What was God doing......

ElCrapula

If we take that the world and humanity exist for a God given purpose and reason,what do you suppose God was doing before he created the world,and what will he do when the world is no more?

Helix

there are more planets than earth to be fair

PDN

God existed for all Eternity before the Creation of the universe. He didn't need to be doing anything since God is self-sufficient and does not need any outside interest or activity at all.

I think Don Carson puts it rather well:

Paul (in Acts 17) actually has the cheek to say that God does not need you. It is not as if God needs you. You see, that is so different than paganism. In paganism the gods and human beings have a kind of reciprocal relationship. The gods have their needs, we have our needs. You scratch their backs, they scratch your back. You give them the right to sacrifice, and they give you the right blessing. They are like souped up human beings with their fears their loves and their lusts and their hates, and then you make them happy and the gods make you happy, you see?

Thus, they have their needs. But God…doesn’t need us. Now it is important to keep saying that in our generation. Because we are so in danger of so psychologizing God that we are in danger of thinking of him as sort of up in heaven as really unhappy unless we get our praise choruses right.

Now do not misunderstand, I do not want to make God so withdrawn that he does not care about what happens. Or there is no place for his love or his wrath or his response to us. God is a personal God. But it is not as if God is a being larded with a whole lot of psychological needs, which only we can meet. So that in eternity past, dear old God was really quite lonely up there and decided to do something about it.

It is just not the way the God of the Bible is presented, you see? (DA Carson)

Or, as AW Tozer puts it much more succinctly, "God has no necessary relation to anything outside Himself; God has a voluntary relation to everything He has made.”

So it was not necessary for God to be doing anything before He created the universe. Whether He actually was doing anything or not we don't know - that isn't revealed to us and would be pure speculation.

what will he do when the world is no more?

He will create a new heaven and a new earth where the redeemed, having been resurrected from the dead, will dwell with Him for all Eternity.

We don't know exactly what that will be like, but I expect it to be a place where there will be fulfilling work and where we never stop learning new and exciting things.

Joe1919

The original posters question was a controversal and classical early medieval question and I will suggest two possible classical philosophical answers to the first part of the question. Bear in mind that as Aristotle says, time is the measure of change so if there is no world and only an eternal God, there is nothing to change, so time does not exist in this circumstance. Also bear in mind that most people have a linear Newtonian vision of time but Einstein theories have very much called this into question and it may be the case that the medievals view of time (presentism) is coherent.

Saint Augustine. (Confessions Book XI)There never was a time before the world was created because time itself did not exist before the universe.

St. Thomas Aquinas.(, On The Eternity of the World, DE AETERNITATE MUNDI) explains that causation does not necessarly involve time and the world, as Gods effect, MAY have always existed with God in terms of time but not in terms of causation. (When we say something is made out of nothing, we mean something is made, but that there is nothing from which it is made.)

All these sources are available on-line.

rockbeer

PDN wrote: »

He will create a new heaven and a new earth where the redeemed, having been resurrected from the dead, will dwell with Him for all Eternity.

We don't know exactly what that will be like, but I expect it to be a place where there will be fulfilling work and where we never stop learning new and exciting things.

Slightly OT, but... you sound as though you actually relish this prospect.

I personally can't imagine anything worse than living for eternity. Where wold be the motivation to do anything? You could always do it tomorrow. How are you going to feel by the nine zillionth Sunday afternoon, there won't even be the Premiership to fill up the endless hours.

Eternity is an awful long time. Who can honestly say they might not get a little bored and listless by the end. Oh, wait, there is no end.

I think there's something sweet and childlike but quite disturbing about an adult who genuinely wants to live forever. Have you really considered the implications? If eternal life turns out to be true (which I strongly doubt), it really would be god's ultimate punishment.

I for one am delighted that life ends. I'm not looking forward to it, but I know it's inevitable and can accept that fact with equanimity. In the meantime I'll try to live every day as though it were my last.

