Irish Squad/Ireland XV for Six Nations?

anonymous_joe

I'd say the best captain in Ireland is Best. But he's not guarenteed to start in his position, and his province lacks the glamour of Munster or Leinster.

I'd say Mike Blair is a potential Lions captain, or, if he pulls some form together Ryan Jones. (If.)

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I'd say the best captain in Ireland is Best. But he's not guarenteed to start in his position, and his province lacks the glamour of Munster or Leinster.

I'd say Mike Blair is a potential Lions captain, or, if he pulls some form together Ryan Jones. (If.)

Why would you say Best would be a good captain?

Since he became captain they've gone from the top of the league to the bottom, and were knocked out of Europe in their first two games. I often think Best is just put forward as a potential captain simply because he's not from either Leinster or Munster. I don't see how he brings any great leadership to the team (or to Ulster), I don't think he's an inspirational leader like Woody, or BOD, who's play alone demanded respect. So what is it?

twinytwo

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Why would you say Best would be a good captain?

Since he became captain they've gone from the top of the league to the bottom, and were knocked out of Europe in their first two games. I often think Best is just put forward as a potential captain simply because he's not from either Leinster or Munster. I don't see how he brings any great leadership to the team (or to Ulster), I don't think he's an inspirational leader like Woody, or BOD, who's play alone demanded respect. So what is it?

excellent point:D

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Why would you say Best would be a good captain?

Since he became captain they've gone from the top of the league to the bottom, and were knocked out of Europe in their first two games. I often think Best is just put forward as a potential captain simply because he's not from either Leinster or Munster. I don't see how he brings any great leadership to the team (or to Ulster), I don't think he's an inspirational leader like Woody, or BOD, who's play alone demanded respect. So what is it?

Because he's always seemed to me a determined player, who tries to make the right calls in the right situation.

Ulster won the league what, two years ago? Before coaching disasters led to the team imploding, and collapsing, and a mass exodus of stars. He's led what is in essence a renaissance this season. He's led his team in conditions that O'Driscoll and O'Connell have rarely faced, which is being in a consistently weak team for an extended period of time, and seems to me to be an atmosphere in which they and a lot of our current players struggle.

thehighground

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Why would you say Best would be a good captain?

Since he became captain they've gone from the top of the league to the bottom, and were knocked out of Europe in their first two games. I often think Best is just put forward as a potential captain simply because he's not from either Leinster or Munster. I don't see how he brings any great leadership to the team (or to Ulster), I don't think he's an inspirational leader like Woody, or BOD, who's play alone demanded respect. So what is it?

You could also add that Rory has failed to inspire his team to win in either France or England although they seem to be able to do it at home in Ravenhill. Home support has a lot to do with it. And as far as I can remember, Best didn't start the Thomond game when they beat Munster, he only came on as a sub, so he doesn't have that on his cv. (The Ulster revival looks more like inspiration coming from Matt William's direction).

So, I'd love to know why Best should be preferred to POC? (keeping in mind that we are looking at a forward as captain, rather than a back)

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Because he's always seemed to me a determined player, who tries to make the right calls in the right situation.

Ulster won the league what, two years ago? Before coaching disasters led to the team imploding, and collapsing, and a mass exodus of stars. He's led what is in essence a renaissance this season. He's led his team in conditions that O'Driscoll and O'Connell have rarely faced, which is being in a consistently weak team for an extended period of time, and seems to me to be an atmosphere in which they and a lot of our current players struggle.

Really, right calls you say, like when?

Ulster are still out of Europe and still in the lower reaches of the ML. The week after winning in Thomond (where he didn't start) they lost to a poor Edinburgh side away. In fact, Ulster rarely win away, the Thomond game being one exception in a run of 10 or 12 away losses.

David Wallace is always determined, as is Shane Horgan, as is anyone who makes it to Int level, being a determined player is like saying you like him because he looks good in green, it shouldn't come into it.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Because he's always seemed to me a determined player, who tries to make the right calls in the right situation.

No doubt about that.

Ulster won the league what, two years ago? Before coaching disasters led to the team imploding, and collapsing, and a mass exodus of stars. He's led what is in essence a renaissance this season. He's led his team in conditions that O'Driscoll and O'Connell have rarely faced, which is being in a consistently weak team for an extended period of time, and seems to me to be an atmosphere in which they and a lot of our current players struggle.

Ulster's troubles started after the Autumn internationals 2 years ago when a fair few Ulster players were capped for Ireland, large egos emerged in the dressing room when they returned back to Ravenhill, which resulted in dissent and the splitting of the dressing room.

A good captain would have sorted that out, particularly if he was one of the returning internationals who had done well and so should have commanded the respect of all.

