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1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

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    #2822
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Its like a merry go round one hardline despot after another, Israel seems spoilt for choice.

    I suggest you actually read up about the Israeli political system.
    Not all PMs of the country were Herutite or of the Likud mindset.


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    #2823
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    I suggest you actually read up about the Israeli political system.
    Not all PMs of the country were Herutite or of the Likud mindset.

    What happened in Gaza, tells me a very different story.


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    #2824
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Unsurprising. It has become something of a reflection of our civilised society that the threat of litigation has quite literally become a life-or-death issue for troops. It is a matter of serious concern that many soldiers are highly reluctant to take decisions on the risk that some lawyer with the benefit of hindsight and behind a desk may decide that a decision was wrong and prosecute or sue accordingly. Ultimately this can come down to things like shoot/no-shoot decisions not being made until after it's too late.



    Not an unusual procedure in the case of high profile incidents. Persons involved can become causes celebres, or even victims of vigilante justice, which tends not to bother with research or trials.



    I agree, it's stupid of them to do that sort of thing, but probably not for the same reasons you do. Instead of trying to appease the aghast (And arguably divorced-from-reality) rest of the world, just outright admit it. It may not be popular, but negative news does not get better with age.

    NTM

    Too late for whom ? Are you saying that a soldier is entitled to shoot a 5 year old child or any unarmed civilian standing in front of him ? Or in the case of C4 cameraman James Miller, while carrying a white flag in 2003.

    I thought the IDF were supposed to be one of the best trained armies in the world but it would seem that the basic rules conduct towards civilian populations are not being taught . The words "Restraint, Respect and Judgement" don't seem to figure much either. It's a "shoot to kill anything that moves" policy pure and simple.

    Would the "vigilante justice" you mention be anything like the assassination squads that Israel uses ?

    I would dispute your "divorced from reality" statement. People are better informed than ever before, hence the increasing objections to the way the Israelis conduct themselves and their motivations.


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    #2825
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    I have just come across this which might explain The IDF's shoot to kill policy.
    Mother Rachel told them where to shoot, a bit like Bush's "God told me" malarky.
    I wonder if this will be used by the defence in any war crimes trials

    "Two days have passed since the ceasefire in Gaza took effect, and one of the most widespread legends of the days on the battlefield has received rabbinical approval. On the last days of the war, rumors spread about a woman presenting herself as Jewish matriarch Rachel appearing to IDF soldiers and warning them of explosives, booby-trapped houses and terrorist ambushes within the Gaza Strip.



    Former Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, who is considered one of most prominent religious leaders in Israel, recently prayed several times at Rachel's Tomb for the safety of the troops. When asked about the rumor, the rabbi said, "The story is true. I sent her."

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3659308,00.html


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    #2826
    Offy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Offy


    paulaa wrote: »
    I have just come across this which might explain The IDF's shoot to kill policy.
    Mother Rachel told them where to shoot, a bit like Bush's "God told me" malarky.
    I wonder if this will be used by the defence in any war crimes trials

    "Two days have passed since the ceasefire in Gaza took effect, and one of the most widespread legends of the days on the battlefield has received rabbinical approval. On the last days of the war, rumors spread about a woman presenting herself as Jewish matriarch Rachel appearing to IDF soldiers and warning them of explosives, booby-trapped houses and terrorist ambushes within the Gaza Strip.



    Former Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, who is considered one of most prominent religious leaders in Israel, recently prayed several times at Rachel's Tomb for the safety of the troops. When asked about the rumor, the rabbi said, "The story is true. I sent her."

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3659308,00.html

    Is that real/true?


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    #2827
    Offy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Offy


    Due to his illness, the rabbi has not been giving his weekly sermon in recent months, but has been replaced by his son, Safed Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu. In Monday's sermon Rabbi Eliyahu junior commented on the rumor, saying, "If I hadn't heard this story with my own ears, I wouldn't be able to tell it, but I met the head of a Yeshiva who told me, 'This is not a fabricated story. I know the man this happened to'.
    ---from http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3659308,00.html

    The mans being sick so do the rantings of a sick man count????


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    #2828
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    Offy wrote: »
    ---from http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3659308,00.html

    The mans being sick so do the rantings of a sick man count????

