Shay Given?

titan18

redout wrote: »

What about with Ireland ? I never recall him letting us down. He saves us all the time. If not for him we would not have gotten half of the results that we do. The guy is top class. If you cant see that I dont think you are being reasonable.

Ya,I agree that he's a good keeper, but I dont agree that he's one of the best in the world.I would have him in the top 5 in the Premiership but as no5 behind Cech,Reina,Jussi and Friedel.And I think its a close call between him and Almunia with Hart closing on them.He'd be an improvement over VDS, but I'd rather United bought one of the young keepers I mentioned, in particular Asenjo or Adler and develop one of them behind VDS for a year or two rather than sign Given, due to his age.He isnt old, but I'd give him 5 years left at the top, and would probably come at a high price

eirebhoy

redout wrote: »

What about with Ireland ? I never recall him letting us down. He saves us all the time. If not for him we would not have gotten half of the results that we do. The guy is top class. If you cant see that I dont think you are being reasonable.

Trap rates him as our best player anyway and said he isn't exaggerating by saying Given and Buffon are the 2 best keepers in Europe.

titan18

ibh wrote: »

Two of the greatest Goalkeepers of all time were around the same height as Given. Renat Dasaev, who some of you may remember from Euro '88 was the USSR keeper.
He's the best GK i have ever seen and he was half an inch taller than Given. I'd take reactions and dexterity ahead of size any day of the week.
The other was also a Russian keeper from 50's and 60's called Lev Yashin. Another unreal keeper.
I wouldn't have James or Almunia in the Dundalk team, so i would be using them as a yardstick!!:D

Different eras.Yashin would have been considered as a tall keeper.Best keeper ever though.Given's height aint a problem though

UnitedIrishman

titan18 wrote: »

Ya,I agree that he's a good keeper, but I dont agree that he's one of the best in the world.I would have him in the top 5 in the Premiership but as no5 behind Cech,Reina,Jussi and Friedel.And I think its a close call between him and Almunia with Hart closing on them.He'd be an improvement over VDS, but I'd rather United bought one of the young keepers I mentioned, in particular Asenjo or Adler and develop one of them behind VDS for a year or two rather than sign Given, due to his age.He isnt old, but I'd give him 5 years left at the top, and would probably come at a high price

Almunia and Hart are poor keepers. There's been so much talk about Hart being a future England keeper but he shouldn't even be close only for there is such a lack of decent keepers in the country.

Manuel Neuer and Rene Adler are excellent keepers alright but if I was City or Arsenal I'd be looking to get Shay in. He's like watching Cassilas at times behind that defence.

Xavi6

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Almunia and Hart are poor keepers. There's been so much talk about Hart being a future England keeper but he shouldn't even be close only for there is such a lack of decent keepers in the country.

Ah here ffs Hart is 21 years of age! How many of the world's best keepers were number 1 for their country at that age?

To write him off is ridiculous. Have you watched him play much? He is already one of the best shot stoppers around. Aspects of his game need improving of course but this is only his first full season as number 1 at club level. What do you expect of him?

ibh

titan18 wrote: »

Different eras.Yashin would have been considered as a tall keeper.Best keeper ever though.Given's height aint a problem though

Yea different era's. Although i think GK is the most comparable position for current vs past players.
Most interesting fact about Yashin was that he was also the GK for the Moscow Ice Hockey team and won a Soviet Union championship in that sport!!

Aidric

I would like to have seen Given move from this basket case of a club long ago. I'd seriously question his ambition if he stays put this time.

UnitedIrishman

Xavi6 wrote: »

Ah here ffs Hart is 21 years of age! How many of the world's best keepers were number 1 for their country at that age?

To write him off is ridiculous. Have you watched him play much? He is already one of the best shot stoppers around. Aspects of his game need improving of course but this is only his first full season as number 1 at club level. What do you expect of him?

Yes I've seen quite a bit of him and he just seems laboured and lacking in presence.

OK, fair enough I did exaggerate it a bit much and he no doubt has talent and potential but I just think it'll be the same as it was with Carson and Kirkland. Neither of whom City would take now if they're planning on challenging at the top (which they surely must with the money they have).

Rowley Birkin QC

Another +1 to see Given move to one of the top 4 clubs.