But, maybe he learned something I suppose. But it says a lot for POC (and all Munster players) that there is no division whatsoever in their squad despite the competition for places and presumably fairly large egos in it.

twinytwo

Goose81 wrote: »

What a stupid question.
Fellow fans

Stringer cost us a try with a **** pass,I would have eaten the head off a player aswell.Dont turn this into another Bod Bashing,also Bod also has "passion,Commitment,experience,respect" so what new does that bring to the table?
Troll


Poc has never produced the goods the same for Ireland as he has for Munster.
He looses the head to easily imo.
He was a sham on the last Lions tour,yet some are calling for him to be captain on the next.
Can McGeechan take that risk?
Hes undropable if he makes him captain.
Same with Kidney.

Hes too important a player to risk damaging his performances by giving him the captancy.Its already ruined one player.
As I said hes one of my favourite player but I would be weary of him being captain of either.My choice is Rory best and I have made that clear.

you do remember that the whole lions tour in 05 was a sham. Not just POC.
And how can you make a player who dosent consistently start for the national team captain????

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Really, right calls you say, like when?

Ulster are still out of Europe and still in the lower reaches of the ML. The week after winning in Thomond (where he didn't start) they lost to a poor Edinburgh side away. In fact, Ulster rarely win away, the Thomond game being one exception in a run of 10 or 12 away losses.

David Wallace is always determined, as is Shane Horgan, as is anyone who makes it to Int level, being a determined player is like saying you like him because he looks good in green, it shouldn't come into it.

In fairness I think the fact that Ulster are slowly improving is indisputable. They've come along way this season, even if they are out of Europe and still struggling in the ML.

thehighground wrote: »

No doubt about that.



Ulster's troubles started after the Autumn internationals 2 years ago when a fair few Ulster players were capped for Ireland, large egos emerged in the dressing room when they returned back to Ravenhill, which resulted in dissent and the splitting of the dressing room.

A good captain would have sorted that out, particularly if he was one of the returning internationals who had done well and so should have commanded the respect of all.

But, maybe he learned something I suppose. But it says a lot for POC (and all Munster players) that there is no division whatsoever in their squad despite the competition for places and presumably fairly large egos in it.

I think Ulster seriously fell apart, and captains, players and coaches are all equally culpable.

As regards Munster, I don't think any of us knows what happens in a squad. At the end of the day, in any group of people, not all will get along. Munster's professionalism is very impressive. They're the most professional and effective Irish team, and I think that's the real difference between them and Leinster. Not talent, but efficient use of talent.

bleg

best has no experience in big games. ulster haven't qualified for the knock out stages of the biggest european club rugby tournament in how many years? he lacks big game experience and would be a poor choice.

o connell or o driscoll are you're only men.

sock puppet

bleg wrote: »

best has no experience in big games. ulster haven't qualified for the knock out stages of the biggest european club rugby tournament in how many years? he lacks big game experience and would be a poor choice.

o connell or o driscoll are you're only men.

While I agree with you with your choice of captains I don't think knockout HEC rugby is a prerequisite for being considered. He's started for Ireland and that's all the experience he needs. It's then up to the coach if he thinks he's up to it. Some of England and France's best players over the past few years have never played in the knockouts of the HEC. Likewise for Blair and yet he's still seen as a potential Lions captain.

Podge_irl

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It's only odd if you think he has real pace.

I don't think he has blistering pace, but he's no slouch either. But my point is more that he very rarely seems to back himself and run at full tilt on the pitch so its hard to judge. Great finisher, as seen from his try haul this season, but he just seems hesitant to put his head down and leggit with the ball!

finlma

Goose81 wrote: »

Ahead of who?
Would Munster Fans here think that Dowling would start in a HC final?
Cause I dont think he would ,
Earls,Howlett on the wings and Warwick at FB.

What are you on about? He already started 2 HC finals and played a big part in winning both. You do watch the HC don't you? He's a guaranteed starter for Munster - much more so than Earls.

As for all this - we won't have any one to score tries stuff that people are throwing in. You also have to defend in rugby and we spend a large amount of time doing this in the 6 Nations. Dowling is the best defending wing we have without question and he offers a lot in attack and work rate around the pitch.

bleg

i'm a fan of dowling's but i doubt he'll get anywhere near a matchday 22 this season. great for him to get the experience training with irish greats who might teach him a few things to improve his game even more.

Diom

I'm a Connacht fan and so I'm disappointed in the total absence of any Connacht players in the frame.

Muldoon deserves a place ahead of the likes of MOD and Ronan. Murphy is playing excellently for us. Cronin at least is getting a game with the A team, but if he is not our future hooker then I don't know who is.

