Israel's latest attacks on Gaza.

arybvtcw0eolkf

capt fantastic wrote: »

but i have always found it strange how isreal has america on a leash i mean try going for president when you dont like isreal.

Oh that old speel..

Nothing more stranger than Israel's neighbours being militarily equipt by the Russians and China.

And combined, American financial aid to Israel's neighbours far outweight the aid given to Israel.

irishbran77

"Nothing more stranger than Israel's neighbours being militarily equipt by the Russians and China.

And combined, American financial aid to Israel's neighbours far outweight the aid given to Israel."

I think there's always a danger in overstating the power Israel has in America. People can sometimes enter old 'Jewish controlling the world' territory and jump to silly extremes. But What you're trying to say is that aid to Israel isn't all that significant compared to aid America gives to other nations in the region. This Forbes article in relation to a recent deal on the expansion of military aid to Israel suggests otherwise...

"US President George W. Bush, whom Olmert last met in Washington on June 19, gave him assurances 'to keep the qualitative edge between us (Israel) and the other states (in the region),' the Israeli premier said."

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2007/07/29/afx3963706.html

Manic Moran

Mairt wrote: »

Oh that old speel..

Nothing more stranger than Israel's neighbours being militarily equipt by the Russians and China.

In fairness, currently the Lebanese are equipped by the Americans and Israelis, the Syrians are equipped by Russia, the Jordanians are equipped by the Americans and the British, and the Egyptians are equipped by the Americans.

NTM

Hagar

The Isreali's have gone in, let the cleansing begin.

IRISH RAIL

Manic Moran wrote: »

In fairness, currently the Lebanese are equipped by the Americans and Israelis, the Syrians are equipped by Russia, the Jordanians are equipped by the Americans and the British, and the Egyptians are equipped by the Americans.

NTM

and to top the ironoy fatah are equiped by Israel

marco murphy

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

and to top the ironoy fatah are equiped by Israel

Heh. What more can I say.

mrboswell

israel is a disgrace, I've been boycotting israeli product for a while now - If more people do it it will mean less profit for them and the US will have to provide more financial support during a time when they are financially screwed themselves. Foreign aid to israel by FAR outweighs the combined foreign aid given to all other countries by the US. I wonder how brave Israel would be without their "big brother"....

I don't agree with Hamas' tactics but totally understand - Steal a peoples land because god "promised" it to you. Then abuse, harass, destroy their homes and prevent them living their daily lives so they will eventually want to leave - that is ethnic cleansing quite simple.

israeli propaganda just sickens me - they actually believe their own rubbish.

israelis should get out of Gaza and the west bank, take down the walls and build a wall around their disgusting country and then, maybe - just maybe - they might destroy themselves from the inside out.

B

sukikettle

Those who curse Israel will be cursed and those who bless Israel will be blessed says the God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses who were promised this land in its entirety. Can a nation be born in a day? Predicted in Isaiah thousands of years before Israel became a state in May of 1948 and have you at the very least googled the miracles that took place during the six day war allowing Israel to defeat five nations...so who are you really against here

Selkies

sukikettle wrote: »

Those who curse Israel will be cursed and those who bless Israel will be blessed says the God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses who were promised this land in its entirety. Can a nation be born in a day? Predicted in Isaiah thousands of years before Israel became a state in May of 1948 and have you at the very least googled the miracles that took place during the six day war allowing Israel to defeat five nations...so who are you really against here

Religious Extremists mostly

Selkies

I really don't think the pro-palestinian side grasps how horrific Hamas are. If they had any sense they would dissasociating themselves entirely from anything green.

They are a bunch of very intelligent, well organised people with a definite purpose in mind, everyone seems to be treating them like some wild animal with a wounded paw.

Nothing that is happening now is unexpected for Hamas.

quad_red

Selkies wrote: »

I really don't think the pro-palestinian side grasps how horrific Hamas are. If they had any sense they would dissasociating themselves entirely from anything green.

They are a bunch of very intelligent, well organised people with a definite purpose in mind, everyone seems to be treating them like some wild animal with a wounded paw.

Nothing that is happening now is unexpected for Hamas.

Hamas is a rabid and selfish movement, with little or no compassion for the death toll it's actions may cause in the wider civilian population.

But it's brand of extremist bile is only strengthened by Israel's history of brutality. And Israel's recent behaviour only guarantees that a new generation of brutalised, terrified and disenfranchised Palestinians are being expertly schooled in exactly what Israeli justice and self defence is all about.

A truly depressing start to 2009.

BlaasForRafa

mrboswell wrote: »

israel is a disgrace, I've been boycotting israeli product for a while now - If more people do it it will mean less profit for them and the US will have to provide more financial support during a time when they are financially screwed themselves. Foreign aid to israel by FAR outweighs the combined foreign aid given to all other countries by the US. I wonder how brave Israel would be without their "big brother"....

