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Is it wrong the hate Judaism?

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    #92
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Hivemind187 wrote: »
    I am amazed that this wasnt locked or moved to politics or somewhere more approriate since I cant really see what the association to atheism anti-semitism has (and it is anti-semitism if you cant separate the ethnic group from the actions of a national governmet).

    Can someone drop the Godwin bomb now please?

    It occurred to me today that this subject is actually quite relevant to the A&A board.

    After all, Israel is far and way the most secular nation in the Middle East - with possibly more open atheists and agnostics than in all of the combined neighbouring countries. And they are in conflict with a fundamentalist religious organisation which uses a holy book to justify firing rockets into this highly secular nation.

    In fact, I'm trying to imagine the outcry there would be on this board if a fundamentalist Christian organisation was using the Bible to justify firing dozens of rockets a day into the most secular nation in Europe (Sweden?).

    Which makes me wonder how much professed atheism is actually just good old fashioned hatred of Judeo-Christian values.


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    #93
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    Which makes me wonder how much professed atheism is actually just good old fashioned hatred of Judeo-Christian values.

    The automatic acceptance of Palestine tactics, and the automatic demonization of Israel stems more from the political ideology and romanticism of a struggling, suffering, nation oppressed by a more powerful nation

    All of which is nonsense of course, but I think you will have to go far and wide to find many atheists who love Muslim extremism :pac:

    In my experience the support for Palestine stems more from an ignorance of how religious Hamas actually is. I'm rather surprised when I meet "Down with Israel" types who seem genuinely not to know that Hamas is basically the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Possibly this stems from the confusing Hamas with Fatah, which was far more secular.


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    #94
    Craft25
    Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭Craft25


    PDN wrote: »
    It occurred to me today that this subject is actually quite relevant to the A&A board.

    After all, Israel is far and way the most secular nation in the Middle East - with possibly more open atheists and agnostics than in all of the combined neighbouring countries. And they are in conflict with a fundamentalist religious organisation which uses a holy book to justify firing rockets into this highly secular nation.

    In fact, I'm trying to imagine the outcry there would be on this board if a fundamentalist Christian organisation was using the Bible to justify firing dozens of rockets a day into the most secular nation in Europe (Sweden?).

    Which makes me wonder how much professed atheism is actually just good old fashioned hatred of Judeo-Christian values.

    I cant see the relevance of what Narrative is used to justify killing.. killing is killing... do you think palestinians fire rockets into israel based on the quaran or for other reasons: loads of dissaffected, penned in young men with nothing to do but fight back (see youth bulge theory for war under wikepedia war page)

    anyway.. the nazi's used science (we can call it pseudoscience now but at the time) to justify their actions..

    Stalin's work was based on the enlightened theories of marx & lenin

    GW Bush, Based all his killing on the lofty tried and tested ideal of democracy...

    the point is that since the enlightenment, and more 'scientific' narratives to explain the world.. killing has not lessened from darker times...

    Interestingly... confuscianism in china has been shown to bring the most relative stability... and in the periods that it fell out of favour war and killing spiked


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    #95
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    PDN wrote: »
    In fact, I'm trying to imagine the outcry there would be on this board if a fundamentalist Christian organisation was using the Bible to justify firing dozens of rockets a day into the most secular nation in Europe (Sweden?).
    I assume you've created this analogy having drawn the conclusion that there is a pro-Palestinian bias here in A&A? This very recent chapter in the lengthy history of the Middle East may currently show the Israelis as the oppressors, but I doubt many atheists here have much time for Hamas, or fundamentalist Muslims who want an Islamic State - or to wipe another State off the map.

    Do not mistake criticism of one side as support for the other.
    PDN wrote: »
    Which makes me wonder how much professed atheism is actually just good old fashioned hatred of Judeo-Christian values.
    Ah, ya gotta hate those Judeo-Christian values. Christmas was a living nightmare. :pac:


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    #96
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    PDN wrote: »
    It occurred to me today that this subject is actually quite relevant to the A(.............)values.

