Irish Squad/Ireland XV for Six Nations?

Webbs

premierstone wrote: »

But you need to be honest aswell, there is a reason he is at Connaught - he was third choice at leinster and at the start of the season if he had been at Munster he would in all likelyhood have been fourth choice, now there is no denying he has improved immensely in the interim and great credit to him and Connaught for this but personally I think it would be a monumental mistake to throw him into International rugby right now and quite frankly would be unfair on the lad himself, he's time will come and he's on the right track but ask yourself this - Irish rugby fans will be confident almost expecting us to either win the championship or come very close to doing so, now our three rivals for this are Wales, France and England, are you honestly telling me that any of the coaches of those three would play a player of Keatleys standing in the game in a 6N match??

In the case of Wales and France, if they were in Irelands position then yes I do think they would put someone like Keatley (and Humphreys) into their set up and give them some game time.
Wales (and France) would I think have given the likes of those 2, Earls, J Murphy etc much more involvement in the international setup than has been the case for Ireland
Its time for Ireland to rebuild and not play it safe, when do you propose you give players meaningful gametime (and tours to the US or Canada etc dont count as meaningful).
Do you honestly think that Irish rugby fans would be expecting to win the championship? Surely you would be happier if new exciting players got game time and proved their worth, ready for better things to come in the next few years

Diom

Anything other than this wrote: »

To a lesser extent Frank Murphy? In my eyes, Murphy is the most consistent scrummie for an Irish province this season, has IMO made the biggest difference possible in Connacht, has a quick pass from the base of the ruck, and the ability to snipe and hassle extremely well.

IMO i'd love to see him at least get some time in an extended squad come 6 nations time.

I agree, I simply meant that Cronin and Keatley were making stronger cases IMO.
Murphy has a quick pass alright, but can be indecisive at times spending too long looking around for options. He needs to speed up in reading the game and deciding on his next move.

Crash

True about the indecision - however of the three Irish scrumhalves who've previously been capped (from the provinces), Boss has the same habit, O'Leary drifts between being quite decisive and spending his entire game staring at the ball not sure what he wants to do, and stringer just fires it out decisively, sometimes to an empty space. We're not exactly blessed with decisive scrumhalves at the moment - each has significant flaws.

Stev_o

Sure we arent going to win anything this year anyway might as well follow the trend and give players experience . Wales will probably win the 6N as they are so far beyond the rest of the home nations. Scotland have the worst possible coach in Europe at the helm and until he gets replaced the most they will achieve is the odd victory no matter how good the individuals on paper they have. England keep picking players from Wasps great strategy they got there :rolleyes: France are just hilarious its like a football manager picking the team, everytime i see their starting XV i laugh. Italy lack a midfield to do anything with the ball their monster pack will win and they cant continue to let Parisse and Marcato to win games by themselves

Serenity Now!

Webbs wrote: »

Do you honestly think that Irish rugby fans would be expecting to win the championship? Surely you would be happier if new exciting players got game time and proved their worth, ready for better things to come in the next few years

Do you think that the coaches actually give a stuff what the "fan" expects?
They are there to win games ffs. This is their first 6N and I'd say they feel they can give it a good whirl by picking the best side possible.

Moncti48

Webbs wrote: »

Do you honestly think that Irish rugby fans would be expecting to win the championship? Surely you would be happier if new exciting players got game time and proved their worth, ready for better things to come in the next few years

Of course wed all love to see the new guys go out there and have a go. See if there up to the task, but Kidneys 1st 6n not a chance will he change things to extradinary. Ferris and maybe,and i mean if there is nobody else earls might get a chance. otherwise nobody will be making their 1st cap for ireland . i hope im proved wrong but its unlikely:(

zAbbo

So what should we do with our under performing national team, I thought for a while it was the poor choice of combinations and players being picked on reputation and not form. But I've no real idea on how to get the maximum from our players.

On paper we have one of the best teams in the world, in reality we're underperformed for at least 2 years if not more, so the perienial 'this is our year' time has come again and while other countries have been brave and blooded new starters with an eye on the next world cup - we've been decisively stagnant. It may be great to have a XV with over 800 caps, but what we need right now is a brave new direction.

So here's my take on where things should go, with one eye on the Lions tour.