Just shows how little you know. Israel defeated multiple arab states in 1948 and 1967 with little aid and inferior equipment to the arab states. The did so with better training, better field commanders and better fighting spirit.


For people with a more sensible conscience than you can donate to the Israeli Defence force medical fund at http://www.libi-fund.org.il/Libi/ENG/Projects/MedicalCare_And_EquipMent to ensure that the best medical aid continues to go to Israels soldiers.

quad_red

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Just shows how little you know. Israel defeated multiple arab states in 1948 and 1967 with little aid and inferior equipment to the arab states. The did so with better training, better field commanders and better fighting spirit.


For people with a more sensible conscience than you can donate to the Israeli Defence force medical fund at http://www.libi-fund.org.il/Libi/ENG/Projects/MedicalCare_And_EquipMent to ensure that the best medical aid continues to go to Israels soldiers.

And that is a truly appalling sentiment.

Whatever the politics on show here, any aid should be going to the undefended civilian population who are currently under bombardment from one of the most well equipped military forces in the world.

And neither sides military arms should be getting any assistance from the world at large.

munchester29

mrboswell wrote: »

israel is a disgrace, I've been boycotting israeli product for a while now - If more people do it it will mean less profit for them and the US will have to provide more financial support during a time when they are financially screwed themselves. Foreign aid to israel by FAR outweighs the combined foreign aid given to all other countries by the US. I wonder how brave Israel would be without their "big brother"....

Considering that most Palestinians work for Israeli companies, and work in agriculture in the area (many of them work for Israelis), boycotting Israeli product actually hurts the Palestinians also.

Foreign aid to Israel doesn’t outweigh the combined foreign aid given to all other countries in the Middle East by the world.

mrboswell wrote: »

I don't agree with Hamas' tactics but totally understand - Steal a peoples land because god "promised" it to you. Then abuse, harass, destroy their homes and prevent them living their daily lives so they will eventually want to leave - that is ethnic cleansing quite simple.

I believe that anyone who supports the Palestinians in this conflict actually contributes to prolonging the conflict and suffering.
If you support & identify with a government that uses terrorist tactics, you basically tell them that their tactics are justified – it’s OK to use suicide bombers and it’s OK to fire thousands of rockets into populated civilian areas. Unfortunately, while you yourself might be OK with this, the Israeli people kind of frown upon being bombarded constantly, and since there will be no peace before violence on both sides stops – if you justify one side’s violence, you basically support the continuation of violence.

mrboswell wrote: »

israeli propaganda just sickens me - they actually believe their own rubbish.

Actually, Israel’s propaganda machine is highly lacking compared to the Palestinian one.

mrboswell wrote: »

israelis should get out of Gaza and the west bank, take down the walls and build a wall around their disgusting country and then, maybe - just maybe - they might destroy themselves from the inside out.

Israel went out of Gaza, and all it got in return was an increase in Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians.

So, Israel made a step in the right direction, and Hamas reciprocated by increasing attacks…

quad_red

munchester29 wrote: »

If you support & identify with a government that uses terrorist tactics, you basically tell them that their tactics are justified – it’s OK to use suicide bombers and it’s OK to fire thousands of rockets into populated civilian areas. Unfortunately, while you yourself might be OK with this, the Israeli people kind of frown upon being bombarded constantly, and since there will be no peace before violence on both sides stops – if you justify one side’s violence, you basically support the continuation of violence.

The Israeli government has been pretty clear that it does not consider Hamas to be a legitimate government. It regularly assassinates it's leaders and is intent on completely exterminating it.

Yet you're saying that the actions of this (by Israel's definition) illegitimate terrorist organisation (which according to what Israeli spokesmen have being saying on bbc news terrorises it's own population and siphons off millions from aid) are enough to justify whatever Palestinian civilian casualties result from this action.

BlaasForRafa

quad_red wrote: »

The Israeli government has been pretty clear that it does not consider Hamas to be a legitimate government. It regularly assassinates it's leaders and is intent on completely exterminating it.

Yet you're saying that the actions of this (by Israel's definition) illegitimate terrorist organisation (which according to what Israeli spokesmen have being saying on bbc news terrorises it's own population and siphons off millions from aid) are enough to justify whatever Palestinian civilian casualties result from this action.

The IDF is there to defend the state of Israel. If someone attacks Israel then they have to consider the consequences of those actions.

By hiding rocket launchers in civilian areas Hamas are putting their people in danger. Hamas are quite happy to see palestinian civilians killed as it helps their relentless propoganda machine which unfortunately too many people on this board seem to swallow everything they say.

quad_red

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The IDF is there to defend the state of Israel. If someone attacks Israel then they have to consider the consequences of those actions.