    I have no idea if it's true Offy but it is a Jewish website and they do say "Former Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, who is considered one of most prominent religious leaders in Israel. "
    It suggests that IDF soldiers saw Mother Rachel in the streets of Gaza.
    I think my former description of them "as thugs on crack may be more accurate that I thought.

    A bit like our own moving statues:P


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    #2829
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    paulaa wrote: »
    Too late for whom ? Are you saying that a soldier is entitled to shoot a 5 year old child or any unarmed civilian standing in front of him ? Or in the case of C4 cameraman James Miller, while carrying a white flag in 2003
    Agree. James Miller was an independent film-maker by the way. He was shot by Bedouin IDF soldiers without a warning. In their defence (I mean in their words - I'm not defending them), they fired a warning shot because they alleged they had no English. This was despite his assistant/translator/presenter being there and saying who they were. The second shot killed him instantly. Very harrowing to watch this in his unfinished documentary movie (the second half was to be from Israeli children's perspective). You'll watch it and say to yourself 'if only they went back to the house after the first shot'. The legal case around this murder is still unfortunately in stalemate.

    He was a legend and the ultimate neutral observer in a conflict zone. His work in Afghanistan was unsurpassed. And in 'Death in Gaza', his asst challenging Hamas loons about their use of a child and blabbing on about said child's destiny as a martyr ('when he dies, many more will take his place') particularly compelling to watch.
    Sorry about the waffle. James Miller was a hero of mine.
    paulaa wrote: »
    I thought the IDF were supposed to be one of the best trained armies in the world but it would seem that the basic rules conduct towards civilian populations are not being taught . The words "Restraint, Respect and Judgement" don't seem to figure much either. It's a "shoot to kill anything that moves" policy pure and simple
    Is that any different to any other war zones or conflict/war/'police' action? Its very rare that military personnel are held to account for their actions/in-actions in the heat of it. This doesn't justify what goes on but it would never surprise either.
    paulaa wrote: »
    Would the "vigilante justice" you mention be anything like the assassination squads that Israel uses ?
    Hamas have also been busy 'cleaning house' lately.


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    #2830
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    Agree. James Miller was an independent film-maker by the way. He was shot by Bedouin IDF soldiers without a warning. In their defence (I mean in their words - I'm not defending them), they fired a warning shot because they alleged they had no English. This was despite his assistant/translator/presenter being there and saying who they were. The second shot killed him instantly. Very harrowing to watch this in his unfinished documentary movie (the second half was to be from Israeli children's perspective). You'll watch it and say to yourself 'if only they went back to the house after the first shot'. The legal case around this murder is still unfortunately in stalemate.

    He was a legend and the ultimate neutral observer in a conflict zone. His work in Afghanistan was unsurpassed. And in 'Death in Gaza', his asst challenging Hamas loons about their use of a child and blabbing on about said child's destiny as a martyr ('when he dies, many more will take his place') particularly compelling to watch.
    Sorry about the waffle. James Miller was a hero of mine.


    Is that any different to any other war zones or conflict/war/'police' action? Its very rare that military personnel are held to account for their actions/in-actions in the heat of it. This doesn't justify what goes on but it would never surprise either.


    Hamas have also been busy 'cleaning house' lately.

    Don't fall down, but I agree with you about James Miller :D I should have clarified it by saying he was making a documentary for C4 at the time

    There wouldn't be such a fuss about if Israel didn't keep denying it happens. Then if they are brought to book about it they promise Internal investigations which never come to anything either. It gives the appearance that the IDF command and the Government are condoning these actions and are no better than Hammas.


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    #2831
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    Industrial production has been a military target since the phrase total war was coined.

    The democratically elected Palestinian government in Gaza decided to provoke a war with Israel. There are consequences to that. Having their cement production factory destroyed is one of them. Gaza cant have its cake and eat it, it cant attempt to murder Israeli citizens and yet have Israel fufill its every requirement.

    So, by your logic, attacking Israel, as its democratically elected Governments have decided to continue the settlements, is also fair enough.


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    #2832
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    Agree. James Miller was an independent film-maker by the way. He was shot by Bedouin IDF soldiers without a warning. In their defence (I mean in their words - I'm not defending them), they fired a warning shot because they alleged they had no English..

