Plan to cut airport jobs and shelve Dublin's second runway

ian_m

This article was brought to my attention on the Green Issues section of boards.ie

It is regarding the shelving of the proposed second runway at Dublin Airport. I thought this seemed like a bad idea.

Here's the original article from the Irish Times: Plan to cut airport jobs and shelve Dublin's second runway

Anything I've ever read before regarding lack of expansion usually means bad news for airports. Surely there would also be a safety aspect to be taken into consideration here with the amount of traffic being carried on one runway. Is it not a fairly regular occurrence to see a stack over the Irish sea because their just isn't the capacity for aircraft using Dublin?

Anyway, I just hope the idea doesn't get shelved for too long.

diverdriver

Whatever about the jobs, shelving the runway would be stupid. Inevitably it will only be starting construction when it's most needed. It's recipe for chaos and delays into the future.

As for cutting jobs in Shannon and Cork. How come the DUBLIN airport authority can make decisions like that!

qnhhpa

Building a second runway at Dublin is a waste of time and money. The airport is a mess, thats where the congestion is. There aren't enough parking stands and those that are there are in cul de sacs and too close together.
The biggest delays in Dublin are on the apron, not on the runway. It would be better to spend the money building a new airport in the midlands for the whole country. Somewhere near Mullingar...

GBX

diverdriver wrote: »

As for cutting jobs in Shannon and Cork. How come the DUBLIN airport authority can make decisions like that!

Because the Dublin Airport Authority was the name decided on after changing from Aer Rianta, which operates Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports. Sounds odd I know ... but its just a name.

FoldedShirt

qnhhpa wrote: »

Building a second runway at Dublin is a waste of time and money. The airport is a mess, thats where the congestion is. There aren't enough parking stands and those that are there are in cul de sacs and too close together.
The biggest delays in Dublin are on the apron, not on the runway. It would be better to spend the money building a new airport in the midlands for the whole country. Somewhere near Mullingar...

The runway is needed. Perhaps not right now, but it's going to take a few years to build it anyway. Runway capacity isn't as big a problem as runway length. No airline can fly from Dublin direct to the Far-East because of the short runway. This doesn't just restrict passenger services, it affects cargo too. We currently have the bizarre situation that any airline that wishes to fly direct from Ireland to Singapore/Hong Kong would have to stop in Shannon!

FlutterinBantam

Ahem, I wouldnt say they are exactly queuing up to fly direct son

FoldedShirt

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Ahem, I wouldnt say they are exactly queuing up to fly direct son

Nobody is queuing up right now, but it takes a few years to build infrastructure. Airlines were queuing up a few years ago, but the runway wasn't there. Airlines may be queuing up in 5 years time, but there now won't be a runway then either. Aer Lingus have ordered A350s to enable flights to the Far-East and South Africa without load restrictions. They're not going to be much use when they arrive in 4 years and the runway can't handle them.

It's typical Irish short-termism. The same attitude is on display with regards to the Aer Lingus takeover bid - let's make a few bob now and to hell with the future (when we might make considerably more).

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Ahem, I wouldnt say they are exactly queuing up to fly direct son

The runway is needed for when the global credit crunch ends. Look at the people who said the M50 would be grand with 2 lanes,the money spent upgrading it can be viewed as a waste due to short term thinking all those years ago, The second runway is to help in 5-10 years time,not now. T2 will help to attract airline interest but a longer runway is needed to actually operate to certain destinations.

And a reason for the congestion on the aproon is that all aircarft are heading for/away the samw runway. Often it can be inbound aircraft that are holding up departues. With two runways in operation the ground movements could be streamlined.

Am surprised to read such a knee jerk comment from a well informed poster such as yourself.

FlutterinBantam

FoldedShirt wrote: »

The runway is needed. Perhaps not right now, but it's going to take a few years to build it anyway. Runway capacity isn't as big a problem as runway length. No airline can fly from Dublin direct to the Far-East because of the short runway. This doesn't just restrict passenger services, it affects cargo too. We currently have the bizarre situation that any airline that wishes to fly direct from Ireland to Singapore/Hong Kong would have to stop in Shannon!

Bramble wrote: »

The runway is needed for when the global credit crunch ends. Look at the people who said the M50 would be grand with 2 lanes,the money spent upgrading it can be viewed as a waste due to short term thinking all those years ago, The second runway is to help in 5-10 years time,not now. T2 will help to attract airline interest but a longer runway is needed to actually operate to certain destinations.

And a reason for the congestion on the aproon is that all aircarft are heading for/away the samw runway. Often it can be inbound aircraft that are holding up departues. With two runways in operation the ground movements could be streamlined.

Am surprised to read such a knee jerk comment from a well informed poster such as yourself.

I was responding to the emboldened section of FoldedShirts post,and can understand that it might seem a bit knee jerk.I was in a bit of a cynical mode there.
I fully agree that DA needs a second runway to accommodate the upsurge expected when T2 opens, and hopefully the economic clouds lift .

Hope that clears up the apparent 'departure from prescribed flight plan':)

qnhhpa

I must reiterate, a second runway will make very little difference to congestion at Dublin airport without changing the apron layout. I concede a longer runway would allow for heavier aircraft, however the proposed north runway is basically a mirror image of the present one. Regardless the airport can't handle the number of heavy aircraft that use it at the moment - there aren't enough stands - and none of them could handle an A380.