Keatley, more than anyone else I am disappointed for. He is the total package for a 10. He can break lines, kick penalties, hit the corners, move the back line, finish tries! He is awesome, and he plays nearly every single week at ML/ECC level. Sexton does not deserve a place on that team, and it is sickening to have him ahead of Keatley.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I think Ulster seriously fell apart, and captains, players and coaches are all equally culpable.

As regards Munster, I don't think any of us knows what happens in a squad. At the end of the day, in any group of people, not all will get along. Munster's professionalism is very impressive. They're the most professional and effective Irish team, and I think that's the real difference between them and Leinster. Not talent, but efficient use of talent.

I think you can get a fair idea from the various books (recent ones Axel & ROG) on what the Munster dressing room is like (brutally honest). Niall Ronan's comments on the difference between Leinster & Munster (one of the differences he mentioned is that every player is treated exactly the same in Munster, whereas in Leinster if some of the senior players didn't fancy doing it, were late for training or something, they got away with it).

thehighground

Diom wrote: »

I'm a Connacht fan and so I'm disappointed in the total absence of any Connacht players in the frame.

Muldoon deserves a place ahead of the likes of MOD and Ronan. Murphy is playing excellently for us. Cronin at least is getting a game with the A team, but if he is not our future hooker then I don't know who is.

Keatley, more than anyone else I am disappointed for. He is the total package for a 10. He can break lines, kick penalties, hit the corners, move the back line, finish tries! He is awesome, and he plays nearly every single week at ML/ECC level. Sexton does not deserve a place on that team, and it is sickening to have him ahead of Keatley.

Is Keatly not away to participate in the 7s World Cup in Dubai in which he helped Ireland to qualify for?

As for Muldoon - why does he deserve his place ahead of Ronan & O'Driscoll (both put in magnificent displays against the ABs)? None of the three are going to make the backrow anyway because of who is ahead of them.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Is Keatly not away to participate in the 7s World Cup in Dubai in which he helped Ireland to qualify for?

Don't think the squad has been announced yet, but it's a safe enough bet.

Crash

Our future hooker will be Best to be truly honest -the lad is 24, 25 possibly at this point. I would honestly believe our hopes are resting on him at hooker for the next few years by far.

As for Murphy, to be honest i'd have said he'd be in for a shot on the A's had it not been for Boss' performance in the last few matches - he's back in form. he's playing well, and on top of that he's played with the lads before - thats what pips him to 4th choice over murphy.

Btw, thehighground (I know we always disagree, we have to stop this at some point ) I still think MOD is a poor choice. I honestly think, and tbh i championed the guy for years, i havent seen as good a change in a player as MOD after france, and MOD in the allbacks game, that we will NEVER see a performance like that lad put in for himself as a captain in that game ever again from him. So at this point, with 7 players in for second row, I honestly think if he has no chance of getting into the squad, then why the hell not give one of the many second rows a decent shot at it?

Amazotheamazing

Going Waterforward wrote: »

Our future hooker will be Best to be truly honest -the lad is 24, 25 possibly at this point. I would honestly believe our hopes are resting on him at hooker for the next few years by far.

Best is 26.

I just think he's an ordinary player.

RugbyFanatic

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Best is 26.

I just think he's an ordinary player.

Best has maybe 7 years ahead of him if he can stave off injuries he can certainly be considered young. The fact that he is only 26 and captaining his side speaks volumes. Personally I think both Flannery and Best are ordinary but Best is better in the scrum, has better leadership and is younger.

RuggieBear

they're both ordinary compared to K woods maybe. (and even he had a lot of detractors from public and colleague alike)

I think they are solid enough international class players (when in form).

RugbyFanatic

RuggieBear wrote: »

they're both ordinary compared to K woods maybe. (and even he had a lot of detractors from public and colleague alike)

I think they are solid enough international class players (when in form).

Well NH wise they're probably some of the best of an ordinary bunch.

But yes maybe were just used to old Woody and expecting the same!

Jam-Fly

1 Horan...Simply, best in his position imo
2 Flannery...Slightly better than Best I think (no pun intended). Also, since it's a 7 man Munster pack, having a hooker with playing expereince with the rest of the pack is important
3 Hayes...Still slugging away, still the best No. 3 in the world (well, maybe...:D)

4 O'Callaghan...Yup, no real doubt here
5 O'Connell...Ditto

6 Quinlan...Great flanker, adds experience
7 Wallace...Plays best at No. 7 imo, the only back-row who is guarenteed a place in the team.
8 Ferris...This was a tough enough decision. I think his power and size just seperate him from Leamy or Jennings, but only just. Could easily have picked Heaslip

9 Stringer...Most would pick Reddan or O'Leary, but I think we can sacrifice a little in defensive physicality in order to get quicker passes for ROG
10 O'Gara...Obviously

11 Horgan...Adds physicality to the midfield
12 Fitzgerald...Works better with BOD than other centres
13 BOD...I (Munster fan) honestly think he adds the spark to the Irish side. Not as good as he once was, but still one of the best centers in Europe.
14 Bowe...Deserves a chance at a consistent run in the team. Best Irish winger this season.

