Shay Given?

carlop

Personally I think if Given wants to leave he's chosen to do it at a bad time. I think most teams will be reluctant about changing goalkeeper halfway through a season. Goalkeepers need time to get to know their defence, and the second half of the season ideally is not it. Considering Almunia is Arsenal captain and VDS has just been given a new contract, he's putting himself in the shop window at the wrong moment.

Xavi6 wrote: »

We're after him now -


Not surprised. He'd be a perfect mentor for Hart.

I'd disagree with this, I don't think Given is old enough nor Hart young or unestablished enough for Given to act as a mentor. Given should have at least 6 years left as a top-class goalkeeper, which I don't think Hart will be happy to spend as second-choice. Considering no manager should be rotating goalkeeper, one would have to be chosen over the other.

Headshot

Boggles wrote: »

I'm not saying Given can't do this, but comparing him to a keeper who has been a big part of a defense that has won 3 big competition in 2 years and saying he could easily replace him is very very hard to tell and very unfair to VDS.

i wouldnt call him a big part of the defense tbh
Rio and vidic more or less carry him
as i said earliar VDS was awsome when he came to utd first but maybe age is catching up with him

Boggles

{(-_-)}HeadShoT** wrote: »

i wouldnt call him a big part of the defense tbh
Rio and vidic more or less carry him
as i said earliar VDS was awsome when he came to utd first but maybe age is catching up with him

Don't know about that, that peno save to win the champions league for United made him look young enough.

All Keepers make mistakes, the ones playing at the top clubs gets highlighted more. VDS played every single game in his first season, he lost a bit of confidence when he got his nose broken, but to suggest he has not been a major part of Uniteds success and is being carried is ridiculous.

The Number one spot at United is a poison chalice, VDS has brought stability and made it his own, no team that has won what United have in the past 2 seasons has room for passengers especially in this position.

Headshot

Boggles wrote: »

Don't know about that, that peno save to win the champions league for United made him look young enough.

All Keepers make mistakes, the ones playing at the top clubs gets highlighted more. VDS played every single game in his first season, he lost a bit of confidence when he got his nose broken, but to suggest he has not been a major part of Uniteds success and is being carried is ridiculous.

The Number one spot at United is a poison chalice, VDS has brought stability and made it his own, no team that has won what United have in the past 2 seasons has room for passengers especially in this position.

yes he made a great save in the champions league final but maybe im being to critical but i taught he should have saved 2 other chelsea penos

good point about the poison chalice

Boggles

{(-_-)}HeadShoT** wrote: »

good point about the poison chalice

Yeah, No way we want to go back to the period beween the big Dane and VDS, it was a terrible terrible time.

Headshot

Boggles wrote: »

Yeah, No way we want to go back to the period beween the big Dane and VDS, it was a terrible terrible time.

Boggles dont remind me

the likes of ****ing bartez in the goal

_blank_

they are on the way back there now, imo.

Foster nor Kuz are good enough.

Headshot

Des wrote: »

they are on the way back there now, imo.

Foster nor Kuz are good enough.

i had high hopes for Foster

but with recent matches,doesnt look good enough

and Kuz will never be first choice

shane86

SantryRed wrote: »

Eh. They do have Foster. Kusckak(however you spell it) too.

Neither are top 4 standard. VDS is what, 39 this year IIRC? Cant surely do more than another two years at a push, he already conceded he was too old for the national team. Man U are spurning a chance to bag one of the games greatest keepers and commited professionals and have him for up to 7 more years. If city bag him they may truly regret this in years to come.

Mind you, I nearly want him with a team with a decent but not stellar defence rather than the brick wall of Rio and Brown (that and I hate to see a player I like sign for Man U ). I want Given to be forced to work a little, keeps him fresh for Ireland duty

cson

I think he's definitely more than good enough to play for a better team than Newcastle with the greatest respect to the Geordies. He's probably a better all rounder than the current 'keepers at Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal although each of the respective 'keepers are better than Shay at some aspect of goalkeeping. The one thing that I will say is, he seems to get injured a lot for a 'keeper.

