Mr Judas

Just a question to all Christians. If the son of your god had to die, your god should not have made it necessary for someone (i.e. Judas) to be damned for that crucifixion to occur. How can you reconcile your god doing that with his image of a kind caring being?

PDN

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Just a question to all Christians. If the son of your god had to die, your god should not have made it necessary for someone (i.e. Judas) to be damned for that crucifixion to occur. How can you reconcile your god doing that with his image of a kind caring being?

It wasn't necessary for Judas to be damned at all. If Judas had repented and asked forgiveness then he would have been assured of eternal life. If he was damned it was because of his own choices. The same applies to you.

PDN

PDN wrote: »

It wasn't necessary for Judas to be damned at all. If Judas had repented and asked forgiveness then he would have been assured of eternal life. If he was damned it was because of his own choices. The same applies to you.

If it all is indeed true, Judas should have never been put in that position in the first place.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe it applies to me. Thanks anyway.

PDN

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

If it all is indeed true, Judas should have never been put in that position in the first place.

He put himself in that position. He made his choices.

Helix

PDN wrote: »

He put himself in that position. He made his choices.

wasnt he required to be in that position to fulfil the death of christ in the way that he was put on the earth to die in tho?

slightly ot here, but what ever happened to that alleged gospel of judas?

PDN

PDN wrote: »

He put himself in that position. He made his choices.

How on Earth did he choose to be in that position?! He didn't ask "god" to let him become one of the most hated people ever, did he?

BrianCalgary

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

How on Earth did he choose to be in that position?! He didn't ask "god" to let him become one of the most hated people ever, did he?

He chose to betray Jesus of his own will. God did not make him do it nor did enyone else.

After the event he was free to accept forgiveness for what he had done. He chose not to accept forgiveness.

You have also sinned of your own free will and you also can ask forgiveness. Your choice.

PDN

Helix wrote: »

wasnt he required to be in that position to fulfil the death of christ in the way that he was put on the earth to die in tho?

Someone was going to betray him, and Judas chose to be the one that woould get the 30 pieces of silver. I don't think God forced him to do it.

slightly ot here, but what ever happened to that alleged gospel of judas?

It's still around - just like it's always been since it was written (about 100 years after the Canonical Gospels).

BrianCalgary

BrianCalgary wrote: »

You have also sinned of your own free will and you also can ask forgiveness. Your choice.

Why do Christians keep turning it into a personal issue? I was asking a question, not for your nonsensical advice.

Helix

PDN wrote: »

Someone was going to betray him, and Judas chose to be the one that woould get the 30 pieces of silver. I don't think God forced him to do it.

fair enough, i dont know enough about it to be able to ask anything other than hypotheticals. its just always seemed to me that without judas doing what he did, the whole story of christ, and perhaps the religion(s) that came from it, may not have happened

PDN wrote: »

It's still around - just like it's always been since it was written (about 100 years after the Canonical Gospels).

is it viewed in the church as authentic? i only ask because the thread reminded me of a discovery channel documentary about it that i told myself i really should watch a few years ago... i forgot to watch it

philologos

considering that Jesus told the 12 that they would be on 12 thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel, I'm not sure how that fits in to Judas being damned? Can someone elaborate on that a bit if they are to argue that Judas were to be condemned for his role on the Crucifixion? Or is the idea that Mattias usurped Judas' position.

PDN

Jakkass wrote: »

considering that Jesus told the 12 that they would be on 12 thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel, I'm not sure how that fits in to Judas being damned? Can someone elaborate on that a bit if they are to argue that Judas were to be condemned for his role on the Crucifixion? Or is the idea that Mattias usurped Judas' position.

Matthias came off the substitutes bench in Acts Chapter 1.

Helix wrote:

is it viewed in the church as authentic?

Its viewed as an authentic reflection of what a fringe sect were teaching 150 years after Jesus.

Helix

PDN wrote: »

Its viewed as an authentic reflection of what a fringe sect were teaching 150 years after Jesus.

but are they held to be accurate by anyone in the same way that many would hold the gospels in the bible as we know it to be accurate? im just trying to get an idea of how theyre viewed really

PDN

Helix wrote: »

but are they held to be accurate by anyone in the same way that many would hold the gospels in the bible as we know it to be accurate? im just trying to get an idea of how theyre viewed really

No, they are not. The biblical Gospels are viewed by Christians as being accounts of Jesus that were written by apostolic eye witnesses (or close associates of) and were written in the First Century. The Gospel Of Judas was written much later, long after all eye witnesses were dead.

Helix

gotcha, cheers

BrianCalgary

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Why do Christians keep turning it into a personal issue? I was asking a question, not for your nonsensical advice.