Full Back - 15. Rob Kearney
Without a shadow of a doubt, there are only two options here, and if either are selected in an XV it needs to be at 15. Much has been said about Geordon Murphy - who is not just one of our most gifted footballers but is also one of our most successful. His skillset is very similar to Rob Kearney's - so much so the frailties in his game which have seen him lambasted before are also shared with Kearney (erratic & mistake prone). Whoever makes the 15 shirt, the other must not be shifted to the wing. I'd alternate between the two, with Murphy in arguably the form of his life.
Both could make the Lions squad if picked solely at 15.


Wings - 14. Tommy Bowe & 11. Luke Fitzgerald
We actually have very few wingers, and for me - Bowe has been the stand out Irish winger in the last 18months, while Luke Fitzgerald has the skill to play anywhere in the back 3, should be moved to left wing as his speed and step have seen him score tries for Leinster here and we have enough multi positional players in the backline without forcing Luke at outside centre, even if he ends up playing there in the future - right now we need someone who can be a threat from left wing.
It would take a masterful 6nations and finish to the season for either to make the Lions squad, especially at wing.

Centre - Inside. Brian O'Driscoll & Outside. Keith Earls
My decision to shift Fitzgerald to 11, and Kearney to 15 are to allow our best possible centre pairing. Simply O'Driscoll is both our best inside and outside centre, and the subtlety of backline play means he can take up either position depending on the situation. With that in mind, we also have Paddy Wallace in reserve - playing the best rugby of his career at 12 for Ulster. It's a little too soon for D'arcy but we are beginning to have options at inside centre again.

So, that means putting Ireland's brightest spark Earl's at outside centre, a position he excelled with the A team, he needs to be fast tracked into this position as soon as possible for both Munster and Ireland.
If Earl's excels, he'll make the Lions, O'Driscoll definitely will.

Half Backs - 10. Ronan O'Gara & 9. Tomas O'Leary
ROG, no-one else is near yet, despite his short comings for Ireland - he's still the best. I'd rate Keatley, Humphries & Sexton as the others in line, one if not two of those need to see some gametime soon.
Lions chances? O'Gara will make the squad, but will need something special to make his way into the 22.

At scrum half, take your pick - O'Leary, Reddan, Stringer, Murphy & Boss - all equally good and bad, and nowhere near the quality required to fully realise the potential of the backline. On form I'd go with O'Leary - but have been very impressed with Murphy at Connacht, but more than likely Reddan will be in reserve.
None of our SH's will get a look in for the Lions though.

Back Row - 6. Stephen Ferris, 7. Sean O'Brien & 8. Wallace
The back row, a bit like our backline is made up of players capable of playing right across it. And this I think will be the most controversial choice. At blindside we have so many options, but I think Ferris is showing the form his potential belies, with that I think David Wallace is the standout forward available - a testament to his skills is that he could probably play anywhere, but has show a real strength at No.8 - taking over from a relatively quiet spell from Jamie Heaslip.

At openside we've got both Shane Jennings & Sean O'Brien capable and eager for caps, and David Pollock & Niall Ronan also in the running. I'm going to go with Sean O'Brien, but would not be against the idea of putting Wallace at 7, and Heaslip at 8, or keep Wallace at 8, and testing Ronan, Jennings, and Pollock as possibilities at 7.
Ferris could make it if played at 6, while Wallace just has to go, open side is a position available I think if one of our youngsters puts a hand up.

Locks - 4. Cullen & 5. O'Connell
With O'Callaghan and O'Connell we know what we're going to get, and it's about time a message is sent that it hasn't been good enough. O'Connell is obviously a good player, perhaps left wanting at both the RWC and Lions. That aside, he has to take some responsibility for our poor lineout recently. With Leo Cullen - we have someone similar in skillset and leadership to O'Connell, although only back from injury - he's the reason why Leinster won the ML last year. Donnacha Ryan also an option here.

O'Connell should go on the Lions tour, a chance to redeem himself, while Cullen probably won't make it unless he has a standout 6n - but realistically he probably won't even make the 6nations bench

Front Row - 1. Horan, 2. Jackman & 3. Ross
Ok, first off Horan and Hayes have been stalwarts of our scrum in recent years, and alternatives and options need to be tested. Healy needs to see gametime soon, I'd alternate a prop combo of Healy/Hayes and Horan/Ross. Ross has been great for Quins this year, and is a more capable replacement for Hayes than Buckley.

