The path to atheism through the study of Islam

pH

Interesting article by Douglas Murray in the Spectator.

Studying Islam has made me an atheist

Douglas Murray says that he stopped being an Anglican after analysing Muslim texts and deciding that no book — of any religion — could claim infallibility
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/3194231/studying-islam-has-made-me-an-atheist.thtml

robindch

pH wrote: »

Studying Islam has made me an atheist

A rather honest account, I have to say:

yer man wrote:

it becomes clearer the more I look at it that religious texts are not only unnecessary to the ethical life. More often than believers like to admit, they are directly contrary to it.

I wonder when his former co-religionists will start to wail about his fanaticism?

pH

robindch wrote: »

A rather honest account, I have to say:I wonder when his former co-religionists will start to wail about his fanaticism?

I really like this bit:

Gradually, scepticism of the claims made by one religion was joined by scepticism of all such claims. Incredulity that anybody thought an archangel dictated a book to Mohammed produced a strange contradiction. I found myself still clinging to belief in Christianity. I was trying to believe — though rarely arguing — ‘Well, your guy didn’t hear voices: but I know a man who did.’ This last, shortest and sharpest, phase pulled down the whole thing. In the end Mohammed made me an atheist.

Murray has a bit of a reputation (as a kind of British Neo-con) and definitely has a thing about militant Islam (and Islam in general) so I'm guessing all sorts of spurious arguments will be thrown around to discredit the article and his new found atheism.

Goduznt Xzst

his realization mirrors that of mine, and most atheists for that matter imo. I think it is the height of arrogance when a religious person tries to assert that their assumption somehow has more validity than the assumption of a person of another religion. All religions have built their houses on sand.

What's odd though, is that most religious people are open to accept that the people of different Religions believe as vehemently as they do that they are right and that their religion and beliefs are true. What they can't grasp is that if their levels of devotion are the same, how can you say your belief is the truth and that they are deluded, when in fact, could you not be the one who is deluded and they are the ones that are correct? How can you know without making an illogical selfish assumption.

The only humble approach is to say that nobody knows, and accept that humans can be deluded into believing anything, a look at our history of religions, leaders and wars will attest to this. It is impossible for a person to say that the religion they have chose and believe has not been influenced by their own emotional state, sentiment and prejudice.

stevejazzx

robindch wrote:

Originally Posted by yer man
it becomes clearer the more I look at it that religious texts are not only unnecessary to the ethical life. More often than believers like to admit, they are directly contrary to it.

I like that, we should talk about that more, it is too often conceeded by athesits that there is some wieght in the idea that religon is at least a way of providing some kind of moral platform and constraint for communities...I have always argued that religon provides nothing of value that cannot be replicated by some other (non) belief...I hate the compromise of late that religon is 'good' for 'simple people'...no matter how ignorant or desperate someone might be, spoonfeeding them religon won't help...

Yusuf Mirza

http://www.alislam.org/library/articles/new/THE_EXPANDING_UNIVERSE.pdf

Before you blow off anymore steam brother. chew on this :-)

Ciaran500

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

http://www.alislam.org/library/articles/new/THE_EXPANDING_UNIVERSE.pdf

Before you blow off anymore steam brother. chew on this :-)

Ehh what?

Are you going to add anything on topic?

robindch

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

http://www.alislam.org/library/articles/new/THE_EXPANDING_UNIVERSE.pdf

"God not only promises expansion in the financial means of the one who spends in his ways but also promises peace of mind..."

Should somebody send this to Brian Cowen?

Dades

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

http://www.alislam.org/library/articles/new/THE_EXPANDING_UNIVERSE.pdf

Before you blow off anymore steam brother. chew on this :-)

In a nutshell...

Those references in the Quran are so vague as to be meaningless in any attempt to show that the writers of the original texts were aware of the scientific theories claimed in the document.

That is all.

pH

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

http://www.alislam.org/library/articles/new/THE_EXPANDING_UNIVERSE.pdf

Before you blow off anymore steam brother. chew on this :-)

Thank you for that brother, that is exactly what the Murray was getting at.

Someone can read your PDF then with a quick Google they can check that it's all made up nonsense, and that the Koran very clearly presents a geocentric astronomy, and is therefore completely wrong.

They can now dismiss the rest of the book as "more of the same", and then, hopefully, wonder if millions can be so infatuated with it as a revealed scripture, maybe the same is true about their holy book and revealed truths.

