. Seems they weren't so bothered on where they were, just in having land full stop.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/Uganda.html

I mean, if the Europeans and Americans felt so awful about the whole thing, why not give them some land in Europe or America? Pffff...no they dumped them on other people's land.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Why would they want to leave? Quality of life? Beats an overcrowded refugee camp with no chance of a proper life? Things like that...?

These people would see leaving as a defeat, as giving into Israel.

munchester29 wrote: »

Israel hasn't "grabbed land" in years. In fact, Israel left Gaza and uprooted several Israeli settlements and thousands of Israelis in the process.

8,000 Israeli illegal settlers were pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and 12,000 entered the West Bank. THe illegal settlements in the West Bank are a testament to the moral bankruptcy of Israel.

And what about the wall? Built on their own land? Fat chance - it was built on Palestinian land and was another blatantly obvious land grab.

munchester29 wrote: »

The problem with this conflict is simple – the Palestinians (at least while being led by Hamas) will only accept one outcome – an Israel empty of Jews.

That is not true. Hamas has accepted a two-state solution:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html

munchester29 wrote: »

Their charter is very clear, their speeches are very clear, and their actions speak louder than words. Maybe it’s time to believe that what Hamas say & do points directly to what Hamas is – a terrorist organization.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. I have no problem accepting that. But by the same definition, so is the Israeli government. Do you accept this?

paulaa

munchester29 wrote: »

Israel hasn't "grabbed land" in years. In fact, Israel left Gaza and uprooted several Israeli settlements and thousands of Israelis in the process.
The only result was increased attacks by the Palestinians.
The problem with this conflict is simple – the Palestinians (at least while being led by Hamas) will only accept one outcome – an Israel empty of Jews.
Their charter is very clear, their speeches are very clear, and their actions speak louder than words. Maybe it’s time to believe that what Hamas say & do points directly to what Hamas is – a terrorist organization.


The “Ethnic cleansing“ propaganda is a bit old by now. Also, what agreements are you referring to?

You have obviously not been keeping yourself informed as to what is happening on the ground in Israel.
The "withdrawal from Gaza" story is a spurious, misleading bit of propaganda, firstly because the settlers were in Gaza illegally. 8000 were moved from Gaza and 12,000 were then planted in the West Bank.
From wiki
"# In 2007 Israel decided to build 300 more Israeli homes in the Har Homa settlement in Shepherd's Field near Bethlehem, a move that has been condemned by both the United States and the European Union. [11]
# In early 2008, Israel promised to engage in settlement expansion in the West Bank. US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, stated that such expansion should stop and was inconsistent with 'road map' obligations."

And more,Barak approved settlement expansion despite Road Map
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1037270.html

The "blind eye" habit of Israel's supporters is also getting a bit tiresome.

Take a look at this, a view from the inside
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

paulaa

To those who say that Israel wants peace



"Key Sharon advisor: "disengagement" aims to stop Palestinian state By Israel Insider staff and partners October 6, 2004 In a stunning admission, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser said that the purpose of the Israeli government's policy was to supend diplomatic moves to establish a Palestinian state. "The significance of the 'disengagement' plan is the freezing of the peace process," Dov Weissglas told Haaretz.

Weissglas, an initiator of the plan, explained that the deep freeze would prevent implementation of the "Road Map" backed by the Quartet of the United States, Russia, EU and UN: "when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."

"The disengagement is actually formaldehyde," he said. "It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

Asked by Haaretz's Ari Shavit why the disengagement plan had been hatched, Weisglass replied: "Because in the fall of 2003 we understood that everything was stuck. And although by the way the Americans read the situation, the blame fell on the Palestinians, not on us, Arik [Sharon] grasped that this state of affairs could not last, that they wouldn't leave us alone, wouldn't get off our case. Time was not on our side. There was international erosion, internal erosion. Domestically, in the meantime, everything was collapsing. The economy was stagnant, and the Geneva Initiative had gained broad support. And then we were hit with the letters of officers and letters of pilots and letters of commandos [refusing to serve in the territories]. These were not weird kids with green ponytails and a ring in their nose with a strong odor of grass. These were people like Spector's group [Yiftah Spector, a renowned Air Force pilot who signed the pilot's letter]. Really our finest young people."

Weisglass trumpets that the main achievement of the Gaza plan was the freezing of the peace process in a "legitimate manner."

"That is exactly what happened," he said. "You know, the term 'peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... [W]hat I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did."

Sharon, he said, could also argue "honestly" that the disengagement plan was "a serious move because of which, out of 240,000 settlers, 190,000 will not be moved from their place."

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/4222.htm

concussion

Interesting article from independent.ie
Hamas 'exaggerated the death toll in Gaza'

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/hamas-exaggerated-the-death-toll-in-gaza-1611632.html

A doctor at the main Shifa hospital was reported as having said: "It's possible that the death toll in Gaza was 500 or 600 at the most, mainly youths aged 17 to 23 who were enlisted by Hamas, who sent them to their deaths."

paulaa

concussion wrote: »

Interesting article from independent.ie
Hamas 'exaggerated the death toll in Gaza'

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/hamas-exaggerated-the-death-toll-in-gaza-1611632.html

I was reading this on another forum yesterday.
Seemingly it was in the Daily Telegraph, who got it from an article supposidly written by a Jewish Israeli in an Italian newspaper/ magazine.

