Protests over Gaza deaths at 5PM Today (Monday) outside Israeli Embassy..

OK-Cancel-Apply

Poccington wrote: »

Ok, I'll put things in perspective then.

There's a conflict going on, that has gone on throughout history.... It involves 2 states to which I don't belong or have any particular love for, over a piece of land that is in reality of no massive importance to me and will continue on for many years to come.

Somewhere in that piece of land, lies the body of one of my comrades. One of the many men that served before me and someone that put his own life on the line to actually help people, rather than sit behind a computer giving out about evil Israeli's, evil Palestinians etc. Now whilst he was over there actually doing some good, he was kidnapped and presumably murdered by Palestinians. It's been over 20 years and his body still has not been returned, he still hasn't gotten the proper burial that he deserves and his family still have not gotten their son back.

Now personally, Kevin Joyce is more important to me than the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. The fact I've seen people say "So what if they kidnapped an Irish soldier" honestly sickens me. For the life of a young man that served his country to be disregarded in such a way, is unbelievable and unforgiveable in my eyes. I'll say no more on the subject because at this moment in time, I'm disgusted and quite angry.

Well good for you!! You don't give a flying **** about the rest of the world, but as soon as ONE MAN that shares your ****ing NATIONALITY is kidnapped, THEN you have something to say, right?

Did you give a shyt about the South African apartheid? Or did you just keep score of how many IRISH people were affected? Or maybe Nazi Germany was really nobody's business, right?

You're disgusted..? You know what disgusts me? Your fake indignation. Don't give me this 'comrade who served before me' bull****. Did you know this man? Or do you only care about what happens to people in the Irish armed forces? Do you just gloss over everything that happens in the world the doesn't have some personal significance to you, or that has no tie to Ireland? Do you give a damn about anything I highlighted in my previous posts? Israel's illegal military occupation and slaughter? Racist laws?? Ethnic cleansing?

The manner in which you belittle people who are GENUINELY disgusted by the behaviour of the 'Evil Israelis', as you said, is truly sickening. That and the whole "I buddied around with the IDF, therefore Israel does no wrong" attititude. Like I said, you might have a very different attitude had you been there in 2006, when Israel dropped 4,000,000 ILLEGAL cluster bombs indiscriminately on South Lebanon, and blew them back to the stone age.

Mikel

Mikel wrote: »

Absolutely 100% false.
You can argue all you like about who is in the right and you'll never get people here to change their minds, but suicide bombings are not 'guerilla tactics commonly employed by inferior military forces', they are terrorism, plain and simple.

Damn right it's a pejorative term.
Should we not be pejorative about organisations which strap explosives to people and send them on suicide missions?
How about our friends in the IRA who would force innocent people to drive a car filled with explosives into a checkpoint.

If you can't be pejorative about that kind of nihilistic barbaric behaviour then how are you supposed to treat it?
Why should it be avoided?

This is where the moral equivocation leads.

Fighter pilots on both sides of WWII regularly crashed their planes into enemy targets if they ran out of fuel or ammunition or were damaged in some way. This is suicide bombing. Certainly the modern act of purposefully strapping an explosive to oneself to detonate it in a public place seems barbaric but you are looking at it solely from your own moral perspective. From theirs I suspect it is quite different; though I do not seek to speak for Palestinian morality.

Just because Israel does things the way we like them to be done while Palestine uses tactics which can be painted as "barbarous" or "terrorism" does not make the loss of human lives on either side less tragic or reprehensible. For you to say that the way the Palestinians go about murdering is worse than the Israeli's is really a damning indictment of your own thought process.

Poccington

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Well good for you!! You don't give a flying **** about the rest of the world, but as soon as ONE MAN that shares your ****ing NATIONALITY is kidnapped, THEN you have something to say, right?

Did you give a shyt about the South African apartheid? Or did you just keep score of how many IRISH people were affected? Or maybe Nazi Germany was really nobody's business, right?

You're disgusted..? You know what disgusts me? Your fake indignation. Don't give me this 'comrade who served before me' bull****. Did you know this man? Or do you only care about what happens to people in the Irish armed forces? Do you just gloss over everything that happens in the world the doesn't have some personal significance to you, or that has no tie to Ireland? Do you give a damn about anything I highlighted in my previous posts? Israel's illegal military occupation and slaughter?

The manner in which you belittle people who are GENUINELY disgusted by the behaviour of the 'Evil Israelis', as you said, is truly sickening. That and the whole "I buddied around with the IDF, therefore Israel does no wrong" attititude. Like I said, you might have a very different attitude had you been there in 2006, when Israel dropped 4,000,000 ILLEGAL cluster bombs indiscriminately on South Lebanon, and blew them back to the stone age.

Apartheid? I was too young to even know what Apartheid was when it was actually happening. Do I think it was wrong? Of course I do but once again I was way too young for it to have any real effect on me. As for Nazi Germany, there's a slight difference between what took place then and what is taking place right now, you're merely trying to make your post a little bit more dramatic by making comparisons like that.

Did I know the man!? Do you any ****ing Palestinians directly hurt in the bombings? Any South Africans directly affected by Apartheid? Any ****ing Jews killed during the Holocaust!? Get a ****ing grip!

Kevin Joyce was part of the very organisation that I serve, he is another example of the sacrifice the Defence Forces has made for other countries, he made the ultimate sacrifce doing a job that most of the same people who cry about how evil the world is would never have the bottle to do. You're damn ****ing right I consider him my comrade and you're damn ****ing right his kidnap and murder mean more to me than what's happening between Israel and Palestine right now. You can act as self righteous as you like but one of my own people means more to me than strangers on the other side of the world. It may seem cold but it's a simple fact of life, what's happening over there isn't right but neither is the family of one of my comrades being left waiting for over 20 years just to get their sons body back.

My apologies if I refuse to wail and moan about Israels carry on but guess what? Hamas is far from innocent either. In the conflict between those 2 states, neither side is guilt free. The carry on of both sides is far from right but I'm not gonna join in with everyone giving it loads about how bad Israel is while they brush off Hamas' actions. Don't like it? Tough ****. I'd also love to see where I said Israel do no wrong, I'm sure it'd make for an interesting read :rolleyes:

Mikel

Deleted User wrote: »

Certainly the modern act of purposefully strapping an explosive to oneself to detonate it in a public place seems barbaric but you are looking at it solely from your own moral perspective.

That is a very revealing sentence.
'Seems barbaric'
When you have got to the point where you are afraid to make a moral judgement on someone strapping explosives, to a pregnant woman iirc, and sending them into a public place filled with civilians, because it would be from your own 'moral perspective' then you really have to look at yourself imo.
An indictment of my thought process........ indeed

Manic Moran

I'm going to disagree with you, Mairt. There's nothing wrong with suicide attacks in and of themselves. It's just a delivery system. They're something of a mark of desperation, but deliberately aiming yourself at the enemy with the intent of 'taking a few of them with you' is anything but a new idea, and indeed most countries have awarded their greatest medals of valour for such actions. In the rare events that organised suicide attacks were conducted, such as the Japanese in WWII, they were considered a sign of desperation but not condemned in and of themselves.

The difference is simply choice of target. When Islamic Jihad (or Hezbullah, depending on who you ask) drove their truck bombs into the US Marine Barracks in 1983 killing 241 Marines and 58 French soldiers, there is no doubt that this was a valid military target. USS Cole, same thing. Given that the effect is going to be more psychological than militarily effective in those cases (it's not as if the US Navy was going to become incapable due to a destroyer being damaged) you can argue that it was a form of terrorism, but not one which was illegal.