And a reason for the congestion on the aproon is that all aircarft are heading for/away the samw runway. Often it can be inbound aircraft that are holding up departues. With two runways in operation the ground movements could be streamlined.

Departure intervals for aircraft on the same runway with no arrivals are 1m30s, 2m with arrivals inbetween. So yes there would be an improvement there. However all those aircraft, arrivals and departures are using the same apron and stands.
There are currently five cul de sacs on the apron (including T2 area) and effectively only one (maybe two) aircraft can move in these cul de sacs at a time. Thats where the main delays are.

I'm all for putting the proper infrastructure in place in a timely manner but it has to be the correct stuff. A new runway is sexy - sorting out parking stands isn't - but the first is a complete waste of time and money without the second.

Tenger

I partially disagree with the above. Start the runway as soon as possible. A new runway takes several years to build. Start it now and while this work is ongoing, sort out the apron layout to streamline movements. The cul de sac between Pier A and B,and the other one berween Pier B and Pier C are traps for aircraft. DUB is a mess at certain times of the day. About 9-10 weeks ago had a 45 min taxi to takeoff..................madness!

DUB doesn't need to be able to handle the A380,in extremis put it beside the firestation and use a big set of steps!!

IRLConor

qnhhpa wrote: »

however the proposed north runway is basically a mirror image of the present one.

I thought it would be almost 500m longer at 3110m? That puts it only 90m shorter than the one in Shannon.

From a quick run around Wikipedia, that would allow A340s, A380s, B747s to operate at or near their MTOW where they currently can't on 10/28. Granted, the infrastructure isn't there for regular passenger operations with them but surely the runway would be an advantage for heavier freight operations and for alleviating congestion at peak times while the stands and terminals get sorted out?

irishatco

ian_m wrote: »

Anything I've ever read before regarding lack of expansion usually means bad news for airports. Surely there would also be a safety aspect to be taken into consideration here with the amount of traffic being carried on one runway. Is it not a fairly regular occurrence to see a stack over the Irish sea because their just isn't the capacity for aircraft using Dublin?

Holding at bust European airports is the norm, if the only argument in favour of a parallel runway is to reduce the relatively minor holding delays at Dublin then we'd be wasting a huge amount of money.

Capacity is managed by the CFMU (flow management) in Brussels in conjunction with local ATC supervisors to best utilise airspace and runway capacity, however bunching of arrivals can and does happen which can lead to aircraft holding. This usually only happens at peak times, and rarely exceeds 10 minutes delay.

The other arguments for a parallel are more compelling, but I'd second the comments from qnhhpa re. apron layout. The DAA need a complete review of apron and taxiway layout in Dublin to help the flow of traffic to and from the runway(s) and if a parallel is completed will need to provide more stands.

sdanseo

What people don't realise when they say putting off the runway construction is that projects like this in Ireland take longer to build than planned, almost all the time. Saying that we're in a recession makes no difference - the runway will realistically take 4 years to build and enter service from the day the first sod is turned. Even the most pessiistic estimates say this recession will be over in half that time.

It stands to reason that demand will be back up to around the current levels in time for opening even if construction began tomorrow. Another year or two on top of that without a runway and the airport would be strained.

Of course this all depends on whether or not the influx of immigrants continues after the recession. Around 30pc of Polish will leave this year...will they come back?

A new airport would be a great idea but unfortunately, planning something that large in a recession (or in a boom for that matter) is frankly beyond this government and would cost more money that we don;t have no matter what way you look at it. Even if private investor got involved the cost to the exchequer would still be huge because of the depth of the government's involvement. It would be an unmitigated disaster without major political reform.

Ckal

Athlone International Airport would solve Dublin's congestion problem. But I guess hell will freeze over before we see that.

I got my crayons out:

LOL. :pac:

derry

Ckal wrote: »

Athlone International Airport would solve Dublin's congestion problem. But I guess hell will freeze over before we see that.

I got my crayons out:

LOL. :pac:

But the plan is flawed nobody much lives in Athlone:D just kidding .

It wont wash to ask one half of the dubs to treck to Athlone to fly and let the other half leave from Dublin.

I figure it would have to be closser like Nass would be the max ui the Dub s can take for leaving to fly

Really the problem is that Dublin airport is badly placed .Be that as it may the idea for another Dublin airport privately owned would need to be within Twenty miles of Dublin city center to work.

I will give my Friend a project engineer type a shout to crack the problem as he a whizz .I recall him saying some few years back that there was better solutions than expanding Dublin airport but seeing as all the show said Dublin airport was a green light for expansion no point to pursue that debate. Funny thing my friend even went to some of the same classes in college as O Leary did .So maybe my friend can do to airports what O Leary did to Planes .

Would put the crappers up Dublin airport if another airport could be built near to Dublin especially if it wasn't under the wing of that semi state bunch Aer Rianta .


Derry

ian_m

Ckal wrote: »

But I guess hell will freeze over before we see that.

Not if global warming gets us first hehe...

FoldedShirt

The location of Dublin airport has one major advantage, it has space to expand and very few nimbys around it. There are not many major airports in Europe in that situation.

From a transport point of view, the location itself isn't the problem, it's the infrastructure around it. It is quite embarassing that Dublin is the only large Western European capital without a rail link to its airport. If the airport was connected to a high quality national rail network nobody would be talking about building another one.