Martin O'Neill - Great manager or blessed by circumstances?

Xavi6 · 31-12-2008 7:24am #1

I was listening to Gabriel Marcotti on the Times podcast there yesterday and the debate was raised about successors to Alex Ferguson and O'Neill's name was mentioned. Marcotti sniggered and basically said that while O'Neill is a decent manager he has spent a fortune on players and has benefitted from youth players who came through the academy under previous regimes.

I'm not a Villa fan so don't know the ins and outs but on the surface it seems to be quite a valid point. Lerner came in at just the right time for O'Neill to benefit and the likes of Agbonlahor who was being nurtured at Villa before the current manager's arrival.

I'm not trying to take away from Villa's achievement's this season because they've been brilliant, just wondering if it can all be attributed to O'Neill.

Carroller16 · 31-12-2008 7:27am

O'Neill is an excellent manager... although he has spent a lot.. he has made some great signings - Laursen and Freidel for one .... and the youth they've brought through is outstandin... Agbonlahor - Young... I think most of it can be put down to him

Zebra3 · 31-12-2008 7:55am

I GuanYin wrote: »

I was listening to Gabriel Marcotti on the Times podcast there yesterday and the debate was raised about successors to Alex Ferguson and O'Neill's name was mentioned. Marcotti sniggered and basically said that while O'Neill is a decent manager he has spent a fortune on players and has benefitted from youth players who came through the academy under previous regimes.

I'm not a Villa fan so don't know the ins and outs but on the surface it seems to be quite a valid point. Lerner came in at just the right time for O'Neill to benefit and the likes of Agbonlahor who was being nurtured at Villa before the current manager's arrival.

I'm not trying to take away from Villa's achievement's this season because they've been brilliant, just wondering if it can all be attributed to O'Neill.

You do know that Villa is not the first club MO'N has managed?

Xavi6 · 31-12-2008 9:13am

Zebra3 wrote: »

You do know that Villa is not the first club MO'N has managed?

Of course I do, he's the reason I started looking out for Wycombe in 1993. He did a solid job at Leicester with limited resources. I don't really see a manager's performance at Celtic as being too significant beacuse no one should struggle to win the SPL with them.

The Villa job is totally different to any of them though.

_blank_ · 31-12-2008 9:37am

Did good things with Leicester imo, he seems to be a decent "small fish, big pond" manager, but his fish have been getting bigger all the time.

I would also remove his Celtic time from his CV, I could have managed Celtic to at least one SPL title, to be fair.

therecklessone · 31-12-2008 9:56am

I GuanYin wrote: »

Marcotti sniggered and basically said that while O'Neill is a decent manager he has spent a fortune on players and has benefitted from youth players who came through the academy under previous regimes.

Marcotti sounds like he needs to do some homework so.

At most, O'Neill inherited Barry, Laursen, Bouma, Mellberg (now departed) and Agbonlahor who were first team quality, or good enough to make his current first team if you will.

The majority of the squad he is working with now he has brought in himself, and apart from the summer just gone for a relatively small outlay. The only blot on his copybook in re. to transfers is the fact that they've brought in so little, but I'd lay the value of outgoing players at the door of previous regimes for buying them in the first place.

O'Neill is a quality manager, he kept Leicester in the top half of the PL and brought them to three league cup finals, winning two, on a shoestring.

At Celtic he was maintained a dominant position over their Old Firm rivals while spending very little as well.

And while he has spent about £65m net in his 3 years at Villa, can anyone really say the players he's signed have not been value for money?

[edit]actually, I'll say O'Neill is a very good manager, but will need to win some silverware at Villa or at the least qualify for the CL and not look out of place once in there to be considered quality[edit]

A Dub in Glasgo · 31-12-2008 10:22am

Des wrote: »

I could have managed Celtic to at least one SPL title, to be fair.

No, you could not

All this talk about removing his spell at Celtic as that does not count is utter tripe and just betrays the ignorance of the person spouting it.

_blank_ · 31-12-2008 10:27am

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

No, you could not

All this talk about removing his spell at Celtic as that does not count is utter tripe and just betrays the ignorance of the person spouting it.

If a manager managed Celtic/Rangers for as long as O'Neill did, and didn't win at least one title, they should be strung up.

Managing Celtic/Rangers to titles is not an achievement.

Xavi6 · 31-12-2008 10:29am

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

No, you could not

All this talk about removing his spell at Celtic as that does not count is utter tripe and just betrays the ignorance of the person spouting it.

