Israel's latest attacks on Gaza.

munchester29

quad_red wrote: »

And the terms that you mention, again, totally relates your own bias. You think a settlement should involve (rightfully) an end to rocket firing and suicide bombings. Basically, an end to the armed insurrection against what they see as the loss of all their lands and rights.

I was in a hurry when I wrote that post, so I didn’t have time to mention all points – I’ve specifically wrote that any other point can be considered as a valid point for argument’s sake.

quad_red

munchester29 wrote: »

I was in a hurry when I wrote that post, so I didn’t have time to mention all points – I’ve specifically wrote that any other point can be considered as a valid point for argument’s sake.

Era, ye know what I mean

You make a good point though. Maybe an analogy the way some Irish Americans were able to demand nothing but reunification etc. in the North.

It's easy to be ideologically pure when it's not your blood on the line.

munchester29

quad_red wrote: »

It's easy to be ideologically pure when it's not your blood on the line.

Couldn't have said it better myself:)

dlofnep

trentf wrote: »

i wouldn't say it remains untoucable i mean if iran gets a nuke and they are well on their way to doing that its game over for israel and probably some of europe too...

Israel knows this and has been frantically upgrading its submarine fleet to dolphin class subs which carry nuclear warheads for this threat. I mean if israel gets hit they are planning on using this fleet to wipe out whoever launched the threat or just blanket nuke a known list of enemy countries.

Iran would NOT nuke Israel. Don't be silly.

concussion

Re the signature above - sonic booms are war crimes?

EDIT - I see you changed your sig.

BlaasForRafa

dlofnep wrote: »

Iran would NOT nuke Israel. Don't be silly.

Its not silly at all, Iran is ruled by a religious theocracy, who knows what kind of crackpot they may have leading them who decides to send a nuke at israel.

Selkies

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Its not silly at all, Iran is ruled by a religious theocracy, who knows what kind of crackpot they may have leading them who decides to send a nuke at israel.

Iran may have a religious leader but he is far from nuts, quite politically astute actually. He has his country's interest in mind

marco murphy

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Its not silly at all, Iran is ruled by a religious theocracy, who knows what kind of crackpot they may have leading them who decides to send a nuke at israel.

Rubbish. One, Iran doesn't have a Nuclear weapon, there is no evidence whatsoever. Israel on the other hand has a nuclear arsenal that they won't tell anyone about. Israel has shown itself to be a damn lot more ''crackpot'' than Iran in all fairness.

quad_red

Selkies wrote: »

Iran may have a religious leader but he is far from nuts, quite politically astute actually. He has his country's interest in mind

Yeah, I'm not so sure about that.

Beyond the usual 'Iran is evil' malarkey, their seem to be some serious (and plausible) concerns about alleged corruption and some of his hardcore policies.

And he seems well capable of finding some international issue to whine about when domestic issues seem to be bubbling up.

Although, in all fairness, he's no different from any other government like that.

BlaasForRafa

Perestroika wrote: »

Rubbish. One, Iran doesn't have a Nuclear weapon, there is no evidence whatsoever. Israel on the other hand has a nuclear arsenal that they won't tell anyone about. Israel has shown itself to be a damn lot more ''crackpot'' than Iran in all fairness.

Bull****, Israel could have used nukes in the Yom Kippur war when they were attacked by massive Syrian and Egyptian attacks which threatened the Israeli state but instead they had the fortitude to resist and defeat the Arab forces through the bravery and professionalism of the IDF.

If Israel declined to use nukes in that instance could you say that the unstable extremist forces in Iran would do they same?

quad_red

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Bull****, Israel could have used nukes in the Yom Kippur war when they were attacked by massive Syrian and Egyptian attacks which threatened the Israeli state but instead they had the fortitude to resist and defeat the Arab forces through the bravery and professionalism of the IDF.

If Israel declined to use nukes in that instance could you say that the unstable extremist forces in Iran would do they same?

Again, your emotive bias is laughable.

There are quite a number of reliable sources which indicate that Israel has developed nuclear weapons.

It's not difficult to see why they did not use them after being attacked on the onset of the Yom Kippur. Despite being desperate, support from the US would not have been forthcoming had they started shooting nukes off. It would have been all over.

BlaasForRafa

quad_red wrote: »

Again, your emotive bias is laughable.

There are quite a number of reliable sources which indicate that Israel has developed nuclear weapons.

It's not difficult to see why they did not use them after being attacked on the onset of the Yom Kippur. Despite being desperate, support from the US would not have been forthcoming had they started shooting nukes off. It would have been all over.