By hiding rocket launchers in civilian areas Hamas are putting their people in danger. Hamas are quite happy to see palestinian civilians killed as it helps their relentless propoganda machine which unfortunately too many people on this board seem to swallow everything they say.

I have no doubt that many people on this board swallow the bile that Gaza come out with. The fragmented, chaotic and fundamentalist way in which they behave can only bring ruin and misery unto the Palestinian people.

But you, like so many on here, seem unable to concede the ruinously cruel and brutal behaviour that the IDF indulges in. Every report of civilian and innocent misery is dismissed as either lies, anti semitism, short sighted stupidity or all the Palestinians own fault anyway.

raven136

im not a political activist for either side but whats going on at the moment seems wrong to me.
There is wrong unquestionably on both sides but one side is trapped and civilans being murdered.
Hamas was elected as government and surely this will only harden opinion among ordinary people.
For every civilan killed will 5 or 10 just not join Hamas?
What does Israel achieve by all this?

Rocket attacks are wrong also and what can hamas achieve by them?

The one worrying extremely worrying thing was the alleged use of Phosphorus Shells as reported in todays London Times.

Call Me Jimmy

What has Hamas being elected got anything to do with it? If anything that vindicates the israelis more because they can say Hamas represent the people and by extension the people support the attacks on israel. I'm not saying all the palestinians support the rocket attacks, I just don't understand how Hamas being elected is part of the discussion.

BlaasForRafa

raven136 wrote: »

The one worrying extremely worrying thing was the alleged use of Phosphorus Shells as reported in todays London Times.

White phosphorous is used to create smokescreens and is used by many armies. you make it sound like they're using mustard gas or something.

BlaasForRafa

quad_red wrote: »

I have no doubt that many people on this board swallow the bile that Gaza come out with. The fragmented, chaotic and fundamentalist way in which they behave can only bring ruin and misery unto the Palestinian people.

But you, like so many on here, seem unable to concede the ruinously cruel and brutal behaviour that the IDF indulges in. Every report of civilian and innocent misery is dismissed as either lies, anti semitism, short sighted stupidity or all the Palestinians own fault anyway.

Many of the reports of casualties from the palestinians in the past have been lies. For example after the battle of Jenin the palestinian authorities claimed that the Israelis had killed 500+, one claim was as high as 900 dead.

A United Nations study after the event put the death toll at 56 palestinians (mostly fighters) and 23 Israelis. The palestinians always inflate their own death toll as they know that the media will usually fall for it. Its always best to treat palestinian claims with a pinch of salt.

Selkies

quad_red wrote: »

Hamas is a rabid and selfish movement, with little or no compassion for the death toll it's actions may cause in the wider civilian population.

But it's brand of extremist bile is only strengthened by Israel's history of brutality. And Israel's recent behaviour only guarantees that a new generation of brutalised, terrified and disenfranchised Palestinians are being expertly schooled in exactly what Israeli justice and self defence is all about.

A truly depressing start to 2009.

I believe that if we are to claim to support peace we must keep our condemnation of the actions of Hamas and Israel seperate.
They are both responsible for their own actions.

raven136

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

White phosphorous is used to create smokescreens and is used by many armies. you make it sound like they're using mustard gas or something.

"the geneva treaty of 1980 states that white phosphorous should not be used in civilian areas"times of london today

Charles Heyman a retired British army major"if white phosphorus was deliberately fired at a crowd of people then someone would end up in the Hague.White Phosphorous is also a terror weapon.The descending blobs of phosphorous will burn when in contact with the skin"quoted in the same paper this morning.

Just throwing it out there to see what people reckon

mrboswell

sukikettle wrote: »

Those who curse Israel will be cursed and those who bless Israel will be blessed says the God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses who were promised this land in its entirety. Can a nation be born in a day? Predicted in Isaiah thousands of years before Israel became a state in May of 1948 and have you at the very least googled the miracles that took place during the six day war allowing Israel to defeat five nations...so who are you really against here

Here we go again.....
It's this rubbish that is the root of the problem and helped in no small way by the british and now the US.

Keep your holy joe stuff for israeli chat rooms

If israel truly tried to work for peace I believe Hamas would stop the rockets

dlofnep

Mairt wrote: »

And combined, American financial aid to Israel's neighbours far outweight the aid given to Israel.

Israel is America's largest recipient of military aid in the world.

mrboswell

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Just shows how little you know. Israel defeated multiple arab states in 1948 and 1967 with little aid and inferior equipment to the arab states. The did so with better training, better field commanders and better fighting spirit.


For people with a more sensible conscience than you can donate to the Israeli Defence force medical fund at http://www.libi-fund.org.il/Libi/ENG/Projects/MedicalCare_And_EquipMent to ensure that the best medical aid continues to go to Israels soldiers.