Rubbish.

Any manager worth his salt could/should win an SPL title with Celtic. It's not exactly something to light up a CV with.

Mr Alan · 31-12-2008 10:30am

he got to a UEFA cup final with Celtic too in fairness

_blank_ · 31-12-2008 10:32am

Mr Alan wrote: »

he got to a UEFA cup final with Celtic too in fairness

didn't win it but.

Mr Alan · 31-12-2008 10:37am

lost to Joses Porto side iirc, now O'Neill is good, but he aint no special one.

Kinetic^ · 31-12-2008 10:38am

Great manager.

Mr Alan · 31-12-2008 10:39am

fraid not Kinetic.

Great managers win great trophies, build great teams.

At the moment he is a good manager, with a good team.

A Dub in Glasgo · 31-12-2008 10:40am

Des wrote: »

If a manager managed Celtic/Rangers for as long as O'Neill did, and didn't win at least one title, they should be strung up.

Does not apply to O'Neill then. As for your stance that you could manage Celtic and win the title... well that is just laughable and does betray your ignorance

Managing Celtic/Rangers to titles is not an achievement.

Managing any club to a title is an achievement

I GuanYin wrote: »

Rubbish.

Any manager worth his salt could/should win an SPL title with Celtic. It's not exactly something to light up a CV with.

See above

kingshankly · 31-12-2008 10:40am

o neil is a decent manager at best has made some good signings and i would say hes a great motivator but lack tactical nous if they qualify for champions league will see how good he is

_blank_ · 31-12-2008 10:56am

O'Neill is a decent manager, no doubt, the test of his mettle will be if he can establish Villa as a top four team, to replace Liverpool/Arsenal (the two most precarious of the present CL teams). If he can do that, then Villa won't look out of place in the CL, given the current dominance of English clubs in that competition.

Some might say that the cards have fallen for him, but even still. Given a couple of years of Villa making it past the group stage, then a progression to the quarters then semi finals, over time, and he'd be considered as being better.

Some silverware along the way too, an FA Cup or UEFA Cup, would help.

Mr Alan · 31-12-2008 10:58am

precarious?!

someone should point out the league table to you young man

JPA · 31-12-2008 12:21pm

You know he didn't sign on at Villa and a week later Randy takes over by lucky coincidence!

Villain · 31-12-2008 12:48pm

Just for the record it was David O'Leary that signed Laursen but he missed a season with injury.

I think MON's best quality is team morale and getting the best out of players, I mean people thought buying Ashley Young for almost £10m was crazy at the time, just look at our last 2 games if Villa were in the same position years ago they would have let the game go by and lost the two games, but under MON they have a great self belief and never say die attitude.

I do personally think he rely's on that a little too much sometimes and isn't the strongest tactician ever but he has got something that gets the best out of players and a team.

Also while he may have spent a lot of money you have to remember that Villa had the smallest squad at the end of last season and also lost Mellberg and Berger too.

If he can break that top 4 in the next two seasons he will really have proved himself.

Mr Alan · 31-12-2008 12:57pm

he needs to break the top 4 consistantly. not once.

A Dub in Glasgo · 31-12-2008 1:00pm

MON is a fantastic team motivator. He can eek out the best in players. His judgement in the transfer market is a bit suspect although I assume that is why clubs have a scouting system. He is not the best tactician and he sometimes keeps to what he knows and his favourite players. He also leaves it late to use subs (this seems to be a trait among lots of managers).

The above is based on his time with Celtic

_blank_ · 31-12-2008 1:12pm

Mr Alan wrote: »

he needs to break the top 4 consistantly. not once.

Agreed.

SantryRed · 31-12-2008 1:14pm

Carroller16 wrote: »

O'Neill is an excellent manager... although he has spent a lot.. he has made some great signings - Laursen and Freidel for one .... and the youth they've brought through is outstandin... Agbonlahor - Young... I think most of it can be put down to him

Don't mean to be picky but Young wasn't brought up in Villa. They paid Watford 10 million for him;)

Frankie Lee · 31-12-2008 1:24pm

He's also probably the best manager in the premiership for improving ordinary players.

He helped Steve Guppy get an england cap.
He made Didier Agathe look good, he made Momo Sylla look average.
He made Colin Healy and Liam Miller look like they were going to be great players.
Look how much Agbonlahor has improved, Gareth Barry also even Luke Young looks good this season.

