Protests over Gaza deaths at 5PM Today (Monday) outside Israeli Embassy..

The Mighty Ken

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

the world's oldest religion, one which states in it's first commandment that thou shalt not kill would actually commit genocide while the rest of the world looks on and America gives it's full suppoort, is completely abhorrent... That's just sillyness and belongs in the conspiracy theories forum

You're right. I don't know why the Israelis don't just load the remaining Palentinians up onto cattle trains and send them off to purpose built concentration camps for gassing. Now, where did I leave my tinfoil hat?

The Mighty Ken

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

Proof?

Or is it just that you have been watching too much Rupie tv?

Google is your friend. As is Wikipedia.

Dudess

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

How dare you say anything bad about the Jews. That makes you anti-semetic and a racist and a holocaust denier. You and your like sicken me and my uber trendy left wing leanings.

Israel apologists tend not to be left-wing though... moreso no-nonsense hardline conservatives who want to teach those pinkos a thing or two - "so let's support any cause that pisses off the Left"... There are probably plenty of anti-semitic ***** who claim to back Israel - because it means socking it to the PC brigade.

The Mighty Ken

Dudess wrote: »

Israel apologists tend not to be left-wing though... moreso no-nonsense hardline conservatives who want to teach those pinkos a thing or two - "so let's support any cause that pisses off the Left"... There are probably plenty of anti-semitic ***** who claim to back Israel - because it means socking it to the PC brigade.

Dangerous assumptions and even more dangerous labelling to be perfectly honest. I think you'll find that quite a few people are a mixture of many of these tags. As for genuine anti-semites - I don't think I've ever actually met anyone that was dumb enough to admit it. Anybody that labels someone an anti-semite due to their anger at Israeli military policy is... well you could only call someone like that stupid.

anonymous_joe

Dudess wrote: »

Israel apologists tend not to be left-wing though... moreso no-nonsense hardline conservatives who want to teach those pinkos a thing or two - "so let's support any cause that pisses off the Left"... There are probably plenty of anti-semitic ***** who claim to back Israel - because it means socking it to the PC brigade.

I always seem to get the impression though that a lot of people support one side over the other for reasons that often ignore those causing the trouble in the first place.

What's happening in Palestine is tragic, and both sides are doing terrible things.

Terry

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

You're right. I don't know why the Israelis don't just load the remaining Palentinians up onto cattle trains and send them off to purpose built concentration camps for gassing. Now, where did I leave my tinfoil hat?

How many dead people make a genocide?

I actually don't think there is a number for it myself, or a percentage.
I'm of the opinion that the mass murder of one people by another is genocide regardless of the numbers.

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Google is your friend. As is Wikipedia.

Wow. Search engines when I actually asked for actual links.
If you go back a page or two, you'll see that I asked the same of someone who disagrees with your point of view, but they actually did provide direct links for their arguement.

Dudess wrote: »

Israel apologists tend not to be left-wing though... moreso no-nonsense hardline conservatives who want to teach those pinkos a thing or two - "so let's support any cause that pisses off the Left"... There are probably plenty of anti-semitic ***** who claim to back Israel - because it means socking it to the PC brigade.

Ahh, they're all *****.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I always seem to get the impression though that a lot of people support one side over the other for reasons that often ignore those causing the trouble in the first place.

What's happening in Palestine is tragic, and both sides are doing terrible things.

The way I see it is that the Palestinians were underthe rule of an occupying empire.
Said empire decided that it would be ok to move them from their homes and put Jewish people there.

The Palestinians decided to fight back and were then seen as the bad guys.

The Mighty Ken

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

How many dead people make a genocide?

I actually don't think there is a number for it myself, or a percentage.
I'm of the opinion that the mass murder of one people by another is genocide regardless of the numbers.

So, in theory, the Palestinians are guilty of genocide as well.

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

Wow. Search engines when I actually asked for actual links.

I've proven my point. Like it or lump it.

Dudess

Nothing strange about that.

My mate's family also moved here from Israel when she was a kid and she's so gentle and pacifist... except when it comes to Israel's atrocities against the Palestinians. She's patriotic to the point of rather fanatical.

GirlInterrupted

Dudess wrote: »

Nothing strange about that.

My mate's family also moved here from Israel when she was a kid and she's so gentle and pacifist... except when it comes to Israel's atrocities against the Palestinians. She's patriotic to the point of rather fanatical.

Its easy to understand where they're coming from when you consider that they're a tiny country surrounded by enemies. The seige mentality makes them insular and defensive, and fanatically patriotic.

Poccington

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

Its easy to understand where they're coming from when you consider that they're a tiny country surrounded by enemies. The seige mentality makes them insular and defensive, and fanatically patriotic.