The Arab forces had little appetite for war and it this was even further quenched by the brutal murdering of innocent civilians by the israeli forces - check that out to see how little YOU know.

People with any conscience certainly wouldn't want to donate anything to israeli monsters who pretend to want a lasting peace. Maybe if they got out of Palestine and removed the "security walls" to let them live in peace we might have a start there...

mrboswell

munchester29 wrote: »

Considering that most Palestinians work for Israeli companies, and work in agriculture in the area (many of them work for Israelis), boycotting Israeli product actually hurts the Palestinians also.

Foreign aid to Israel doesn’t outweigh the combined foreign aid given to all other countries in the Middle East by the world.

YES it DOES - get your facts straight - it was even quoted in previous posts.


I believe that anyone who supports the Palestinians in this conflict actually contributes to prolonging the conflict and suffering.
If you support & identify with a government that uses terrorist tactics, you basically tell them that their tactics are justified – it’s OK to use suicide bombers and it’s OK to fire thousands of rockets into populated civilian areas. Unfortunately, while you yourself might be OK with this, the Israeli people kind of frown upon being bombarded constantly, and since there will be no peace before violence on both sides stops – if you justify one side’s violence, you basically support the continuation of violence.

You obviously have never lived in a state that was occupied and oppressed by another nation in your own country. When you do I will rate your opinion. as I said - I do not agree but understand.

Actually, Israel’s propaganda machine is highly lacking compared to the Palestinian one.

israeli spokespersons actually believe their own rubbish - they don't honestly think the outside world believe that they are not trying to remove the Palestinian thorn in their side for good - time will tell how legitimate isreal are


Israel went out of Gaza, and all it got in return was an increase in Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians.

So, Israel made a step in the right direction, and Hamas reciprocated by increasing attacks…

Went out of Gaza? They shouldn't have been there in the first place nor in the West Bank! Maybe a step in the right direction but not far enough

quad_red

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The palestinians always inflate their own death toll as they know that the media will usually fall for it. Its always best to treat palestinian claims with a pinch of salt.

Again, I think any moderate commentator realises that many Palestinian factions exaggerate death tolls for the sake of publicity.

You haven't even bothered to say whether or not the IDF is guilty of war crimes. You've just off hand dismissed Palestinian claims.

There are numerous documented incidents of appalling behaviour. Yet you seem only capable of thinking one side capable:

by groups such as Human Rights Watch:
'
The IDF's last major ground operation in Gaza, from February 27 to March 3, 2008, killed 107 Palestinians, more than half of whom were civilians, and wounded more than 200. Two Israeli soldiers died.

Human Rights Watch's detailed field investigation of that operation found serious violations by the IDF, including the killing of a wounded man getting treatment in an ambulance, the shooting deaths of two civilians on donkey carts, and the shooting and wounding of two men in IDF custody. In two cases, tank crews opened fire on unarmed civilians. All of these incidents took place in an area that was firmly under the control of the IDF. Palestinian medics and ambulance drivers also faced restrictions on their ability to treat the wounded and dead - both civilians and combatants - and came under fire that killed one medic.

In February-March 2008, as on other occasions, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups placed civilians at risk by firing rockets and mortars from densely populated areas and storing weapons in civilian structures. Those acts, too, violate the laws of war.

Human Rights Watch said that during past hostilities both sides have failed to take adequate steps to remove civilians from areas where there was fighting, putting them at unnecessary risk. A senior IDF legal advisor recently told Human Rights Watch that it is still standard procedure for IDF troops to detain civilians in houses in which the IDF deploys, thus exposing them to danger of attacks from Palestinian forces.'

Selkies

mrboswell wrote: »

Here we go again.....
It's this rubbish that is the root of the problem and helped in no small way by the british and now the US.

Keep your holy joe stuff for israeli chat rooms

If israel truly tried to work for peace I believe Hamas would stop the rockets

Really? I mean, I thought Hamas were one of those groups that actually want to wipe Israel off the map and not just say it at rallies, hence why they were being funded by Iran.
I think if Israel really try for peace, there will be someone from the palestinian side that will match their actions.

concussion

raven136 wrote: »

"the geneva treaty of 1980 states that white phosphorous should not be used in civilian areas"times of london today

Raven, is that what the paper says? If so, they're wrong, the treaty states no such thing. What it (The 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons) states is that "incindiery weapons are those which are primarily designed to set fire or burn persons through flame or heat, such as napalm and flamethrowers."
You cannot attack civilians with incindiery weapons and you cannot attack military facilities within civilian areas with air-delivered incindiery weapons.

If its designed for creating smoke screens or for marking/signalling then there's nothing stopping it's use.