The millions he paid for Ashley Young looks like a bargain now. Friedel is the signing of the season so far. However some of his signings have been poor, Nicky Shorey is a defensive liability, Salifou is rubbish and Sidwell wasn't the best option to buy for a central midfielder.

If he does break the top four and wins a PL in the coming years with Villa, then he can be considered a great manager, until then he will remain a very good one.
As for Fergie's successor Jose would be my favourite for it followed by O'Neill, Moyes and a possible dark horse in Solksjaer.

DSB · 31-12-2008 1:32pm

No idea how anyone can even doubt him anymore. Constant progression, just like with Wycombe and Leicester. From bottom half of the table, to midtable, to 6th, and now hopefully to Champions League. Genuinely wouldn't be surprised if the next step for him is a title push.

Dempsey · 31-12-2008 1:40pm

therecklessone wrote: »

At Celtic he was maintained a dominant position over their Old Firm rivals while spending very little as well.

You dont know much about what he did at Celtic going by that comment

PHB · 31-12-2008 1:40pm

IMO, he's a great motivator, an average tactician, but a very good judge of player ability. His signing of Young was just a fantastic move, he took a risk, and it has paid him off tenfold.

He's a good manager, not a great manager (ala Fergie, Wenger etc.
If however he can manage to get Villa into the top 4 this year, and actually keep his team (i.e. Young

), he could become a top manager, and maybe even take over from Fergie when his time comes.

Mr Alan · 31-12-2008 1:40pm

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Friedel is the signing of the season so far.

you are aware that Friedels form hasnt been the best since he joined Villa, right?

eirebhoy · 31-12-2008 1:43pm

1 Brad Friedel
22 Brad Guzan
2 Luke Young
3 Wilfred Bouma
5 Martin Laursen
15 Curtis Davies
16 Zat Knight
21 Nicky Shorey
24 Cuéllar
4 Steve Sidwell
6 Gareth Barry
7 Ashley Young
8 James Milner
19 Stiliyan Petrov
20 Nigel Reo-Coker
9 Marlon Harewood
10 John Carew
11 Gabriel Agbonlahor

That's his main squad. He bought 14 of those players. He spent net £60m. Average of £4.3m per player.

Someone call Roy Keane and tell him how easy it is to make the top 5.

DSB · 31-12-2008 1:45pm

Friedel just had a shaky start, he has been top notch otherwise in my opinion. I genuinely don't understand all the fuss about Wenger these days. I used to be a huge fan, but he is fundamentally flawed in that he just won't make the move to turn Arsenal into something great. He has a great eye for a player, and constantly brings through good young players, but it has been pre-Mourinho Chelsea since we've seen a truly impressive Arsenal that could genuinely look like taking the title. The man genuinely seems to be living on past glories, I keep hearing people talk about how much he does on such little resources, but in reality, what has he done on such little resources? He had his great days but since Vieira and Henry were sold on, Arsenal have not been realistic contenders at all, representing a complete fall from grace under Wenger.

Mr Alan · 31-12-2008 1:47pm

i agree with you DSB

L'prof · 31-12-2008 2:03pm

DSB wrote: »

Friedel just had a shaky start, he has been top notch otherwise in my opinion. I genuinely don't understand all the fuss about Wenger these days. I used to be a huge fan, but he is fundamentally flawed in that he just won't make the move to turn Arsenal into something great. He has a great eye for a player, and constantly brings through good young players, but it has been pre-Mourinho Chelsea since we've seen a truly impressive Arsenal that could genuinely look like taking the title. The man genuinely seems to be living on past glories, I keep hearing people talk about how much he does on such little resources, but in reality, what has he done on such little resources? He had his great days but since Vieira and Henry were sold on, Arsenal have not been realistic contenders at all, representing a complete fall from grace under Wenger.

In all fairness, that's like saying Liverpool haven't been title contenders since 1990 when in fact they clearly are now as Arsenal were last season! Yes they imploded, but they played some fantastic football.

The fuss about Wenger is that he's turned a mid-table team into a top 4 team, completely changed the way Arsenal play football, won titles, broken records, built a new stadium and all this for a mere net expenditure of £4-5m per year (bar the stadium obviously)! Things aren't looking so rosy at the moment, but I fear for Arsenal without Wenger and fully expect him to turn things around and win more trophies!

Highsider · 31-12-2008 2:05pm

To me O'Neill seems like a good solid manager with big club potential. He seems to get the most out of the players he has and would like to see what he could do with a quality group of players. Would'nt say he is in the top tier of managers by a distance but given time and money at the right club he has the potential to be up there with the best of them.