My opinions on him moving to one of the top 4;

Man Utd - Edwin Van Der Saar: Over the years simply one of the greatest goalkeepers around. I always felt it a shame he ended up at Fulham at a point in his career when he should have been playing with one of the best. However at 39 he has in my opinion only this season left in him at a side like Utd. The errors are creeping in more and more and it was noticeable last year especially. He has the best CB pairing in Vidic and Ferdinand ahead of him. Given would definitely improve the situation, make Utd even more solid at the back and again he has 5 or so years left in him at the top. Positive

Chelsea - Petr Cech: Absolutely unrivalled at his best ~3 years ago. You just couldn't get it past the lad. Again he had a great CB pairing ahead of him in Terry and Carvalho. However his bottle is sadly gone after the Hunt incident. And the one position where bottle is so important is GK. I think over the last 2 seasons he's had a dip in form and I don't think he'll ever get back to the level he was. Of course it doesn't help that the Chelsea defence is very unsettled this season and the likes of Alex and that russian fella aren't in the same league as Terry-Carvalho. Given would arguably improve Chelsea somewhat but again, its very slight and I don't think it would be a good move for him. Negative

Liverpool - José Reina: Very unconvincing when he came over, the lad has come into his own the last 2 seasons and has turned into a decent 'keeper. He's had a decent CB pairings in front of him, though it will be an issue in future for 'Pool with Hyypia and Carragher getting on. He's a fantastic shotstopper but is suspect for crosses all the time when I watch him even though he has gotten better at it. As with Chelsea while I think Shay would represent a minor improvement in GK its much of a muchness. Reina is younger and improving and I don't think Benitez would want to change that. Negative

Arsenal - Manuel Almunia: Has the worst defence of the top 4 in front of him, whatever pairings Arsenal have used at CB the last 2 seasons have been very shaky. While Wenger might change that in January, Almunia contrary to popular belief is imo an excellent 'keeper. He'd be better than Shay at one on ones, shot stopping and decisiveness. He's more commanding too. However, he is a lot more error prone than Shay and is very poor on crosses for a top 4 'keeper. It'd be a good move for Shay and would improve the Arsenal defence 100% if he came along with an experienced CB. Unlikely to materialise though. Positive

As for the other Premiership teams, I think any of the rest would take Shay in an instant. He'd improve the rest of them (and I include Villa and Brad Friedel in that, Shay would have more longevity in him imo).

eirebhoy

Pigman II wrote: »

They play under a different set of rules. Every mistake they make is disected and scrutinised to the point where it makes them look ridiculous and inadequate as keepers.

Shay is in a grand position where he can let in 4 or 5 every game and no one will blame him cos he makes a few saves at a club that hasn't a clue and that nobody cares about. It'd be intesting at least to know how intact his reputation was if he had to play under the same conditions as those other 3.

Wouldn't you think because Given has to do a lot more work than the other keepers that there's more chances for him to make a mistake? When was the last mistake he actually made? Without doubt the least error prone keeper in the league imo and definitely technically as good as the best of them. I couldn't tell you what his organisational skills are like but his managers could and they all rate him in the very top bracket.

gosplan

cson wrote: »

Man Utd - Edwin Van Der Saar: Over the years simply one of the greatest goalkeepers around. I always felt it a shame he ended up at Fulham at a point in his career when he should have been playing with one of the best. However at 39 he has in my opinion only this season left in him at a side like Utd. The errors are creeping in more and more and it was noticeable last year especially. He has the best CB pairing in Vidic and Ferdinand ahead of him. Given would definitely improve the situation, make Utd even more solid at the back and again he has 5 or so years left in him at the top. Positive

cson wrote: »

Over the years simply one of the greatest goalkeepers around.

Rubbish IMO. Was at Fulham because he made too many mistakes at Juventus and they ditched him. Did well at Fulham for a while but was never good enough to be a long-term goalie for a top club. He's always made his fair share of mistakes at Utd but an amazing centre-half pairing have gotten him out of jail on many occasions.

Fergie only went for him as a short-term solution till he could unearth the next Great Dane.

titan18

eirebhoy wrote: »

Wouldn't you think because Given has to do a lot more work than the other keepers that there's more chances for him to make a mistake? When was the last mistake he actually made? Without doubt the least error prone keeper in the league imo and definitely technically as good as the best of them. I couldn't tell you what his organisational skills are like but his managers could and they all rate him in the very top bracket.

