Difficulty understanding anger at GOD

cufroige

Hi,

I won't go into details but a terrible tragedy has befallen my FIL's family.
It is very sad & seems so unfair, in saying that what has happened would be unfair no matter who it happened to, but the circumstances were already disadvantageous... Another way of putting it would be "they already seemed to have been given crosses to bear"

Anyway, My OH's aunt in her reaction to the event is saying how she goes to mass everyday, prays for everyone & now "this happens" and she will never go to mass again.. Other family members are saying "what have we done to deserve this" These are 'religious' people, I am not.

While I would be spiritual and couldn't really define my own belief system I feel I have a stronger faith (in whatever) than a lot of the mass go-ers I know.. I don't throw my hands up in the air when an 'injustice' happens, no matter how bad, I try to understand that there is no understanding, no fairness quota & that life lessons are not conditional to experiences being percieved as either positive r negative..I interpret GOD as love & I really am that simple about it.. I keep love in my heart & try to put it into every context as I can see a way to place it, even in negative situations..

Or is that just optimism?

While I have always Kept my own thoughts to myself, I don't preach my own or disrespect anothers beliefs, I go with the flow
I don't know why this is now bothering me so much..

My OH's sister is younger than me (30) & kind of freaks me out with this same religious mentality..Very often she talks about novenas, padre pio & has given me medals which I am very happy to have in my car, I know it's her way of caring for me. We get on very well, I have always accepted it as part of who she is & appreciate that I am included in her prayers. But I'm just frustrated (not surprised) with the 'victim' response, blaming God, when they all seem to ask so much of him. I don't think it makes sense to ask so much of a GOD you 'love' and then to forsake him when YOU decide he has not done his job.
I also see that all of the above people have very narrow minded attutudes towards their community/neighbours, getting 'thick' over not being 'saluted' on the road for example, or because the neighbour didn't call in when he said he would.. it's taken to be an affront! Half the time I don't see anyone when I'm driving, I would never think someone was insulting me because they didn't wave

I don't believe in any of the things required to be a Christian, but I do believe in the core message of Jesus Christ, when broken down is that not Love? Am I over simplifying this?

(both mine & OH's family are RC)

Just to add.. OH's family are now all bickering between themselves about who should have done what, who should be doing what & are all, it seems to me to be on the blame wagon. What happened was a pure accident & the family member it happened to his circumstance is now being overshadowed by what seems to be a fallout.. should their energy not be directed at his recovery, should they not pray for his recovery before deciding that all is forsaken and give up at this point? Is it just their reaction, not being equipped themselves to accept & move through? Surely they can see that their loyalty to GOD doesn't put them on the 'tragedy free' list... Look around! If that were the case would they be attending funerals of anyone other than those who died peacefully in their sleep of old age? And they all have quite a funeral attendance record..
Would we even have newschannels? newspapers?

MrPudding

cufroige wrote: »

Surely they can see that their loyalty to GOD doesn't put them on the 'tragedy free' list... Look around!

I know. It almost looks as if god does not actually exist and stuff just happens because, well, it just happens. Go figure.

MrP

Fanny Cradock

You are trolling, Mr P. By now you really should know better.

Húrin

Hi currofige,

That's a lot to take in. I would just suggest to your family that God is not directing their lives to show favour and disfavour. That's old thinking that Christianity liberated us from. God probably does not unleash violence on people on earth. "The sun shines and the rain falls on the good and the wicked" so said Jesus somewhere in the Gospels.

A more determinist view could be drawn from

John 9
Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind
1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

6Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7"Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

Maintaining faith is very difficult in times of extreme pain like this. But it may be good to remind them that whatever for today's pain, eternal peace will according to their religion, be theirs in heaven:

“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”- John 16:33

I don't believe in any of the things required to be a Christian, but I do believe in the core message of Jesus Christ, when broken down is that not Love? Am I over simplifying this?

'Follow me and love each other.' Yes, that's pretty much it.

I interpret GOD as love & I really am that simple about it.. I keep love in my heart & try to put it into every context as I can see a way to place it, even in negative situations.

Sounds like a good way to live.

I hope this stuff helps in some way

Splendour

As Hurin (couldn't put the fada on you name Hurin,soz), has pointed out, "The sun shines and the rain falls on the good and the wicked", or as we say in the secular world,and not to be flippant, but **** happens. It will continue to do so as long as we are in this fallen world of ours.

