1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The figures that have been posted already come from agencies that have significant palestinian presence in them. Evidence has already been posted of palestinians lying about casualty figures in previous incidents so until there is a proper independant un enquiry the figures cannot be trusted.

There is mountains of evidence for casualty figures in the holocaust from the germans themselves so trying to bring that in is a complete red herring.

You can deny it all you like but There is miles of footage available to belie your denial. I have seen interviews with French, American, Spanish, British and Australian aid workers who are in Gaza since the beginning of the "war".
Are you saying they are all lying too ?

I'll tell you who is lying, Israel and it's apologists.
For example on WP being used, first it was, No, we never used it.
Then it was, Well Nato and the US use it.
Then it was, Yes but we only use it as flares.
Now we have, 20 shell were fired by reservists
Now we have, We are conducting our own investigation.

Who can believe a word that comes from the Israeli politburo.

concussion

paulaa wrote: »

It's not news because it's more propaganda.
Save the Children, the Red Cross and various agencies along with UNRWA have all confirmed that over 400 children alone have died in Gaza.

To say otherwise is like denying that the other Holocaust never happened, and we don't like people who do that , do we.

All those agencies get their figures from the same place - the Hamas Health Ministry. Every figure coming out of Gaza has one common source.

International organizations, such as the United Nations and the Red Cross, said they had relied on the Palestinians for their own death counts, given that the verification process is cumbersome and could involve cross-checking records at the hospitals or the morgues as well as on-the-scene investigation at the site of the IDF attacks

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292939271&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

International agencies do not dispute the Palestinian death toll, though no outside assessment has been completed. "The figures are good enough for us to quote at the moment but we clearly state where they come from," said Anne-Sophie Bonefield of the International Committee of the Red Cross. "We will for sure have to carry out independent verification."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4317210/Israel-seizes-on-claims-Gaza-death-toll-has-been-exaggerated.html


For weeks people have been demanding that the international press be allowed into Gaza. Now look what's happened - those pesky journalists have disagreed with the Health Ministry of a terrorist organisation. Propaganda of the highest order!!

paulaa

The Jerusalem Post is not an unbiased source. In my other post I mentioned the people I saw interviewed who were working on the ground in Gaza. I would believe their accounts and estimates.

I would be truly delighted if the final figures were lower for civilian deaths but nothing excuses the devastation and wanton destruction that the IDF wreaked like thugs on crack all over Gaza.

Israel is completely out of control and needs to be reined in before it starts a bigger war.

concussion

paulaa wrote: »

The Jerusalem Post is not an unbiased source. In my other post I mentioned the people I saw interviewed who were working on the ground in Gaza. I would believe their accounts and estimates.

I would be truly delighted if the final figures were lower for civilian deaths but nothing excuses the devastation and wanton destruction that the IDF wreaked like thugs on crack all over Gaza.

Israel is completely out of control and needs to be reined in before it starts a bigger war.

Whether the JP is biased has no bearing, it's saying the exact same thing as the Red Cross - no-one has completed any independant count as of yet.

International agencies do not dispute the Palestinian death toll, though no outside assessment has been completed. "The figures are good enough for us to quote at the moment but we clearly state where they come from," said Anne-Sophie Bonefield of the International Committee of the Red Cross. "We will for sure have to carry out independent verification."

The bottom line is no-one knows the true figure but to discount this journalist out of hand and call it propaganda is ridiculous. You can go on and say people in Gaza have said X, and there's miles of footage of Y but it doesn't proove anything but that people died.

paulaa

concussion wrote: »

Whether the JP is biased has no bearing, it's saying the exact same thing as the Red Cross - no-one has completed any independant count as of yet.


The bottom line is no-one knows the true figure but to discount this journalist out of hand and call it propaganda is ridiculous. You can go on and say people in Gaza have said X, and there's miles of footage of Y but it doesn't proove anything but that people died.

So maybe we'd better leave this conversation until we do know the true figures. You find it very easy to dismiss out of hand what the Palestinians and foreign aid workers on the ground in Gaza say, yet you seem upset that most people don't believe the Israelis either. Strange that !!

What do you have to say about the needless destruction of the infrastructure of Gaza. The power station, the water system, and graves etc ?
Have you anything to say about the graffiti left by the soldiers and the trashing of people's homes ?

