The path to atheism through the study of Islam

DarkJager

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

this verse about the setting of the sun is a metaphor.
How often do we say that the sun ha s set on a perticuler persons sporting career for instance.

The verse says the sun has set an a people and shall rise uppon a new people.

I see nothing wrong with this do you?

I see nothing particularly deep about it either to be honest.

The sun usually signals the end of the day, which is why we say "the sun has set on him".

Yusuf Mirza

Well you are clutching at straws. The sun has set on them. Dont you know the famous song "dont let the sun go down on me" by Elton John and George Michael?

Dades

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Its not like you are asking for evidence so that you can examine it with an open heart. You only want to ridicule like spoilt little children

With respect, we'll never know that until you offer some.

There's really no call to go on the offensive. Did you really expect to elicit here agreement from a few lines of vagueness and metaphors?

Yusuf Mirza

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn

This above is an explanation about the verse in mention. I could explain it but well....its Saturday morning and im kinda lazy..to type....meh

robindch

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Some disbelievers will never accept truth because of their arrogants. Its not like you are asking for evidence so that you can examine it with an open heart. You only want to ridicule like spoilt little children

Well, that's not quite the way that most of us would see it

Rather, we see somebody showing up with a sheaf of well-turned Arabic metaphors and bending the language and the meaning until they match what people like us have discovered is the reality of the world.

It's not arrogant or small-minded of anybody to point out that this is what you're doing.

pH

Still waiting for you to explain these Seven Heavens ...

002.029 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

017.044 The seven heavens and the earth and all that is therein praise Him, and there is not a thing but hymneth His praise; but ye understand not their praise. Lo! He is ever Clement, Forgiving.

023.086 Say: Who is Lord of the seven heavens, and Lord of the Tremendous Throne ?

041.012 Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.

065.012 Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and of the earth the like thereof. The commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah is Able to do all things, and that Allah surroundeth all things in knowledge.

067.003 Who hath created seven heavens in harmony. Thou (Muhammad) canst see no fault in the Beneficent One's creation; then look again: Canst thou see any rifts ?

071.015 See ye not how Allah hath created seven heavens in harmony, (016) And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp ?

Are you quite sure he's referring to a division of the earth's atmosphere based on increasing or decreasing temperature?

Yusuf Mirza

Good question! Well I'm not a scientist so I cant tell you that part. Ill check it out.

DarkJager

Oh hai. In teh beginnin Ceiling Cat maded teh skiez An da Urfs, but he did not eated dem.

2 Da Urfs no had shapez An haded dark face, An Ceiling Cat rode invisible bike over teh waterz.

3 At start, no has lyte. An Ceiling Cat sayz, i can haz lite? An lite wuz.

4 An Ceiling Cat sawed teh lite, to seez stuffs, An splitted teh lite from dark but taht wuz ok cuz kittehs can see in teh dark An not tripz over nethin.

5 An Ceiling Cat sayed light Day An dark no Day. It were FURST!!!1

6 An Ceiling Cat sayed, im in ur waterz makin a ceiling. But he no yet make a ur. An he maded a hole in teh Ceiling.

7 An Ceiling Cat doed teh skiez with waterz down An waterz up. It happen.

8 An Ceiling Cat sayed, i can has teh firmmint wich iz funny bibel naim 4 ceiling, so wuz teh twoth day.

9 An Ceiling Cat gotted all teh waterz in ur base, An Ceiling Cat hadz dry placez cuz kittehs DO NOT WANT get wet.

10 An Ceiling Cat called no waterz urth and waters oshun. Iz good.

11 An Ceiling Cat sayed, DO WANT grass! so tehr wuz seedz An stufs, An fruitzors An vegbatels. An a Corm. It happen.

12 An Ceiling Cat sawed that weedz ish good, so, letz there be weedz.

13 An so teh threeth day jazzhands.

14 An Ceiling Cat sayed, i can has lightz in the skiez for splittin day An no day.

15 It happen, lights everwear, like christmass, srsly.

16 An Ceiling Cat doeth two grate lightz, teh most big for day, teh other for no day.

17 An Ceiling Cat screw tehm on skiez, with big nails An stuff, to lite teh Urfs.

18 An tehy rulez day An night. Ceiling Cat sawed. Iz good.

19 An so teh furth day w00t.

20 An Ceiling Cat sayed, waterz bring me phishes, An burds, so kittehs can eat dem. But Ceiling Cat no eated dem.

21 An Ceiling Cat maed big fishies An see monstrs, which wuz like big cows, except they no mood, An other stuffs dat mooves, An Ceiling Cat sawed iz good.