I remember years ago after a ten year wait for a much longed for baby, my baby died. My heart was broken but I never thought 'why me' or more so to the point 'why me if I'm a Christian?'
My Dad's reaction however stunned me. At the time I was Catholic and was heading to mass a couple of weeks later. He asked me why I was going up there to see Him. You have to understand that my Dad is one of the most God loving people I know and I had never ever seen him react this way.
Anger has a dreadful effect on all of us, even those who are strong in faith.

Be there for your family cufroige, do not judge them, and be strong for them...


God bless

apoch632

alt-gr + the letter in question should put the fada's on

regards

Splendour

apoch632 wrote: »

alt-gr + the letter in question should put the fada's on

regards

Thanks apoch, that works in a word document but for some reason it won't work for me on boards. That's probably just me though... :rolleyes:

Fanny Cradock

Splendour wrote: »

As Hurin (couldn't put the fada on you name Hurin,soz), has pointed out, "The sun shines and the rain falls on the good and the wicked", or as we say in the secular world,and not to be flippant, but **** happens. It will continue to do so as long as we are in this fallen world of ours.

I remember years ago after a ten year wait for a much longed for baby, my baby died. My heart was broken but I never thought 'why me' or more so to the point 'why me if I'm a Christian?'
My Dad's reaction however stunned me. At the time I was Catholic and was heading to mass a couple of weeks later. He asked me why I was going up there to see Him. You have to understand that my Dad is one of the most God loving people I know and I had never ever seen him react this way.
Anger has a dreadful effect on all of us, even those who are strong in faith.

Be there for your family cufroige, do not judge them, and be strong for them...


God bless

A sad story, Splendour.

If you don't mind me asking, did your father eventually get over his anger towards God?

leadinglady

What you come across to me as, is a very spiritual person. I think of myself in the same way, I dont follow the 'rules' of the RC church, I dont go to mass every week, but I love God and I try to be the best person I can be. I dont always succeed and I have been through hugh lows in my life. I also dont understand why things happen, but I try to look at a bigger picture and just work a way out of it as best I can. Its not that simple I know, but even at my worst I feel my heart is clearer than most card carrying mass goers, waving their paper money for all to see before dropping it in the basket. There are begrouged people in my family too, and I thank God that I am not getting sucked into that every day. Id say I am seen as 'yer wan' on her pedastal by certain quarters, because I stand back and view the backstabbing and gossip and say nothing. I have a clear concience now , I had to fight for it and I had to make amends and let things go, so I am not putting that at risk for anyone. My OHs family are also constantly rowing and have deep rooted problems and, hard as it is to watch, I try to stand clear (unless my OH is going to get hurt, in which case action is necessary!) because you will always come out the worse of it when the fog clears! We have to take care of ourselves and let others do it their way, and assume God knows what his doing...You are doing exactly what you should be doing, being a good person.

Splendour

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking, did your father eventually get over his anger towards God?

Oh he did Fanny, thanks for asking.
My Dad could never stay angry with anyone for long-especially not God .
Actually, I don't recall my Dad ever being angry apart from that incident. He is most 'Christian living' person I know-a great roll model for me...

Akrasia

I think it's fairly simple, she believes that praying to God is supposed to have an effect, and she is angry that not only did god appear to ignore her prayers, but actually caused her family to suffer.

She is angry at god, but also at the entire concept of prayer.

She is having an understandable reaction to these events by deciding that the rituals of the church (prayer and mass) have no effect and are a waste of time and energy and is understandably angry at having been misled all these years into believing that they are important.

I find it amusing that christians offer to pray for me when I have an upcoming event (like a job interview) and then take pleasure if that event is successful as though they helped in some way, but if something terrible happens they say that prayers don't work that way

metrovelvet

People get angry at god because they expect him to act like a father [he is God the Father after all] and that means to protect them from harm. So they are let down. Now, I am not particularly religious, but am interested in theology and perhaps these tragedies happen so that people learn things, one being compassion and the other, forgiveness. Perhaps they need to forgive their God.