PHB · 31-12-2008 2:09pm

The man genuinely seems to be living on past glories, I keep hearing people talk about how much he does on such little resources, but in reality, what has he done on such little resources?

He gave Arsenal 3 league titles and 4 FA Cups, with a net spend of nothing. He spent no money. At all!
Now he is keeping them in the top4, with less than no money to spend, while managing their transition to a new stadium. They got to a CL final and put in a really good challenge for the league last year, all on no money. At all. Compared to what the other 3 have had to spend. If I'm not mistaken, only 2 other teams have spent less money than them in the PL. The entire PL.

Mr Alan · 31-12-2008 2:15pm

at the time when he was winning titles and trophies was his net spend nothing?

doubt it.

Highsider · 31-12-2008 2:26pm

TBH it's just plain silly to be questioning Wenger. The man has his flaws but that should'nt distract from what he has done in his time at the Arsenal. Seems to me the press have turned their attention towards Wenger now as Arsenal fight it out with Villa for the forth place finish this season. Shades of Rafa last season maybe? Unfortunatly fairweather fans seem to jump on the manager bashing bandwagon when the media turn on said manager. Some of the guff i'm even hearing from Arsenal fans on radio phone in's and forum's is really unbelievable. Some even calling for him to be replaced by Mourinho at the end of the season :rolleyes:. Opps sorry way of topic. Me bad.

Villain · 31-12-2008 2:27pm

Mr Alan wrote: »

you are aware that Friedels form hasnt been the best since he joined Villa, right?

I don't know about that he has been in great form, he had one or two moments in the first few games but thats what happens when you change 3 of the back 4 and keeper it takes time to get to know each other and get an understanding and he now has been playing brilliantly he has got a couple of MOM awards if I remember correctly.

mike65 · 31-12-2008 2:29pm

Off topic but Martin O'Neill is addressing the Irish nation now on RTE radio 1

PHB · 31-12-2008 2:31pm

During 96-04, his trophy winning years, his net spend per year was about 6 million. Net spend of 6 million a year leading to 3 leagues and 4 FA Cups. Unqualified unadultered outstanding.

L'prof · 31-12-2008 2:39pm

PHB wrote: »

He gave Arsenal 3 league titles and 4 FA Cups, with a net spend of nothing. He spent no money. At all!
Now he is keeping them in the top4, with less than no money to spend, while managing their transition to a new stadium. They got to a CL final and put in a really good challenge for the league last year, all on no money. At all. Compared to what the other 3 have had to spend. If I'm not mistaken, only 2 other teams have spent less money than them in the PL. The entire PL.

I think it's just Blackburn this year!

Mr Alan wrote: »

at the time when he was winning titles and trophies was his net spend nothing?

doubt it.

Of course there are going to be fluctuations! I'll break it down though!

98 Double: €6.76m/year
02 Double: €5.37m/year
03 FA Cup: €4.80m/year
04 Unbeaten: €9.22m/year
05 FA Cup: €9.09m/year
Now: €5.98m/year

A net spend of €77.7m in his 13th season...Benitez, Ferguson, Man City, Spurs, Keane have all spent more in the last 2 seasons!!!

Anyway, back on topic! O'Neill is a very good manager who has continually improved Villa since his arrival and they are now genuine top 4 contenders so fair play to him!

Frisbee · 31-12-2008 2:46pm

Personally I rate MON very highly.
Think he's a great manager who's done very well with what he was given at Villa

ciaran76 · 31-12-2008 2:59pm

mike65 wrote: »

Off topic but Martin O'Neill is addressing the Irish nation now on RTE radio 1

He spoke really well.

therecklessone · 31-12-2008 3:01pm

Dempsey wrote: »

You dont know much about what he did at Celtic going by that comment

Is that right?

Was it the dominant position comment or the spending that you took issue with?

3 league titles and 3 Scottish cups suggests they were the dominant side in Scotland during his five year reign. The winning margins in the league being 15, 18 and 17pts respectively, the two second places being on goal difference and by just the 1pt in his last year.

As for his spending, apart from the year he arrived he was no where near afforded the chance to splash the cash at Celtic, according to the figures on soccerbase hsi net spend in the five years north of the border was less than £4.5m a year, which really is a pittance.

_blank_ · 31-12-2008 3:02pm

What was he talking about?

eirebhoy · 31-12-2008 3:06pm

Des wrote: »

What was he talking about?