"In its fifth post on Amnesty International's Livewire blog, the team described how on Thursday, it had visited families whose homes had been forcibly taken over and used as military positions by Israeli soldiers during the recent three week long conflict.

In the houses, the team saw discarded Israeli army supplies, including sleeping bags, medical kits, empty boxes of munitions and spent cartridges, incontrovertible evidence of the soldiers’ occupation of the houses.

In every one of the homes the team visited, rooms had been ransacked, with furniture overturned and/or smashed. Clothing, documents and other personal items belonging to the families who lived there had been strewn over the floor and soiled, and in one case urinated on.

In one house in the Sayafa area in north Gaza several cardboard boxes full of excrement were left in the house – although there was a functioning toilet which the soldiers could have used. Walls were defaced with crude threats written in Hebrew, such as “next time it will hurt more". In every case the soldiers had smashed holes in the outer walls of the houses to use as lookout and sniper positions."

"Chris Cobb-Smith, a military expert and part of Amnesty International's team, was an officer in the British Army for almost 20 years. He said he was staggered by what he saw and by the behaviour and apparent lack of discipline of the Israeli soldiers. “Gazans have had their houses looted, vandalized and desecrated. As well, the Israeli soldiers have left behind not only mounds of litter and excrement but ammunition and other military equipment. It’s not the behaviour one would expect from a professional army,” he said.

In most cases, the families had fled or were expelled by the soldiers. In some cases, however, the soldiers prevented the families from leaving, using them as "human shields".

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-soldiers-leave-gaza-homes-devastated-condition-20090123

concussion

paulaa wrote: »

So maybe we'd better leave this conversation until we do know the true figures. You find it very easy to dismiss out of hand what the Palestinians and foreign aid workers on the ground in Gaza say, yet you seem upset that most people don't believe the Israelis either. Strange that !!

How have I dismissed widely reported figures? I'm pointing out that there is only one source at the moment and that an Italian journalist has disagreed with it.

I don't understand what you mean by "you seem upset that most people don't believe the Israelis either". I haven't mentioned anything about the Israelis or their figures.

I just think it's a joke that for weeks people have been listening to figures which the UN have gotten straight from Hamas but when an independant report comes out it can be classed as propaganda

paulaa wrote: »

What do you have to say about....

Why should I have to say anything about it? You can demand that from others here who are defending Isreal.
The graffiti and the apparant looting is wrong but the rest of it is pretty standard for fighting in urban areas. Except for leaving kit behind, that's pretty stupid, they're probably gonna get a bollocking from their platoon sergeants and quartermasters.

Seeing as you put so much faith in the medical personnel over there, what do you have to say about the following quote from a doctor working in Gaza?

"It's possible that the death toll in Gaza was 500 or 600 at the most, mainly youths aged 17 to 23 who were enlisted by Hamas, who sent them to their deaths."

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

So maybe we'd better leave this conversation until we do know the true figures. You find it very easy to dismiss out of hand what the Palestinians and foreign aid workers on the ground in Gaza say, yet you seem upset that most people don't believe the Israelis either. Strange that !!

What do you have to say about the needless destruction of the infrastructure of Gaza. The power station, the water system, and graves etc ?
Have you anything to say about the graffiti left by the soldiers and the trashing of people's homes ?

"In its fifth post on Amnesty International's Livewire blog, the team described how on Thursday, it had visited families whose homes had been forcibly taken over and used as military positions by Israeli soldiers during the recent three week long conflict.

In the houses, the team saw discarded Israeli army supplies, including sleeping bags, medical kits, empty boxes of munitions and spent cartridges, incontrovertible evidence of the soldiers’ occupation of the houses.

In every one of the homes the team visited, rooms had been ransacked, with furniture overturned and/or smashed. Clothing, documents and other personal items belonging to the families who lived there had been strewn over the floor and soiled, and in one case urinated on.

In one house in the Sayafa area in north Gaza several cardboard boxes full of excrement were left in the house – although there was a functioning toilet which the soldiers could have used. Walls were defaced with crude threats written in Hebrew, such as “next time it will hurt more". In every case the soldiers had smashed holes in the outer walls of the houses to use as lookout and sniper positions."