On the other hand, when the delivery system is used to deliberately blow up a bunch of people shopping in the local market or having coffee, that goes from a military action to a criminal act. If the objective of that act is to achieve a political goal, then it becomes terrorism as it is commonly understood.

As for us being impartial.

Apart from implimenting UN resolutions 425 and 426 we brought humanitarian assistance to villages all accross our area of operations, regardless of the villages loyalties, or religions.

You may have considered yourselves impartial, but obviously the people targetting you considered you an obstacle worth attacking, and you were part of a military force. UN sponsored or not.

NTM

Mikel

Mikel wrote: »

That is a very revealing sentence.
'Seems barbaric'
When you have got to the point where you are afraid to make a moral judgement on someone strapping explosives, to a pregnant woman iirc, and sending them into a public place filled with civilians, because it would be from your own 'moral perspective' then you really have to look at yourself imo.
An indictment of my thought process........ indeed

I am not afraid to make a personal moral judgment at all, but what I feel about these actions makes no difference. The reason I phrased it thus was to show that we need to look at these things from the perspective of the people who partake in these actions and judge them accordingly. Not just their mindset or their morality but the circumstances which lead them to such terrible acts.

I do not think that strapping a bomb to a pregnant woman is anything other than tragic and inhumane, but so is giving a gun to an 18 year old kid and training him to kill other human beings. The taking of a human life, regardless of how it is done, is terrible. To say one method or technique for killing is worse than another is inhumane in my opinion. Certainly some are more emotive than others (the pregnant woman example stirs the blood up to be sure) but when we accept any loss of human life as being "better" or "justified" then we reach a level of barbarism I am not willing to accept.

Jesus1222

tallaght01 wrote: »

I keep saying this, but why do people think the Israeli population allow their ogvernment to do the things they do?

Why do people think the Palestinians vote basically a militia into government.

It's because they're all scared, and both sides feel victimised, and feel like their backs are against the wall.

You can spend all the time you like in Palestine and you'll see some nasty stuff by the IDF.

If you spend time with enough Israelis who are scared to get onto a bus or to go to a mall, or have had relatives blown up, then you'll get another side to all of this.

But at the end of the day it's all about fear. It's also about anger. When one side stops the violence for long enough for the other side to stop being afraid, then the conflict will stop.

That's what the guys who go on these protests don't realise.

They're clueless about human nature. All they care about is their image

Absolute b0ll0x. Anybody with half a brain can see both sides, they just want it to stop, in this case stopping Israel murdering hundreds of people. Gaza is basically defenceless. These rockets are an act of complete desperation. Nobody in their right mind wouldn't acknowledge bus bombings and nightclub bombings, except they don't happen anymore. Stop touting armchair psychology as some sort of analysis. I've never read such rubbish. There are quite specific causes of this conflict which don't require much analysis or thought at all.

Jesus1222

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I always seem to get the impression though that a lot of people support one side over the other for reasons that often ignore those causing the trouble in the first place.

What's happening in Palestine is tragic, and both sides are doing terrible things.

Except it's completely asymmetric. Palestinians are penned into what is effectively 2 densely populated prison camps, their resources are taken, what land they have is being stolen for a second time, they have to ask permission of an occupier to do almost anything (including until the recent past construct anything), they have no freedom of movement, they get beaten and shot at by soldiers and settlers seemingly just for fun on occasions, they have little food, little water, little education, little electricity, no money. The PLO are hopelessly corrupt, the alternative Hamas, nobody will talk to because they won't "recognise" Israel (how you can recognise a country with no established borders is a question I bet nobody can answer). So when some of them fire Halloween bangers into fields in Israel a response on this scale is justified? A full scale invasion and a mass bombing campaign?

It's sickening. It's also a criminal act.

Hamas has offered Israel a long-term ceasefire and negotiations (a provisional recognition of Israel itself), but Israel refuses. The situation is the mirror image of the impression you're given on Sky News.

Don't take my word for it. Google it for yourself.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm going to disagree with you, Mairt. There's nothing wrong with suicide attacks in and of themselves. It's just a delivery system. They're something of a mark of desperation, but deliberately aiming yourself at the enemy with the intent of 'taking a few of them with you' is anything but a new idea, and indeed most countries have awarded their greatest medals of valour for such actions. In the rare events that organised suicide attacks were conducted, such as the Japanese in WWII, they were considered a sign of desperation but not condemned in and of themselves.

The difference is simply choice of target. When Islamic Jihad (or Hezbullah, depending on who you ask) drove their truck bombs into the US Marine Barracks in 1983 killing 241 Marines and 58 French soldiers, there is no doubt that this was a valid military target. USS Cole, same thing. Given that the effect is going to be more psychological than militarily effective in those cases (it's not as if the US Navy was going to become incapable due to a destroyer being damaged) you can argue that it was a form of terrorism, but not one which was illegal.

On the other hand, when the delivery system is used to deliberately blow up a bunch of people shopping in the local market or having coffee, that goes from a military action to a criminal act. If the objective of that act is to achieve a political goal, then it becomes terrorism as it is commonly understood.



You may have considered yourselves impartial, but obviously the people targetting you considered you an obstacle worth attacking, and you were part of a military force. UN sponsored or not.

NTM

Ok I think we have our wires crossed. Your reading me as someone making military talk simple for civilians but I agree with you completely. We could discuss military tactics and blind them all with our bullsh*t, but what would be the point in that.

I've always considered armies are legitimate targets for any kind of operation, be it the British forces in Northern Ireland, the Americans in Iraq or us Irish had we out stayed our welcome in Lebanon.

But the Palestinians, and indeed the majority of the Arab world consider each and every Israeli as a military target, no matter sex, age or indeed religion!. And that I can't find justification for, there's nothing desparate about their tactics its just that their tacics suit their situ.

I'll repeat what I said earlier, 'in war not every action has an opposite and equal reaction' so when Hamas, PLO, PA, Amal, Hezbollah etc take a poke at a hornets nest don't I don't want to see them run crying to me.

Manic Moran

Fair enough. Maybe I misunderstood you.

NTM

arybvtcw0eolkf

Manic Moran wrote: »

Fair enough. Maybe I misunderstood you.

NTM

Probably because I was drunk as a lord last night too

Run_to_da_hills

Israeli leaders have rejected an immediate 48-hour pause in fighting and will push ahead with the devastating air offensive against the Palistianan people in Gaza despite calls from around the world including the EU. This says a lot about the country. Death toll now at 384 and rising.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5irLPqJrPJIoKfmTvJSp5tYWOSMNg

Canis Lupus

Mairt wrote: »

But the Palestinians, and indeed the majority of the Arab world consider each and every Israeli as a military target, no matter sex, age or indeed religion!. And that I can't find justification for, there's nothing desparate about their tactics its just that their tacics suit their situ.

I agree. I've an Israeli mate who was minding his own business on the tube when someone asked him if he was Israeli. When he said yes he was told that the "arab world will rise up and wipe Israel from the face of the earth".

Just randomly.... from a stranger.....