Well said that lady.

Terry

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

So, in theory, the Palestinians are guilty of genocide as well.

Nope.
Those defending their homes against an aggressive invader are never guilty of genocide.

I've proven my point. Like it or lump it.

The point that you can use google?
Point proven. FACT!

The Mighty Ken

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

Nope.
Those defending their homes against an aggressive invader are never guilty of genocide.

According to the UN, only 55-80 of the 325 estimated dead are civilians. Now I don't know how accurate the UN are with this figure at the moment but you can assume, as they're vehemently opposed to the Israeli action, that there's no bias towards the Israelis. At this stage it could be argued that the majority of those killed were the same folk firing rockets at innocent civilians.

I know you want to believe that Israel are evil, aggressive, murderous invaders and the Palestinians are innocent, freedom-loving freedom fighters but that's simply not the case. My own personal opinion is that they're as bad as each other but obviously there are innocent people involved on both sides which is sad.

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

The point that you can use google?
Point proven. FACT!

If you need more solid, relevent evidence then read the Hamas Charter.

Terry

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

According to the UN, only 55-80 of the 325 estimated dead are civilians. Now I don't know how accurate the UN are with this figure at the moment but you can assume, as they're vehemently opposed to the Israeli action, that there's no bias towards the Israelis. At this stage it could be argued that the majority of those killed were the same folk firing rockets at innocent civilians.

I know you want to believe that Israel are evil, aggressive, murderous invaders and the Palestinians are innocent, freedom-loving freedom fighters but that's simply not the case. My own personal opinion is that they're as bad as each other but obviously there are innocent people involved on both sides which is sad.



If you need more solid, relevent evidence then read the Hamas Charter.

Personally I don't give a flying **** what the Palestinians do.

They are under occupation by an invading force and are entitled to do whatever it takes to get rid of said force.

I can tell you now that I wouldn't sit back and be segregated, bombed to bits, left without food & water & electiricty and just smile and say 'hey, everythings ok. They UN will look after us'. Besides, we don't belong here. The British said that this is actually Israeli land, so we should just move along and give away our land to people who willingly left here 2,000 years ago.

What the **** do we know? We're only sand monkeys after all.

It's ok that the Israelis are throwing us out of our homes, knocking them down and throwing us into a wasteland. They deserve to live here for some reason..

The Mighty Ken

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

Personally I don't give a flying **** what the Palestinians do.

Clearly not. Do you think that 'Israel must be wiped off the map'?

The Saint

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Clearly not. Do you think that 'Israel must be wiped off the map'?

Do you not think that both sides should live in peace based on the internationally recognised 1967 border in accordance with international law and Isreal should stop settling people on Palestinian territory in violation of the forth Geneva convention, Security Council and General Assembly resolutions and the 2004 International Court of Justice advisory opinion?

The Mighty Ken

The Saint wrote: »

Do you not think that both sides should live in peace based on the internationally recognised 1967 border in accordance with international law and Isreal should stop settling people on Palestinian territory in violation of the forth Geneva convention, Security Council and General Assembly resolutions and the 2004 International Court of Justice advisory opinion?

I do actually. Now if <3BeingIN6th would like to respond...

Black Swan

These different religio-political groups have been happily fighting over the same little piece of turf for thousands of years. Islam, Jew, Christian, plus a few earlier polytheistic religions. They all claim it belongs to them, they are right, and the other side is wrong. The only common theme is that (sadly) innocents die on all sides as the result of the power struggle between their power-greedy, self-righteous religio-political leaders, who all claim that God (or the gods) are on their side, and the other side (or sides) are evil. Of course, you rarely see any of these leaders in the front lines of battle, but they are willing to send the sons (and sometimes daughters) of their followers to death, consoling them that they will earn entry to the happy hunting ground, heaven, paradise, or whatever myth is consistent with their current belief system. Sad commentary on the state of human affairs?

phenomenon

Why can't the Palestinians just move to another Arab land if they're so unhappy in the Gaza strip and West Bank? Although the term Palestinian doesn't mean anything. The people of the Middle East are all Arabs and share the same language, religion and culture.
Just because the British drew a few lines on the map doesn't make the people on one side of the line another ethnicity. I mean the borders are so artificial - literally straight lines dividing the land into seperate "countries" where Kurds are clumped together with Arabs and Sunnis are merged with Shi'ites.

Israel isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The Palestinans can accept the current situation and live on their autonomous regions in peace with Israel or they can move elsewhere in the Middle East and reunite with their brothers.