"Chris Cobb-Smith, a military expert and part of Amnesty International's team, was an officer in the British Army for almost 20 years. He said he was staggered by what he saw and by the behaviour and apparent lack of discipline of the Israeli soldiers. “Gazans have had their houses looted, vandalized and desecrated. As well, the Israeli soldiers have left behind not only mounds of litter and excrement but ammunition and other military equipment. It’s not the behaviour one would expect from a professional army,” he said.

In most cases, the families had fled or were expelled by the soldiers. In some cases, however, the soldiers prevented the families from leaving, using them as "human shields".

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-soldiers-leave-gaza-homes-devastated-condition-20090123

You seem to know absolutely NOTHING about how a war is fought in urban areas.

Hamas fires from a building so the Israels occupy surrounding buildings and pin them down. Anything that would injure soldiers is smashed like the windows. You don't want glass showering accross the room hitting your comrades. Furniture is cleared away from walls and sometimes holes are smashed in walls so soldiers fire out.

When the Hamas terrorist is pinned down a bulldozer is brought up and smashes a hole in the wall where the terrorist is holed up and retreats. then an armoured personnel carrier smashes through the hole and a squad of troops rapidly exit it and clear out the rooms of the house with rifles and grenades. This is not a sedate process.

This is normal operating procedure for ANY professional army when dealing with insurgents in an urban environment so your "evidence" is not shocking or anything new to anyone with half a clue about urban warfare. Soldiers are not effete creatures like you seem to think they should be and will be cautious about what areas they move in a possibly boobytrapped house/complex.

A Dub in Glasgo

concussion wrote: »

How have I dismissed widely reported figures? I'm pointing out that there is only one source at the moment and that an Italian journalist has disagreed with it.

I don't understand what you mean by "you seem upset that most people don't believe the Israelis either". I haven't mentioned anything about the Israelis or their figures.

I just think it's a joke that for weeks people have been listening to figures which the UN have gotten straight from Hamas but when an independant report comes out it can be classed as propaganda

Why should I have to say anything about it? You can demand that from others here who are defending Isreal.
The graffiti and the apparant looting is wrong but the rest of it is pretty standard for fighting in urban areas. Except for leaving kit behind, that's pretty stupid, they're probably gonna get a bollocking from their platoon sergeants and quartermasters.

Seeing as you put so much faith in the medical personnel over there, what do you have to say about the following quote from a doctor working in Gaza?

For someone who is apparently impartial in the conflict, you appear to have very little empathy for the innocent victims of this carnage.

Do you call the doctor who was abused by the Israelis a Hamas propagandist?

Will you absolve Israel for their responsibility if they only managed to kill 200 children and a couple of hundred other civilians?

I agree that we should be getting verified body counts. No matter what it turns out to be, the death and violence from Israel cannot be described as proportional and justifiable.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

You can deny it all you like but There is miles of footage available to belie your denial. I have seen interviews with French, American, Spanish, British and Australian aid workers who are in Gaza since the beginning of the "war".
Are you saying they are all lying too ?

I'll tell you who is lying, Israel and it's apologists.
For example on WP being used, first it was, No, we never used it.
Then it was, Well Nato and the US use it.
Then it was, Yes but we only use it as flares.
Now we have, 20 shell were fired by reservists
Now we have, We are conducting our own investigation.

Who can believe a word that comes from the Israeli politburo.

In Jenin the IDF posted casualty figures for itself and the palestinians and they were proved CORRECT. The palestinians exaggerated claims for civilian casualties were proved to be WRONG and LIES. There palestinians tend to overclaim because they know that people in the west will fall for it and give them sympathy, its just another tactic to them in the media war.

BlaasForRafa

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

For someone who is apparently impartial in the conflict, you appear to have very little empathy for the innocent victims of this carnage.

Do you call the doctor who was abused by the Israelis a Hamas propagandist?

Will you absolve Israel for their responsibility if they only managed to kill 200 children and a couple of hundred other civilians?

I agree that we should be getting verified body counts. No matter what it turns out to be, the death and violence from Israel cannot be described as proportional and justifiable.

Any untimely death is sad but the wider context is not served by merely blaming one side or the other.