15 Murphy...Going with experience here

Podge_irl

There is a reason Stringer isn't first choice for Munster anymore. Ferris has been the stand-out at 6 and then the other two positions depend on where you put Wallace, but I really don't see how you think Quinlan is up for international rugby. Likewise Horgan has been poor for Leinster and in no way deserves a start imo. I think Wallace worked better in the centre with BOD tbh, which is a shame cause I thought the Fitz/BOD axis might have been a lot better. Kearney has plenty of experience and is frankly, just plain better then Murphy.

Jam-Fly

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is a reason Stringer isn't first choice for Munster anymore...
Likewise Horgan has been poor for Leinster and in no way deserves a start imo

These decisions were interlinked. Obviously O'Leary would be most be people's first choice, but I do like the speed of Stringer's pass - it gives O'Gara, Fitz and BOD more options. If I chose Stringer, I felt I had to make up for the lack of strength, hence picking Horgan. It's by no means a standard selection, but this is the point of view I was looking at it from.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ferris has been the stand-out at 6 and then the other two positions depend on where you put Wallace, but I really don't see how you think Quinlan is up for international rugby.

Yeah, I know what your saying, I'm still a big fan of Quinlan. But yeah, I would be happy with a back-row like this
6. Ferris
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think Wallace worked better in the centre with BOD tbh, which is a shame cause I thought the Fitz/BOD axis might have been a lot better.

Nah, still sticking with Fitzgerald-BOD partnership

Podge_irl wrote: »

Kearney has plenty of experience and is frankly, just plain better then Murphy.

56 caps versus 8

Sparky14

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is a reason Stringer isn't first choice for Munster anymore.

What is the reason, obv O'Leary has come on a lot in the last two seasons, but has Stringer gone that far backwards that he's not at least pushing for a starting place?

I wouldn't be opposed to Stringer returning for Ireland if he was his old self, just hoping his pass can get the backline moving again.

Crash

Team i'd like to see:

1. Horan
2. Best
3. Hayes
4. DOC
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip

9. O'Leary
10. ROG
11. Fitzgerald
12. Wallace
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Flannery
17. Healy/Court
18. Caldwell/Ryan
19. Jennings/Leamy
20. Reddan
21. ?
22. Dempsey/Murph

I guess close enough to what i'd like to see my first choice team be. Not too pushed about the backrow, or rather who gets the 3rd spot, as long as Wally and Ferris are in there.

twinytwo

Jam-Fly wrote: »

1 Horan...Simply, best in his position imo
2 Flannery...Slightly better than Best I think (no pun intended). Also, since it's a 7 man Munster pack, having a hooker with playing expereince with the rest of the pack is important
3 Hayes...Still slugging away, still the best No. 3 in the world (well, maybe...:D)

4 O'Callaghan...Yup, no real doubt here
5 O'Connell...Ditto

6 Quinlan...Great flanker, adds experience
7 Wallace...Plays best at No. 7 imo, the only back-row who is guarenteed a place in the team.
8 Ferris...This was a tough enough decision. I think his power and size just seperate him from Leamy or Jennings, but only just. Could easily have picked Heaslip

9 Stringer...Most would pick Reddan or O'Leary, but I think we can sacrifice a little in defensive physicality in order to get quicker passes for ROG
10 O'Gara...Obviously

11 Horgan...Adds physicality to the midfield
12 Fitzgerald...Works better with BOD than other centres
13 BOD...I (Munster fan) honestly think he adds the spark to the Irish side. Not as good as he once was, but still one of the best centers in Europe.
14 Bowe...Deserves a chance at a consistent run in the team. Best Irish winger this season.

15 Murphy...Going with experience here

Only problem with this is

A) Wallace is the prob the best 8 in europe no one does it better than him. His sheer commitment plus ability to tank over from positions most players couldnt makes him unstopable he will prob be played at 7 which is a shame

Poor old Geordan Murphy i do like him but he sometimes is away with the faries and i wouldnt want him at FB for the france game...Super Rob at least has a peg on him that could get us out of any trouble in our 22

remus808

twinytwo wrote: »

A) Wallace is the prob the best 8 in europe no one does it better than him.

Don't be ridiculous.. how many games has he played there?! Yes he has looked good there this season, but he is an openside in truth, regardless of whether he should have made his career at 8. To laud him as the "best 8 in europe" after just a few games is silly. (Although I do see where your coming from)