Zebra3

phenomenon wrote: »

Why can't the Palestinians just move to another Arab land if they're so unhappy in the Gaza strip and West Bank? Although the term Palestinian doesn't mean anything. The people of the Middle East are all Arabs and share the same language, religion and culture.
Just because the British drew a few lines on the map doesn't make the people on one side of the line another ethnicity. I mean the borders are so artificial - literally straight lines dividing the land into seperate "countries" where Kurds are clumped together with Arabs and Sunnis are merged with Shi'ites.

Israel isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The Palestinans can accept the current situation and live on their autonomous regions in peace with Israel or they can move elsewhere in the Middle East and reunite with their brothers.

Why the **** should they?

Do we just give into ethnic cleansing and land grabbing?

Nodin

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

And yours is utterly nonsensical.

If that refers to my use of known and verifiable facts as oppossed to taking out of context one religons holy book, then you've a strange definition of nonsense.

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Never said they do all follow it to the letter but the literal effect is there whether you like it or not..

Not in any great degree. There are real world issues driving many of the conflicts involving muslims. Blaming it all on the Koran is a relatively recent ploy.

phenomenon wrote:

Why can't the Palestinians just move to another Arab land if they're so unhappy in the Gaza strip and West Bank?..

So if I come round and chuck bricks at your house and the police don't come, the right thing for you to do is to leave....Great stuff.

phenomenon wrote:

Although the term Palestinian doesn't mean anything. The people of the Middle East are all Arabs and share the same language, religion and culture. ?..

So now that we're speaking english and have a great deal in common with the Brits, we should just give up the independence idea.....

phenomenon wrote:

The Palestinans can accept the current situation and live on their autonomous regions in peace with Israel or they can move elsewhere in the Middle East and reunite with their brothers...

What about Israel stopping trying to colonise outside its borders...?

My name is Mud

Funny thing is that if no religon existed, none of this would be happening.

Regardless of the Israeli's using excessive force, or Hamas hiding in Palenstinian civillian centres, all this bloodshed stems from religon.

Load of cock it is really.

Daithinski

If you are disgusted by the policies of the Israeli Government.
Boycott Israeli made produce. I know I will be.

(Even though I don't think that Israel will change its murderous ways over me not buying their tomatoes, its the principle of the thing!)

The Mighty Ken

Nodin wrote: »

If that refers to my use of known and verifiable facts as oppossed to taking out of context one religons holy book

'Out of context'? I'm sorry but what part of...

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme."

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it."

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly."

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends"

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme."

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..."

...do you you not understand? What exactly is there to take out of context? It all looks like pretty opaque rhetoric to me.

The Mighty Ken

Nodin wrote: »

There are real world issues driving many of the conflicts involving muslims.

Relative conflicts with Muslims, yeah. Let's have just a brief look at some of them:

Chechnya and the Caucasus, Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan, Indonesia, Xingjiang, Kashmir, Southern Thailand... to name but a few.

Every pub they walk into, they seem to get into a punch up. Either there's a conspiracy against them...

Dudess

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

Personally I don't give a flying **** what the Palestinians do.

I wouldn't be with you on that one. The killing of innocent Israelis is reprehensible. And it's not like it's going to improve things. Hamas are doing their own people a huge disservice.

I can tell you now that I wouldn't sit back and be segregated, bombed to bits, left without food & water & electiricty and just smile and say 'hey, everythings ok. They UN will look after us'. Besides, we don't belong here. The British said that this is actually Israeli land, so we should just move along and give away our land to people who willingly left here 2,000 years ago.

What the **** do we know? We're only sand monkeys after all.

It's ok that the Israelis are throwing us out of our homes, knocking them down and throwing us into a wasteland. They deserve to live here for some reason..

That's the thing I keep asking Israel apologists over in Politics - to put themselves in Palestinian shoes: would they be ok with it? Strangely I haven't got an answer, apart from the odd "I wouldn't vote for a murderous government" or "I'd feel we were bringing it on ourselves". Obviously those responses are from people who aren't really putting themselves in Palestinian shoes.

The Mighty Ken

Dudess wrote: »

That's the thing I keep asking Israel apologists over in Politics - to put themselves in Palestinian shoes: would they be ok with it? Strangely I haven't got an answer, apart from the odd "I wouldn't vote for a murderous government" or "I'd feel we were bringing it on ourselves". Obviously those responses are from people who aren't really putting themselves in Palestinian shoes.

I think you'll find most "Israeli apologists" (a silly tag for someone who doesn't agree with your views) are most likely people who believe in a two state solution. If the Palestinians want to achieve that, they'll have to try and bargain for it peacefully. Whether or not you believe the Israelis will let them and there is in fact a total genocide going on, what chance do they have under such overwhelming odds? Nay, there is no genocide. Only a weak enemy who refuse to stop their po-faced attacks on a country that they feel has no right to even exist. If you were a citizen of that country, how would you react?