Talking about being Irish. How 50 years on from growing up with a picture Padraig Pearse on his living room wall he's being interviewed for the England job. He's still on.

ciaran76 · 31-12-2008 3:09pm

When he talks you just have to listen. He really comes across really well and you can tell he can get the most out of teams just by his passion.

Mr Alan · 31-12-2008 3:13pm

ciaran76 wrote: »

When he talks you just have to listen.

except when he talks ****e.

then you can just mutter "silence,you little hobbit" in your head. thats what i do :P

Bounty Hunter · 31-12-2008 3:14pm

As far as im concerned MON has not done a bad job at any club he has been at and the fans from every club he has managed at think he is a great manager. Villa have gone from finishing 16th to 11th to 6th under O'Neil and are now 3rd/4th and thus in cl contension.

Blessed by circumstances? yes Randy Lerner came in at the same time as O'Neil but that just shows that O'Neil is smart. He agreed with Doug Ellis that he would become Villa manager when it was made evident that Villa were no longer a poor proposition, Doug wasnt investing, Villa didnt have the money to keep even players like Erik Bakke who we had on loan we needed Lerner or we would be fighting relegation again.

despite that he didnt go nuts with Randys money and tbh it was only this summer that he spent big, and that was needed afterall as we had by far the smallest squad in the premiership. This big spend has so far gotten results too hasnt it, we are ahead of Arsenal atm! However he still gets criticise for his transfer dealings at times but which signings have been criticised here so far:

Salifou: its hardley fair to criticise this signing, it was always going to be a gamble, nobody had hear of the togolese zidane before but he cost pretty much nothing and made up the numbers which was needed.

Shorey: The former England international didnt actually cost that much and we didnt have a fit LB at the club so was def needed. Yes he has had a very poor start but MON has seen that and removed him from the first XI immediatley and considering he has only had half a season at Villa its a bit harsh to write him off.

people before this Summer also used to say that MON isnt the type to spend big or sign big names, um well i point to January 07 when Villa signed both John Carew and Ashley Young.

Also when you are talking about blessed by circumstances such as the youth coming through before he arrived, well that was just Gabby really and Agbonlahor didnt play every game till MON arrived and credits MON for a lot of his development which has now lead him to be a England international. The other youth product that had been in the Villa side when MON came in was Luke Young who MON gave a chance to but then shipped out to West Brom cos he simply wasnt good enough. Villa do have good youths but MON hasnt been blessed with the best ever crop or anything, yet right now he is slowly introducing our newest product Nathan "The Fonz" Delfouneso.

also people say to be a great manager he has to win things then conveniently ignore when he was with a club big enough to have a regular chance of doing so, odd that. Ok then how about the Conference Title or 2 FA Trophies and 2 Promotions he got Wycombe Wanderers or the 2 Carling Cup throphys he got Leicester. Are they not throphies/achievements? you know its hard to win the premiership/Cl when you manage a team not competing for it.

i could go on but i wont cos this is getting long but if any of the if united or Liverpool lost their manager and wanted a local/british/Prem experienced manager to take over id be getting very worried the would be chasing the current Villa manager

Draupnir · 31-12-2008 3:15pm

I'm confused about people saying that O'Neill is a limited tactician personally. I have always rated him as an outstanding tactician, for the simple fact that he has a very defined way he likes his teams to play football and sets them up that way. This is the reason that so many "lesser" players have shone out in his teams, roles are well defined and players get small amounts of creative freedom.

For this reason, I think he will always do better at the underdog clubs rather than at a United or a Liverpool where the relative goals of the club are above just being hard to beat, working hard when you don't have the ball and catching teams on the break. His sides wouldn't usually be free flowing footballing sides.

His achievements at Celtic are certainly relevant in any discussion of his CV when you consider that it was a serious step up in level both in terms of size of club and relative goals of the club. He also went their when Rangers weren't too badly off financially and basically dominated the game spending less per season on average than they did (as far as I am aware).

The fact that he reached the UEFA Cup final that year with that Celtic side is impressive in itself if you look at the list of teams they knocked out (over 2 legs aswell):

Suduva
Blackburn Rovers
Celta Vigo
Stuttgart
Liverpool
Boavista

So, really, anyone who says his Celtic tenure should be removed from his CV is wrong.

Draupnir · 31-12-2008 3:16pm

Mr Alan wrote: »

except when he talks ****e.

then you can just mutter "silence,you little hobbit" in your head. thats what i do :P

I agree, he can sometimes talk complete arse!

Martin O'Neill - Great manager or blessed by circumstances?

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