Hamas were deliberately provoking Israel and did not expect Israel to react so strongly. I posted this quote from Hamas leaders already

"Meanwhile it seems that at least the Hamas leadership in Gaza has began to fathom the seriousness of its position. Two Hamas leaders in the Strip, Razi Hamad and Ahmed Yusuf, accused the group's leadership in Damascus of "bringing a terrible disaster on Gaza."

The two are considered members of the pragmatic wing of the party, and charged the Damascus-based leadership with making a terrible mistake in ordering Hamas to foil the extension of the cease-fire agreement with Israel in December. "

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056006.html

There was another link I posted earlier on in the thread from Hamas leaders that they thought any operation would be similar to Operation Summer Rain after Gilad Shalit was kidnapped by Hamas in 2006.

On another point it seems as posted before Hamas is settling some scores with Fatah in Gaza since Operation Cast Lead started:

"On Monday Fatah warned Hamas against "targeting" its members and accused the Islamist organization of killing at least 16 Fatah members, shooting over 80 in the leg and placing many others under house arrest. "

Also Hamas and Fatah seem to be squabbling over the aid that has got into Gaza in the last few days

"Palestinian Authority Social Affairs Minister Mahmoud Habbash earlier on Thursday accused gunmen from the Hamas movement in the Gaza Strip of hijacking dozens of trucks carrying aid intended for residents reeling from the three-week-long Israeli assault.

Aid officials in Jerusalem said earlier this week that least 10 trucks with humanitarian aid sent to the Gaza Strip by the Jordanian Red Crescent Society were confiscated by Hamas police shortly after the trucks entered the territory on Thursday evening. "

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057864.html

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You seem to know absolutely NOTHING about how a war is fought in urban areas.

Hamas fires from a building so the Israels occupy surrounding buildings and pin them down. Anything that would injure soldiers is smashed like the windows. You don't want glass showering accross the room hitting your comrades. Furniture is cleared away from walls and sometimes holes are smashed in walls so soldiers fire out.

When the Hamas terrorist is pinned down a bulldozer is brought up and smashes a hole in the wall where the terrorist is holed up and retreats. then an armoured personnel carrier smashes through the hole and a squad of troops rapidly exit it and clear out the rooms of the house with rifles and grenades. This is not a sedate process.

This is normal operating procedure for ANY professional army when dealing with insurgents in an urban environment so your "evidence" is not shocking or anything new to anyone with half a clue about urban warfare. Soldiers are not effete creatures like you seem to think they should be and will be cautious about what areas they move in a possibly boobytrapped house/complex.

No I have never fought in urban areas or anywhere else but I suppose you have done your military service for Israel have you ?
I don't need to have been in a war to know that what has happened in Gaza has been immoral and cynical and no amount of excuses or trying to play it down will ever change my mind about that.

Someone who has maybe had a bit more experience than you as to what is right or wrong said in the Amnesty link I posted
""Chris Cobb-Smith, a military expert and part of Amnesty International's team, was an officer in the British Army for almost 20 years. He said he was staggered by what he saw and by the behaviour and apparent lack of discipline of the Israeli soldiers. “Gazans have had their houses looted, vandalized and desecrated. As well, the Israeli soldiers have left behind not only mounds of litter and excrement but ammunition and other military equipment. It’s not the behaviour one would expect from a professional army,” he said."

Israel is morally bankrupt imo and the IDF act with immunity so it's obviously policy from the top. As I said, acting like thugs on crack.

Mr.Micro

""Chris Cobb-Smith, a military expert and part of Amnesty International's team, was an officer in the British Army for almost 20 years. He said he was staggered by what he saw and by the behaviour and apparent lack of discipline of the Israeli soldiers. “Gazans have had their houses looted, vandalized and desecrated. As well, the Israeli soldiers have left behind not only mounds of litter and excrement but ammunition and other military equipment. It’s not the behaviour one would expect from a professional army,” he said."

Israel is morally bankrupt imo and the IDF act with immunity so it's obviously policy from the top. As I said, acting like thugs on crack.

Israel's recent foray into Gaza and the destruction it caused is nothing for the Israelis to be proud of IMO, and nor can Israel adopt the moral high ground. It can be justified left and right, but normal people can see it for
what it is, wanton destruction and vandalism. I hope that in future any such outrage is not tolerated by other countries particularly the US and UN. Hamas are equally to blame as they knew the consequences and Palestinian life is cheap to them as much as it is to Israel.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

In Jenin the IDF posted casualty figures for itself and the palestinians and they were proved CORRECT. The palestinians exaggerated claims for civilian casualties were proved to be WRONG and LIES. There palestinians tend to overclaim because they know that people in the west will fall for it and give them sympathy, its just another tactic to them in the media war.