Might have the added bonus of pushing Newcastle closer to the Championship.

herbieflowers

I'd like to see Given end his career on a high. He still has at least two years left at the top of the game. Though I admire his loyalty to Newcastle what was all this about him releasing a statement through Kennedy? Doesn't sound like the kind of thing he'd do.

Quint

Irish people really over rate Given. He's no where nearly as highly rated in England.

Headshot

Quint wrote: »

Irish people really over rate Given. He's no where nearly as highly rated in England.

thats not what i heard on the ssn soccer saturday

they were praising him

ctrl-alt-delete

Quint wrote: »

Irish people really over rate Given. He's no where nearly as highly rated in England.

Listened to a North East phone in on the way home from Sunderland match today, The Newcastle fans that phoned in all had huge praise for Given, Understanding why he would leave - and most stating he is their best player.

I think he is just as highly rated In England as he is here, some sunderland fans even curse losing him all that time ago, i myself a Blackburn fan feel the same.

There is no doubt he is a top class player, he played fantastic against Liverpool and still Newcastle lost 5-1, you can totally understand his anguish at the situation. Given that Ashley now looks like sticking around is one of the main reasons he wants to go i'd say,

When he first joined Newcastle they were considered a club that could go places and he wanted to be part of that, Over the years his loyalty has kept him there as the club have headed towards the path to nowhere they currently lie upon.

I'd love to see him move to a bigger club, he deserves to win something, and he is in his prime now in terms of goalkeeping age. Id rather see him go to Arsenal than Spurs though.

Do arsenal fans want him?

redout

Quint wrote: »

Irish people really over rate Given. He's no where nearly as highly rated in England.

Gerrard called him world-class last weekend ?

Quint

Well from an english football fan that lived in england for the 29 of the last 30 years, i'm telling you my side of things. Gerrard won't say anything controversal in an interview. But I don't think you'll find many english fans, especially non geordies, that rate him alongside Buffon and Casillas. He's an average premiership keeper

redout

I dont think you will find many English fans who rate Buffon and Casillas either ! They never even watch them ffs. Jesus they thought Robinson and James were world class at one stage.

OPENROAD

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

Do arsenal fans want him?

Don't need him, we have Almunia who is just as good imo, problem with us is the players in front of Almunia. General feeling amongst Arsenal fans is that we don't need Given.

ctrl-alt-delete

OPENROAD wrote: »

Don't need him, we have Almunia who is just as good imo, problem with us is the players in front of Almunia. General feeling amongst Arsenal fans is that we don't need Given.

Well thats what i was thinking, was just wondering if Given would be assured a spot in the starting X1 and i don't think he would - but not because i don't think he is better than Almunia

OPENROAD

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

Well thats what i was thinking, was just wondering if Given would be assured a spot in the starting X1 and i don't think he would - but not because i don't think he is better than Almunia

He may well possibly be better than Almunia but not significantly to warrent going out and buying him, think we would be happier to see the money being spent on a centre back.

Mr.Nice Guy

LOL at the comment on Given being an average keeper. He made the PFA Team of the Year in 2002 and 2006 and has had pretty much universal praise heaped on him by all kinds of high profile names in the game. Incidentally he saved Newcastle several times against Hull today according to match reports. Average keeper my arse. Also I've read many comments from English fans over the past few days and the overwhelming majority have rated him very highly.

shane86

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

LOL at the comment on Given being an average keeper. He made the PFA Team of the Year in 2002 and 2006 and has had pretty much universal praise heaped on him by all kinds of high profile names in the game. Incidentally he saved Newcastle several times against Hull today according to match reports. Average keeper my arse. Also I've read many comments from English fans over the past few days and the overwhelming majority have rated him very highly.

Indeed. I think that with the perpetual decline in Irish international football since 2003 (Roy departed, Duff permanently injured, Robbie out of form, the loss of S Ireland) some people here have some sort of inferiority complex in admitting we actually do have a world class keeper. A keeper better on international duty than all but two European keepers. A keeper who is without a shadow of a doubt better than Cech, Reina, VDS in the EPL. The only countries Given would find himself as 2nd choice keeper are Italy and Spain, and at a push he would probably be regularly rotated with Boruc if he were Polish. Apart from that there is not one country in Europe he wouldnt easily get 1st pref keeper.

eirebhoy

Quint wrote: »

Irish people really over rate Given. He's no where nearly as highly rated in England.