22 An Ceiling Cat sed O hai, make bebehs kthx. An dont worry i wont watch u secksy, i not that kynd uf kitteh.

23 An so teh...fith day. Ceiling Cat taek a wile 2 cawnt.

24 An Ceiling Cat sayed, i can has MOAR living stuff, mooes, An creepie tings, An otehr aminals. It happen so tehre.

25 An Ceiling Cat doed moar living stuff, mooes, An creepies, An otehr animuls, An did not eated tehm.

26 An Ceiling Cat sayed, letz us do peeps like uz, becuz we ish teh qte, An let min p0wnz0r becuz tehy has can openers.

27 So Ceiling Cat createded teh peeps taht waz like him, can has can openers he maed tehm, min An womin wuz maeded, but he did not eated tehm.

28 An Ceiling Cat sed them O hai maek bebehs kthx, An p0wn teh waterz, no waterz An teh firmmint, An evry stufs.

29 An Ceiling Cat sayed, Beholdt, the Urfs, I has it, An I has not eated it.

30 For evry createded stufs tehre are the fuudz, to the burdies, teh creepiez, An teh mooes, so tehre. It happen. Iz good.

31 An Ceiling Cat sayed, Beholdt, teh good enouf for releaze as version 0.8a. kthxbai.

Yusuf Mirza

"An by the sky which returns” Qur’an 86:11

Here we hear the concept evaporation.

"Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you
see the rain come out of it..." (Qur'an 24:43)

Meteorologists have only recently come to know these details of cloud formation, structure, and function by using advanced equipment like planes, satellites, computers, balloons, and other equipment to study wind and its direction, to measure humidity and its variations, and to determine the levels and variations of atmospheric pressure.

"... And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight."} (Qur'an 24:43)

Meteorologists have found that these cumlonimbus clouds, that shower hail, reach a height of 25,000 to 30,000 ft. (4.7 to 5.7 miles) like mountains, as the Qur'an says;

"...And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky..."

Stacking: When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase. The updrafts near the center of the cloud are stronger than those near the edges. These updrafts cause the cloud body to grow vertically, so the cloud is stacked up. This vertical growth causes the cloud body to stretch into cooler regions of the atmosphere, where drops of water and hail formulate and begin to grow larger and larger. When these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail, etc.

pH

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

"An by the sky which returns” Qur’an 86:11

Here we hear the concept evaporation.
<SNIP>
When these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail, etc.

It's very bad manners to copy and paste text from other parts of the internet and attempt to pass it off as your own work. At the very least make it clear you're copying someone else, even more preferable would be a link back to where you found it.
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/quran/miracles/quran_clouds.asp

Yusuf Mirza

Your right copping and pasting is plagiarism. Ill have to be more careful in the future. So anyway this does not change the facts. What so you think of my posting?

DarkJager

Yusuf, you asked me on my profile to explain my last post. Well, if you must know, its the wisdom of ceiling cat that I have imparted to you today. Much like text from the Quran or the bible, its completely baffling to those that don't understand it, and probably doesn't make much sense to those who do. I hope this clears things up for you.

Yusuf Mirza

There is a difference between sayings something after it has happened and revealing something before it has happened. Why not take a look again at this verse.

“Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, and then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it”

So 1) the clouds glide along gently (on the wind) 2)They join together 3) they form into a stack 4) rain comes out.

No only within the last few decades have we found out these facts. We cannot see with the naked eye what is happening above the clouds. We can’t see what happened above the cloud line. We had to invent weather balloons, satalites, computer models and planes to realise what the Qur’an has already told us. The Qur’an is consistent.

MackDeToaster

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

So anyway this does not change the facts. What so you think of my posting?

I don't think anything of it. So a book said there's clouds in the sky and rain and hail comes out of them, er, so what That doesn't explain anything, it's only an observation same as could be made anytime, anywhere

Yusuf Mirza

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

"An by the sky which returns” Qur’an 86:11

Here we hear the concept evaporation.

"Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you
see the rain come out of it..." (Qur'an 24:43)

Meteorologists have only recently come to know these details of cloud formation, structure, and function by using advanced equipment like planes, satellites, computers, balloons, and other equipment to study wind and its direction, to measure humidity and its variations, and to determine the levels and variations of atmospheric pressure.