Why do atheists keep coming on here and asking questions that they really don't want an aswer for?

One day it will hit you as to how sensible the advcie is.

BrianCalgary

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Why do atheists keep coming on here and asking questions that they really don't want an aswer for?

I would like an answer to my question, It has been somewhat answered so far, but not to a satisfactory level.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

One day it will hit you as to how sensible the advcie is.

I hope so, but I doubt it. But I guess time will tell.

BrianCalgary

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Just a question to all Christians. If the son of your god had to die, your god should not have made it necessary for someone (i.e. Judas) to be damned for that crucifixion to occur. How can you reconcile your god doing that with his image of a kind caring being?

It was answered bu PDN right after your OP.

God did not deem it necessary
Judas betrayed Christ out of his own desires and by his own will.

Fanny Cradock

BrianCalgary wrote: »

It was answered bu PDN right after your OP.

God did not deem it necessary
Judas betrayed Christ out of his own desires and by his own will.

Indeed. I actually have sympathy for the guy - I used to be concerned about the possibility that salvation was not an option for him. However, this is something I don't now believe. When he rejected the gift he made his own bed, so to speak.

Deicida

I thought I remembered something about Jesus telling Judas before hand at the supper so I looked it up:

Matthew 26:21
And while they were eating he said, “I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me.” 26:22 They became greatly distressed and each one began to say to him, “Surely not I, Lord?” 26:23 He answered, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 26:24 The Son of Man will go as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for him if he had never been born.” 26:25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus replied, “You have said it yourself.”

Maybe if Jesus hadn't told him he wouldn't have done it.

PDN

Deicida wrote: »

Maybe if Jesus hadn't told him he wouldn't have done it.

Hardly. He had already pocketed the thirty pieces of silver by that stage.

Deicida

I see. What would have happened if Judas didn't identify him? The prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled so it seems from the Old Testament prophecies that it was in God's plan for Judas to betray him.

wolfsbane

Deicida wrote: »

I see. What would have happened if Judas didn't identify him? The prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled so it seems from the Old Testament prophecies that it was in God's plan for Judas to betray him.

Yes, it was in God's plan that He would permit a thief to deceive his friends and betray the One who showed him every kindness. God did not make him do it - Judas did what his sinful heart desired. God took His restraining hand of him and allowed him to be the person he wanted to be.

A sobering thought for the rest of us: any goodness or decency we think we have is there only because God keeps us from being as evil as the worst of men.

Helix

wolfsbane wrote: »

A sobering thought for the rest of us: any goodness or decency we think we have is there only because God keeps us from being as evil as the worst of men.

so god favours some atheists over some christians? he must by that logic if he stops atheists being evil, yet doesnt stop some christians. to me that doesnt really make all that much sense

philologos

Deicida wrote: »

I see. What would have happened if Judas didn't identify him? The prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled so it seems from the Old Testament prophecies that it was in God's plan for Judas to betray him.

I personally think this is an issue which Christians could very easily disagree over. I think Judas did have a role to play in the Passion of Christ, and I'm not sure if all the negative attention surrounding him is warranted. I don't consider it clear cut in the Scriptures that Judas is meant to be a scapegoat.

PDN

Jakkass wrote: »

I personally think this is an issue which Christians could very easily disagree over. I think Judas did have a role to play in the Passion of Christ, and I'm not sure if all the negative attention surrounding him is warranted. I don't consider it clear cut in the Scriptures that Judas is meant to be a scapegoat.

He's not a scapegoat. He bears the consequence of his own sin, not anyone elses.

wolfsbane

Helix wrote: »

so god favours some atheists over some christians? he must by that logic if he stops atheists being evil, yet doesnt stop some christians. to me that doesnt really make all that much sense

No, all atheists and all Christians sin sometimes.

My point is that God restrains each person according to His purpose. Some are allowed to be very sinful, others not so much. Even true believers like David fell into adultery and murder.

But God's salvation is not based on how good or evil we have been. He saves sinners - all sorts of sinners - on the basis of His grace, received by faith. Not of works.

Those who are saved will go on to live generally (but not perfectly) holy lives, for God has given them a new nature and He will also discipline them to godliness. Their sin will bring certain chastisement, to bring them back to holiness.

philologos

Okay, but I can imagine myself being in the same position as Judas, and I can see Judas as having a role in enabling the Passion to happen the way it did. I'm not sure if we should be seeing Judas as some ultimately evil being. I'd be interested to hear how we can be 100% sure that Judas in damned.

Deicida

PDN wrote: »

He's not a scapegoat. He bears the consequence of his own sin, not anyone elses.