Helix

rockbeer wrote: »

I think there's something sweet and childlike but quite disturbing about an adult who genuinely wants to live forever. Have you really considered the implications? If eternal life turns out to be true (which I strongly doubt), it really would be god's ultimate punishment.

if eternal life turns out to be true, then the location of this eternal life will be more than a bit packed what with all the dead people of any given religion, youd have to think.

so what about people who hate crowds, like REALLY hate crowds. bit unfair to drag them off to this heaven where theres literally billions of people, who will all be there forever. some of the great artists wouldnt like that

we all know the "heaven is your utopia" line too, but what your utopia involves being near to people who dont want to be near you. your utopia is their hell, both in heaven? not much of a reward for them is it... but if thats the only thing youd consider heaven, its not much of a deal for you if dont get those people there

PDN

rockbeer wrote: »

Slightly OT, but... you sound as though you actually relish this prospect.

I personally can't imagine anything worse than living for eternity. Where wold be the motivation to do anything? You could always do it tomorrow. How are you going to feel by the nine zillionth Sunday afternoon, there won't even be the Premiership to fill up the endless hours.

Eternity is an awful long time. Who can honestly say they might not get a little bored and listless by the end. Oh, wait, there is no end.

I think there's something sweet and childlike but quite disturbing about an adult who genuinely wants to live forever. Have you really considered the implications? If eternal life turns out to be true (which I strongly doubt), it really would be god's ultimate punishment.

I for one am delighted that life ends. I'm not looking forward to it, but I know it's inevitable and can accept that fact with equanimity. In the meantime I'll try to live every day as though it were my last.

At present I love learning. I love learning musical instruments, languages, stuff about history etc. Imagine having enough time to learn numerous musical instruments and jam along with some of the greatest musicians in history. Imagine being able to study science (not the feeble baby steps science has taken up to 2009, but all the incredible things that still wait to be discovered). I'm looking foward to it, and if you find that disturbing then that's your problem, not mine.

if eternal life turns out to be true, then the location of this eternal life will be more than a bit packed what with all the dead people of any given religion, youd have to think.

so what about people who hate crowds, like REALLY hate crowds. bit unfair to drag them off to this heaven where theres literally billions of people, who will all be there forever. some of the great artists wouldnt like that

Personally I don't believe eternal life will be in heaven. The Bible says God will create a new heavens a new earth. I don't think overcrowding will be much of a problem - world population rates were low for millennia and have only hit really high rates very recently. The entire population of the redeemed could be less than the earth's current population, but in an environment where Greenland, Australia, the Amazon Basin, Siberia and the Sahara are pleasant places to live.

Of course a new earth could be much bigger than the present earth, but even it wasn't I think the overcrowding objection is irrelevant.

rockbeer

PDN wrote: »

At present I love learning. I love learning musical instruments, languages, stuff about history etc. Imagine having enough time to learn numerous musical instruments and jam along with some of the greatest musicians in history. Imagine being able to study science (not the feeble baby steps science has taken up to 2009, but all the incredible things that still wait to be discovered).

Hey, me too, learning is fantastic and life a wonderful thing. But we're not talking about another couple of hundred years here, nor a couple of thousand. We aren't even discussing a couple of million, for crying out loud. It's eternity. Have you any idea how long that could turn out to be? You have to recognize that for many - perhaps most - people, god won't just have to give them a new body but a complete personality transplant if eternity isn't to turn out to be, literally, hell a few billion billion years down the line. I find it hard to believe that even you could remain enthusiastic and excited literally forever. Burnout awaits...

PDN wrote: »

I'm looking foward to it, and if you find that disturbing then that's your problem, not mine.

I'm not convinced by that. I think that a refusal to come to terms with one's mortality is a childish characteristic. I prefer to grow up and accept the fact that time is my most precious resource.

Helix

PDN wrote: »

Imagine having enough time to learn numerous musical instruments and jam along with some of the greatest musicians in history

why would these great musicians want to jam with, or speak to you, in an afterlife?

PDN

Helix wrote: »

why would these great musicians want to jam with, or speak to you, in an afterlife?

Because a good story-teller always finds himself in good company. Plus, if they've made it to eternal life, their egos will have been resized (as will mine).

PDN

rockbeer wrote: »

I'm not convinced by that. I think that a refusal to come to terms with one's mortality is a childish characteristic. I prefer to grow up and accept the fact that time is my most precious resource.

So anyone who disagrees with your opinion on eternal life is, by definition, childish.

OK.

rockbeer

PDN wrote: »

So anyone who disagrees with your opinion on eternal life is, by definition, childish.

No. Anyone who refuses to accept their mortality is childish in that regard.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

So anyone who disagrees with your opinion on eternal life is, by definition, childish.