So that makes it ok for the leaders of Israel to do the same then ? Who'd have thought they would stoop to the same level as those ignorant A-rabs :rolleyes:
I suppose we can't expect anything else, especially from the caretaker PM who had to step down from his position because of accusations of fraud, deception and lining his own pockets, and from his colleagues over whom hangs a very dark cloud. Something rotten in the state of Israel.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/olmert-graft-inquiry-adds-to-scandal-list/2006/09/04/1157222072784.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7035526.stm

concussion

paulaa wrote: »

Someone who has maybe had a bit more experience than you as to what is right or wrong said in the Amnesty link I posted
""Chris Cobb-Smith, a military expert and part of Amnesty International's team, was an officer in the British Army for almost 20 years.

There's a certain ex-Irish army officer who is now a security analyst, among other things. To be perfectly honest I've been less than impressed anytime he's opened his mouth about security, defence or crime.

My point? Chris Cobb-Smith may have 20 year military career but that doesn't mean he hasn't got a bias or an agenda. Don't get me wrong, I'm not rubbishing his reportbbut don't get too hung up on his past job.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

For someone who is apparently impartial in the conflict, you appear to have very little empathy for the innocent victims of this carnage.

Do you call the doctor who was abused by the Israelis a Hamas propagandist?

Will you absolve Israel for their responsibility if they only managed to kill 200 children and a couple of hundred other civilians?

I agree that we should be getting verified body counts. No matter what it turns out to be, the death and violence from Israel cannot be described as proportional and justifiable.

In a nutshell, I don't feel a need to come on here and start wailing 'oh the humanity' or 'wont somebody please think of the children??!!'.

I'm afraid I don't know what doctor you're referring to

I have to disagree with you on the last point - international law says attacks must be proportional, so following from that it is accepted that some civilian lives will be lost during armed conflict. So when the lists are compiled the international community is going to have to make a decision on whether Israel used too much force based on whether the numbers killed were proportional to the military gain. Whether they'll actually do anything but grumble and wag the finger at Israel is another matter altogether.

A Dub in Glasgo

concussion wrote: »

In a nutshell, I don't feel a need to come on here and start wailing 'oh the humanity' or 'wont somebody please think of the children??!!'.

Yet you feel the need to try and highlight that the amount of children and other civilians killed by Israel may not be high as the people of Gaza claim. As I said, no empathy for the victims. You do not need to wail to have empathy.

I'm afraid I don't know what doctor you're referring to

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8UxJWdCwOpc

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mh_F0p8Jcrc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezzeldeen_Abu_al-Aish

A Hamas propagandist?

I have to disagree with you on the last point - international law says attacks must be proportional, so following from that it is accepted that some civilian lives will be lost during armed conflict. So when the lists are compiled the international community is going to have to make a decision on whether Israel used too much force based on whether the numbers killed were proportional to the military gain. Whether they'll actually do anything but grumble and wag the finger at Israel is another matter altogether.

lol, the international community sat idly by whilst Israel carried out slaughter. Bush was cheering on the sidelines. Hell will freeze over before Israel is made to be accountable for their actions.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

No I have never fought in urban areas or anywhere else but I suppose you have done your military service for Israel have you ?
I don't need to have been in a war to know that what has happened in Gaza has been immoral and cynical and no amount of excuses or trying to play it down will ever change my mind about that.

Someone who has maybe had a bit more experience than you as to what is right or wrong said in the Amnesty link I posted
""Chris Cobb-Smith, a military expert and part of Amnesty International's team, was an officer in the British Army for almost 20 years. He said he was staggered by what he saw and by the behaviour and apparent lack of discipline of the Israeli soldiers. “Gazans have had their houses looted, vandalized and desecrated. As well, the Israeli soldiers have left behind not only mounds of litter and excrement but ammunition and other military equipment. It’s not the behaviour one would expect from a professional army,” he said."

Israel is morally bankrupt imo and the IDF act with immunity so it's obviously policy from the top. As I said, acting like thugs on crack.