Hooker could see a choice of either Flannery, Best and Jackman. Very little between all 3, in the case of Jackman - he's been the best Leinster forward and possibly player in the last 2 years. His throwing can go astray - but there are more components in the lineout that the thrower. We potentially have the depth to alternate between two front rows, with Jackman being extremely dynamic in the loose and a superior ball carrier than the other 2.
Lions chances? Who knows - good performances from any of our front rowers could them selected

---

So that's what I think, how much of it that will actually happen is doubtful, maybe some of it is wishful thinking. I fear it will be another year playing the same team as the last 5 years, but maybe Kidney can be brave and shake up this squad, after all - It is our year!, I can feel it

Lasher1980

Initial post had me wondering but i realise that Munster bias is larger than any other, but we are all hoping for the same results so will allow it!

15. Murphy
14. Bowe
13. Drico
12. Wallace
11. Kearney
10. O Gara
9. O Leary
8. Heaslip
7. Wallace
6. Ferris
5. O Connell
4. Casey
3. Hayes
2. Best
1. Horan.

Cant justity picking Ross/Humphries/Fitzgerald as this is a big season and we need to start winning again, international rugby is a huge step up from Magners and even Heineken Cup. Bob Casey has been one of the best locks for a while now and i think he will add to the side. In some ways i hope this team is wrong, eg, Darcy looked lively over xmas despite the arm and would love to see him in at 12 beside BOD, but at least we have some sort of depth now at No 9, 10 and 15.

Goose81

zAbbo wrote: »

On paper we have one of the best teams in the world

Do we though?

Most othr rugby nations would say we are the most deluded fans on the planet tbh.


The only thing I dont agree with is Earls at 13,he hasnt played their with bod on against canada I think?

And wallace has been exceptional.I also dont think Bod can play 12.He still has pace,why would you put a world class player in his wrong position to include a kid with alot of promise that has done nothing of note?

zAbbo

Goose81 wrote: »

Do we though?
I also dont think Bod can play 12.

We do have one of the best XV's in world rugby, how could anyone say that a squad full of the reigning HCup and ML champions aren't?, with players like POC, Wallace, ROG and BOD!

BOD has played at inside centre - he can & has!, don't worry about him wearing 13, which is why he can switch between the two. I've often seen him take up the inside role in both attack and defence for Leinster & Ireland.

Putting Earl's outside him, allows us genuine spark in the centres. Earl's is the most naturally talented player since O'Driscoll broke onto the scene. Any other country would be fast tracking him as the natural successor to BOD.

Noopti

I'd like to see a team like this take the field against Italy or Scotland. They will be tough games, but feck it. We need to move forward in some positions. I think our young up and coming backs should definitely be given more game time. I would take a more cautious approach with the forwards as they need to provide a platform and throwing inexperience guys in there too soon could be a disaster in my opinion.

1. Horan
2. Flannery
3. Hayes
4. POC (Captain)
5. Cullen
6. Ferris
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip
9. O'Leary
10. O'Gara
11. Earls
12. Cave
13. Fitzgerald
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. O'Driscoll
17. Healy
18. Ryan
19. O'Brien
20. Reddan
21. Humphries
22. Best

Zzippy

1. Horan
2. Flannery
3. Hayes
4. POC
5. DOC
6. Ferris
7. Wallace
8. Leamy
9. TOL
10. ROG
11. Bowe
12. Wallace
13. BOD
14. Earls
15. Kearney

I think this is the team Kidney will pick. If D'Arcy is fit and back to form he will start ahead of Wallace. But whoever he picks, its time to start giving younger players meaningful gametime. Humphries should get 20 mins in a few games, maybe start him against Italy/Scotland. Same for Murphy at SH. Heaslip and Ronan also deserve a few runs. No bringing on players for the last 5 mins when a game is won or lost already, meaningless caps that do nothing to develop a player.

Goose81

zAbbo wrote: »

We do have one of the best XV's in world rugby, how could anyone say that a squad full of the reigning HCup and ML champions aren't?, with players like POC, Wallace, ROG and BOD!

BOD has played at inside centre - he can & has!, don't worry about him wearing 13, which is why he can switch between the two. I've often seen him take up the inside role in both attack and defence for Leinster & Ireland.

Putting Earl's outside him, allows us genuine spark in the centres. Earl's is the most naturally talented player since O'Driscoll broke onto the scene. Any other country would be fast tracking him as the natural successor to BOD.

Yeah,so have I and its one of the main reasons people are criticising him eg kicking etc.

They are two completely different positions.Do you think Bod could play 10? Cause I dont really.

Because a good 1st 5 8th should be able to play 10 and he is a very good player.

dub_skav

Not having a go at anybody here. But I think picking the majority of the pack / backline from one team is a really bad idea. It means that there are no different ideas in trainng, or if things start to go wrong in matches that there is only 1 guy to turn to (that team's leader).