Phototoxin

I find it amusing that christians offer to pray for me when I have an upcoming event (like a job interview) and then take pleasure if that event is successful as though they helped in some way, but if something terrible happens they say that prayers don't work that way

isnt the word of god like a 2 edged sword.. cutting both ways... what happens if it is the will of God/Allah that you DONT get the job ? And maybe i they hadn't prayed you might have gotten it?

Deicida

Phototoxin wrote: »

isnt the word of god like a 2 edged sword.. cutting both ways... what happens if it is the will of God/Allah that you DONT get the job ? And maybe if they hadn't prayed you might have gotten it?

That makes no sense, why would he have got the job if it was Gods will that he didn't?

MrPudding wrote: »

I know. It almost looks as if god does not actually exist and stuff just happens because, well, it just happens. Go figure.

He makes a fair point though. If there was no God/purpose/meaning in life then what would it be like? Events would just happen regardless of fairness or how horribly cruel they are and that seems to be the way things are.

wolfsbane

metrovelvet wrote: »

People get angry at god because they expect him to act like a father [he is God the Father after all] and that means to protect them from harm. So they are let down. Now, I am not particularly religious, but am interested in theology and perhaps these tragedies happen so that people learn things, one being compassion and the other, forgiveness. Perhaps they need to forgive their God.

They misunderstand who God is and who they are. God is the sovereign of the universe, their Creator and sustainer, and they are sinners deserving of instant and eternal punishment.

Every second they are spared from that is something to be thankful for. But on top of that they enjoy so much each day of His provision - food, clothes, family, etc. We have no right to accuse God of neglect when bad things happen. Bad things are a consequence of living in a fallen world.

When bad things happen we need to ask God for mercy and deliverance, but we have no right to demand it.

Instead, when we are enjoying the good things we should be grateful to God and turn to Him in repentance for our rebellion, and trust in His Son Jesus Christ:
Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Our heart goes out to those in distress, but the kindest thing we can do for them is to point them to the One who can give them peace and joy now, and eternal life with Him hereafter.

Deicida

Ask for mercy? You miss the point. It seems your God has no mercy if he/it is capable of such atrocities or rather there is nothing there to give mercy. Bad things are not a consequence of a fallen world, they always happened and will continue to happen even if the whole world devoted their lives to a God.

wolfsbane

Deicida wrote: »

Ask for mercy? You miss the point. It seems your God has no mercy if he/it is capable of such atrocities or rather there is nothing there to give mercy. Bad things are not a consequence of a fallen world, they always happened and will continue to happen even if the whole world devoted their lives to a God.

Your being alive to write this post is an example of His mercy. Your judging Him as merciless is a further affront to His character, making your survival even more merciful.

How do you know bad things have always happened? And that they always will? By assumptions, not knowledge.

Better you at least listen to what God says about it all, before jumping to conclusions.

Deicida

wolfsbane wrote: »

Your being alive to write this post is an example of His mercy. Your judging Him as merciless is a further affront to His character, making your survival even more merciful.

How do you know bad things have always happened? And that they always will? By assumptions, not knowledge.

Better you at least listen to what God says about it all, before jumping to conclusions.

So I should be thankful to him for not killing me, because it's mostly what he likes to do.

I know bad things have always happened because I learned history and they will continue to happen because of common sense. Your God seems to have no interest in preventing them anyway although you claim he has the ability .

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

leadinglady

Free Will is the reason we are in the mess we are in. Human beings and their own free will. God gave everybody that free will and we ####ed up. As for if he is real. He is real to me, but I have my own version of God, my own set of beliefs and my spirituality which is what makes me one step above the animals, in my opinion. Thats deep enough for me, Im not religous in the traditional sense. Everybody is entitled to have a belief in something or someone, and that is their God. A lot of people need that belief to guide them. No one has the right to question any individuals beliefs. If you dont believe then fine, thats your right. I cant work out whether you believe in anything from your posts, but then thats really your business.

Compak

wolfsbane wrote: »

They misunderstand who God is and who they are. God is the sovereign of the universe, their Creator and sustainer, and they are sinners deserving of instant and eternal punishment.

Perhaps for you thats true. But my god is one who had his son die to FREE me from my sin. I am deserving of no condemnation or punishment.

I am my fathers son, a son of the King most high. I EXPECT blessings and greatness as my birthright.

i get the impression of a God you fear - I may be wrong but thats how I get it from you-. Like your boss in work, you hide your true feelings and always be polite put on a smile aim to please out of duty/respect/fear thankful you are getting a wage.