Your lack of knowledge is laughable. Israel had nukes at the time of the Yom Kippur war. The IDF chiefs of staff asked Golda Meir if they should prepare nukes and she said only in the case of a last resort.

In the event they didn't need to use nukes. Israel could have reduced Damascus and Cairo to ashes but they chose not to. Israel proved that they would not use nukes only, would you trust Iran not to use nukes?

quad_red

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Your lack of knowledge is laughable. Israel had nukes at the time of the Yom Kippur war. The IDF chiefs of staff asked Golda Meir if they should prepare nukes and she said only in the case of a last resort.

In the event they didn't need to use nukes. Israel could have reduced Damascus and Cairo to ashes but they chose not to. Israel proved that they would not use nukes only, would you trust Iran not to use nukes?

Apologies re the point - I thought you said that Israel didn't have nuclear weapons. I was saying that all the evidence points that they did (and do).

However, my point re your tone remains.

Israel chose not to use nuclear weapons because they knew that the support of the United States was contingent on them not using them. Using nuclear weapons is, in the ultimate sense, the end game.

This applies even in the Middle East.

Iran is a dangerous dangerous entity. But I do not think that Ahmadinejad, despite his tiresome rhetoric, is stupid enough to have his country commit suicide (literally) by nuking Israel.

marco murphy

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Bull****, Israel could have used nukes in the Yom Kippur war when they were attacked by massive Syrian and Egyptian attacks which threatened the Israeli state but instead they had the fortitude to resist and defeat the Arab forces through the bravery and professionalism of the IDF.

If Israel declined to use nukes in that instance could you say that the unstable extremist forces in Iran would do they same?

Just how many years do you want to go back?
I'm talking about now. Israel cannot be trusted, look at them, look at them.
Targetting UN aid trucks time and time again, breaking promises to the aid workers. They are clearly ''unstable extremist forces''. I would trust Iran with a nuke much quicker than Israel.
Iran has countless times said Nuclear weapons are stupid and illogical.
There is no evidence. They don't have nukes, Israel has 1000s.

Unstable extremeist forces. Lol.

munchester29

Perestroika wrote: »

Just how many years do you want to go back?
I'm talking about now. Israel cannot be trusted, look at them, look at them.
Targetting UN aid trucks time and time again, breaking promises to the aid workers. They are clearly ''unstable extremist forces''. I would trust Iran with a nuke much quicker than Israel.
Iran has countless times said Nuclear weapons are stupid and illogical.
There is no evidence. They don't have nukes, Israel has 1000s.

Unstable extremeist forces. Lol.

Last I heard about the truck business, seems it was actually Hamas who fired on it, and Israel rescued the wounded.

Israel has been involved in many conflicts in the past and never used weapons of mass destruction.
Please do a bit of reading on what the Iranians used during the Iran-Iraq war...

quad_red

munchester29 wrote: »

Last I heard about the truck business, seems it was actually Hamas who fired on it, and Israel rescued the wounded.

Last you heard? From where? Link?

All the reports I've read in the media indicate the two clearly marked UN vehicles were hit by an Israeli tank, killing two drivers.

munchester29 wrote: »

Israel has been involved in many conflicts in the past and never used weapons of mass destruction.
Please do a bit of reading on what the Iranians used during the Iran-Iraq war...

This thread is becoming side tracked. No one is defending Iran. And it's internal human rights abuses are well documented and abhorrent.

But from what I've read, Iraq was the first side to deploy chemical weapons (much of which, it turned out, were supplied by the West). It made extensive use of nerve gas against Iranian troops and civilians. And even after deploying these weapons against the Kurds it still enjoyed the support of the US.

I was unaware of any large scale... actually, any specific documented cases of Iranian use of chemical weapons. As you have clearly done allot of reading on this issue, please do enlighten us all!

They seemingly now do possess stocks of such weapons. But then again, so does Israel apparently.

concussion

Perestroika wrote: »

They don't have nukes, Israel has 1000s

That's a bit of an overstatement, analysts believe they have around 250, maybe up to 400. But not over 2000 warheads. Unless you have a link?

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

quad_red wrote: »

I was unaware of any large scale... actually, any specific documented cases of Iranian use of chemical weapons.