Yusuf Mirza

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/OurGod.pdf

"geocentric astronomy, and is therefore completely wrong"

Your objection is laughable brother. Geocentric astronomy is not present in the Qur'an. so either you are (a) a liar or (b) mislead. Give me the reference if you are truthful and then I shall go to the Arabic and prove you wrong entirely.

I will be waiting. In the meantime read the above link please.

Dades

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

In the meantime read the above link please.

Interesting on page 45 there's a whole promotion of Pascal's Wager - although of course it's not specifically referred to as that.

pH

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Give me the reference if you are truthful and then I shall go to the Arabic and prove you wrong entirely.

Yes indeed you would probably try, you've decided your book is correct and you will accept whatever contrived reading that bends the words just enough for you to save some face.

Islamic Astronomy was clearly geocentric, with more and more desperate attempts to make the Ptolemaic geocentric system work.

But if you're sincere about your promise, then provide a concise scientific summary in your own words of what the Koran means when it refers repeatedly to "Seven Heavens" (an astronomical term rather than theological).

Yusuf Mirza

1)

Very well as you may know the atmosphere is made up of sever layers or "heavens"

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Mesosphere

4. Thermosphere

5. Exosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Magnetosphere

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 2:29)

14 centuries ago, when the sky was believed to be one unified body, the Qur'an miraculously stated that it consisted of layers, and what is more, "seven" layers

The Qur’an even goes as far as to mention how they were formed.

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)

So here we see that once the sky was a mix of gasses or "smoke" but separated each with its own service to equilibrium or "mandate"

Yusuf Mirza

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

2) Thee are seven planets in the solar system.

1. Pluto
2. Mercury
3. Mars
4. Jupiter
5. Saturn
6. Earth
7. Venus

…described as “heavens” i.e. heavenly bodies

I think you'll find there are actually more than seven planets in the solar system. You've left out both Uranus and Neptune.

pH

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

1)

Very well as you may know the atmosphere is made up of sever layers or "heavens"
...

Doesn't the Koran say that the moon is contained in one of them? Which one?

Oh you've edited your post and removed the list of planets, but let me help you here:

Take your list

1. Pluto, 2. Mercury, 3. Mars, 4. Jupiter, 5. Saturn, 6. Earth, 7. Venus (7)

Add in those 2 planets JammyDodger discovered

1. Pluto, 2. Mercury, 3. Mars, 4. Jupiter, 5. Saturn, 6. Earth, 7. Venus, 8. Uranus, 9. Neptune (9)

Oops now we have 9, that's a problem, OH WAIT they've recently said Pluto isn't a real planet.

1. Mercury, 2. Mars, 3. Jupiter, 4. Saturn, 5. Earth, 6. Venus, 7. Uranus, 8. Neptune (8)

Hmmm, still one too many, wait we're on earth, so it's not really in our heavens - brilliant!

1. Mercury, 2. Mars, 3. Jupiter, 4. Saturn, 5. Venus, 6. Uranus, 7. Neptune (7 HEAVENS)

So the Koran correctly predicted the discovery of new planets (even the eventual demotion of Pluto), I'm hugely impressed.

Wouldn't it be much better to accept that the Koran is referring to the Seven heavenly objects which were known about at the time?

DinoBot

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

1)

Very well as you may know the atmosphere is made up of sever layers or "heavens"

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Mesosphere

4. Thermosphere

5. Exosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Magnetosphere

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 2:29)

14 centuries ago, when the sky was believed to be one unified body, the Qur'an miraculously stated that it consisted of layers, and what is more, "seven" layers

The Qur’an even goes as far as to mention how they were formed.

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)

So here we see that once the sky was a mix of gasses or "smoke" but separated each with its own service to equilibrium or "mandate"

Your number seven is incorrect. The Magnetosphere is NOT part of the atmosphere. The Earth's atmosphere is a layer of gases surrounding the planet Earth that is retained by the Earth's gravity.

A magnetosphere is a highly magnetized region around and possessed by an astronomical object. Not atmosphere.

Unless you now want to say your ghost in the sky is referring to the creation of the atmosphere + magnetosphere when he "In two days He determined them as seven heavens" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

And apart from that, the tradition of seven heavens probably originated in Mesopotamia 7,000 years ago.