Thats not my God, how could i be like that with my best friend and my father. someone Im with 24/7. I am my true self and I will express myself. I have had emotional outbursts over the years where I have lost it at him.
Looking back at them some were trivial others not and still present health/relationships/ death.
But just like with my biological parents when i got angry with them we would make up and I would ask for forgiveness.

I come back to God and repent, apologise for losing it at him and I know he has my interests at heart. I then ask him to give me wisdom and understanding to see his grand plan for me.

I still have some of my problems present but my worrys about them are much less. I know God will allow no true harm to come to me. I am seeing his plan for my life take shape and realising that a lot of the events (pain) that occured in my life has shaped me for this path and is making me the best in my area. There are other things I am still waiting to see their purpose but I know as I am trying to understand them its deepening my realtionship with my Lord.

So off my rant. My point is how is it wrong for someone to get angry with God over such a serious matter as a death. Their father promised them something and they were let down. Have ye never got angry with your own parents for not doing something impoartant for ye. their faith so strong they never imagined it possible for the person to die. Those who did not truly believe it would find it easier not too be angry.

We are human and cant be expected to understand God's great plan for all our lives especially in such emotion. The important bit is as the emotion subsided the father asked Jesus back into his life.

Splendour

Splendour wrote: »

He is most 'Christian living' person I know-a great roll model for me...

That should read 'role'-I hate wrongly spelt words...:rolleyes:

Splendour

Compak wrote: »

So off my rant. My point is how is it wrong for someone to get angry with God over such a serious matter as a death. Their father promised them something and they were let down. Have ye never got angry with your own parents for not doing something impoartant for ye. their faith so strong they never imagined it possible for the person to die. Those who did not truly believe it would find it easier not too be angry.

I agree with you Compak. I remember shorthly after I lost my baby, a Christian friend of mine gave me a video to watch which showed a family who had just lost their daughter/sister. In this video the family were constantly smiling and praising God for taking this child to be with Him.
Now I agree this girl being in heaven with Jesus is obviously awesome for her, and consolation for the family, yet I still think their reaction was very odd. To me it looked like they couldn't get angry or cry as it might seem 'un Christian'.

Personally I thought this was absolute bull***t and extremely whacky to say the least.

wolfsbane

Deicida wrote: »

So I should be thankful to him for not killing me, because it's mostly what he likes to do.

I know bad things have always happened because I learned history and they will continue to happen because of common sense. Your God seems to have no interest in preventing them anyway although you claim he has the ability .

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Yes, you should be thankful for Him sparing you till this time. You, like every sinner, deserves His holy wrath - but you have had mercy so far.

The best history you will find is that of the Bible. There you will find that bad things did not always happen - they had a beginning. Man sinned, and bad things began for us.

God is able to prevent evil, and wills to do so in His own good time. That Day has been appointed - but He holds back in His mercy until the last one of His sheep are brought safely in:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

That's why we call men to repentance and faith. Those who heed will be saved. Those who do not will face His eternal wrath - that is where evil ends, banished from the presence of God, in the outer darkness, where the worm does not die nor is the fire quenched.

wolfsbane

Compak said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
They misunderstand who God is and who they are. God is the sovereign of the universe, their Creator and sustainer, and they are sinners deserving of instant and eternal punishment.

Perhaps for you thats true. But my god is one who had his son die to FREE me from my sin. I am deserving of no condemnation or punishment.

That is only true if you have been forgiven for Christ's sake. The wrath of God remains on the unrepentant.

I am my fathers son, a son of the King most high. I EXPECT blessings and greatness as my birthright.

So do I - but those He promised, not those I invent. He promised eternal life to all who turn to Him, but trials and tribulation in this life to accompany the good things.

i get the impression of a God you fear - I may be wrong but thats how I get it from you-. Like your boss in work, you hide your true feelings and always be polite put on a smile aim to please out of duty/respect/fear thankful you are getting a wage.

On the contrary, I love him as a Father, and I fear Him likewise - I know He will chastise me if I behave foolishly, and I also fear to hurt Him.