    There was a shot. However no warning accompanied it. Thats usually referred to as a "miss".


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    #2833
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    Nodin wrote: »
    There was a shot. However no warning accompanied it. Thats usually referred to as a "miss".
    Yes a shot which was not fired at them or past them. This is one point that those fighting for justice on behalf of James Miller have conceded. The fatal shot was obviously aimed at him and was a precision hit in his neck.


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    #2834
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    paulaa wrote: »
    I have just come across this which might explain The IDF's shoot to kill policy.
    Mother Rachel told them where to shoot, a bit like Bush's "God told me" malarky.
    I wonder if this will be used by the defence in any war crimes trials

    "Two days have passed since the ceasefire in Gaza took effect, and one of the most widespread legends of the days on the battlefield has received rabbinical approval. On the last days of the war, rumors spread about a woman presenting herself as Jewish matriarch Rachel appearing to IDF soldiers and warning them of explosives, booby-trapped houses and terrorist ambushes within the Gaza Strip.



    Former Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, who is considered one of most prominent religious leaders in Israel, recently prayed several times at Rachel's Tomb for the safety of the troops. When asked about the rumor, the rabbi said, "The story is true. I sent her."

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3659308,00.html

    Yet another non-story from you. All kinds of myths and legends grow out of war, I suggest you do some research on the "Angel of Mons".

    And for an actual fact, Southern Command leadership gave instructions to troops on avoiding booby trapped apartment buildings
    http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/the_Front/09/01/2001.htm


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    #2835
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    Hamas have also been busy 'cleaning house' lately.

    One would have gained the impression that Hamas were the good guys from some of the posters here, who knew eh?

    ""Anyone who comes out against Hamas - will die," said A., a resident of the Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza, and the father of nine. "Many people blame Hamas for the recent deterioration, but they are afraid to say anything," he said."

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051355.html


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    #2836
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Yet another non-story from you. All kinds of myths and legends grow out of war, I suggest you do some research on the "Angel of Mons".

    And for an actual fact, Southern Command leadership gave instructions to troops on avoiding booby trapped apartment buildings
    http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/the_Front/09/01/2001.htm

    Blaas you obviously don't like my posts so don't read them if they upset you so much.
    Why would I want to research another "non story", one helping of nonsense a day is quite enough .


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    #2837
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Any Israeli soldiers accused of war crimes in the Gaza Strip will be given state protection from prosecution overseas, the country's PM has said.


    That's the way to go, so gives a green light to soldiers now and in the future to do what they like if they want with impunity. Olmert is a real card. What was I saying earlier about despots?









    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7850085.stm


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    #2838
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    What was I saying earlier about despots?
    You were obviously misunderstanding what a 'despot' actually is.
    Where are Hamas' opposition in Gaza?


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    #2839
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    You were obviously misunderstanding what a 'despot' actually is.
    Where are Hamas' opposition in Gaza?

    I have equally condemned Hamas in previous posts. What sort of leader in a modern day democracy condones and protects without condition it appears soldiers who may be guilty of war crimes? Its about time Olmert stepped down.


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    #2840
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    I have equally condemned Hamas in previous posts. What sort of leader in a modern day democracy condones and protects without condition it appears soldiers who may be guilty of war crimes? Its about time Olmert stepped down.
    What sort of leader or govt does this? Almost every effin' one of them.

    Olmert opts out in february when the election. He stepped down as leader of Kadima because of corruption charges thus Livni was elected the party leader. As Neve Gordon pointed out, this would credibly be one of the four reasons that they launched into the offensive in the first place. With Hamas stupidly, stubbornly and irresponsibly providing the excuse for them to do so even during an alleged ceasefire broken in June, a matter of days after it went into effect.


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    #2841
    ch750536
    Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭ch750536


    How can anyone call a truce after they have just beaten the **** out of you!
    How can anyone prove a war crime when all journalists were banned from entering Gaza?

    Entering a new type of war where you target the journos, run over the kids with tanks then try to exterminate the race you have run to desperation over the last few decades.