"... And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight."} (Qur'an 24:43)

Meteorologists have found that these cumlonimbus clouds, that shower hail, reach a height of 25,000 to 30,000 ft. (4.7 to 5.7 miles) like mountains, as the Qur'an says;

"...And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky..."

Stacking: When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase. The updrafts near the center of the cloud are stronger than those near the edges. These updrafts cause the cloud body to grow vertically, so the cloud is stacked up. This vertical growth causes the cloud body to stretch into cooler regions of the atmosphere, where drops of water and hail formulate and begin to grow larger and larger. When these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail, etc.

Oh please, Humans have always known that the big fluffy things in the sky join together, and this unusual watery stuff falls out of them in the form of droplets. They've known it for thousands of years. Why? Because they have eyes. Don't try and say meteorologists have only recently discovered that rain comes from clouds, because that's basically what you're saying. Are you comletely blinded by your religion?

Yusuf Mirza

It says how it happens. It tels us the science behing happenings that dont seem very extraordinary but in fact are.

Not that rain come from clouds but "how" rain comes from clouds.

Nodin

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Respectfuly. All you people are so blind. You believe that you are so intelligent to the point that there is nothing outside of your scope. You have become arrogant. The Holy Qur'an is the word of God. It even says in the Qur,an that "those who are righteous recognise it even as they recognise their own fathers"

Some disbelievers will never accept truth because of their arrogants. Its not like you are asking for evidence so that you can examine it with an open heart. You only want to ridicule like spoilt little children

Actually you'll find few of us bother to ridicule religous texts off our own bat. When somebody turns up and starts making claims for texts that are ridiculous, we do, because far be it from anyone to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Yusuf Mirza

Hay i dont mind. I enjoy a challenge. Go on then gimme a scientific subject and ill find the answer in the quran.

Yusuf Mirza

http://www.thekeytoislam.com/en/scientific-explanations/oceans.shtml

Quran on the Barrier Between Seas

Allah says:

(And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water): this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter; and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.) (25:53)

The fact that the water of the oceans do not mix with each other, has only been discovered lately by oceanographers. This is due to the physical force called "surface tension"26; therefore, waters of neighboring seas do not mix. It is caused by the difference in the density of their waters; surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them. The Amazon River's water pours into the Atlantic Ocean and yet preserves its traits even after it goes out 200 meters in the Ocean.

(Or [the state of a disbeliever] is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with waves topped by waves, topped by dark clouds, (layers of) darkness upon darkness: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allah has not appointed light for him there is no light.) (24:40)

It is well-known and affirmed scientifically that in the extreme depths of the ocean there is no light only darkness. The cause for this is that sunrays cannot reach it, for oceans range from a few hundred meters deep to being 11034 meters deep! The darkness in deep seas and oceans is found around a depth of 200 meters and below. At this depth, there is almost no light. Below a depth of 1000 meters there is no light at all. Therefore, most of the sun's rays are absorbed by the water at 100 meters. This portion of the sea is known as the luminous portion. Thereafter 1% of the sun's rays are visible at 150 meters, and 0.01% of the rays at 200 meters.

The ozone layer in the atmosphere reflects most of the ultra-violet rays, whereas the clouds reflect 30% and absorbs 19% of these rays. Only 51% of these rays reach the sea; between 3 and 30 % of the sunlight is reflected at the sea surface. Then almost all of the seven colors of the light spectrum are absorbed one after another in the first 200 meters, except the blue light.

"Waves toped by waves"

Scientists have recently discovered that there are internal waves which "occur on density interfaces between layers of different densities"28. The internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because the deep waters have a higher density than the waters above them. Internal waves act like surface waves. They can also break, just like surface waves. Internal waves cannot be seen by the human eye, but they can be detected by studying temperature or salinity changes at a given location.

Yusuf Mirza

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

It says how it happens. It tels us the science behing happenings that dont seem very extraordinary but in fact are.

Not that rain come from clouds but "how" rain comes from clouds.

How on earth does it explain the science behind it?! Give me one passage that does so, not a vague passage, not a passage that describes an observation, a passage that explains the science behind it. If you show me one, and it explains the science, then you'll have some credence, but until then, you don't.

DarkJager

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Hay i dont mind. I enjoy a challenge. Go on then gimme a scientific subject and ill find the answer in the quran.

If you don't mind me asking, what exactly are you hoping to prove here? You are talking to people who live in "reality" and have no interest at all in religions or what they claim within their books.

For the past number of posts, you have been telling us how the rain is made and you'll have to forgive me for saying that this conversation is going in pointless circles completely irrelevant to the original topic.