Thats not my God, how could i be like that with my best friend and my father. someone Im with 24/7. I am my true self and I will express myself. I have had emotional outbursts over the years where I have lost it at him.
Looking back at them some were trivial others not and still present health/relationships/ death.
But just like with my biological parents when i got angry with them we would make up and I would ask for forgiveness.

OK, but it is still sin. We are not to excuse it. Look at Job for the example, not his wife:
Job 2:9 Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!”
10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

I come back to God and repent, apologise for losing it at him and I know he has my interests at heart. I then ask him to give me wisdom and understanding to see his grand plan for me.

Exactly - you repent for your foolish outburst.

I still have some of my problems present but my worrys about them are much less. I know God will allow no true harm to come to me. I am seeing his plan for my life take shape and realising that a lot of the events (pain) that occured in my life has shaped me for this path and is making me the best in my area. There are other things I am still waiting to see their purpose but I know as I am trying to understand them its deepening my realtionship with my Lord.

I agree.

So off my rant. My point is how is it wrong for someone to get angry with God over such a serious matter as a death. Their father promised them something and they were let down. Have ye never got angry with your own parents for not doing something impoartant for ye. their faith so strong they never imagined it possible for the person to die. Those who did not truly believe it would find it easier not too be angry.

You acknowledged above that it was a sin to be angry with God.

We are human and cant be expected to understand God's great plan for all our lives especially in such emotion. The important bit is as the emotion subsided the father asked Jesus back into his life.

I have no problem with understanding how in weakness a Christian may fall into sin, and afterward repent. But that is not to justify the sin. I think you may now see my point.

Compak

wolfsbane wrote: »

You acknowledged above that it was a sin to be angry with God.


I have no problem with understanding how in weakness a Christian may fall into sin, and afterward repent. But that is not to justify the sin. I think you may now see my point.

I admit it is a sin. But I think we differ in how God will handle the sin.
When I commit such a sin which I will as I am himan not divine, I do not fear a wrath form god, I do not fear being "chastised".
No I am no making my God angry I am making my God sad.

I repent later for blaming GOd for causing this sadness upon him that while at them time I felt he deserved it, when I can think clearly I realise God always has my interests at heart

Compak

wolfsbane wrote: »

So do I - but those He promised, not those I invent. He promised eternal life to all who turn to Him, but trials and tribulation in this life to accompany the good things.

The Lord has so many blessing for us but we have to want them, reach out and take them. If we limit ourselves to be simply grateful for being alive God will allow this due to our dree will but we are losing out.

God promised all we have to do is ask and it will be granted. I will encounter trials and tribulations but nothing I cant handle and nothing God wont guide me through.
We all make decisons in our life on the road we take but God wants us on the highway not the windy backroads that many people take and then tell us they dont mind they are "carrying their cross".

I shudder when I hear it, people with illnesses life troubles and instead of not accepting and asking/telling/believing God will get them out they accept it as a burden a cross God has given them. They are nearly asking for it. I pity them so much, their lack of understanding the damage they cause.
Like this woman in my church. Would never look up always so revered and fearful head down all them time, not worthy to llook up. Her reward for such reverence, she is now a hunchback with sever back trouble. She brought it on herself with tottlay misingterpreted views of our God.

Im not saying this is you. Somtimes I jsut go off on tangents

cufroige

Thank you all for your replies. The best I can do is try to understand that others belief systems & practices lead them to react in very personal ways. It is not by business to judge, just to try & care...

Being an eternal optomist I have an interesting (maybe it's more comforting) theory on belief, I believe there is no such thing as a non believer..even non believers believe in nothing, which is something!
It doesn't really matter what you believe in or don't, it's the same thing

Thanks Again

leadinglady

Bet ur sorry u asked now.......

cufroige

leadinglady wrote: »

Bet ur sorry u asked now.......

Lol..at least I got a few good responses before the debate!!

wolfsbane

Compak wrote: »

I admit it is a sin. But I think we differ in how God will handle the sin.
When I commit such a sin which I will as I am himan not divine, I do not fear a wrath form god, I do not fear being "chastised".
No I am no making my God angry I am making my God sad.

I repent later for blaming GOd for causing this sadness upon him that while at them time I felt he deserved it, when I can think clearly I realise God always has my interests at heart

Have you not read how Jesus reacted to the foolishness of His disciples?
Mark 10:13 Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

Or what the Spirit says in Hebrews?
Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:


“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

wolfsbane

Compak wrote: »

The Lord has so many blessing for us but we have to want them, reach out and take them. If we limit ourselves to be simply grateful for being alive God will allow this due to our dree will but we are losing out.