I won't claim to understand the conflict but from chatting to people when I was over there there is a deep deep seated mistrust and hate on both sides. I heard another story of a guard on the border and there used to be an arab kid they'd play with going back and forth. They'd give him sweets etc. One they they just randomly stopped him and he was carrying explosives and possibly had been for a long time. By being nice they'd possibly helped hurt Israelis.

My own uneducated guess is that most people in Israel do their time in the army. They are put in **** places and see the worst of the arabs and therefore hate them. Likewise the arabs in Palestine are in pretty **** conditions and in turn hate the Israelis. It's a vicious circle particularly when EVERY soldier I spoke to felt the same way.

There is no easy out especially when Israel is surrounded by hostile nations. Personally if I was in control of Israel and someone was lobbing rockets etc into my land (and I don't care if they are hitting fields) I'd **** em up. Disproportionate response my ass. You can't poke a tiger with a stick for long and expect to get away with it.

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

but they have no petrol for generators ?
well thats what they would have you to believe

oh hang on now weve gone to a few hours a day whats next the secret esb line thats helping keep the struggle :rolleyes:

The black market is always able to get things in firstly.

Secondly, the UN has stated that they are very very short on supplies and not that they are non-existent. So please stop trying to make out that people are lieing about the blockade. What the UN has said has been pretty accurate and you just seem to be inventing a different position to argue from.

Also, who are the "they" you keep referrinig to? Hamas or the UN? I have always referred to the UN and what they have been saying in the media, which has been accurate. Just because you want to pretend they are saying things they haven't doesn't make it so.

Are the UN and pretty much the entire media lieing or something? I personally find that hard to believe.

The Saint

Canis Lupus wrote: »

There is no easy out especially when Israel is surrounded by hostile nations.

Sorry can't let this slide again. I've said it repeatedly. Since 2002 all 22 members of the have offered Israel a full peace agreement with normalisation of relations in return for Israel complying with its obligations under international law. Israel already have peace agreements with two of the three states it went to war with in 48, 67 and 73. Israel has not been directly attacked by any state in the region (bar Iraq in 1991 with a few scuds) since 1973.

arybvtcw0eolkf

The Saint wrote: »

Israel already have peace agreements with two of the three states it went to war with in 48, 67 and 73. .

IT didn't GO to war in 1948.

On the eve of its independence the state of Israel was attacked by five of its Arab neighbours and has been defending itself ever since.

And since 1973 is been attacked continually from various sections inside Lebanon, all backed up by the Russians, Syrians, Iranians, Iraq's etc who all know that to launch a 'proper' war against the Israeli state would mean more defeat.

OK-Cancel-Apply

Poccington wrote: »

Apartheid? I was too young to even know what Apartheid was when it was actually happening. Do I think it was wrong? Of course I do but once again I was way too young for it to have any real effect on me. As for Nazi Germany, there's a slight difference between what took place then and what is taking place right now, you're merely trying to make your post a little bit more dramatic by making comparisons like that.

It's all TOO similar. Checkpoints - people arrested for being the wrong race at the wrong. It's more similar to South Africa with segregated 'Jews Only' streets and racist laws.

Did I know the man!? Do you any ****ing Palestinians directly hurt in the bombings? Any South Africans directly affected by Apartheid? Any ****ing Jews killed during the Holocaust!? Get a ****ing grip!

I'm trying to figure out why you value the life of this one man over THOUSANDS.

Kevin Joyce was part of the very organisation that I serve, he is another example of the sacrifice the Defence Forces has made for other countries, he made the ultimate sacrifce doing a job that most of the same people who cry about how evil the world is would never have the bottle to do. You're damn ****ing right I consider him my comrade and you're damn ****ing right his kidnap and murder mean more to me than what's happening between Israel and Palestine right now. You can act as self righteous as you like but one of my own people means more to me than strangers on the other side of the world. It may seem cold but it's a simple fact of life, what's happening over there isn't right but neither is the family of one of my comrades being left waiting for over 20 years just to get their sons body back.

What a pile of shyt. If he didn't want to die, he shouldn't have joined the f\/cking ARMY. Killing and dying is in the job description. People don't join because they have 'more bottle' than everyone else. You know what takes bottle? Standing up to a vast, US-backed military machine against all odds to resist injustice. How much bottle does it take for an IDF soldier to gun down a Palestinian CHILD who throws a rock at his tank?

Why don't you examine you principals - ONE man in the Irish army is more important to you than the entire conflict. Why don't you go over to a Palestinian refugee camp and tell them how their problems pale in comparison those of everyone who loses sleep over Kevin Joyce. You must be on valium worrying about the lives of soldiers the world over eh??

My apologies if I refuse to wail and moan about Israels carry on but guess what? Hamas is far from innocent either. In the conflict between those 2 states, neither side is guilt free. The carry on of both sides is far from right but I'm not gonna join in with everyone giving it loads about how bad Israel is while they brush off Hamas' actions. Don't like it? Tough ****. I'd also love to see where I said Israel do no wrong, I'm sure it'd make for an interesting read :rolleyes:

What 2 states? There's no such 'state' as Palestine. There USED to be a place where the Palestinians lived, but they have been PUSHED OUT, and they still have keys in their pockets to houses that are now occupied by somebody else. That place is now called Israel. The Palestinians live in camps in the surrounding areas, including the most densely populated strip of land on earth - the Gaza strip. The conflict will go on, because Israel won't stop the violence (yes, THEY started it, believe it or not)

The Saint

Mairt wrote: »

IT didn't GO to war in 1948.

On the eve of its independence the state of Israel was attacked by five of its Arab neighbours and has been defending itself ever since.

And since 1973 is been attacked continually from various sections inside Lebanon, all backed up by the Russians, Syrians, Iranians, Iraq's etc who all know that to launch a 'proper' war against the Israeli state would mean more defeat.

Hmm. There was a war in 48, thats what I'm saying. I didn't say they started it (although the declaration of a state by a non-indigenous population could be seen as tantamount to a declaration of war but lets not get into the sematics). Israel could have had a peace agreement with Egypt in 1971 but refused to accept it. This would have made the 1973 war highly unlikely since Egypt was the most militarily powerful Arab state in the region. Doubtful Syria and Jordan would have gone to war without Egypt. Also Israel attacked Egypt in 1956.

I also stated that Israel had not gone to war with, or been attacked by any state since 1973. This is true. I'm not talking about assymetrical guerilla conflicts.

Terry

With regards to calling Hamas terrorists, I wouldn't label anyone fighting to free their country of an occupting force a terrorist.

Before anyone asks, the North is a different situation.

It sickens me when I hear a news report about soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan or whereever being killed by terrorists.

If you invade a country, you can expect the natives to fight back.
There's no point in whining like little bitches when they do fight back.

You cannot invade any country and expect the natives to roll over and thank you for bombing the place to crap.

We might as well rewrite history and label the Apaches as terrorists.

arybvtcw0eolkf

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

With regards to calling Hamas terrorists, I wouldn't label anyone fighting to free their country of an occupting force a terrorist.

.

Normally I don't disagree with you, but this time your wrong.

Before the 1967 war (The Six Day War) Gaza was part of Egypt, occupied by Palestinians.

It was captured by Israel, and held onto. Under the Camp David agreement vast tracts of captured Egyptian lands were handed bak to Egypt, but the Egyptians didn't want Gaza.

Afterwards it was occupied by Israel until its withdrawal in Aug or September 2005 (I work from memory and not google so forgive me if my dates are out slightly).