Ok he did have his own free will but it seems as though that role had to fulfilled by somebody to make the whole thing sound legit.

Helix

wolfsbane wrote: »

No, all atheists and all Christians sin sometimes.

My point is that God restrains each person according to His purpose. Some are allowed to be very sinful, others not so much. Even true believers like David fell into adultery and murder.

But God's salvation is not based on how good or evil we have been. He saves sinners - all sorts of sinners - on the basis of His grace, received by faith. Not of works.

Those who are saved will go on to live generally (but not perfectly) holy lives, for God has given them a new nature and He will also discipline them to godliness. Their sin will bring certain chastisement, to bring them back to holiness.

see this is where it all stops making sense to me and starts to become answers to suit the questions on behalf of christians

i have led what would be an exceptionally christian life (not for religious reasons, but purely coz im a fairly nice guy who was raised well)... except im an atheist. if there was a god, wouldnt you think that would be enough?

1) i used the intelligence he gave me to question the world and come up with the answer that the chemical makeup of my brain (created by him, allegedly) deemed the most reasonable answer from the evidence presented to me in the case of religion

2) i helped my fellow man when in need, and not in need

3) i have broken none of the commandments realistically still possible for someone growing up in this day and age not to have broken, ie 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 9 and 10 (i have no covetable neighbours )

probably a more christian life than a goodly proportion of christians. now if god loved all life he created equally, and was this great loving, caring, forgiving god we're always hearing about (as opposed to the jealous, bitter, violent, malevolent OT god), where would his problem lie with someone of my ilk as opposed to the christian who kills in the false name of the lord and exists with a heart full of hate?

as i say, this is where i start to get confused by the whole religion thing at times. is he that much of an ego tripper, your god?

BrianCalgary

Helix wrote: »

see this is where it all stops making sense to me and starts to become answers to suit the questions on behalf of christians

i have led what would be an exceptionally christian life (not for religious reasons, but purely coz im a fairly nice guy who was raised well)... except im an atheist. if there was a god, wouldnt you think that would be enough?

1) i used the intelligence he gave me to question the world and come up with the answer that the chemical makeup of my brain (created by him, allegedly) deemed the most reasonable answer from the evidence presented to me in the case of religion

2) i helped my fellow man when in need, and not in need

3) i have broken none of the commandments realistically still possible for someone growing up in this day and age not to have broken, ie 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 9 and 10 (i have no covetable neighbours )

probably a more christian life than a goodly proportion of christians. now if god loved all life he created equally, and was this great loving, caring, forgiving god we're always hearing about (as opposed to the jealous, bitter, violent, malevolent OT god), where would his problem lie with someone of my ilk as opposed to the christian who kills in the false name of the lord and exists with a heart full of hate?

as i say, this is where i start to get confused by the whole religion thing at times. is he that much of an ego tripper, your god?

Salvation is a function of faith and not of works. You have listed the rules that you haven't broken.

Salvation is not a function of do' and don't but of trust. Salvation is dependant on where you place your trust: in God, man, yourself, science?

wolfsbane

wolfsbane wrote: »

My point is that God restrains each person according to His purpose. Some are allowed to be very sinful, others not so much.

So in essence, God doesn't allow true free will? If he restrains each person, then that's certainly not allowing free will.

Which then leads to the question I've seen asked numerous times. All Christians (well any I've asked) say God couldn't have abolished evil, or even never created it, as that would impinge on human free will. But, if he restrains some people, that's tampering with free will. So what you're basically saying is that God can selectively control free will, but he won't do it to the point of abolishing evil. That sounds a tad bit malevolent to me. And don't give me the argument that God uses evil to judge our characters or whatever. Christians are always saying how amazingly powerful he is, don't you think he could of invented some other method of judging our characters other than introducing evil? Of course he could have.

Helix

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Salvation is dependant on where you place your trust: in God, man, yourself, science?

in whichever makes the most sense at that time when presented with all the evidence available to me

BrianCalgary

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Salvation is dependant on where you place your trust: in God, man, yourself, science?

So if, for example, I personally placed every ounce of my trust in science, in your opinion, does that make salvation something which I can't achieve?

Helix

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

So if, for example, I personally placed every ounce of my trust in science, in your opinion, does that make salvation something which I can't achieve?

which doesnt make any sense, coz god would have to be a scientist to create the universe. so surely he'd have more respect for someone who takes the scientific route than one who goes completely against it?

BrianCalgary

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

So if, for example, I personally placed every ounce of my trust in science, in your opinion, does that make salvation something which I can't achieve?

If I understand your meaning then yes, salvation is unacheivable.