How often do Jaaskelainen and Friedel make mistakes.Niemi when he was around,how often did he make mistakes.

None of these keepers are playing in the top 4 and like Given, there is a reason he isnt playing with the bigger clubs.Whether its motivation or something wrong with his keeping skills, i dont know, but none of the managers over the years at the top 4 took a chance on him.

PHB

I'm going to be a bit out there, but I don't think Given is good enough for United.
I think he's certainly better than Almunia, who also isn't good enough for Arsenal. I'd prefer to put my faith in Foster than get Given.
Given is an amazing shot stopper, no doubt about that. But to make it at a top 4 club you need more than that. IMO there's a reason he hasn't moved on yet.

eirebhoy

PHB wrote: »

IMO there's a reason he hasn't moved on yet.

What was the most Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal spent on a keeper? £7m? Given would have easily cost double that at the end of the 05/06 season imo. Now he's 32 and would still probably go for more than £7m.

Charlie

PHB wrote: »

Given is an amazing shot stopper, no doubt about that. But to make it at a top 4 club you need more than that. IMO there's a reason he hasn't moved on yet.

Bull. He has tons more than that. His awareness and reading of a situation is excellent. He's excellent on crosses. Never drops the ball. I could go on.

Foster will be another Scott Carson imo.

The reason why Shay hasn't moved is down to his own choosing.

redout

Fat Pat just said Shay is not a winner !

eirebhoy

redout wrote: »

Fat Pat just said Shay is not a winner !

Dolan doesn't like to agree with the Irish public. The more we worship someone, the more Pat will crititise them. It's not really what he thinks though.

Charlie

eirebhoy wrote: »

It's not really what he thinks though.

which is generally more along the lines of............ 'eatthepuddingeatthepuddingeatthepuddingeatthepuddingeatthepuddingeatthepudding'

titan18

eirebhoy wrote: »

What was the most Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal spent on a keeper? £7m? Given would have easily cost double that at the end of the 05/06 season imo. Now he's 32 and would still probably go for more than £7m.

So why would any of the top 4 sign him then when there are better, younger keepers around than Given.

Pigman II

eirebhoy wrote: »

What was the most Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal spent on a keeper? £7m? Given would have easily cost double that at the end of the 05/06 season imo. Now he's 32 and would still probably go for more than £7m.

Yeah footballs a tough game. Terrible losing out on all those tropies because you're 'too valuable' to play for a winning team. Shay should have started letting in 6 or 7 per game instead of the usual 4-5 and then he might have come down to a price that Man Utd or Chelsea could afford.

Headshot

titan18 wrote: »

So why would any of the top 4 sign him then when there are better, younger keepers around than Given.

experience

thats why VDS was signed

titan18

{(-_-)}HeadShoT** wrote: »

experience

thats why VDS was signed

And again, there are better keepers out there who would bring experience and more talent to a side than Given.

eirebhoy

titan18 wrote: »

So why would any of the top 4 sign him then when there are better, younger keepers around than Given.

Better keepers than Given available? No chance. He's world class. Up there with a select few. I'd go as far as saying he's probably the only keeper in the world that would have made all the 5 saves he did in the first half against Liverpool. Particularly the last one from Lucas' header. A great variation of saves that would test any keeper.

Headshot

titan18 wrote: »

And again, there are better keepers out there who would bring experience and more talent to a side than Given.

who?

redout

titan18 wrote: »

And again, there are better keepers out there who would bring experience and more talent to a side than Given.

Well go name some then.

_blank_

Given isn't tall enough

vds : Height 6 ft 5.5 in (1.97 m)
schmeichel : Height 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in)
Seaman : Height 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m)
Lehman : Height 1.90 m (6 ft 3 in)
Almunia : Height 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m)
James : Height 1.94 m (6 ft 4+1⁄2 in)
Reina : Height 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in)
Cech : Height 6 ft 5 in (1.96 m)

Given : Height 6 ft 1 in (1.85 m)

Frisbee

titan18 wrote: »

And again, there are better keepers out there who would bring experience and more talent to a side than Given.

I can't think of anyone who would bring experience and talent to the side like Shay short of Buffon and Casillas.
Maybe Frey but thats pushing it..