    Well done Israel, you just made 20 years worth of suicide bombers, enjoy.
    :rolleyes:


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    #2842
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    ch750536 wrote: »
    then try to exterminate the race you have run to desperation over the last few decades
    They have done much but attempting to exterminate a "race" is not one of them.


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    #2843
    concussion
    Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Yet you feel the need to try and highlight that the amount of children and other civilians killed by Israel may not be high as the people of Gaza claim.

    Yes I do, because they might be wrong. And the people of Gaza who are compiling those figures are Hamas, not the average medic in a hospital.
    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    As I said, no empathy for the victims. You do not need to wail to have empathy.

    Exactly, I don't have to wail. In fact, I don't have to mention it at all. Just so you know if 3000 Israelis or British were killed I would post the same way.
    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    A Hamas propagandist?

    Right, that doctor. Now why exactly are you asking me about him? I still don't understand what your gettin at.

    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    lol, the international community sat idly by whilst Israel carried out slaughter. Bush was cheering on the sidelines. Hell will freeze over before Israel is made to be accountable for their actions.

    Too true.
    paulaa wrote: »
    I have just come across this which might explain The IDF's shoot to kill policy.

    Every army in the world operates a shoot-to-kill policy, shooting to wound is for TV shows.


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    #2844
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    concussion wrote: »



    Every army in the world operates a shoot-to-kill policy, shooting to wound is for TV shows.
    Other than Israel I am not aware of any army's acting on the behalf of "democracy" who carry out a shoot to kill policy on three and four year old children,


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    #2845
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    Other than Israel I am not aware of any army's acting on the behalf of "democracy" who carry out a shoot to kill policy on three and four year old children,

    Don't forget, the Prime minister then issuing a statement to say all soldiers accused of war crimes will be protected. That's not a democracy as we know it, unless if has been redefined.


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    #2846
    concussion
    Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    Other than Israel I am not aware of any army's acting on the behalf of "democracy" who carry out a shoot to kill policy on three and four year old children,

    Where have Israeli soldiers deliberately shot children?


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    #2847
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    One would have gained the impression that Hamas were the good guys from some of the posters here, who knew eh?

    ""Anyone who comes out against Hamas - will die," said A., a resident of the Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza, and the father of nine. "Many people blame Hamas for the recent deterioration, but they are afraid to say anything," he said."
    "What's this" a change of tune, concern for fathers of children in Gaza, or is the feigned concern only when baddies "Hamas do the killings and a case of (these things happen when the Israelis are involved) save us the crocodile tears


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    #2848
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    concussion wrote: »
    Where have Israeli soldiers deliberately shot children?
    Try and keep up with what.s going on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7843430.stm


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    #2849
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    Try and keep up with what.s going on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7843430.stm

    Where does it say Israeli soldiers deliberately shot the child?

    When there's pitched battles going on in populated areas, there's a high risk of civvie's getting caught in the middle of it. You can easily say that they may have been victims of Israeli gunfire, to say they were deliberately shot is nothing more than specualtion.


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    #2850
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    Poccington wrote: »
    Where does it say Israeli soldiers deliberately shot the child?

    When there's pitched battles going on in populated areas, there's a high risk of civvie's getting caught in the middle of it. You can easily say that they may have been victims of Israeli gunfire, to say they were deliberately shot is nothing more than specualtion.
    WHAT? pitched battles with 3 little girls and their mother and granny, are you taking the piss, or is it just selective hearing. Did you watch and listen to the report


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    #2851
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,205 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    concussion wrote: »
    Yes I do, because they might be wrong.

    You don't feel the need to post about what is actually wrong yet you do feel the need to post about what may be wrong :confused:
    concussion wrote: »

    Right, that doctor. Now why exactly are you asking me about him? I still don't understand what your gettin at.
    Now look what's happened - those pesky journalists have disagreed with the Health Ministry of a terrorist organisation. Propaganda of the highest order!!

    International organizations, such as the United Nations and the Red Cross, said they had relied on the Palestinians for their own death counts

    All those agencies get their figures from the same place - the Hamas Health Ministry

    Seeing as you put so much faith in the medical personnel over there

    I just think it's a joke that for weeks people have been listening to figures which the UN have gotten straight from Hamas but when an independant report comes out it can be classed as propaganda


    ..........


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