Nodin

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

'Out of context'? I'm sorry but what part of...(.........)
...do you you not understand? What exactly is there to take out of context? It all looks like pretty opaque rhetoric to me.

Nothing out of context below. All pretty opaqe to me.

1. Not to turn a city to idolatry Ex. 23:13
2. To burn a city that has turned to idol worship Deut. 13:17
3. Not to rebuild it as a city Deut. 13:17
4. Not to derive benefit from it Deut. 13:18
5. Not to missionize an individual to idol worship Deut. 13:12
6. Not to love the idolater Deut. 13:9
7. Not to cease hating the idolater Deut. 13:9
8. Not to save the idolater Deut. 13:9
9. Not to say anything in the idolater's defense Deut. 13:9
10. Not to refrain from incriminating the idolater
11. hang those stoned for blasphemy or idolatry

1. Destroy the seven Canaanite nations Deut. 20:17
2. Not to let any of them remain alive Deut. 20:16
3. Wipe out the descendants of Amalek Deut. 25:19
4. Remember what Amalek did to the Jewish people Deut. 25:17
5. Not to forget Amalek's atrocities and ambush on our journey from Egypt in the desert Deut. 25:19
6. Not to dwell permanently in Egypt Deut. 17:16
7. Offer peace terms to the inhabitants of a city while holding siege, and treat them according to the Torah if they accept the terms Deut. 20:10
8. Not to offer peace to Ammon and Moab while besieging them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot

See how easy that one is? Do you want to go for the Sikhs, Hindus and the christians next?

While you're at it, you might do me a favour and explain to me why the Koran is the problem, and not 40 years of occupation and settlement by the Israeli state...

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Chechnya and the Caucasus, Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan, Indonesia, Xingjiang, Kashmir, Southern Thailand... to name but a few

Chechnya was trying to free itself from Russian domination.

Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan are tribal regions where infighting is a way of life - Saudi wahabaism backed by the US didn't help matters.

Kashmir was given to India against the will of the vast majority of its people, and India has refused a plebiscite ever since.

I find it bizarre that somebody who is supposedly "defending" Israel is recycling anti-semtic crap formerly used against Jews to slander muslims (the evil religon and 'trouble wherever they go' line).

Highsider

Daithinski wrote: »

If you are disgusted by the policies of the Israeli Government.
Boycott Israeli made produce. I know I will be.

(Even though I don't think that Israel will change its murderous ways over me not buying their tomatoes, its the principle of the thing!)

I've already being doing that for years. Anyone with a heart will do the same.

Terry

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

I do actually. Now if <3BeingIN6th would like to respond...

Shít. Sorry. I went to bed. I'll try to stay up and take part in this riveting debate tonight.

To answer your question, no I don't think Israel should be wiped off the map.
They need to stop screwing around though.

The Mighty Ken

Nodin wrote: »

Nothing out of context below. All pretty opaqe to me.

It's all nonsense to me. I'm agnostic. I wouldn't claim that any organised mass fantasy is any better or worse than any other.

Nodin wrote: »

While you're at it, you might do me a favour and explain to me why the Koran is the problem, and not 40 years of occupation and settlement by the Israeli state...

I wouldn't say the Koran was the problem in this case. I would say Hamas, the ruling party, have a charter which doesn't recognise the Israeli state or say anything about a two state solution and continue to attack Israel.

Nodin wrote: »

Chechnya was trying to free itself from Russian domination.

It's been under Russian control since the 1500's and, if anything, Christian and Hindu before that. I don't see why there are so many Muslims fighting for its control and, indeed, calling unspeakable and barabaric acts of terror in its neighbouring states.

Nodin wrote: »

Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan are tribal regions where infighting is a way of life

Ah that's okay so. Born to kill. Lovin' it.

Nodin wrote: »

Kashmir was given to India against the will of the vast majority of its people, and India has refused a plebiscite ever since.

Fighting for disputed lands again. Fair enough.

Nodin wrote: »

I find it bizarre that somebody who is supposedly "defending" Israel

I'm not. It's not a black and white argument to me.

Nodin wrote: »

is recycling anti-semtic crap formerly used against Jews to slander muslims (the evil religon and 'trouble wherever they go' line).

I've never heard the 'trouble wherever they go' line to be honest - maybe you're spending too much time with bigots. Nor am I saying that Muslims are fundamentally evil people. They're human beings of course; like Christian, Jews or Hindus - possibly all misguided by religion. However, all evidence points to an endemic barbarism no matter how much you apologise for the sheer terror that the extremists in their ranks are inflicting all across the globe.