We've seen him play maybe 70-80 times more than the average English person.

Boggles

shane86 wrote: »

A keeper who is without a shadow of a doubt better than Cech, Reina, VDS in the EPL.

Without a shadow of a doubt?

I always give more credance to players who have achieved than to players who have the potential to acheive. Simply because one is fact and one is speculation, when it comes down to it.

To make such a sweeping statement is impossible, especially when you consider that alot of football is about confidence, and no more than the position of goal keepers. Pressure and lack of confidence can turn the best shot stoppers into life size cans of WD40.

You cannot dismiss the keepers you mention without doubt, because quite frankly you don't know, nobody does.

Especially VDS, who was winning European Cups when Shay was a trainee and still winning them when Shay is entering what looks like the end of his Newcastle career.

I like Given, he seems like a terrific fella and a very good goal keeper, so much so that he would probably admit himself that you are talking nonsense.

I think it is a testiment to the guy that the majority of Newcastle supporters would wish him the best if he got the move his play and loyalty deserve, but by going to a top 4 team, the level is raised, the margin of error is reduced and everything he does is scrutinised, it is only then can the questions posed and statements spoken on this thread be truly proven.

redout

Boggles wrote: »

Without a shadow of a doubt?

I always give more credance to players who have achieved than to players who have the potential to acheive. Simply because one is fact and one is speculation, when it comes down to it.

I dont agree with that. Look at Alan Shearer as an example, all he ever achieved was one league title yet undoubtably the finest english striker of the past two decades.

Charlie

redout wrote: »

I dont agree with that. Look at Alan Shearer as an example, all he ever achieved was one league title yet undoubtably the finest english striker of the past two decades.

David May>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wor Al (Well, going on success anyway)

Boggles

redout wrote: »

I dont agree with that. Look at Alan Shearer as an example, all he ever achieved was one league title yet undoubtably the finest english striker of the past two decades.

I'd go with Linekar, but thats my personal opinion.

And of course you can throw up exceptions to every rule.

But I stand by it, I always have more respect for people who have actually achieved more than people who have the potential.

Shearer as your example, has been proven at the top top level, so probably not the greatest example.

eirebhoy

Boggles wrote: »

I think it is a testiment to the guy that the majority of Newcastle supporters would wish him the best if he got the move his play and loyalty deserve, but by going to a top 4 team, the level is raised, the margin of error is reduced and everything he does is scrutinised, it is only then can the questions posed and statements spoken on this thread be truly proven.

I'm sure Trap and Kinnear put in just as much analysis on performances as the managers of top clubs and they rate him as best 2 in Europe and best in the premiership "by a mile" respectively. That wasn't just a sweeping statement by either manager as they've actually both said the same thing twice.

People in this thread seem to think Trap is lying. There's no reason for him to (I don't think it really matters to the Irish national team what premiership club our 32 keeper is playing for). If anything I think Trap wants to play down our players by constantly comparing them to Greece when Greece didn't have a Dunne or a Duff or a Keane.

Charlie

Boggles wrote: »

Shearer as your example, has been proven at the top top level, so probably not the greatest example.

Les Ferdinand pretty much won fcuk all during his carear, but I know for sure he would have done it with United, Arsenal or Liverpool.

Boggles

charlie mchugh wrote: »

but I know for sure he would have done it with United, Arsenal or Liverpool.

How do you know for sure?

Charlie

Boggles wrote: »

How do you know for sure?

Because he had everything about him to do it. Just because he didn't play for one of those teams, doesn't mean he wasn't a top striker.

Look at the amount of bogey buys the top 4 managers make. Their transfer buys are certainly not the golden seal of a player being good enough for the top. Likewise the inverse is true, just because they didn't buy a player, is no proof that that player wouldn't have cut it.

Honestly, people put too much emphasis on whether or not a player was bought by Fergie etc. forgetting that players such as Kleberson, Miller, Camara, Cheyrou, Voronin, Jeffers, Wiltord, Reyes, Malouda, Sutton, Smertin, Del Horno etc. we're all signed by these 'big' clubs.

shane86

Boggles wrote: »

Without a shadow of a doubt?