"extracts from Enuma Elis and other Sumerian and Akkadian accounts of creation; BagM. Beih. 2 no. 98, possibly representing a compass-card; and Sumerian incantations referring to seven heavens and seven earths"

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go2081/is_/ai_n28857943

robindch

Want to see if I get thanked...

Dades

There you go.

stevejazzx

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

1)

Very well as you may know the atmosphere is made up of sever layers or "heavens"

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Mesosphere

4. Thermosphere

5. Exosphere

6. Ionosphere.

7. Magnetosphere

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 2:29)

14 centuries ago, when the sky was believed to be one unified body, the Qur'an miraculously stated that it consisted of layers, and what is more, "seven" layers

The Qur’an even goes as far as to mention how they were formed.

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)

So here we see that once the sky was a mix of gasses or "smoke" but separated each with its own service to equilibrium or "mandate"

Well brother, unfortunately for you there are several scientists frequenting these boards... I would however, love to see another crack of the whip by your good self at explaining the Islmaic non geocentric view of the universe as represented in the Koran. It would illustarte something that is well known around these parts; that ferverent religous types always find a interpretation that suits them. Tell me this, answer just this one question:

Why, if the Koran really knew about about our solar system and how it was made and of what it was composed of (planets and stars etc) why was it still incredibly vague in describing them? Why is there not in any historical religous record a clear description of any of our current knowledge about galaxies, solar systems, dying stars, distants suns etc.

Why is it that whenever someone makes an interpretation, that a religous text actually contains this kind of information that it is always incredibly vague? It is either giving us the information or it is not? Surely you don't imagine the Gods are toying with us do you? Each of these supposedly 'all knowing deities' were not aware of the confusion, even war, they were would cause to future generations by recording such vague texts?

UU

This is the problem some Muslims just take parts of the Qur'an and adopt it for any situation especially scientific questions (Christians sometimes do the same thing also). Actually in reference to the planets, the number seven is a common number in religion take for example the seven days of the week or the fact that the number 7 is often attributed to God. Furthermore, the Qur'an doesn't specifically say "planet" but "regular heaven" that could refer to anything! It's so vague yet that what some religious people often do, they take vague passages and stuff and stretch them to mean something they want them to mean!

Yusuf Mirza

If we count the number of layers, we see that the atmosphere consists of exactly seven layers, just as stated in the verse.

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate." (The Qur'an, 41:12)

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Ozonosphere

4. Mesosphere

5. Thermosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Exosphere

In the above verse 2 days are mentioned. In the Quran a day is used as a period of time.
Not that it means 2 actual days.


"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)

Here we see that each heaven has its own "mandate" or function.

Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers? (Qur'an, 71:15)

He Who created the seven heavens in layers… (Qur'an, 67:3)

We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs. (Qur'an, 21:32)
___________________________________________________________________________

“He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night.”
(Qur'an, 39:5)

Takwir: to make one thing lap over another

so here is a statment also the the earth is round.

DinoBot

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

If we count the number of layers, we see that the atmosphere consists of exactly seven layers, just as stated in the verse.

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate." (The Qur'an, 41:12)

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Ozonosphere

4. Mesosphere

5. Thermosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Exosphere

In the above verse 2 days are mentioned. In the Quran a day is used as a period of time.
Not that it means 2 actual days.


"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)

Here we see that each heaven has its own "mandate" or function.

Man :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ok, lets say your god was speaking about the 7 layers of the atmosphere but called it "heaven" instead. And lets say , as I have, that although its a very old concept of 7 heavens (7000 years old in fact) that its unique to Islam and your god, (which it is NOT, where did the saying of "Im in seventh heaven" come from ??)


So, If a science book was to say there were 7 layers to the atmosphere and that's it, it would be a pretty sh1t book.
But ok, lets say your god doesn't feel the need to explain too much and the number 7 should be enough for us mere humans to know he means the atmosphere.

So, is he also speaking good science when he speaks of the sun rising and setting ? (the sun doesn't rise and set by the way)

Certain translations of surah 18:86 speak of the sun setting in a black sea.

Compare the following two translations:

" ....Until when he reached THE PLACE WHERE THE SUN SET, he found IT GOING DOWN INTO a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit… Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found IT RISING on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It"...; Surah 18:86, 90 Shakir


Or , is this verse a metaphor but the other factual ??

pH

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

If we count the number of layers, we see that the atmosphere consists of exactly seven layers, just as stated in the verse.