I believe if the IDF had killed that many Hammas militants we would have heard it shouted from the rooftops. The Hasbara gang would have been spamming every forum and newsgroup with it's triumph.

BlaasForRafa

concussion wrote: »

Interesting article from independent.ie
Hamas 'exaggerated the death toll in Gaza'

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/hamas-exaggerated-the-death-toll-in-gaza-1611632.html

It dosen't surprise me, the palestinians did exactly the same thing in jenin.

A Dub in Glasgo

concussion wrote: »

Interesting article from independent.ie

Why is it interesting?

The Indo are only regurgitating another newspaper article which apparently regurgitates a different newspaper article from some anonymous source. Why is that news? It reminds of those bloggers who think referring to other bloggers is news!

A Dub in Glasgo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

he palestinians did exactly the same thing in jenin.

Show me

BlaasForRafa

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Show me

Research it yourself, its pretty damn easy to find.

A Dub in Glasgo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Research it yourself, its pretty damn easy to find.

I take this to mean... 'How dare you ask me to back up what I say, research yourself if you are so interested'

Large bucket of manure springs to mind

BlaasForRafa

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I take this to mean... 'How dare you ask me to back up what I say, research yourself if you are so interested'

Large bucket of manure springs to mind

Wrong. It means I find you rude and lazy. I already posted this and links earlier in the thread.

http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/index.html

56. Fifty-two Palestinian deaths had been confirmed by the hospital in Jenin by the end of May 2002. IDF also place the death toll at approximately 52. A senior Palestinian Authority official alleged in mid-April that some 500 were killed, a figure that has not been substantiated in the light of the evidence that has emerged.

57. It is impossible to determine with precision how many civilians were among the Palestinian dead. The Government of Israel estimated during the incursion that there were "only dozens killed in Jenin … and the vast majority of them bore arms and fired upon [IDF] forces". Israeli officials informed United Nations personnel that they believed that, of the 52 dead, 38 were armed men and 14 were civilians. The Palestinian Authority has acknowledged that combatants were among the dead, and has named some of them, but has placed no precise estimates on the breakdown. Human rights organizations put the civilian toll closer to 20 - Human Rights Watch documented 22 civilians among the 52 dead, while Physicians for Human Rights noted that "children under the age of 15 years, women and men over the age of 50 years accounted for nearly 38 per cent of all reported fatalities".

sceptre

While it isn't necessary to provide supporting links to absolutely everything, generally a request for such supporting information is reasonable. The request above was reasonable. If a link had been provided earlier in the thread, it would be reasonable to refer to its existence within the thread, or ideally to link to it (the thread now runs to almost 3000 posts). The Politics forum exists to facilitate discussion, not to win one over on a fellow poster.

From the Politics Guidelines:

When offering fact, please offer relevant linkage, or at least source. Simply saying "a quick search on google...." is often, but not always, enough. If you do not do this upon posting, then please be willing to do so on request.

A Dub in Glasgo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/index.html

Thank you for the link

concussion

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Why is it interesting?

The Indo are only regurgitating another newspaper article which apparently regurgitates a different newspaper article from some anonymous source. Why is that news? It reminds of those bloggers who think referring to other bloggers is news!

It's interesting because allegedly the casualtes are half of what have been previously reported. It also alleges that the majority of those killed were militants. Until it's independantly verified we don't know for sure but it certainly throws doubts on the claims that Israels attacks were disproportionate.

This 'anonymous source' is an Italian journalist and his article first appeared in the Italian paper Corriere Della Sera. The autotranslation of original article is here
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corriere.it%2Festeri%2F09_gennaio_21%2Fdenuncia_hamas_cremonesi_ac41c6f4-e802-11dd-833f-00144f02aabc.shtml&sl=it&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

The English version is here
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292938156&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

Cremonesi interviewed Gazans who echoed Israel's insistence of how Hamas gunmen used civilians as human shields. One Gazan recalled civilians in Gaza shouting at Hamas and Islamic Jihad men, "Go away, go away from here! Do you want the Israelis to kill us all? Do you want our children to die under their bombs? Take your guns and missiles with you.

Other Palestinians told Cremonesi of Hamas operatives donning paramedic uniforms and commandeering ambulances. A woman identified as Um Abdullah, 48, spoke of Hamas using UN buildings as launch pads for rockets

How is this not news??

paulaa

It's not news because it's more propaganda.
Save the Children, the Red Cross and various agencies along with UNRWA have all confirmed that over 400 children alone have died in Gaza.

To say otherwise is like denying that the other Holocaust never happened, and we don't like people who do that , do we.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

It's not news because it's more propaganda.
Save the Children, the Red Cross and various agencies along with UNRWA have all confirmed that over 400 children alone have died in Gaza.

To say otherwise is like denying that the other Holocaust never happened, and we don't like people who do that , do we.

The figures that have been posted already come from agencies that have significant palestinian presence in them. Evidence has already been posted of palestinians lying about casualty figures in previous incidents so until there is a proper independant un enquiry the figures cannot be trusted.

There is mountains of evidence for casualty figures in the holocaust from the germans themselves so trying to bring that in is a complete red herring.