So Gaza is not occupied by anyone other than Palestinians, and the blockade of Gaza is enforced by Egypt also, not just the Israeli's.

arybvtcw0eolkf

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

It's all TOO similar. Checkpoints - people arrested for being the wrong race at the wrong. It's more similar to South Africa with segregated 'Jews Only' streets and racist laws.

I'm trying to figure out why you value the life of this one man over THOUSANDS.

What a pile of shyt. If he didn't want to die, he shouldn't have joined the f\/cking ARMY. Killing and dying is in the job description. People don't join because they have 'more bottle' than everyone else. You know what takes bottle? Standing up to a vast, US-backed military machine against all odds to resist injustice. How much bottle does it take for an IDF soldier to gun down a Palestinian CHILD who throws a rock at his tank?

Why don't you examine you principals - ONE man in the Irish army is more important to you than the entire conflict. Why don't you go over to a Palestinian refugee camp and tell them how their problems pale in comparison those of everyone who loses sleep over Kevin Joyce. You must be on valium worrying about the lives of soldiers the world over eh??



What 2 states? There's no such 'state' as Palestine. There USED to be a place where the Palestinians lived, but they have been PUSHED OUT, and they still have keys in their pockets to houses that are now occupied by somebody else. That place is now called Israel. The Palestinians live in camps in the surrounding areas, including the most densely populated strip of land on earth - the Gaza strip. The conflict will go on, because Israel won't stop the violence (yes, THEY started it, believe it or not)

I see you state your location as 'The lonely street of dreams'... :rolleyes:

brianthebard

Mairt wrote: »

Normally I don't disagree with you, but this time your wrong.

Before the 1967 war (The Six Day War) Gaza was part of Egypt, occupied by Palestinians.

It was captured by Israel, and held onto. Under the Camp David agreement vast tracts of captured Egyptian lands were handed bak to Egypt, but the Egyptians didn't want Gaza.

Afterwards it was occupied by Israel until its withdrawal in Aug or September 2005 (I work from memory and not google so forgive me if my dates are out slightly).

So Gaza is not occupied by anyone other than Palestinians, and the blockade of Gaza is enforced by Egypt also, not just the Israeli's.

Hamas are fighting to free their country, I don't see how he's wrong. You think the Gaza strip is a legitimate arrangement to hold over a million people? You think the Israeli blockade and barriers is legitimate? I don't, and most people in Gaza don't I'll bet.

Terry

Mairt wrote: »

Normally I don't disagree with you, but this time your wrong.

Before the 1967 war (The Six Day War) Gaza was part of Egypt, occupied by Palestinians.

It was captured by Israel, and held onto. Under the Camp David agreement vast tracts of captured Egyptian lands were handed bak to Egypt, but the Egyptians didn't want Gaza.

Afterwards it was occupied by Israel until its withdrawal in Aug or September 2005 (I work from memory and not google so forgive me if my dates are out slightly).

So Gaza is not occupied by anyone other than Palestinians, and the blockade of Gaza is enforced by Egypt also, not just the Israeli's.

Just highlighting a few key words there.

Ciaran500

Is Hamas still firing rockets into Israel?

The Saint

Mairt wrote: »

Normally I don't disagree with you, but this time your wrong.

Before the 1967 war (The Six Day War) Gaza was part of Egypt, occupied by Palestinians.

It was captured by Israel, and held onto. Under the Camp David agreement vast tracts of captured Egyptian lands were handed bak to Egypt, but the Egyptians didn't want Gaza.

Its a bit misleading to say that Egypy didn't want Gaza. There's a whole section of the Camp David agreement that deals with it stating that it was to become self governing and autonomous with the withdrawl of Israeli military and civilian structures from the West Bank and Gaza and within three years a final status agreement should be in place. This didn't happen. Israel didn't abide by this section of the agreement and remains in violation of the Camp David accords.

Mairt wrote: »

Afterwards it was occupied by Israel until its withdrawal in Aug or September 2005 (I work from memory and not google so forgive me if my dates are out slightly).

So Gaza is not occupied by anyone other than Palestinians, and the blockade of Gaza is enforced by Egypt also, not just the Israeli's.

Israel withdrew but kept control of Gaza's airspace, borders and coastline. It controls who goes in a who comes out. It controls imports of food, medicine and fuel. In my opinion this is still occupation and there are many who would agree with me including most human rights organizations.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Is Hamas still firing rockets into Israel?

Yes, they hit a kindergarden in Beersheba this morning.

Terry, to the victor goes the spoils. War is a nasty business, countries lose lands, resources and people. But te point is, Israel is not occupying Gaza (unless the ground offensive has begun) any more.

And another thing, when Gaza was Egyptian and the West Bank was Jordanian why didn't the Palestinians fight for a homeland then?.

You know the Lebanese hate the Palestinians too, why?. Because they tried to terrorise the Lebanese and wanted Lebanon as their homeland.

When they (the PLO) were chased out of Lebanon and fled to Tripoli, the Libyans welcomed them, until the PLO tried to over throw the Libyans.

The Palestinians also tried setting up a Pal state in Jordan, people here love to Google - google Black September.

There's a reason why Arab states won't act against Israel re. the Palestinian issue, the Arabs don't want them either.

No one wants them because they're trouble, and they'll always be trouble..

Unfortunetly a lot of Irish people here can't see past their nose's when it comes to the Pal issue, liking it somehow to events in Northern Ireland and our struggle for a country. Of which the Pals didn't mind exploiting either when they exchanged training methods with the IRA.

People think the IRA only went to Columbia to train terrorists, not a chance. They done a fine job training PLO fighters too.

History shows that the Palestinians will try set up a homeland anywhere, they're traditionally a nomadic people who've never settled and never set boundaries or borders on their movements until the formation of the PLO in 1964.

munchester29

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

It's all TOO similar. Checkpoints - people arrested for being the wrong race at the wrong. It's more similar to South Africa with segregated 'Jews Only' streets and racist laws.

Not really that similar, and Israel does have over a million Israeli Arabs that mostly have the same rights and same obligations as the Jewish citizens of Israel.
Also, two completely different conflicts – the black population in South Africa never announced that they are going to kill all the white population of SA, they never announced that the whites have no right to exist, they never sent suicide bombers against the whites, never fired rockets and mortar shells on them either.
That said, there is a difference between a checkpoint used to humiliate and subject people, and a checkpoint used to protect your country from suicide bombers and murderers.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

I'm trying to figure out why you value the life of this one man over THOUSANDS.

Probably because of the same reason why most people would rather have their family saved over strangers – your loyalty is for your own first. The value of my child’s life is much higher to me than the value of 100 dead terrorists.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

What a pile of shyt. If he didn't want to die, he shouldn't have joined the f\/cking ARMY. Killing and dying is in the job description. People don't join because they have 'more bottle' than everyone else. You know what takes bottle? Standing up to a vast, US-backed military machine against all odds to resist injustice. How much bottle does it take for an IDF soldier to gun down a Palestinian CHILD who throws a rock at his tank?

Let’s follow the same lines of your logic here:
If the Hamas terrorists didn’t want to die, they shouldn’t have joined the Hamas.
If the Palestinians didn’t want to die, they shouldn’t have elected the Hamas to be their representing government.
If the Palestinians didn’t want their children to die from IDF attacks, they would have kept them locked inside their houses, instead of allowing them to go out and throw rocks at soldiers.