God promised all we have to do is ask and it will be granted. I will encounter trials and tribulations but nothing I cant handle and nothing God wont guide me through.
We all make decisons in our life on the road we take but God wants us on the highway not the windy backroads that many people take and then tell us they dont mind they are "carrying their cross".

I shudder when I hear it, people with illnesses life troubles and instead of not accepting and asking/telling/believing God will get them out they accept it as a burden a cross God has given them. They are nearly asking for it. I pity them so much, their lack of understanding the damage they cause.
Like this woman in my church. Would never look up always so revered and fearful head down all them time, not worthy to llook up. Her reward for such reverence, she is now a hunchback with sever back trouble. She brought it on herself with tottlay misingterpreted views of our God.

Im not saying this is you. Somtimes I jsut go off on tangents

Sure, many miss out on God's blessings because they do not ask. But many more today wreck themselves and others by the false teaching of the Health & Wealth Movement. They expect God to heal & prosper on demand and lay burdens of guilt on those who fail to receive, accusing them of weak faith.

The reality is that God is sovereign, not us. He grants healing and prosperity to whom He wishes.

Our part is to ask for our needs (not greeds), and His is to answer for our good. That may mean not being healed, having to endure loss of previous riches, etc. Whatever is for our spiritual benefit.

BTW, unless you have some special insight into why the woman in your church went with her head bowed, I would fear to speak as you do.

leadinglady

Firstly, I admire your obvious indepth knowledge of the Bible and Scripture. However, I feel as an average young(ish) person that I have a good heart and a good sense of who I am and what God means to me, and the way He interacts in my life. It is not the as stoic in nature as your relationship to God, and thats OK too. It seems to me that if people have any relationship with God, it is a good thing, because lets face it, in this dy and age, religion isnt seen the same way it used to be and frankly people are not prepared to be told how to find their way to enlightenment anymore, they will do it their own way, and enjoy it. I dont care what scripture is quoted, I know my god and thats that.

wolfsbane

leadinglady wrote: »

Firstly, I admire your obvious indepth knowledge of the Bible and Scripture. However, I feel as an average young(ish) person that I have a good heart and a good sense of who I am and what God means to me, and the way He interacts in my life. It is not the as stoic in nature as your relationship to God, and thats OK too. It seems to me that if people have any relationship with God, it is a good thing, because lets face it, in this dy and age, religion isnt seen the same way it used to be and frankly people are not prepared to be told how to find their way to enlightenment anymore, they will do it their own way, and enjoy it. I dont care what scripture is quoted, I know my god and thats that.

What does your God think of you when you take His word so lightly? Why do you assume that a basic relationship with Him is all that He wants of you? Do you not think we all start our Christian lives as mere babies, knowing so little and so liable to err - and desperately need His word to feed us?
John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

1 Peter 2:2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

leadinglady

My God is quite happy with my relationship with him, thanks very much. I assume nothing, I feel it in my heart. Thats all I need. Peace. I didnt read all the Bible stuff because I would rather stay a mere infant in my beliefs and know I have spirituality and peace than root out pieces of scripture of the fire and brimstone nature you are quoting. God loves us all. Faults and mistakes. You wont change my mind on that if you put the whole bible on the thread.

FX Meister

Isn't it pretty clear that many people put their faith in god and go to mass purely for what they think they can gain from it, not to give glory to god. It's been happening since the invention of god and we were all taught about it in school. It's just ironic that after a couple of thousand years of gods teaching that we are still in tha same place we have always been.

wolfsbane

leadinglady wrote: »

My God is quite happy with my relationship with him, thanks very much. I assume nothing, I feel it in my heart. Thats all I need. Peace. I didnt read all the Bible stuff because I would rather stay a mere infant in my beliefs and know I have spirituality and peace than root out pieces of scripture of the fire and brimstone nature you are quoting. God loves us all. Faults and mistakes. You wont change my mind on that if you put the whole bible on the thread.

OK, but you make it plain that the God of the Bible is not your God. You have invented one to suit your temperament.