First Chris Cobb-Smith was in the Royal Artillery so has sod-all experience of fighting in built-up areas. Second his company Chiron Resources is employed by NGO's in Gaza so is naturally going to follow their bias and third he was involved in propogating the myth of "massacre" in Jenin that the UN report that I already linked to completely and utterly disproved.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

So that makes it ok for the leaders of Israel to do the same then ? Who'd have thought they would stoop to the same level as those ignorant A-rabs :rolleyes:
I suppose we can't expect anything else, especially from the caretaker PM who had to step down from his position because of accusations of fraud, deception and lining his own pockets, and from his colleagues over whom hangs a very dark cloud. Something rotten in the state of Israel.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/olmert-graft-inquiry-adds-to-scandal-list/2006/09/04/1157222072784.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7035526.stm

You don't dispute the evidence that the Palestinians have lied about casualty figures in the past then.

So you yet again try to shift the discussion to something you can score points against Israel on. Well show me one post where I said I support Olmert. I support the right of Israel to defend itself not any political party, the justice system will deal with Olmert.

And hey if you dislike Olmert you're gonna LOVE Netanyahu

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

First Chris Cobb-Smith was in the Royal Artillery so has sod-all experience of fighting in built-up areas. Second his company Chiron Resources is employed by NGO's in Gaza so is naturally going to follow their bias and third he was involved in propogating the myth of "massacre" in Jenin that the UN report that I already linked to completely and utterly disproved.

So what's your experience then ?

Nice Googling but it doesn't change the fact that he seems to know the difference between a well trained force and a bunch of out of control thugs.

BTW if they are so convinced they did nothing wrong in Gaza why have they already employed a lawyer to represent them (soldiers) in case they are sued ?

What kind of defence could he possibly be preparing other than, We woz right, we did nothing wrong. Also now they're protecting them by issuing a court order not to disclose the identities or photos of these brave heroes of Israel.

BlaasForRafa

Bunch of out of control thugs hahaha, so its down to common insults now is it? When have I ever called Hamas terrorists names despite what I may think of them?

Whatever your opinion may be, the fact is that the IDF fought a campaign to reduce rocket firings and weaken Hamas and did so while losing only 10 troops. Hamas promised to turn Gaza into Stalingrad for the IDF, thanks to the IDFs professionalism and good tactics Hamas completely failed.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

So what's your experience then ?

Nice Googling but it doesn't change the fact that he seems to know the difference between a well trained force and a bunch of out of control thugs.

BTW if they are so convinced they did nothing wrong in Gaza why have they already employed a lawyer to represent them (soldiers) in case they are sued ?

What kind of defence could he possibly be preparing other than, We woz right, we did nothing wrong. Also now they're protecting them by issuing a court order not to disclose the identities or photos of these brave heroes of Israel.

There is obviously going to be frivolous lawsuits brought by do-gooders who sympathise with the palestinians and/or Hamas.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You don't dispute the evidence that the Palestinians have lied about casualty figures in the past then.

So you yet again try to shift the discussion to something you can score points against Israel on. Well show me one post where I said I support Olmert. I support the right of Israel to defend itself not any political party, the justice system will deal with Olmert.

And hey if you dislike Olmert you're gonna LOVE Netanyahu

I am sceptical of all claims no matter what side they come from, but I cannot dispute what I've seen of the devastation inside Gaza or the dead kids in the hospitals, mangled, shot and burned.
I've seen The Hawk in action many times before and I know what he's like.
He will only alienate Israel more and if true to form, he might just lose the support of the few allies she has. As it looks likely that he will get in then the Israelis only have themselves to blame if that happens. (Where did I hear that before lol)

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Bunch of out of control thugs hahaha, so its down to common insults now is it? When have I ever called Hamas terrorists names despite what I may think of them?

Whatever your opinion may be, the fact is that the IDF fought a campaign to reduce rocket firings and weaken Hamas and did so while losing only 10 troops. Hamas promised to turn Gaza into Stalingrad for the IDF, thanks to the IDFs professionalism and good tactics Hamas completely failed.

Talking of insults. maybe you should read back on your own posts, you're even quite good at it.

Your perception of reality is a tad skewed. Hammas are still there, theyeven seem to have more support than ever before. Shooting fish in a barrell were the IDF's tactics. How could they miss in such a highly populated area ? That doesn't make their behaviour or their tactics right by any stretch of the imagination.