As for IDF soldiers gunning down Palestinian children who throw rocks at their tanks – I never heard of such incidents. I’d love a link if it’s possible.
I have seen footage of Palestinian children climbing tanks with the soldiers doing nothing though.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Why don't you examine you principals - ONE man in the Irish army is more important to you than the entire conflict. Why don't you go over to a Palestinian refugee camp and tell them how their problems pale in comparison those of everyone who loses sleep over Kevin Joyce. You must be on valium worrying about the lives of soldiers the world over eh??

Nothing wrong with the guy’s principals – your own people count more than someone else. Otherwise, I’m sure there are Palestinian refugees who would love living in your house instead of you and your family, or maybe a group of travellers. I mean – how can you sleep soundly at night knowing there are so many homeless people sleeping in the streets of Dublin?

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

What 2 states? There's no such 'state' as Palestine. There USED to be a place where the Palestinians lived, but they have been PUSHED OUT, and they still have keys in their pockets to houses that are now occupied by somebody else. That place is now called Israel. The Palestinians live in camps in the surrounding areas, including the most densely populated strip of land on earth - the Gaza strip. The conflict will go on, because Israel won't stop the violence (yes, THEY started it, believe it or not)

So, the Palestinians were pushed out, and they have a right to return.
The Jews were pushed out of Israel a bit earlier (Roman times), but they have no right to return?

And I agree with you – the conflict will go on, mainly because Hamas has never given up on his goals – taking over the whole of Israel, establishing yet another fundamentalist Muslim state with no Jews in it, or with the Jews subjugated.
Not really surprising why the Israelis don’t accept this benevolent Hamas offering.

arybvtcw0eolkf

The Saint wrote: »

Its a bit misleading to say that Egypy didn't want Gaza. There's a whole section of the Camp David agreement that deals with it stating that it was to become self governing and autonomous with the withdrawl of Israeli military and civilian structures from the West Bank and Gaza and within three years a final status agreement should be in place. This didn't happen. Israel didn't abide by this section of the agreement and remains in violation of the Camp David accords.

Ehud Baraks government were moving swiftly towards those goals until Arafat kicked off the second intifada, they brought this on themselve for crying out loud.

The Saint wrote: »

Israel withdrew but kept control of Gaza's airspace, borders and coastline. It controls who goes in a who comes out. It controls imports of food, medicine and fuel. In my opinion this is still occupation and there are many who would agree with me including most human rights organizations.

Any Brussels controls ours!... Ok thats a bit tongue in cheek but if I had a terrorist state on my doorstep I'd want to control what goes in and out of it too.

I firmly believe that Arafat caused the Palestinians soo much hurt, misery and heart ache, and I do believe that Ehud Barak would have gave the Pals an autonomous homeland.

But like I said, Arafat threw it all back in his face.

Arafat was the cause of Sharon being elected, he left the Israeli people no other option than to vote in an extrem hardliners like Sharon.

You seem well up on Israeli affairs, so you must remember Baraks election promise - peace with Lebanon and peace with the Palestinians. He withdrew his troops from Lebanon, eventually complying with UN resolutions 425 and 426 and was moving towards an autonomous Pal state, you can not deny this.

I was in Lebanon when Arafat threw it all away, even the Lebanese were tearing their hair out at what the Palestinian authority were doing.

It was madness, it truely was.

munchester29

Mairt wrote: »

Yes, they hit a kindergarden in Beersheba this morning.

Terry, to the victor goes the spoils. War is a nasty business, countries lose lands, resources and people. But te point is, Israel is not occupying Gaza (unless the ground offensive has begun) any more.

And another thing, when Gaza was Egyptian and the West Bank was Jordanian why didn't the Palestinians fight for a homeland then?.

You know the Lebanese hate the Palestinians too, why?. Because they tried to terrorise the Lebanese and wanted Lebanon as their homeland.

When they (the PLO) were chased out of Lebanon and fled to Tripoli, the Libyans welcomed them, until the PLO tried to over throw the Libyans.

The Palestinians also tried setting up a Pal state in Jordan, people here love to Google - google Black September.

There's a reason why Arab states won't act against Israel re. the Palestinian issue, the Arabs don't want them either.

No one wants them because they're trouble, and they'll always be trouble..

Unfortunetly a lot of Irish people here can't see past their nose's when it comes to the Pal issue, liking it somehow to events in Northern Ireland and our struggle for a country. Of which the Pals didn't mind exploiting either when they exchanged training methods with the IRA.

People think the IRA only went to Columbia to train terrorists, not a chance. They done a fine job training PLO fighters too.

History shows that the Palestinians will try set up a homeland anywhere, they're traditionally a nomadic people who've never settled and never set boundaries or borders on their movements until the formation of the PLO in 1964.

You are correct. The bottom line since the camp david talks is thatIsrael offered time and time again that Egypt assumes control over the Palestinians in Gaza, and that Jordan will assume control over the Palestinians in the west bank.
Both Egypt and Jordan basically stepped on each other's toes while trying to leave the room as quickly as possible...

It's funny, how every country who has direct dealings with the Palestinians doesn't want anything to do with them - Israel, Egypt, Jordan, even Syria & Lebanon. Maybe they know something that we don't?

brianthebard

Mairt wrote: »

Ehud Baraks government were moving swiftly towards those goals until Arafat kicked off the second intifada, they brought this on themselve for crying out loud.





Any Brussels controls ours!... Ok thats a bit tongue in cheek but if I had a terrorist state on my doorstep I'd want to control what goes in and out of it too.

Hold on Israel was created against the wishes of the majority of the population of the region and then expanded into other territories, takes land from the palestinians while we speak and builds barriers around Palestinian villages, but Palestine is the terrorist state?

arybvtcw0eolkf

brianthebard wrote: »

Hold on Israel was created against the wishes of the majority of the population of the region and then expanded into other territories, takes land from the palestinians while we speak and builds barriers around Palestinian villages, but Palestine is the terrorist state?

Sorry but I can't grasp your logic, I won't be replying to you on this issue any longer.

brianthebard

:rolleyes:

I'm sure you grasp my logic quite well, you just can't find a way of legitimising the Israeli state.

The Saint

Mairt wrote: »

Ehud Baraks government were moving swiftly towards those goals until Arafat kicked off the second intifada, they brought this on themselve for crying out loud.

The Camp David accords were signed in 1979. The second intifada started in 2000 after. A lot more than the three years specified in the accords. Also there are many reasons why the second intifada happened. Blaming Arafat completely is naive.

Mairt wrote: »

Any Brussels controls ours!... Ok thats a bit tongue in cheek but if I had a terrorist state on my doorstep I'd want to control what goes in and out of it too.

Fine, thats your opinion but it still doesn't stop it being occupation with the occupying force having obligations to the civilians.

Mairt wrote: »

I firmly believe that Arafat caused the Palestinians soo much hurt, misery and heart ache, and I do believe that Ehud Barak would have gave the Pals an autonomous homeland.

But like I said, Arafat threw it all back in his face.

Arafat was the cause of Sharon being elected, he left the Israeli people no other option than to vote in an extrem hardliners like Sharon.

What was offered at Camp David was not an offer. This was acknowledged by the Israelis since the reason they went on to Taba. Shlomo Ben Ami, the Israeli foreign minister during the negotiations even said that if he was a Palestinian he wouldn't have accepted what was on offer at Camp David. At Taba the main sticking point was Jerusalem. The talks ended (there are differing reasons about who left first) but Barak left to return to the Israeli election campaign. Taking international law and obligations into account during the whole Oslo peae process it was the Palestinians who made all of the concessions. Oh yeah, and Arafat was a sh1t leader for the Palestinians.