Therefore, I do not think it should be an all munster front 5. Somebody like Cullen or Best needs to be in there to have a different view / opinion and to provide a leader if POC is having a bad day.
Similarly a backline containing Fitz, Bod, Kearney and D'arcy/Horgan would be a bad idea. If things go wrong it is good to have somebody used to a different style of play like Paddy Wallace in there.

This is why the unsaid rule of only picking from the 3 provinces has us in the position we're in. If over the years we had more guys playing in the GP or Top 14 considered for selection then the breadth of experience and ideas available to the international side would be invaluable

barnesd

zAbbo wrote: »

We do have one of the best XV's in world rugby, how could anyone say that a squad full of the reigning HCup and ML champions aren't?, with players like POC, Wallace, ROG and BOD!

No we don't. Of those players POC and BOD would be the only one who have a chance at getting into one of the 3N sides currently, and even then it would be just that, a chance. None of the 3N would take Wallace at 7 or 8, ROG currently would be lucky to make the 22s. We're about as good as our world ranking.

sock puppet

zAbbo wrote: »

We do have one of the best XV's in world rugby, how could anyone say that a squad full of the reigning HCup and ML champions aren't?, with players like POC, Wallace, ROG and BOD!

But should we really be so optimistic? Munster won the Heineken cup with almost a full international pack. Leinster also have a large number of internationals. I don't mean to belittle their achievements but when it comes to international level many of these players simply don't look as good as they do at club level. I don't think there's any lack of passion or whatever in the Irish team. Confidence maybe but I don't doubt that each player in the team gives their all.

Also winning the Heineken cup means you're the best club in Europe. However as we've seen from the beatings handed out in the summer tours and AIs, there are far better teams down under like the Crusaders, Waratahs and Sharks. I'm not saying we're crap or anything. We have a good chance in the 6 nations (like every year) but I don't think we should be expecting a win.

twinytwo

Moncti48 wrote: »

15. Kearney - Best in this position
14. Fitzgearld - Partnership with BOD didnt work so can be used better on the wing
13. BOD - simply because he wont be dropped no matter what people say
12. Earls - has done enough this season to merit a start
11. Trimble/Bowe - both playing well

10. Humphreys/keatly - Both made fools of ROG. time for o gara to go, just like he disloged David humphreys
9. TOL - better for the team than reddan

1. Horan - who else
2. Dont Care either or
3. Hayes - any man who can lift POC on his own deserves to start

4. POC - simple
5. DOC - playing ****, if he ****s up in 1st game change to Cullen/ryan

6. Ferris - best 6 Ireland has right now
7. Wallace - Jennings hasnt played well this season, and Wallace is Ireland best carrier
8. Leamy - still 26 and has more to offer than heaslip. strenght and dynamism that heaslip doesnt have. heaslip hasnt played well for Ireland at 8


16. Flannery/Best whichever
17. Buckley
18. Heaslip
19. P. Wallace/Darcy
20. Reddan
21. ROG
22. Trimble/Bowe

What are u on about???.. as for dislodging humphreys you do realise that that imo was the biggest mistake irish rugby has made top date. He was an outstanding fly half if young humphs is half as good we should count our lucky stars that we finally have a new fly half

Serenity Now!

twinytwo wrote: »

What are u on about???.. as for dislodging humphreys you do realise that that imo was the biggest mistake irish rugby has made top date

Everyone is to realise your opinion now??? lol

Serenity Now!

Goose81 wrote: »

Yeah,so have I and its one of the main reasons people are criticising him eg kicking etc.

They are two completely different positions.Do you think Bod could play 10? Cause I dont really.

Because a good 1st 5 8th should be able to play 10 and he is a very good player.

Remember Tim Horan. Just because you're a top first-five, this doesn't mean you're a top pivot.

Goose81

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Remember Tim Horan. Just because you're a top first-five, this doesn't mean you're a top pivot.

I agree and it backs up my point ,just because Bod is a good 13 does not mean he will be a good 12.

Serenity Now!

Goose81 wrote: »

I agree and it backs up my point ,just because Bod is a good 13 does not mean he will be a good 12.

O'Driscoll HAS been playing inside centre.
If a pivot doesn't need to be cotton-wooled like Wilkinson was during the RWC2003, the inside centre does not need to play like a backup second nr10.

Goose81

Serenity Now! wrote: »

O'Driscoll HAS been playing inside centre.
If a pivot doesn't need to be cotton-wooled like Wilkinson was during the RWC2003, the inside centre does not need to play like a backup second nr10.