    A statement which presumes that condemnation of Israel is equivalent to support of Hamas, that secular and atheistic is automaticially seen as "good", and omits consideration of Israels treatement of the Palestinians, its own Arab citizens, and the history of Israels occupation of the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.


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    #97
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Nodin wrote: »
    A statement which presumes that condemnation of Israel is equivalent to support of Hamas, that secular and atheistic is automaticially seen as "good", and omits consideration of Israels treatement of the Palestinians, its own Arab citizens, and the history of Israels occupation of the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.

    Well condemnation of Israel without condemnation of Hamas would imply support.

    As for Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, what about Hamas' treatment of their own people?

    There is a chance for peace if all the Palestinian groups are willing to get onboard.

    I generally withdraw from "occupation" type rhethoric, as I support a One State Solution where Israelis and Palestinians live as citizens together as opposed to the Two State Solution which failed from the outset in 1948.


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    #98
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Well condemnation of Israel without condemnation of Hamas would imply support..

    According to you.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    As for Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, what about Hamas' treatment of their own people?..

    What about Saudis treatment of its 'guest' workers? Its about as relevant.

    The facts are you'd be hard pushed to find anyone actively defending Hamas, Saudi or most of the nation states records down that way. However one state is offered the 'cloak of respectability'. I and a large number of others beg to differ.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I generally withdraw from "occupation" type rhethoric, as I support a One State Solution where Israelis and Palestinians live as citizens together as opposed to the Two State Solution which failed from the outset in 1948.

    Apart from the risk of massive communal violence (far worse than whats going on at the moment), , and the risk of abuse of power by either party, all major Israeli political parties are committed to maintaining a Jewish majority. Thats why only Arab East Jerusalem has been annexed in Israeli law, and not the West Bank or Gaza.


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    #99
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    PDN wrote: »
    In fact, I'm trying to imagine the outcry there would be on this board if a fundamentalist Christian organisation was using the Bible to justify firing dozens of rockets a day into the most secular nation in Europe (Sweden?)..

    That would entirely depend on whether Sweden was occupying part or whole of that peoples state, outside its own borders.
    PDN wrote: »
    Which makes me wonder how much professed atheism is actually just good old fashioned hatred of Judeo-Christian values.

    Cromwellian Judaeo-christian values, yes. Add a few hundred years progress, no.


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    #100
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    PDN wrote: »
    It occurred to me today that this subject is actually quite relevant to the A&A board.

    After all, Israel is far and way the most secular nation in the Middle East - with possibly more open atheists and agnostics than in all of the combined neighbouring countries. And they are in conflict with a fundamentalist religious organisation which uses a holy book to justify firing rockets into this highly secular nation.

    In fact, I'm trying to imagine the outcry there would be on this board if a fundamentalist Christian organisation was using the Bible to justify firing dozens of rockets a day into the most secular nation in Europe (Sweden?).

    Which makes me wonder how much professed atheism is actually just good old fashioned hatred of Judeo-Christian values.

    I would've thought Turkey was more secular-Israel is for a start founded on the principle of a holy land as outlined in the bible, and any jew who wishes can gain automatic citizenship based on their religion. Just as a start, neither of these are secular values. Turkey on the other hand goes to great lengths to keep the church out of the state, perhaps not always succeeding, but that's to be expected.


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    #101
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    I hope the OP has the decency to understand and learn about Judaism before making an incredible statement like that.

    I am guessing he is mixing up his politics with religion.


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    #102
    humberklog
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,547 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    Zamboni wrote: »
    I will not disagree with that.
    But show me a Jew that says the Israeli attacks in the Gaza are not justified and I will retract my statement.

    I'm Jewish (very secular background and peaceful like the majority of Jews i know and I served and studied engineering with the IDF early in the early 90's) and I say that the Israeli attacks in the Gaza are not justified.


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    #103
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyguinness wrote: »

    I am guessing he is mixing up his politics with religion.

    Personally I thought he was just trolling.


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