Mairt wrote: »

You seem well up on Israeli affairs, so you must remember Baraks election promise - peace with Lebanon and peace with the Palestinians. He withdrew his troops from Lebanon, eventually complying with UN resolutions 425 and 426 and was moving towards an autonomous Pal state, you can not deny this.

I was in Lebanon when Arafat threw it all away, even the Lebanese were tearing their hair out at what the Palestinian authority were doing.

It was madness, it truely was.

I don't deny that Israel withdrew from Lebanon. It's a fact even if it was a bit late. See I like to deal with facts and I won't dispute clear facts. It's the unsubstantiated crap that gets peddled that I have an issue with.

The Saint

Mairt wrote: »

Yes, they hit a kindergarden in Beersheba this morning.

Appalling behaviour. Damn shame.

Mairt wrote: »

Terry, to the victor goes the spoils. War is a nasty business, countries lose lands, resources and people. But te point is, Israel is not occupying Gaza (unless the ground offensive has begun) any more.

Not under international law they don't. It would also set a very dangerous precident. In 1967 when Israel captured these lands it was not the Palestinians who attaked Isreal. It was Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Under international law Israel has no right to an inch of the West Bank, Gaza or East Jerusalem. I've addressed the occupation issue earlier.

Mairt wrote: »

And another thing, when Gaza was Egyptian and the West Bank was Jordanian why didn't the Palestinians fight for a homeland then?

Maybe when they were occupied by the Jordanians and Egyptians they weren't being ethnically cleansed from the land and life pretty much carried on as before. Anyhow, if I had been alive during this occupation I would have protested that too.

Mairt wrote: »

You know the Lebanese hate the Palestinians too, why?. Because they tried to terrorise the Lebanese and wanted Lebanon as their homeland.

Yes I'm well aware that the Palestinians were less than popular in Lebanon especially in regard to the PLO. But you have to ask why there were so many Palestinians in Lebanon in the first place. Might have something to do with the 700,000 refugees expelled or dislocated by Israel.

Mairt wrote: »

When they (the PLO) were chased out of Lebanon and fled to Tripoli, the Libyans welcomed them, until the PLO tried to over throw the Libyans.

That's the PLO, not the Palestinian people.

Mairt wrote: »

The Palestinians also tried setting up a Pal state in Jordan, people here love to Google - google Black September.

That was the PLO again not the Palestinian people and again you have to wonder why there are so many Palestinian refugees in Jordan. See above.

Mairt wrote: »

There's a reason why Arab states won't act against Israel re. the Palestinian issue, the Arabs don't want them either.

Arab states have rteated the Palestinians appallingly. However the reason they won't act against Israel is because it is pointless. They won't win in a conflict. They've also called for a comprehensive peace agreement with Israel on a number of occasions.

Mairt wrote: »

No one wants them because they're trouble, and they'll always be trouble..

Sorry but thats a disgraceful remark. If I said something like that about Jews then I'd be labelled an anti-semite, and rightfully so. So were they all trouble before 1948 and before the refugee issue?

Mairt wrote: »

History shows that the Palestinians will try set up a homeland anywhere, they're traditionally a nomadic people who've never settled and never set boundaries or borders on their movements until the formation of the PLO in 1964.

This has already been debunk in the thread in politics. It's nonsense. I've posted demographic statistics from the region from the 16th century showing how most of the population of Palestine was either settled in towns or made their living from agriculture therefore necessitating them to be settled.

OK-Cancel-Apply

munchester29 wrote: »

Not really that similar, and Israel does have over a million Israeli Arabs that mostly have the same rights and same obligations as the Jewish citizens of Israel.
Also, two completely different conflicts – the black population in South Africa never announced that they are going to kill all the white population of SA, they never announced that the whites have no right to exist, they never sent suicide bombers against the whites, never fired rockets and mortar shells on them either.
That said, there is a difference between a checkpoint used to humiliate and subject people, and a checkpoint used to protect your country from suicide bombers and murderers.

You're going to need very good evidence if you are implying something similar has been said about Israeli Jews.

Probably because of the same reason why most people would rather have their family saved over strangers – your loyalty is for your own first. The value of my child’s life is much higher to me than the value of 100 dead terrorists.

And what about the women and children? Most of the people who suffer at the hands of the Israelis are NOT MEMBERS OF HAMAS.

If you're saying that people who voted for Hamas as their only hope against their oppression deserve to die, then you have some ****ed up morals.

Let’s follow the same lines of your logic here:
If the Hamas terrorists didn’t want to die, they shouldn’t have joined the Hamas. If the Palestinians didn’t want to die, they shouldn’t have elected the Hamas to be their representing government.

They voted for Hamas because they promised to keep fighting the illegal occupation and violent oppression. Who would YOU have voted for in their place?

If the Palestinians didn’t want their children to die from IDF attacks, they would have kept them locked inside their houses, instead of allowing them to go out and throw rocks at soldiers.

As for IDF soldiers gunning down Palestinian children who throw rocks at their tanks – I never heard of such incidents. I’d love a link if it’s possible.
I have seen footage of Palestinian children climbing tanks with the soldiers doing nothing though.

It was on the news on the 1990's. I can't find the link, but there are plenty of similar stories:

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1466

Nothing wrong with the guy’s principals – your own people count more than someone else. Otherwise, I’m sure there are Palestinian refugees who would love living in your house instead of you and your family, or maybe a group of travellers. I mean – how can you sleep soundly at night knowing there are so many homeless people sleeping in the streets of Dublin?

Sorry, I don't follow the comparison.

So, the Palestinians were pushed out, and they have a right to return.
The Jews were pushed out of Israel a bit earlier (Roman times), but they have no right to return?

Who are 'The Jews'? All you have to do to get immigrate to Israel is convert to Judaism. How do people from Europe, Asia and Africa all supposedly come from the same country?

People who immigrate to Israel are not coming from refugee camps were they have been forces, with the keys to their old houses.

The people who immigrated to Israel to form the top levels of power were the Ashkenazi Jews. The are white Slavic and Germanic European converts to Judaism, with no ancestral link to the middle east whatsoever.

And I agree with you – the conflict will go on, mainly because Hamas has never given up on his goals – taking over the whole of Israel, establishing yet another fundamentalist Muslim state with no Jews in it, or with the Jews subjugated.
Not really surprising why the Israelis don’t accept this benevolent Hamas offering.

You've got a vivid imagination.

The truth is, the Palestinians aren't even asking for their whole country back - they're simply asking for the Israelis to return to their internationally agreed 1967 borders. Don't bother mentioning the surrender terms of Camp David - that offer was for a few small disconnected patches of land, which was designed to be rejected.

All Israel has to do is stop breaking international law, end the occupation. Peace will come when there is JUSTICE.

AARRRGH

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

the Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign.

I was a member of that group when they began. I ran their website and went to all their meetings etc.

I left them when I realised most of its members are simply angry people (people who are angry with their lives) who don't really care about Palestinians - they just use them as a way to direct their anger at the world.

This is very apparent when you realise most of these same people will protest anything - they go on all the marches, protests, etc. It doesn't matter what it's about. They just want to be angry.