The US say they might have and the UN confirmed Iraqi troops were exposed to chemical agents. Whether Iran used them or Iraq accidentally exposed it's own troops is debatable though.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/cw.htm

RedPlanet

Skeptics argue that the only evidence for the claim that Iran used chemical weapons during the war were unsubstantiated claims of the US government. There were allegations by the US Government at the time that Iran had used chemical weapons against the Kurdish village of Halabja in March 1988. Subsequently, these attacks were attributed by the US Government to Iraq alone.

There was a report during Gulf War I, which was commissioned by the Marine Corp I believe, and I used to be able to link to it on their website.
This report concluded that Iran was likely repsonsible for the chemical weapons used at Halabja and not Iraq.
This report was very seldomly mentioned by the media or the US government.
Saddam was the main baddie since the report, and so got the blame for Halabja.
In fairness, the US wasn't revealing all it knew about Iraq's chemical weapons programme however and since UNSCOM more information became publically available, which appeared to suggest it was more likely Iraqi weapons used at Halabja.
Once upon a time i was engaged in a debate with other posters at the cnn forums (long defunct) and one of the posters was able to contact the author of this report, and the author stood by his assertion that it was Iran that did Halabja. You have to understand that it wasn't necessarily an intentional bombardment of a civilian area. The use of chemical weapons during the Iran/Iraq war was a very archiac affair!
Both sides were using tanks as artillery pieces! The war strategy was patently absurd and neither side would properly defend their gains.

quad_red

RedPlanet wrote: »

Once upon a time i was engaged in a debate with other posters at the cnn forums (long defunct) and one of the posters was able to contact the author of this report,

Ha ha. Now *that's* winning a debate on a forum

RedPlanet wrote: »

This report concluded that Iran was likely repsonsible for the chemical weapons used at Halabja and not Iraq.

Don't remember reading that before. Christ, what a mess.

RedPlanet wrote: »

You have to understand that it wasn't necessarily an intentional bombardment of a civilian area. The use of chemical weapons during the Iran/Iraq war was a very archiac affair!
Both sides were using tanks as artillery pieces! The war strategy was patently absurd and neither side would properly defend their gains.

My brother has a book on it that I've always meant to read. Must get it next time I'm down home. But he's talked about some of the stories in it and it's tragic folly on a grand scale.

marco murphy

concussion wrote: »

That's a bit of an overstatement, analysts believe they have around 250, maybe up to 400. But not over 2000 warheads. Unless you have a link?

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/



The US say they might have and the UN confirmed Iraqi troops were exposed to chemical agents. Whether Iran used them or Iraq accidentally exposed it's own troops is debatable though.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/cw.htm

I'll retract that, I have no evidence in fairness.
Either way though, I would trust Iran quicker than Israel with nuclear weapons.

Here Ahmedinijad is talking sense, from today,
http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=81572&sectionid=351020101

IsraelShalom

There is no comparison between the actions of Hamas and Israel . Israel has shown great restraint , but the time has come for this to be sorted . Would any other nation sit by and watch their people subjected to suicide bombs and rocket fire . Hamas has shown its ugliness time and again , sending women children and the disabled to their death as Forced suicide bombers . The time has come to call a halt to the Evil of Hamas , the world should let Israel get on with it and take heed , if the Palestinians could finish off Israel who do you think would be next , yes, anyone whos not Muslim is on their target list . Think on it , and hope for a speedy end to Hamas and peace to all the peoples of the Middle East

IsraelShalom

People , people , where do you think these weapons originate . The U S of course . When the US invaded Iraq , they were getting the Mass Destruction weapons back that they gave to Saddam to wipe out the Iranians . If anyone remembers the empty bunkers found all over Iraq after the US had retrieved them .

IsraelShalom

Dude whats wrong with you , you would trust Iran , you have lost the plot .

marco murphy

IsraelShalom wrote: »

There is no comparison between the actions of Hamas and Israel . Israel has shown great restraint ,

Oh yeh. We'll just ignore the constant violations of international law by Israel.
Restraint. Heh. White phosphorus.

Would any other nation sit by and watch their people subjected to suicide bombs and rocket fire .

Which suicide bombs exactly?
No, I can't think of any nation that would sit and watch, as much as I don't see a country subjected to nearly 50 years of oppression, siege, kidnapping, internment, incursion and murder to stand by and do nothing.

Hamas has shown its ugliness time and again , sending women children and the disabled to their death as Forced suicide bombers .

Thats rubbish.

The time has come to call a halt to the Evil of Hamas , the world should let Israel get on with it and take heed

Get on with it? Are you absolutely crazy?
They will never topple Hamas anyway. I'm no military expert, but that much I know. Israel has made the worst decision yet. They got their assed kicked in Lebanon for trying to do the same.