Yusuf Mirza

... And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight.
[Noble Quran 24:43]

Here we see that there is a relationship between hail and lightning.
In fact this is true. there is a relationship.
Hail creates Kennetic energy which causes lightning.
Here hail is mentioned first and then Lightning is mentioned.

Yusuf Mirza

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Hay i dont mind. I enjoy a challenge. Go on then gimme a scientific subject and ill find the answer in the quran.

quantum physics and general relativity


edit: and then explain why one thing being true means its source is infallible

Yusuf Mirza

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

... And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight.
[Noble Quran 24:43]

Here we see that there is a relation between hail and lightning.
In fact this is true. there is a relationship.
Hail creates Kennetic energy which causes lightning.
Here hail is mentioned first and then Lightning is mentioned.

Hail isn't the only cause for lightning. That's a ridiculous thought, and your saying that has just removed any validity from your arguments.

That passage is so vague that it could be interpreted any way you wanted. It doesn't describe, in a scientific way, how rain, hail or lightning actually happens. Can you not see that it is just an observation? Are you trying to tell me that for thousands of years, people didn't know rain, hail and lightning came from the clouds? Just look at what you're saying, it's ridiculous.

Are you so blind that you can't see that?

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

quantum physics and general relativity

Be careful, we don't want the mighty Quran debunking Einstein or Schrodinger.:pac:

-JammyDodger-

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Be careful, we don't want the mighty Quran debunking Einstein or Schrodinger.:pac:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/blueywolf/einstein.jpg

Yusuf Mirza

quantum physics

104 – 2:10

Woe to every backbiter, slanderer,

Who amasses wealth and counts it over and over.

He imagines that his wealth will make him immortal.

Nay! he shall surely be cast into the "hotamah".

And what should make thee know what the "hotamah" is?

Allah's fire as preserved fuel,

Which will leap suddenly on to the hearts.

It is locked up in outstretched pillars to be used against them.


So here we hear about the “Hotamah”

And what is the Hotamah? Well we are told it is a preserved fuel. So it is a source of feul which was at that time not utilised or preserved.

It suddenly leaps at the hearts when activated. How? If a nuclear explosion were to happen gammas rays would shoot out in every direction and these rays would stop your heart even before you are hit by the blast. It shall “leap” “suddenly”.

It is locked into outstretched pillars. Now when an Atom is split it first elongates and then when it splits it releases energy.

“Will be used against them” is a prophecy of nuclear war.

Also the word “Hotamah” sounds a lot like Atom. Hotam – Atom.

Yusuf Mirza

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

quantum physics

104 – 2:10

Woe to every backbiter, slanderer,

Who amasses wealth and counts it over and over.

He imagines that his wealth will make him immortal.

Nay! he shall surely be cast into the "hotamah".

And what should make thee know what the "hotamah" is?

Allah's fire as preserved fuel,

Which will leap suddenly on to the hearts.

It is locked up in outstretched pillars to be used against them.


So here we hear about the “Hotamah”

And what is the Hotamah? Well we are told it is a preserved fuel. So it is a source of feul which was at that time not utilised or preserved.

It suddenly leaps at the hearts when activated. How? If a nuclear explosion were to happen gammas rays would shoot out in every direction and these rays would stop your heat even before you are hit by the blast. It shall “leap” “suddenly”.

It is locked into outstretched pillars. Now when an Atom is split it first elongates and then when it splits it releases energy.

“Will be used against them” is a prophecy of nuclear war.

Also the word “Hotamah” sounds a lot like Atom. Hotam – Atom.

I said quantum physics, not "make a really, really long stretch to describing an atom".
Seriously, "they sound alike" is the best you have? Many words from different languages sound alike, that has absolutely no bearing on anything.
And a vague description of hell raining down upon prideful people is supposed to be physics? are you serious? This is ridiculous.
Threats of hell in the bible never stretch to "it's obviously nuclear war", it's threats of pride going before a fall
sigh

edit: I'm 'sister' thanks

Yusuf Mirza

Well brother im off till Monday and tanx for your time. I shall pray for you all that you become Muslim inshallah.

your friend

Yusuf

Yusuf Mirza

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Well brother im off till Monday and tanx for your time. I shall pray for you all that you become Muslim inshallah.

your friend

Yusuf

Please don't pray for me, just think for me instead... Or are they the same thing? Hmmm...

Anyway, I can't take this debate seriously anymore.