No he HAS NOT.
He has been playing inside for ireland in defence and outside in attack.

For leinster he plays 95% at outside.

Serenity Now!

Goose81 wrote: »

No he HAS NOT.
He has been playing inside for ireland in defence and outside in attack.

For leinster he plays 95% at outside.

Wrong.
He has been inside centre in attack plenty of times with Fitzgerald outside. They regularly play left and right centre in fact when ball is going through phases.

I wasn't referring to Leinster obviously especially since this is a thread about an 'Ireland XV'.

Goose81

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Wrong.
He has been inside centre in attack plenty of times with Fitzgerald outside. They regularly play left and right centre in fact when ball is going through phases.

I wasn't referring to Leinster obviously especially since this is a thread about an 'Ireland XV'.

Well obviously if the ball is recovered quickly and they dont have time they will not realign,But if its a set move Bod will be 13.

thehighground

dub_skav wrote: »

Not having a go at anybody here. But I think picking the majority of the pack / backline from one team is a really bad idea. It means that there are no different ideas in trainng, or if things start to go wrong in matches that there is only 1 guy to turn to (that team's leader).

Therefore, I do not think it should be an all munster front 5. Somebody like Cullen or Best needs to be in there to have a different view / opinion and to provide a leader if POC is having a bad day.
Similarly a backline containing Fitz, Bod, Kearney and D'arcy/Horgan would be a bad idea. If things go wrong it is good to have somebody used to a different style of play like Paddy Wallace in there.

This is why the unsaid rule of only picking from the 3 provinces has us in the position we're in. If over the years we had more guys playing in the GP or Top 14 considered for selection then the breadth of experience and ideas available to the international side would be invaluable

It seems to work for the Ospreys & Wales very well – well actually it works for Wales better than for the Ospreys!

The English/French rugby teams haven't been exactly pulling up trees since the last World Cup now, have they?


Edit: Does it actually matter what number BOD has on his back?

[Jackass]

I think this team should have a combination of 3 things.
1/ Form players are picked.
2/ Big names can fall
3/ Youth is given its chance.

On that basis:

15. Kearney
14. Bowe
13. Earls & Cave
12. O'Driscoll
11. Fitzgerald
10. O'Gara*
9. O'Leary

1. Healy
2. Jackman
3. Hayes
4. O'Connell
5. O'Callaghan
6. Wallace
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip

*O'Gara starting 10, but Keatley to be given a full 80 minutes v Scotland or Italy and to get 20 minutes v Wales, England or France - Players like Cipriani were thrown in at the deep end, he has the talent, give him games.

Backrow is very interchangeable, with Ferris given time at 6, Wallace given time at 8, O'Brien given time at 6, Ronan given time at 7. Healy to take over from Horan with no bedding in time. Already a better player this season, much stronger, much more mobile and in his first couple of seasons he's already on a par with scrummaging and is improving dramatically all the time. He's ready.

Jackman is, and has been, the form hooker in this country for some time.

O'Connell & O'Callaghan not playing well but no one is really challanging. Cullen without being injured could have given it a shot. Caldwell to get 40 minutes at some point though. Toner to be in the squad but not match 22 or game time yet.

Cave to get at least 2 starts at 13. Most exciting young back in Irish rugby at present.

Serenity Now!

[Jackass] wrote: »

*O'Gara starting 10, but Keatley to be given a full 80 minutes v Scotland or Italy

LOL! He's never even played an 'A' game for Ireland or higher than Celtic Rugby level and you want to chuck him in for two away 6N games?? :rolleyes:

Diom

Serenity Now! wrote: »

LOL! He's never even played an 'A' game for Ireland or higher than Celtic Rugby level and you want to chuck him in for two away 6N games?? :rolleyes:

He's played against the best team in England. And yes he has been capped at 'A' level. He also played international 7s. Personally I don't want to see him play in many 6N games, mostly for the selfish reason that Connacht need him. I do think that he will be able for full on internationals soon though.
I think it would be more appropriate for him to start in more A games first, and finish out the season in good form.

Noopti

Diom wrote: »

He's played against the best team in England.

Playing against the best team in England is no comparison to playing a test match in the 6N, no matter the opposition.

RugbyFanatic

Serenity Now! wrote: »

LOL! He's never even played an 'A' game for Ireland or higher than Celtic Rugby level and you want to chuck him in for two away 6N games?? :rolleyes:

Did he not play in the Churchill Cup for Ireland A in America?