Surely nobody in their right mind could militarily compare Hammas with the IDF. No, Israel might have achieved the results they desired but they have lost the moral high ground and gained more support for the Palestinians.
Well done Israel !!

Offy

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

There is obviously going to be frivolous lawsuits brought by do-gooders who sympathise with the palestinians and/or Hamas.

I sympathise with Palestinians, I do not sympathise with Hamas. I do also find your signature offensive. It really is in very poor taste.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

There is obviously going to be frivolous lawsuits brought by do-gooders who sympathise with the palestinians and/or Hamas.

You might think that killing innocent civilians by the truckload is frivolous but I'm happy to say I have more respect for human life than that.

I won't hold my breath, but I would like to see those responsible for war crimes, including Hammas militants if cases are brought against them, made to answer for their behaviour

Manic Moran

paulaa wrote: »

BTW if they are so convinced they did nothing wrong in Gaza why have they already employed a lawyer to represent them (soldiers) in case they are sued ?

Unsurprising. It has become something of a reflection of our civilised society that the threat of litigation has quite literally become a life-or-death issue for troops. It is a matter of serious concern that many soldiers are highly reluctant to take decisions on the risk that some lawyer with the benefit of hindsight and behind a desk may decide that a decision was wrong and prosecute or sue accordingly. Ultimately this can come down to things like shoot/no-shoot decisions not being made until after it's too late.

Also now they're protecting them by issuing a court order not to disclose the identities or photos of these brave heroes of Israel.

Not an unusual procedure in the case of high profile incidents. Persons involved can become causes celebres, or even victims of vigilante justice, which tends not to bother with research or trials.

I'll tell you who is lying, Israel and it's apologists.
<snip>
Now we have, We are conducting our own investigation.

I agree, it's stupid of them to do that sort of thing, but probably not for the same reasons you do. Instead of trying to appease the aghast (And arguably divorced-from-reality) rest of the world, just outright admit it. It may not be popular, but negative news does not get better with age.

NTM

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Bunch of out of control thugs hahaha, so its down to common insults now is it? When have I ever called Hamas terrorists names despite what I may think of them?

Whatever your opinion may be, the fact is that the IDF fought a campaign to reduce rocket firings and weaken Hamas and did so while losing only 10 troops. Hamas promised to turn Gaza into Stalingrad for the IDF, thanks to the IDFs professionalism and good tactics Hamas completely failed.

I caught a report on Skynews earlier today from what was Gazas only cement production factory. The IDF bulldozed the control room and then went and tipped over every Concrete mixer truck on its side. Very proffessional, in the systematic sense....

Sand

I caught a report on Skynews earlier today from what was Gazas only cement production factory. The IDF bulldozed the control room and then went and tipped over every Concrete mixer truck on its side. Very proffessional, in the systematic sense....

Industrial production has been a military target since the phrase total war was coined.

The democratically elected Palestinian government in Gaza decided to provoke a war with Israel. There are consequences to that. Having their cement production factory destroyed is one of them. Gaza cant have its cake and eat it, it cant attempt to murder Israeli citizens and yet have Israel fufill its every requirement.

Macha

Sand wrote: »

The democratically elected Palestinian government in Gaza decided to provoke a war with Israel.

Would you care to provide some proof for that? As yet, I've seen nothing but IDF claims, which bear little weight.

In addition, most countries would consider a siege an act of war but Gaza is supposed to accept the blockade? I wonder how Israel would react to a blockade of their borders..

Serenity Now!

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

And hey if you dislike Olmert you're gonna LOVE Netanyahu

Don't joke about that. It most certainly isn't funny or something to be taken lightly.
Likud's hardline stance are the very reason why this rainbow coalition has governed Israel. Anyone with any inkling of a wish towards stability in the region will be hoping that Netan gets nowhere near the chair.

Mr.Micro

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Don't joke about that. It most certainly isn't funny or something to be taken lightly.
Likud's hardline stance are the very reason why this rainbow coalition has governed Israel. Anyone with any inkling of a wish towards stability in the region will be hoping that Netan gets nowhere near the chair.

Its like a merry go round one hardline despot after another, Israel seems spoilt for choice.