Xavi6

Des wrote: »

Given isn't tall enough

vds : Height 6 ft 5.5 in (1.97 m)
schmeichel : Height 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in)
Seaman : Height 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m)
Lehman : Height 1.90 m (6 ft 3 in)
Almunia : Height 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m)
James : Height 1.94 m (6 ft 4+1⁄2 in)
Reina : Height 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in)
Cech : Height 6 ft 5 in (1.96 m)

Given : Height 6 ft 1 in (1.85 m)

Fabien Barthez - 1.83 m (6 ft 0 in)
Cláudio Taffarel - 1.83 m (6 ft 0 in)
Andreas Köpke - 1.82 m (5 ft 11+1⁄2 in)

All won either a World Cup, European Championship or both.

_blank_

Xavi6 wrote: »

Fabien Barthez - 1.83 m (6 ft 0 in)
Cláudio Taffarel - 1.83 m (6 ft 0 in)
Andreas Köpke - 1.82 m (5 ft 11+1⁄2 in)

All won either a World Cup, European Championship or both.

Taffarel was a brutal 'keeper.

As was Barthez.

Kopke though. Good shout.

Xavi6

Des wrote: »

Taffarel was a brutal 'keeper.

As was Barthez.

Kopke though. Good shout.

Gordon Banks - 6 ft 1 in (1.85 m)

eirebhoy

I don't think height has affected him. If anything he's a lot more agile. I don't think many keepers would have made this save:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgKkRRom7vY

A perfect freekick in a near perfect position.

titan18

Most people on this board are oblivious to football outside of the Premiership so I dont know is it worth my time but in the Premiership itself I'd consider Jaaskelainen and Friedel to be better buys than him although Friedel at this stage may be a bit old.

Now outside of the Premiership, Palop at Sevilla, Julio Cesar at Inter,Frey at Fiorentina,Marco Amelia,Rene Adler,Rensing,Robert Enke,Sergio Asenjo, Akinfeev

Theres a few others aswell.Some of those are young keepers like I mentioned above and others are experienced but I'd take anyone of them over Given.

Tbh, if Man City are interested in buying him,I think it wouldnt be a good move as I think Hart is a very good keeper and they should develop him rather than buy Given.

Xavi6

titan18 wrote: »

Now outside of the Premiership, Palop at Sevilla, Julio Cesar at Inter,Frey at Fiorentina,Marco Amelia,Rene Adler,Rensing,Robert Enke,Sergio Asenjo, Akinfeev

Theres a few others aswell.

Don't trust Brazilian keepers myself. All tend to be dodgy as fook.

Akinfeev is world class and my favourite keeper outside the Premiership. Great man for the oul fantasy leagues.

titan18

Xavi6 wrote: »

Don't trust Brazilian keepers myself. All tend to be dodgy as fook.

Akinfeev is world class and my favourite keeper outside the Premiership. Great man for the oul fantasy leagues.

I agree with you about the Brazilian keepers, but Cesar seems to be a bit different than the others.He may not be good in the Premiership but hes been playing very well with Inter.

eirebhoy

Save from Lucas on 1.10:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiYbV0HJiOQ

Headshot

titan18 wrote: »

Now outside of the Premiership, Palop at Sevilla, Julio Cesar at Inter,Frey at Fiorentina,Marco Amelia,Rene Adler,Rensing,Robert Enke,Sergio Asenjo, Akinfeev

yes some good keepers in there

but i rather have a goal keeper who has experience in the Premier League.
also speaks english

Xavi6

{(-_-)}HeadShoT** wrote: »

yes some good keepers in there

but i rather have a goal keeper who has experience in the Premier League.
also speaks english

How do you know they don't?

Headshot

Xavi6 wrote: »

How do you know they don't?

i dont but id put money on the majority not speaking it

_blank_

I'd hardly call a Donegal accent "English" either.

Charlie

Des wrote: »

I'd hardly call a Donegal accent "English" either.

With a sprinkling of Geordie for good measure.

titan18

{(-_-)}HeadShoT** wrote: »

yes some good keepers in there

but i rather have a goal keeper who has experience in the Premier League.
also speaks english

German and English are incredibly close to each other so it wouldnt take long for any of the Germans to learn it if they dont already know.