Can science offer you eternal relationship with God?

BrianCalgary

BrianCalgary wrote: »

If I understand your meaning then yes, salvation is unacheivable.

Can science offer you eternal relationship with God?

Depends on your definition of God. If you mean, in essence, the universe and all it contains? A pantheistic God. Then yes, it can offer me a far greater relationship than religion can. But, if you mean God as a being, then no, I'm afraid it can't. That's left to the realm of mythology, in my opinion.

A Primal Nut

Helix wrote: »

see this is where it all stops making sense to me and starts to become answers to suit the questions on behalf of christians

i have led what would be an exceptionally christian life (not for religious reasons, but purely coz im a fairly nice guy who was raised well)... except im an atheist. if there was a god, wouldnt you think that would be enough?

1) i used the intelligence he gave me to question the world and come up with the answer that the chemical makeup of my brain (created by him, allegedly) deemed the most reasonable answer from the evidence presented to me in the case of religion

2) i helped my fellow man when in need, and not in need

3) i have broken none of the commandments realistically still possible for someone growing up in this day and age not to have broken, ie 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 9 and 10 (i have no covetable neighbours )

probably a more christian life than a goodly proportion of christians. now if god loved all life he created equally, and was this great loving, caring, forgiving god we're always hearing about (as opposed to the jealous, bitter, violent, malevolent OT god), where would his problem lie with someone of my ilk as opposed to the christian who kills in the false name of the lord and exists with a heart full of hate?

as i say, this is where i start to get confused by the whole religion thing at times. is he that much of an ego tripper, your god?

Yep, if you worship him you will have happiness for eternity whereas if you don't you will be damned and will suffer greatly. Sort of like living under Saddam Hussein or Kim-Jung Il.

Helix

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Yep, if you worship him you will have happiness for eternity whereas if you don't you will be damned and will suffer greatly

he sounds kinda pathetic tho doesnt he

if thats his buzz like

BrianCalgary

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Yep, if you worship him you will have happiness for eternity whereas if you don't you will be damned and will suffer greatly. Sort of like living under Saddam Hussein or Kim-Jung Il.

Off the mark with this statement.
You get what you desire. If you desire a relationship with God, you get an eternal relationship with Him. Otherwise known ans Heaven, as God is overflowing with love and wishes to share it.

If you desire to follow your own ways with no relationship with God, you get that. You can then hang out with all the partiers for eternity. Also know as Hell as everyone follows their own desires including Stan and his minions.

And besides no Tim Hortons coffee in Hell.

BrianCalgary

Helix wrote: »

he sounds kinda pathetic tho doesnt he

if thats his buzz like

His buzz is to share His love. His buzz is to give you the best life possible.

Should you choose to accept...........

Helix

BrianCalgary wrote: »

His buzz is to share His love. His buzz is to give you the best life possible.

Should you choose to accept...........

but only if you worship at his feet, without using the intelligence he supposedly gave you to question things

BrianCalgary

Helix wrote: »

but only if you worship at his feet, without using the intelligence he supposedly gave you to question things

uhhh.....excuse me????

What for a second makes you think that I or any other Christian has never questioned things?

That has got to be the most condescending statement anyone could make.:mad::mad:

philologos

Indeed, given that Christians have been debating and studying the theology and philosophy behind Biblical belief ever since it emerged into Europe and Asia from Israel. For me that would be using cognitive faculties and intelligence

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

Indeed, given that Christians have been debating and studying the theology and philosophy behind Biblical belief ever since it emerged into Europe and Asia from Israel. For me that would be using cognitive faculties and intelligence

And of for every person who's devoted their life to proving it true, how many have devoted their lives to proving it false?

Rather fewer, I suspect!

BrianCalgary

BrianCalgary wrote: »

uhhh.....excuse me????

What for a second makes you think that I or any other Christian has never questioned things?

That has got to be the most condescending statement anyone could make.:mad::mad:

Not to sound condescending or patronising, but, I think that there are far greater things one can devote their intelligence to. But, again, that's just my personal opinion. Each to their own.

wolfsbane

Helix wrote: »

see this is where it all stops making sense to me and starts to become answers to suit the questions on behalf of christians

i have led what would be an exceptionally christian life (not for religious reasons, but purely coz im a fairly nice guy who was raised well)... except im an atheist. if there was a god, wouldnt you think that would be enough?