I always give more credance to players who have achieved than to players who have the potential to acheive. Simply because one is fact and one is speculation, when it comes down to it.

To make such a sweeping statement is impossible, especially when you consider that alot of football is about confidence, and no more than the position of goal keepers. Pressure and lack of confidence can turn the best shot stoppers into life size cans of WD40.

Eh? Given plays the same EPL teams twice a year as VDS, Reina, Cech etc etc and usually puts in 110% effort only to be let down by awful defending. It is a bit like saying George Best was rubbish because he never truly got to show his alledged skill by playing international defensive powerhouses like Italy at a tournament. Given is the best in England, and one of the best in Europe, and anyone who believes otherwise is talking out of their arse quite frankly.

Boggles

charlie mchugh wrote: »

Because he had everything about him to do it. Just because he didn't play for one of those teams, doesn't mean he wasn't a top striker.

Your proven my point, by mentioning the purchases that didn't work out. Ferdinand never played for United or Arsenal so you can't be sure.

But think of the strikers that were plying their trade at these clubs that did work out when Les was knocking about.

Hughes
Cantona
Ole
Cole
RVN

Wright
Bergamp
Anelka
Henry

Your dealing with a pretty elite group of strikers, players who have achieved and were bought on the assumption they had the potential to achieve.

I'm not saying Ferdinand wouldn't have worked out, because I don't know, the same as you don't know whether he would have worked, but you are SURE he would have.

Boggles

shane86 wrote: »

Eh? Given plays the same EPL teams twice a year as VDS, Reina, Cech etc etc and usually puts in 110% effort only to be let down by awful defending. It is a bit like saying George Best was rubbish because he never truly got to show his alledged skill by playing international defensive powerhouses like Italy at a tournament. Given is the best in England, and one of the best in Europe, and anyone who believes otherwise is talking out of their arse quite frankly.

I'm basing my opinions on fact and achievement, there is really only one persons arse flapping TBH as your whole agruement is based on your opinion.

redout

When you said.

Boggles wrote: »

I always give more credance to players who have achieved than to players who have the potential to acheive. Simply because one is fact and one is speculation, when it comes down to it.

I presumed that you were referring to honours won which in that case would make Shearer a prime example for myself to disagree with you.

Boggles wrote: »

I'd go with Linekar, but thats my personal opinion.

And of course you can throw up exceptions to every rule.

But I stand by it, I always have more respect for people who have actually achieved more than people who have the potential.

Shearer as your example, has been proven at the top top level, so probably not the greatest example.

Boggles

redout wrote: »

When you said.



I presumed that you were referring to honours won which in that case would make Shearer a prime example for myself to disagree with you.

Not really, comparing a striker to a goalkeeper is tough at the best of times.

Shearer has won team and personal honours (something his position allowed), he has been tested and proven at the top, your example is poor, if he had never won a prem trophy or was in the race a couple of times your example would have more weight behind it, unfortunately it doesn't.

shane86

Boggles wrote: »

I'm basing my opinions on fact and achievement, there is really only one persons arse flapping TBH as your whole agruement is based on your opinion.

Fair enough.

Time to start a thread "Would George Best and Ryan Giggs have been found out at a world cup?". As obviously, by your reckoning, they would have.

Laughable typical blinkered nonsense you could only get off a Man U head :rolleyes: Id put it down to sore feelings that he never joined your mob, as I very much doubt he was never approached at some point between Schmichael and VDS.

Boggles

shane86 wrote: »

Laughable typical blinkered nonsense you could only get off a Man U head :rolleyes: Id put it down to sore feelings that he never joined your mob, as I very much doubt he was never approached at some point between Schmichael and VDS.

Well done. :rolleyes:

Because as VDS was reaching out to save that peno that won the European Cup for United I could not get it out of my head how sad I was that Fergie never signed Shay Given.

Your either slow, drunk or typing from a secure location, which ever your talking through your hoop.

shane86

Whatever. Anyone with a half clue knows he is the best in England, and nearly the best in Europe. Im not going to bother having brick wall arguements with someone who probably thinks Anderson is a great player. :pac:

ArmaniJeanss

I'm an exKeeper (low-level obviously, about 4 divisions below LOI).

There are basically two different types of 'good' goalkeeper.