IsraelShalom wrote: »

People , people , where do you think these weapons originate . The U S of course . When the US invaded Iraq , they were getting the Mass Destruction weapons back that they gave to Saddam to wipe out the Iranians . If anyone remembers the empty bunkers found all over Iraq after the US had retrieved them .

Lulz. What weapons?

IsraelShalom wrote: »

Dude whats wrong with you , you would trust Iran , you have lost the plot .

I said I would trust Iran much quicker than I would trust Israel.
Israel are absolutely untrustworthy and have proved it in the last few decades.
How many times did they tell the UN they would be safe? Four times they told them, but no, they went and killed one of their drivers.

Israel is an apartheid state and needs to be ended, just like the South African regime.
And anyone who advocates a no-talks with hamas policy is silly to be honest.

Manic Moran

All the reports I've read in the media indicate the two clearly marked UN vehicles were hit by an Israeli tank, killing two drivers.

Official written UN report mentioning the incident (Linked to on the massive politics thread somewhere) indicates that the aid workers were shot, not injured by tank shells as the initial reports indicated. (As it was, the reports said tanks fired 'near' the truck. As a tanker, I'll tell you that missing repeatedly missing a truck is a very poor tank crew)

Any other details are 'he said/she said' with little firm data to go on, though the Israeli side saying that it was Israeli medics going in to aid the wounded cannot be discounted since they're in an Israeli hospital. The UN document does not attempt to affix blame to either side.

NTM

IsraelShalom

What are you saying , Exterminate is it ?

mrboswell

Well said Perestroika - I agree with you 100%

BlaasForRafa

Perestroika wrote: »

No, I can't think of any nation that would sit and watch, as much as I don't see a country subjected to nearly 50 years of oppression, siege, kidnapping, internment, incursion and murder to stand by and do nothing.

Actually Israel has been subjected to this from its neighbours for 60 years now.

One thing its learned in that time is not to sit around on its hands while they are being constantly attacked.

BlaasForRafa

Perestroika wrote: »

I'll retract that, I have no evidence in fairness.
Either way though, I would trust Iran quicker than Israel with nuclear weapons.

Here Ahmedinijad is talking sense, from today,
http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=81572&sectionid=351020101

If thats your real opinion then you must be insane.

Israel has had nuclear weapons for 40 years and hasn't used them.

Your friend Ahmedinijad has made statements like ""They should know that regional nations hate this fake and criminal regime and if the smallest and briefest chance is given to regional nations they will destroy (it)"

or how about his holocaust denying? "‘People in Palestine are getting killed every day by the new rulers of Palestine. As a consequence of the Holocaust, the Europeans took land from the Palestinians for a Jewish state. I don’t care whether the Holocaust took place or not, but it is illogical to give a piece of Palestine for compensation. Some people make an awful fuss about that Holocaust, make a myth of it. (…) Countries that themselves have nuclear, chemical and biological weapons should not raise an outcry when Iran wants access to peaceful nuclear technology.’"

And if you believe Iran wants nuclear technology for peaceful purposes then you must be even more insane. Iran has the worlds largest stocks of oil, what does it need nuclear energy for.

marco murphy

IsraelShalom wrote: »

What are you saying , Exterminate is it ?

What are you saying rather.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Actually Israel has been subjected to this from its neighbours for 60 years now.

And that justifies everything

One thing its learned in that time is not to sit around on its hands while they are being constantly attacked.

Right so they inflict absolute evil on Palestinians, and that is the strategy to deal with what exactly?

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If thats your real opinion then you must be insane.

Thanks.

Israel has had nuclear weapons for 40 years and hasn't used them.

And what is your point?

or how about his holocaust denying? "‘People in Palestine are getting killed every day by the new rulers of Palestine. As a consequence of the Holocaust, the Europeans took land from the Palestinians for a Jewish state. I don’t care whether the Holocaust took place or not, but it is illogical to give a piece of Palestine for compensation. Some people make an awful fuss about that Holocaust, make a myth of it. (…) Countries that themselves have nuclear, chemical and biological weapons should not raise an outcry when Iran wants access to peaceful nuclear technology.’"

He is dead right.

And if you believe Iran wants nuclear technology for peaceful purposes then you must be even more insane. Iran has the worlds largest stocks of oil, what does it need nuclear energy for.

So I am insane for believing what all the facts point to? Yeh, makes sense alright. Iran is actually short of oil, but thats neither here nor there. They have a right to Nuclear power.