1) i used the intelligence he gave me to question the world and come up with the answer that the chemical makeup of my brain (created by him, allegedly) deemed the most reasonable answer from the evidence presented to me in the case of religion

2) i helped my fellow man when in need, and not in need

3) i have broken none of the commandments realistically still possible for someone growing up in this day and age not to have broken, ie 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 9 and 10 (i have no covetable neighbours )

probably a more christian life than a goodly proportion of christians. now if god loved all life he created equally, and was this great loving, caring, forgiving god we're always hearing about (as opposed to the jealous, bitter, violent, malevolent OT god), where would his problem lie with someone of my ilk as opposed to the christian who kills in the false name of the lord and exists with a heart full of hate?

as i say, this is where i start to get confused by the whole religion thing at times. is he that much of an ego tripper, your god?

The God of the NT is the God of the OT. We need all of the revealed facts about Him to give us a true picture. Your attempt was a mere caricature. He is both loving and holy, so just as He provides salvation for all who repent and trust in Christ, He will certainly punish sin.

As another brother has pointed out, your big mistake is thinking your relatively moral life is enough to warrant acceptance by God. But the holy God demands a completely sinless life, not just a moderately sinless one. One sin is enough to deserve eternal banishment from His face.

As I'm sure you will accept you have so sinned, your only hope is the one God offers in the gospel - justification by His grace alone. You must depend on Christ's work on the cross, not on your own. Christ bore the punishment for the sins of all who will believe in Him. He saves them from the power of sin in this life and from the penalty of sin in the next.

wolfsbane

wolfsbane wrote: »

<snip>But the holy God demands a completely sinless life, not just a moderately sinless one. One sin is enough to deserve eternal banishment from His face.

As I'm sure you will accept you have so sinned, your only hope is the one God offers in the gospel - justification by His grace alone<snip>

But, if we are to believe Christianity, we are already born with sin. We are born with sin, and sin leads to hell, but, we've a get out of jail card in worshipping God unwillingly (as to do otherwise leads to hell). I imagine if something similar emerged in todays society, it would be tried in the court of law as entrapment. That's one of my fundamental problems with Christianity.

wolfsbane

-JammyDodger- said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
My point is that God restrains each person according to His purpose. Some are allowed to be very sinful, others not so much.
So in essence, God doesn't allow true free will? If he restrains each person, then that's certainly not allowing free will.

Yes, it depends on one's definition of free-will. If your definition is used, then no-one has free-will, for other people and events often frustrate our wills. The car in front, the inconvenient red-light, parental discipline, etc.

Which then leads to the question I've seen asked numerous times. All Christians (well any I've asked) say God couldn't have abolished evil, or even never created it, as that would impinge on human free will.

They are speculating, for God doesn't tell us anything about it.

But, if he restrains some people, that's tampering with free will.

If by free-will we mean not being forced to do moral evil, then that would not be true. Even in our society, the concept of freedom is not lessened by being denied the freedom to do evil. Am I less free because the law says I will go to prison if I rob or murder?

So what you're basically saying is that God can selectively control free will, but he won't do it to the point of abolishing evil.

I doubt He is limited by any such definition of free-will; He does whatever is according to His free-will. Yes, that means He is free to chose when He brings evil to an end, or if He permits it in the first place.

That sounds a tad bit malevolent to me.

God doesn't owe sinners anything but wrath. Who are we to tell God how to run the universe?

And don't give me the argument that God uses evil to judge our characters or whatever. Christians are always saying how amazingly powerful he is, don't you think he could of invented some other method of judging our characters other than introducing evil? Of course he could have.

Why should sinners be spared from evil? If God cut us off immediately we would have been justly treated. Yet He spares us long and often. Our suffering from our sin and other's sin should cause us to see how evil sin is and to long to be rid of it. Most are only keen to be rid of other's sinful practices and would be quite put out if their sin were challenged.

wolfsbane

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

But, if we are to believe Christianity, we are already born with sin. We are born with sin, and sin leads to hell, but, we've a get out of jail card in worshipping God unwillingly (as to do otherwise leads to hell). I imagine if something similar emerged in todays society, it would be tried in the court of law as entrapment. That's one of my fundamental problems with Christianity.

The undeniable fact is that we are sinners - criminals, to use your analogy. We commit the crimes, willingly.

Do you think a human judge would accept as justification for murder the fact that you always had a bad temper?

But you mistake the way of salvation when you say one can escape hell by worshiping God unwillingly. The only acceptable way to worship God is in spirit and truth, to love Him with all of our being:
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment.

wolfsbane

Jakkass wrote: »

Okay, but I can imagine myself being in the same position as Judas, and I can see Judas as having a role in enabling the Passion to happen the way it did. I'm not sure if we should be seeing Judas as some ultimately evil being. I'd be interested to hear how we can be 100% sure that Judas in damned.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, “Rabbi, is it I?”
He said to him, “You have said it.”

Acts 1:25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.