1. Theres the bloke who thrives as a shotstopper - he works best in the teams in the lower half of the table, the opposition attempt to pass the ball through his defence and the majority of his work is stopping shots which come at the end of passing moves.
When he is in possession of the ball his job is often to slow the game down, or launch the ball into the opponents half either to chase goals or just get it into a safe area.

2. The big-team goalkeeper - the opposition are generally not good enough to pass the ball through his defence or generate shooting positions, so his job is generally just to defend corners, long throws, and general kitchen-sink-style-chuck-it-in-there-and-hope-for-a-rebound attacking.
When in possesion of the ball his job is to speed the game up, launch counter attacks with accurate kicking/throwing, or feed the ball to defenders/defensive midfielders to create attacks.

They are two very different types of goalkeeping (though obviously there is some overlap) and there is no guarantee that a keeper who has proved himself in teams in the first example will also be a success in the second type of team.

noodler

Nice opinions.

It is stupid to judge Given on what might be rather than on what you see week in-week out.

He plays for a better defence for Ireland by the way and is never found wanting.

redout

Boggles wrote: »

Not really, comparing a striker to a goalkeeper is tough at the best of times.

Shearer has won team and personal honours (something his position allowed), he has been tested and proven at the top, your example is poor, if he had never won a prem trophy or was in the race a couple of times your example would have more weight behind it, unfortunately it doesn't.

Well if you had of explained yourself better when you wrote the original paragraph then it would not have been confusing in the first place. It most certainly could have been wrote more clear and concise. Shaerer having won one trophy in his career by the way is pitiful, hardly a major achievemet and is a good example.

Boggles

redout wrote: »

Well if you had of explained yourself better when you wrote the original paragraph then it would not have been confusing in the first place. It most certainly could have been wrote more clear and concise. Shaerer having won one trophy in his career by the way is pitiful, hardly a major achievemet and is a good example.

Sorry Redout in future I will breakdown what I type in Blue under the original post, just for you little fella!

Davei141

shane86 wrote: »

Whatever. Anyone with a half clue knows he is the best in England, and nearly the best in Europe. Im not going to bother having brick wall arguements with someone who probably thinks Anderson is a great player. :pac:

Oh god. That rubbish is straight from the Richard Dunne is a world class centre back train of thought. Take off your Irish specs for gods sake. "Anyone with half a clue knows he is the best in England, nearly Europe". Give me a break.

noodler

Maybe you have an Irish inferiority complex?

In terms of shot stopping he is up there. I think it is unfair to say he would be crap in a better defence cos he would get less practice, I mean that is an assumption.

Anyway, like I said, he is outstanding for Ireland in any case-a team better defensively than Newcastle.

shane86

Davei141 wrote: »

Oh god. That rubbish is straight from the Richard Dunne is a world class centre back train of thought. Take off your Irish specs for gods sake. "Anyone with half a clue knows he is the best in England, nearly Europe". Give me a break.

Green specs my arse. It isnt an opinion- it is a fact. And it wouldnt make a gee hair of a difference if he was from Moldova and I was from Albania. As said previously, the amount of negativity we have put up with over the years has seemingly left poor downtrodden Paddy unable to remember we actually do have one world class player.

Come to think of it it nearly wouldnt surprise me if Fergie is hoping he can get him on the cheap. If he bids now Newky know they can easily extort 16-20 million. Let the likes of Arsenal and Spurs put in their poxy 7m bids, then out do them by an extra 4 or 5 million at the 11th hour. Too late for Newcastle to start extorting, yet they cant turn down the lure of an extra 5 million.

Mr Alan

shane86 wrote: »

Come to think of it it nearly wouldnt surprise me if Fergie is hoping he can get him on the cheap.

pretty sure Ferguson has said in the past he doesn't think he's tall enough to be at the top level for a goalie.

redout

OMG the height crap again. Was this not put to rest yesterday !

Mr Alan

its not my opinion Redout, in fact i believe if you look back over this thread i was among the first to discredit the "he's not tall enough" myth.....but that was the reasoning used by Fergie a few years ago iirc.

Charlie

Mr Alan wrote: »

pretty sure Ferguson has said in the past he doesn't think he's tall enough to be at the top level for a goalie.

So presumably he would turn down Iker as well if he we're offered him?

Mr Alan

i'm not sure Charlie, you'll have to ask Whiskeynose himself.