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate." (The Qur'an, 41:12)

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Ozonosphere

4. Mesosphere

5. Thermosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Exosphere

So let me get this straight, your God is so concerned with the modelling of how temperature changes with altitude within the atmosphere he calls each one a "heaven" and repeatedly mentions this?

And by the way, the "ozonosphere" (ozone layer) is part of the stratosphere, so you're double counting to get to 7, let's keep trying, you and me, we're advancing Islamic science in ways not seen since since the 16th century!

stevejazzx

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

1)

Very well as you may know the atmosphere is made up of sever layers or "heavens"

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Mesosphere

4. Thermosphere

5. Exosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Magnetosphere

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 2:29)

14 centuries ago, when the sky was believed to be one unified body, the Qur'an miraculously stated that it consisted of layers, and what is more, "seven" layers

The Qur’an even goes as far as to mention how they were formed.

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)

So here we see that once the sky was a mix of gasses or "smoke" but separated each with its own service to equilibrium or "mandate"

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

If we count the number of layers, we see that the atmosphere consists of exactly seven layers, just as stated in the verse.

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate." (The Qur'an, 41:12)

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Ozonosphere

4. Mesosphere

5. Thermosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Exosphere

In the above verse 2 days are mentioned. In the Quran a day is used as a period of time.
Not that it means 2 actual days.


"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)

Here we see that each heaven has its own "mandate" or function.

Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers? (Qur'an, 71:15)

He Who created the seven heavens in layers… (Qur'an, 67:3)

We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs. (Qur'an, 21:32)
___________________________________________________________________________

“He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night.”
(Qur'an, 39:5)

Takwir: to make one thing lap over another

so here is a statment also the the earth is round.

Which one is it brother, what happended the Magetosphere....?

Please, just leave science and religious scripture apart. Drawing scientific assumptions from religious scripture really is fantastical. Nothing more, it just shouldn't be done. I could probably draw more scientific conclusions from Harry Potter than I could from any religious text.

Yusuf Mirza

Respectfuly. All you people are so blind. You believe that you are so intelligent to the point that there is nothing outside of your scope. You have become arrogant. The Holy Qur'an is the word of God. It even says in the Qur,an that "those who are righteous recognise it even as they recognise their own fathers"

Some disbelievers will never accept truth because of their arrogants. Its not like you are asking for evidence so that you can examine it with an open heart. You only want to ridicule like spoilt little children

Yusuf Mirza

Among the many scientific miracles that Quran refers to is :

(1)The big bang
(2)The gaseous state of the universe
(3)The expansion of the universe
(4))The big crunch

1 Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

So here we see that the universe was once “closed up” and then Allah “opened them”.


2 "Then He took hold of the sky when it was smoke." 41:11

So here we see that after the big bang the universe was filled with gasses or “smoke”


3 "The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily. We are expanding it." '
Heaven' is the translation of the word sama' and this is exactly the extra-terrestrial world that is meant. 'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present participle musi'una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider, more spacious, to extend, to expand'.

Here we see the heavens will then be expanded.


4 That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the pages of a book. As We originated the first creation so We will regenerate it. It is a promise binding on Us. That is what We will do. (Qur’an, 21:104)

Here we see that the Heavens shall be “rolled up”.

Yusuf Mirza

Yusuf Mirza wrote:

It even says in the Qur,an that "those who are righteous recognise it even as they recognise their own fathers"

Well of course it says that, it wants people to believe it and feel better about themselves for doing so.
Basic psychology is not evidence of religion or its truth:rolleyes:

CerebralCortex

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Respectfuly. All you people are so blind. You believe that you are so intelligent to the point that there is nothing outside of your scope. You have become arrogant.

Quite the contrary my good man.

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

The Holy Qur'an is the word of God. It even says in the Qur,an that "those who are righteous recognise it even as they recognise their own fathers"

Some disbelievers will never accept truth because of their arrogants. Its not like you are asking for evidence so that you can examine it with an open heart. You only want to ridicule like spoilt little children

Try saying that in the Christianity forum it would probably mean something to those folks we here just couldn't give a hoot.

Yusuf Mirza

this verse about the setting of the sun is a metaphor.
How often do we say that the sun ha s set on a perticuler persons sporting career for instance.

The verse says the sun has set an a people and shall rise uppon a new people.

I see nothing wrong with this do you?