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

wolfsbane

FX Meister wrote: »

Isn't it pretty clear that many people put their faith in god and go to mass purely for what they think they can gain from it, not to give glory to god. It's been happening since the invention of god and we were all taught about it in school. It's just ironic that after a couple of thousand years of gods teaching that we are still in tha same place we have always been.

Yes, that is true of many people. And will be so till the End.

But God is seeking worshipers who love Him, who worship in spirit and in truth. They make up His true church:
John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

leadinglady

Like I said I have peace and I have love. Thats what encapsulates God for me. MY God. Each to their own.

Compak

wolfsbane wrote: »

Sure, many miss out on God's blessings because they do not ask. But many more today wreck themselves and others by the false teaching of the Health & Wealth Movement. They expect God to heal & prosper on demand and lay burdens of guilt on those who fail to receive, accusing them of weak faith.

The reality is that God is sovereign, not us. He grants healing and prosperity to whom He wishes.

Our part is to ask for our needs (not greeds), and His is to answer for our good. That may mean not being healed, having to endure loss of previous riches, etc. Whatever is for our spiritual benefit.

BTW, unless you have some special insight into why the woman in your church went with her head bowed, I would fear to speak as you do.

Thats my point, you fear. That is her choice but not mind. I have no special insight in her but I do have a special insight to my relationship with my own God.

I do watch my words though, to ensure I dont be content(complete) with what I have, grateful I am but I know there is much more to come.

Why do people ask to carry a cross, we are told to take up our own crosses, that to me is the burden of life with God alongside me to help when I stumble. Never do i ask for more though.

I know off a woman in the despairs of emotion prayed to suffer for God. Next week in a car crash years later still in pain. Another said they would do anythng to know God more, now paralysed though truely a lot more spiritual.
Oh and by the way they are not happy, they complain, have age and its not only them who have suffered but their children as they could never do all thet things a mother and child should.
Im well aware all the saints done this, but this is not my path to Heaven nor will it be.

My true point is I want and expect blessings in abundance, I can not tell God what they are or can I tell him when to give them. I do know God wants to see his children prosper and will allow no harm to me. I am a joyous christain. i celebrate the world God gave me. Its my world and I have no fear or worries in it.
This is the problem with christianity and why its slowly dying. There is no joy no happiness, its all solmen and fearful and accepting.
I expect to achieve greatness, witness more miracles in my life, people will look at me and want what I have and when they ask me waht it is I can tell them I have the Lord god in my life.

Also I do not follow the old testament. It was superceded and rightly so by the new testament. Jesus died for our sins and God has no anger for us now only mercy and kindness. Plus the flaws in the old testament were ridiculous.
So for any scripture you can quote about anger I can show you many more on compassion and kindness. God answers all our prayers "ask and you receive" the only problem people are one minded in how they expect to receive and often miss it.

Thank God even our own Pope admits to credence of evolution.

Compak

FX Meister wrote: »

Isn't it pretty clear that many people put their faith in god and go to mass purely for what they think they can gain from it, not to give glory to god. It's been happening since the invention of god and we were all taught about it in school. It's just ironic that after a couple of thousand years of gods teaching that we are still in tha same place we have always been.

Well that in itself is a show of faith because they believe they can gain something from it. A lot better than those who dismiss God altogether

FX Meister

Compak wrote: »

Well that in itself is a show of faith because they believe they can gain something from it. A lot better than those who dismiss God altogether

What's wrong with dismissing god? I dismiss god and I live a fairly decent life and do a lot of good for other people. Are you saying that I am not as good as someone who prays to god to get something for themeselves?

Compak

FX Meister wrote: »

What's wrong with dismissing god? I dismiss god and I live a fairly decent life and do a lot of good for other people. Are you saying that I am not as good as someone who prays to god to get something for themeselves?

Nothing to do with you being a good person, you could be the best. Just by not allowing God into your life you are setting yourself up with a major disadvantage.
I dont worry about many things because I know God has my back, I presume you would have to being on your own. (im excluding family and friends, limited in how they can help us). I also have the happiness of always having my best friend with me.

What happens when you die is a different matter and obviously not one I have knowledge on.

FX Meister

Compak wrote: »

Just by not allowing God into your life you are setting yourself up with a major disadvantage.

Could you explain that any further? It seems a very self righteous statement to make. I could say the same about you believing in a god that you have zero proof exists.