It's all a bit of a fraud and not something I would get involved with again.

...

/Supports the Palestinian cause

munchester29

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

You're going to need very good evidence if you are implying something similar has been said about Israeli Jews.

Just read the Hamas charter. Article 7, for example. I’m sure I don’t need to supply you with the link

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

And what about the women and children? Most of the people who suffer at the hands of the Israelis are NOT MEMBERS OF HAMAS.

Most of the people who suffer at the hands of the Israelis are Hamas terrorists.
Most of the Palestinians (including women and children) suffer because of Hamas.
Israel goes out of its way to minimize collateral damage. Unfortunately, when Hamas intentionally fires rockets and mortars from schools, hospitals, etc - at times even firing from within the civilian population itself, when Israel fires back innocents are hurt.

In addition – most of the Israelis who suffer by the hands of Hamas are not soldiers. Hamas target civilians purposefully, and over 700,000 Israelis are within range of their rockets. I don’t see any pity spent for the Israeli women and children.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

If you're saying that people who voted for Hamas as their only hope against their oppression deserve to die, then you have some ****ed up morals.

I’m not saying they deserve to die, don’t know how you got to that conclusion. I’m saying that they should look at their leaders if they want someone to blame, not at the Israelis who defend their own people.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

They voted for Hamas because they promised to keep fighting the illegal occupation and violent oppression. Who would YOU have voted for in their place?

I’m not in their place. The Palestinians are really screwed in that aspect – when the only choices you have is between Hamas and Fatah, you are really f*&^*d.

I’m also not blaming the Palestinians population for too much. Just like the Israeli population they suffer because of their leadership– I am blaming Hamas for a lot though..

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

It was on the news on the 1990's. I can't find the link, but there are plenty of similar stories:

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1466

I tried googling it, but couldn’t find any mention of the incident you specify. I would think that if something like that has happened, then documentation of it would be accessible through human rights organization,etc.

The link you sent me doesn’t mean much. I’m not denying that children are hurt in the conflict, but Israeli children get hurt also, not just Palestinian children.

The biggest difference between Hamas and Israel in this regard is that Hamas targets civilians intentionally, while Israel does its best to reduce civilian casualties as much as possible – at times even by sacrificing the lives of Israeli soldiers.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Who are 'The Jews'? All you have to do to get immigrate to Israel is convert to Judaism. How do people from Europe, Asia and Africa all supposedly come from the same country?

The process of converting to Judaism can take years. You don’t become a Jew automatically just because you decide you are.

As for the second part of your question – scientists believe that the origin of all humans is from Africa, so basically every human on the planet can say that he has African roots.
People move around, and that is the simplest explanation for your question.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

People who immigrate to Israel are not coming from refugee camps were they have been forces, with the keys to their old houses.

No, you are right. Most of the people who immigrated to Israel came from Nazi death camps, where they were slaughtered in the millions, robbed, starved and raped.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

The people who immigrated to Israel to form the top levels of power were the Ashkenazi Jews. The are white Slavic and Germanic European converts to Judaism, with no ancestral link to the middle east whatsoever.

Says you. Plenty of research points to different conclusions.
Besides, there were always Jews in Israel.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

The truth is, the Palestinians aren't even asking for their whole country back - they're simply asking for the Israelis to return to their internationally agreed 1967 borders. Don't bother mentioning the surrender terms of Camp David - that offer was for a few small disconnected patches of land, which was designed to be rejected.

Well, then it would seem that Hamas has a different agenda then that of the Palestinians.
Unfortunately, since Hamas is the elected ruling government of the Palestinians, it doesn’t really matter what the Palestinians want – what matters is what Hamas wants.

Besides, simply asking doesn’t give you results in a day, a month or even a year.
That is what negotiations and peace talks are for. When you negotiate for peace, there should be no violent acts on both sides. The Palestinians have never stopped the violence, even during peace talks.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

All Israel has to do is stop breaking international law, end the occupation. Peace will come when there is JUSTICE.

Peace will come when there is no violence.
As for justice – whose justice?

Nodin

Mairt wrote: »

I've also never seen the IDF or SLA hide behind human shields,

Yet it was official policy to use human shields up to 2002/2003 or so, when the Israeli Supreme court instructed the IDF to halt the practice...
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/Petition_to_HCJ.asp

Still happens on occassion but it no longer has official sanction.

Mairt wrote: »

History shows that the Palestinians will try set up a homeland anywhere, they're traditionally a nomadic people

emmmm....rather famously (or so I thought), not quite, no.....

Results of a DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim in 2000 matched historical accounts that Arab Israelis and Palestinians,[70][71] together as the one same population, represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times", albeit religiously Christianized and later largely Islamized, then both ultimately becoming culturally Arabized.[72] Referring to those of the Muslim faith more specifically, it reaffirmed that Palestinian "Muslim Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel, Sinai and part of Jordan." Geneticist Michael Hammer praised "the study for 'focusing in detail on the Jewish and Palestinian populations.'" [73] The study proposes that:

...More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years...found that the Y chromosome in Middle Eastern Arabs was almost indistinguishable from that of Jews.[74

(my bold)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

munchester29

Loved the DNA test results!

I always thought that there is a very good chance that this whole conflict is a family matter... cousins fighting each other...

OK-Cancel-Apply

munchester29 wrote: »

Just read the Hamas charter. Article 7, for example. I’m sure I don’t need to supply you with the link

Please do. I ask you though, to refrain from linking me to a Zionist site which twist the translation to suit their purposes.

Israel goes out of its way to minimize collateral damage. Unfortunately, when Hamas intentionally fires rockets and mortars from schools, hospitals, etc - at times even firing from within the civilian population itself, when Israel fires back innocents are hurt.

If that's true, why did they use illegal cluster bombs on South Lebanon? That doesn't sound like they were trying to minimise civilian casualties.

In addition – most of the Israelis who suffer by the hands of Hamas are not soldiers. Hamas target civilians purposefully, and over 700,000 Israelis are within range of their rockets. I don’t see any pity spent for the Israeli women and children.

Of course one pities Israeli women and children who die in this conflict. The problem is, the proportionate amount of Palestinian civilian casualties is FAR higher, and the Israelis have better more accurate weapons.

The process of converting to Judaism can take years. You don’t become a Jew automatically just because you decide you are.

Makes no difference to my point about having some birthright to the land and immigrating at the expense of the people already living there.

As for the second part of your question – scientists believe that the origin of all humans is from Africa, so basically every human on the planet can say that he has African roots.
People move around, and that is the simplest explanation for your question.

Well then by your own standards we should all have a claim to Africa, and we all have the right to kick out the natives and settle there. Though we tried that before, and look what happened.

No, you are right. Most of the people who immigrated to Israel came from Nazi death camps, where they were slaughtered in the millions, robbed, starved and raped.

In 2008? In 2000? In 1980 or 1960? No. In any case, nobody has a right to evict somebody else for their own land. It's a simple concept. This is the 21st century, and that kind of thing is no longer acceptable, yet it's going on right before our eyes.

Says you. Plenty of research points to different conclusions.

Are you saying that those in power are not white Europeans?

Besides, there were always Jews in Israel.

Nobody contests that.

Well, then it would seem that Hamas has a different agenda then that of the Palestinians.
Unfortunately, since Hamas is the elected ruling government of the Palestinians, it doesn’t really matter what the Palestinians want – what matters is what Hamas wants.