So you ignore the other part of my post.Considering that none of the top 4 are pushed for a keeper, and only 2 need to consider buying a keeper,I'd rather take one of the young keepers there.Particualrly in United's case as Van der Sar has another year or two left in him.I dont know enough about Fabianski at Arsenal to know if he's capable of being a number 1 at a top side.

Proof that Youtube can show anything with the right video.

redout

Des wrote: »

Given isn't tall enough

vds : Height 6 ft 5.5 in (1.97 m)
schmeichel : Height 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in)
Seaman : Height 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m)
Lehman : Height 1.90 m (6 ft 3 in)
Almunia : Height 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m)
James : Height 1.94 m (6 ft 4+1⁄2 in)
Reina : Height 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in)
Cech : Height 6 ft 5 in (1.96 m)

Given : Height 6 ft 1 in (1.85 m)

Casillas 6ft 1 in.
Kahn 6 ft 2 in.
Valdes 6ft

Your figures are meaningless.

Charlie

titan18 wrote: »

Proof that Youtube can show anything with the right video.

You do realise that was over 10 years ago. 1 mistake in decade, not bad at all, considering VDS is lucky if he goes 1 match without a clanger.

Bubs101

When Gigi started out with Parma he was tiny as well. Peruzzi is another great keeper who wasn't too tall. Both are out of Shay's league but still

redout

titan18 wrote: »

Most people on this board are oblivious to football outside of the Premiership so I dont know is it worth my time but in the Premiership itself I'd consider Jaaskelainen and Friedel to be better buys than him although Friedel at this stage may be a bit old.

Now outside of the Premiership, Palop at Sevilla, Julio Cesar at Inter,Frey at Fiorentina,Marco Amelia,Rene Adler,Rensing,Robert Enke,Sergio Asenjo, Akinfeev

Theres a few others aswell.Some of those are young keepers like I mentioned above and others are experienced but I'd take anyone of them over Given.

Tbh, if Man City are interested in buying him,I think it wouldnt be a good move as I think Hart is a very good keeper and they should develop him rather than buy Given.

None of that lot you mentioned are elite. Rensing sure was lashed out of it by Beckenbauer about 2-3 weeks ago as not being good enough. The Kaiser himself !

eirebhoy

titan18 wrote: »

Proof that Youtube can show anything with the right video.

11 years ago.

titan18

redout wrote: »

None of that lot you mentioned are elite. Rensing sure was lashed out of it by Beckenbauer about 2-3 weeks ago as not being good enough. The Kaiser himself !

I wouldnt consider Given to be elite either.I was just mentioning keepers who I consider better than him.I think that Adler and Asenjo will be elite though.Frey and Akinfeev are btw

Charlie, I was only pointing out that Youtube can be used to show any keeper as good or bad, in response to some of the posts giving youtube highlights of him.

If Given had gone a few years to one of the bigger clubs, I wouldnt have said anything about it as I think he's a good keeper.I'd have rathered him at United before we signed Van der Sar.I think Almunia is a quality keeper aswell.For the price that would need to be paid for him now, he isnt worth it and most of the others I posted are.

But this is a keeper who has lost his place to Steve Harper over the years.Granted, some of those times were coming back from injury but still he couldnt get his place back into the side automatically.He is a good keeper, not a great keeper.

ibh

Des wrote: »

Given isn't tall enough

vds : Height 6 ft 5.5 in (1.97 m)
schmeichel : Height 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in)
Seaman : Height 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m)
Lehman : Height 1.90 m (6 ft 3 in)
Almunia : Height 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m)
James : Height 1.94 m (6 ft 4+1⁄2 in)
Reina : Height 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in)
Cech : Height 6 ft 5 in (1.96 m)

Given : Height 6 ft 1 in (1.85 m)

Two of the greatest Goalkeepers of all time were around the same height as Given. Renat Dasaev, who some of you may remember from Euro '88 was the USSR keeper.
He's the best GK i have ever seen and he was half an inch taller than Given. I'd take reactions and dexterity ahead of size any day of the week.
The other was also a Russian keeper from 50's and 60's called Lev Yashin. Another unreal keeper.
I wouldn't have James or Almunia in the Dundalk team, so i would be using them as a yardstick!!:D

redout

What about with Ireland ? I never recall him letting us down. He saves us all the time. If not for him we would not have gotten half of the results that we do. The guy is top class. If you cant see that I dont think you are being reasonable.