OK.

you know perfectly well that isn't what he said.

Helix

PDN wrote: »

Because a good story-teller always finds himself in good company. Plus, if they've made it to eternal life, their egos will have been resized (as will mine).

but why does that mean theyll like you?

CerebralCortex

PDN wrote: »

...Imagine being able to study science (not the feeble baby steps science has taken up to 2009, but all the incredible things that still wait to be discovered).

Baby steps relative to what exactly?

PDN wrote: »

I'm looking foward to it, and if you find that disturbing then that's your problem, not mine.

Sounds like you just want a better life.

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

you know perfectly well that isn't what he said.

It's exactly what he said.

Rockbeer believes that there is no eternal life.
Because I do believe in eternal life he raises the issue of 'refusing to accept one's mortality'.

Now, I see two possibilities here.
a) 'Refusing to accept one's mortality' has nothing to do with my belief in eternal life in which case Rockbeer was just plucking a random phrase out of the air tourette-style.
b) He is equating belief in eternal life (disagreeing with his denial of eternal life) with a refusal to accept mortality which he states is childish.

I think on a board like this we should be able to discuss different viewpoints. However, I don't see it helpful to label those who hold different views as childish.

Helix

PDN wrote: »

a) 'Refusing to accept one's mortality' has nothing to do with my belief in eternal life

i dont see how it can have nothing to do with it

you think youre going to live forever

PDN

Helix wrote: »

i dont see how it can have nothing to do with it

you think youre going to live forever

And that is the point I'm making. Thank you for your support.

rockbeer

PDN, you're twisting my words.

Irrespective of any beliefs in eternal life or otherwise, I regard the failure to accept one's own mortality as an immature characteristic.

That does not mean I label the person who holds such a view 'childish', anymore than I would label a person who commits an evil act 'evil'.

I'm not calling you names, I'm making an observation about your inability to accept that you will die.

Any way around, forget about yourself for a minute - what about all the other people with you in eternity less capable of finding indefinite fulfilment in the company of books and overblown former rock stars.

Do you imagine they will all find the same innnocent joy as yourself in billions upon billions of years of existence, and then a few billions more. And then a few billion more after that? Then another gazillion or so? Followed by another 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Then 999,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00,000 more.

And then another 123,456,789,876,543,210,123,456,789,876,543,210,123,456,789

And so on.

Have mercy. It just doesn't bear thinking about.

joenailface

rockbeer wrote: »

Do you imagine they will all find the same innnocent joy as yourself in billions upon billions of years of existence, and then a few billions more. And then a few billion more after that? Then another gazillion or so? Followed by another 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Then 999,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00,000 more.

And then another 123,456,789,876,543,210,123,456,789,876,543,210,123,456,789

And so on.

Have mercy. It just doesn't bear thinking about.

How do you know? You've never done it.

rockbeer

joenailface wrote: »

How do you know? You've never done it.

Let's just call it a hunch.

joenailface

rockbeer wrote: »

Let's just call it a hunch.

Blind faith eh? Love it.

rockbeer

joenailface wrote: »

Blind faith eh? Love it.

No faith necessary, not if you can count up to 24 and read a calendar.

Have you got a useful contribution to make to this discussion, or do you just want to carry on exchanging pointless quips?

PDN

rockbeer wrote: »

No, not blind, but based on the personal experience apparently so beloved of christians.

Ah, you have personal experience of spending eternity doing fun stuff and ending up getting bored? Please tell us more.

rockbeer

PDN wrote: »

Ah, you have personal experience of spending eternity doing fun stuff and ending up getting bored? Please tell us more.

Knew I'd get a response like this so I actually changed my comment but you beat me to it.

Anyway it was nothing so grand - I was just suggesting that I had experience of enough Sunday afternoons to know I didn't fancy an eternity of them.

This is all getting a bit silly. Are you guys saying life is so exciting that you can honestly never imagine experiencing a sense of ennui?

Or is it that you think it will somehow be different after the second coming?

Not trying to wind anyone up, but it honestly sounds to me as though you just haven't thought very carefully about the full implications of eternity. The prospect of dying is grim, for sure, but it seems to me that the alternative is truly appalling.

joenailface

Perhaps you just have a boring life?

rockbeer

joenailface wrote: »

Perhaps you just have a boring life?

And perhaps you just have no imagination.