Besides, simply asking doesn’t give you results in a day, a month or even a year.
That is what negotiations and peace talks are for. When you negotiate for peace, there should be no violent acts on both sides. The Palestinians have never stopped the violence, even during peace talks.

The Arabs have been on their knees, begging for peace for 40 years. When nobody is listening, men with guns take matters into their own hands. That's just a fact of life.

Peace will come when there is no violence.
As for justice – whose justice?

Tell that to the aggressors. Are you saying that justice is nothing more than what one said may desire? Justice means for Israel to give back they land the stole in 1967, start obeying international law, and give the Palestinians a state of their own (on contiguous land, not patches). That's just for everybody, isn't it?

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

Loved the DNA test results!

I always thought that there is a very good chance that this whole conflict is a family matter... cousins fighting each other...

It wouldn't be true to say theres no difference between them, but there are large numbers of Jewish Israelis who facially (certainly to an outsider) are indistinguishable from their Arab counterparts. Recent immigres from Europe and America tend to more light skinned, but an awful lot of the time its six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Thus this "you people aren't from here" by either side is rather nonsensical, as is the "nothing here before we arrived" line (which I've heard by White South Africans against "blacks", Australians against Aborigines and Ken Maginnis once against what could be described as "us").

Manic Moran

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Israeli leaders have rejected an immediate 48-hour pause in fighting and will push ahead with the devastating air offensive against the Palistianan people in Gaza despite calls from around the world including the EU. This says a lot about the country. Death toll now at 384 and rising.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5irLPqJrPJIoKfmTvJSp5tYWOSMNg

I do note that the BBC article I read says it was rejected by Hamas as well. Their complaint was that the EU proposal treated both Hamas and Israel equally.

NTM

AARRRGH

Look, whether or not the Palestinians are aggressive, the Israelis would still be taking over their land. Their religion tells them to do this.

At this point in time the Palestinians have no choice but to fight back, as the Israelis do not care about "talking" and are not going to stop their settlement policy.

Palestinians are ****ed, no matter what they do.

Manic Moran

If that's true, why did they use illegal cluster bombs on South Lebanon?

Um.. They're not illegal. Unless you're talking about that Dublin treaty (which I don't think Israel has signed) which wasn't in effect back then anyway.

Nice thing about them is that they have a much less destructive effect than a conventional bomb. You can kill targets in towns without demolishing buildings.

NTM

brianthebard

Manic Moran wrote: »

Um.. They're not illegal. Unless you're talking about that Dublin treaty (which I don't think Israel has signed) which wasn't in effect back then anyway.

Nice thing about them is that they have a much less destructive effect than a conventional bomb. You can kill targets in towns without demolishing buildings.

NTM

And they can continue killing people for a long time after they were dropped. Fantastic.

GirlInterrupted

munchester29 wrote: »

J
Most of the people who suffer at the hands of the Israelis are Hamas terrorists.
Most of the Palestinians (including women and children) suffer because of Hamas.
Israel goes out of its way to minimize collateral damage. Unfortunately, when Hamas intentionally fires rockets and mortars from schools, hospitals, etc - at times even firing from within the civilian population itself, when Israel fires back innocents are hurt.

In addition – most of the Israelis who suffer by the hands of Hamas are not soldiers. Hamas target civilians purposefully, and over 700,000 Israelis are within range of their rockets. I don’t see any pity spent for the Israeli women and children.

I’m not saying they deserve to die, don’t know how you got to that conclusion. I’m saying that they should look at their leaders if they want someone to blame, not at the Israelis who defend their own people.

I’m not in their place. The Palestinians are really screwed in that aspect – when the only choices you have is between Hamas and Fatah, you are really f*&^*d.

I’m also not blaming the Palestinians population for too much. Just like the Israeli population they suffer because of their leadership– I am blaming Hamas for a lot though..

The biggest difference between Hamas and Israel in this regard is that Hamas targets civilians intentionally, while Israel does its best to reduce civilian casualties as much as possible – at times even by sacrificing the lives of Israeli soldiers.

The process of converting to Judaism can take years. You don’t become a Jew automatically just because you decide you are.

No, you are right. Most of the people who immigrated to Israel came from Nazi death camps, where they were slaughtered in the millions, robbed, starved and raped.

Well, then it would seem that Hamas has a different agenda then that of the Palestinians.
Unfortunately, since Hamas is the elected ruling government of the Palestinians, it doesn’t really matter what the Palestinians want – what matters is what Hamas wants.

Peace will come when there is no violence.
As for justice – whose justice?

Very reasonably put.

Manic Moran

And they can continue killing people for a long time after they were dropped. Fantastic.

Six of one, a half dozen of the other. Which is better, dropping cluster munitions which will likely blow out most of the windows in half a city block, kill people who are exposed (rooftops, streets etc) and may kill people after the fact who go and pick the things up, or dropping unitary munitions which will almost certainly destroy a portion of a city block entirely, and kill everyone both exposed and who are inside the buildings, but with a much lesser chance of killing people after the fact?

You can make the arguments both ways.

NTM

tallaght01

The Saint wrote: »

I also used statistical evidence to show how not all Arabs (specifically Palestinians) want to kill Jews and destroy Israel.

Anone who knows anthing about stats will tell you that surveys are pretty much the lowest form of evidence, especially for something like this.

Jesus1222 wrote: »

Absolute b0ll0x. Anybody with half a brain can see both sides, they just want it to stop, in this case stopping Israel murdering hundreds of people. Gaza is basically defenceless. These rockets are an act of complete desperation. Nobody in their right mind wouldn't acknowledge bus bombings and nightclub bombings, except they don't happen anymore. Stop touting armchair psychology as some sort of analysis. I've never read such rubbish. There are quite specific causes of this conflict which don't require much analysis or thought at all.

Translation.................It's ballacks coz Tallaght01 doesn't hate on da Izreelis. I dunno why it's bollocks, but if I use terms liek "armchair pschology" that might help my case........

Bus and mall attacks aren't happening right now. they're not happening because the Israelis are bombing the gee of palestine. I know you don't think that if they had the chance the Palestinians wouldn't start that campaign again, so let's not even pretend. The upshot is that by hardcore violence, the Israeli people feel less fear, so they let their government away with it.

Most conflict arond the world that has been settled with no land being given has been ended b breaking the cycle of violence.

Look at the North. No land has changed hands, but no more bombs either.

But, ya know, you keep protesting outside embassies and all that. They're totally listening to you

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

What a pile of shyt. If he didn't want to die, he shouldn't have joined the f\/cking ARMY. Killing and dying is in the job description.

So if it's no bother that this kid died because it's in the job description...does that make the Israeli army right in what they're doing, as it's in their job description?????????

Wow!!

This thread hurts my brain.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Saint I'm not ignoring the effort you've put into debating my points, but I'm heading out now, very pushed for time. But I'm in work tomorrow and have a lot more time to go over this with you.

Thanks for taking the time with considered and educated replies instead of spewing the usual bullsh*t which 99% of other's here have done.

But you still haven't conceded that Israel does not occupy The Gaza, however I will acknowledge its holding it by a strangle hold, along with Egypt I might add.

But really, I'll read over everything you posted tomorrow and get back to it.

tallaght01

Mairt wrote: »

I'm heading out now, very pushed for time. But I'm in work tomorrow and have a lot more time to go over this with you.

.

Glad the country is in safe hands, mairt :P