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BER Cert cost?
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sydthebeat wrote: »i did my first 'existing' assessmnet between today and yesterday..
the on site took me 1 hr 15 mins, but i reckon i can get this down to about 50 mins without client on site chatting,,,,
the pc assessment took 1 hr 30 mins... again i think i could get it down to 1 hr without the twoing and froing on the nas....
but travel time was 25 mins there and 25 back.....
so i would agree... no way could you do a proper assessment in 2 1/2 hrs....
According to your own calcs 50min onsite and 1hr doing input. this leaves 40 min for travel to do an assessment in 2.5 hrs.
Now i agree it is a tight schelule but definatly possible.
I did 2 homes last wednesday in the same estate approx 10 mins travel from me. typical terrace houses. took an hour and fifteen min to survey both. then 1.5 hrs to input data for both. total 3hrs including cup o tea for two.
And i did a proper assessment. I have been audited already onsite.0 -
Your the man TC
In all sincerity- sounds like you have it truly sussed - well done0 -
In fairness i did one yesterday which took me 3 hrs to measure and 1.5 hrs to input but you take the good with the bad.0
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Devil's in the detail No.6..... Lets be realistic.
(Nothing wrong will stacking shelves in Tesco - good honest work, need a brain to stack goods and can have pride in it)
Topcatcbr has it sussed - sometimes you can be lucky with two houses in the same estate. Or another house in the estate you did last week.
How many housing estates in your town? Do a house in each estate and you have part of the work done for future houses in that estate! How many Registered BER Assessors in your town?
Or one builder comes to you with 30 new houses - jackpot.
Like a Snag or a Survey, with travel and facing the unknown - still you win on some and you rarely loose on others, regards time spent. More liability on a structural survey.
Even €250 per day ( one BER per day) everyday is a nice earner! Anyone that sold it as a new business, or "easy street" should be shot. It was unrealistic.0 -
With my Landlords hat on:
As a landlord, all I want is the necessary piece of paper which ensures I am compliant with the law. I have just rented my Dublin apartment (through a letting agency) and there was no mention of a BER cert. I'm getting one done for my own peace of mind. I dont really care what the rating is so I will probably go with the cheapest quote I get. I see it as another stealth tax.
Now with my BER Assessor's hat on:
There is no way I could offer a ber service for some of the quotes I have been getting. Luckily, ber assessments is not my sole business but is complimentary to my business. I know I am being undercut in pricing for the ber service all the time by speaking with the prospects who call me. I don't mind and am not worried. I live on my reputation and the way I see it this has kept me in business over the last 10 years and will do so going into the future.
At the end of the day, the market (property) will decide what a ber is worth (a worthless peice of paper or a marketing advantage). Anybody relying solely on ber for a livelyhood should seriously re-evaluate their plans and make sure they have some other form of income (in the short term at least).0 -
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True absolutley nothing wrong with any job if its paying you money in this climate!!!:DDevil's in the detail No.6..... Lets be realistic.
(Nothing wrong will stacking shelves in Tesco - good honest work, need a brain to stack goods and can have pride in it)
Also true unfortunately most of the houses I'll be doing are one offs, not so many estates around here!!!Topcatcbr has it sussed - sometimes you can be lucky with two houses in the same estate. Or another house in the estate you did last week.
Its a very small town!!! only small estates with nobody selling anything!!! most will sit on it untill they have to do it, ie are signing contracts, I've just done a preliminary cert for a house I've designed myself that the builder is selling half built as is and he didn't even want to do the preliminary cert (or pay for the supervision so far!!)How many housing estates in your town? Do a house in each estate and you have part of the work done for future houses in that estate! How many Registered BER Assessors in your town?
No, you'd give him a major discount, perhaps a decent fee for the first of a house type with repeats at a serious discount, after all you would only be tweeking a few figures for each house and theres no builders around here doing 30 houses they are not even doing one!!!:eek:Or one builder comes to you with 30 new houses - jackpot.
True, although SEI are reccomending 1.3m cover, its a bit high to me and yes I do have it!!!:eek:Like a Snag or a Survey, with travel and facing the unknown - still you win on some and you rarely loose on others, regards time spent. More liability on a structural survey.
As I siad earlier its the everyday idea, one a week where I live at this stage would be good!!! and just so you all don't think I'm a complete slow coach I had two new builds done off plans in a few hours yesterday, but they wouln't be finished for a few months and then I'll have to get confirmations of everything and alter all the bits they've changes ( you know the way I want A but will only pay for B ) The speed topcat is doing the existing its looking like they are easier as you use the information from the survey only. I've got a few existing coming up in the next few weeks a so I'll report back when I do them!!:DEven €250 per day ( one BER per day) everyday is a nice earner! Anyone that sold it as a new business, or "easy street" should be shot. It was unrealistic.0 -
€50 per hour to run a business simply isnt sustainable... if you are paying wages, rent, insurance, utilities, equpiment, paye, prsi etc from this fee. As has been alluded to.. theres no-one out there doing 40 hrs a week at 50 per hr on BERs....
therefore its a case of small independant assessors with little expenditure pricing against 'office' based assessors. I have no problem at all with this, however if the small independant assessor (remember there was no restriction on entrance qualifications) pushing the 'office based' assessor out of the market, its my opinion that the skill level involved in being an assessor will drop.
To provide a professional assessment, in my opinion, is to do a lot more than just the final calculations. The advisory side is hugely important for then success of the scheme. Optimistically, the BER requirement should be viewed by Joe Public as being a valuable service, an advisory service as to how to save money, rather than the 'stealth tax' label its getting.....
When it comes to advising on factors such as u value maximising in building elements, control over heating and ventilation systems, suitability of building methods, best practises to achieve a good BER, etc... then its my opinion that educated or experienced construction professionals are best placed to offer this service. basically, you dont need much training to take and input calcuations... but you certainly do to advise of best use of materials, processes and systems.
The problem occurs when you have a client who is genuinely interested in incorporating best practises, but is faced with prices differences in the range of 2:1 for what they basically see as the same service....
Maybe SEI understand this issues thus have a generic 'advisory report' that is generated with assessments.... worthless reports IMHO.. which only add to confusion of clients.
i fear the inability of the administrators of the scheme to recognise this will tarnish the reputation of the scheme and the ideology behind its implementation.0 -
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Great post sydthebeat......100% concur.0 -
I couldn't agree more mick!!MicktheMan wrote: »With my Landlords hat on:
As a landlord, all I want is the necessary piece of paper which ensures I am compliant with the law. I have just rented my Dublin apartment (through a letting agency) and there was no mention of a BER cert. I'm getting one done for my own peace of mind. I dont really care what the rating is so I will probably go with the cheapest quote I get. I see it as another stealth tax.
Now with my BER Assessor's hat on:
There is no way I could offer a ber service for some of the quotes I have been getting. Luckily, ber assessments is not my sole business but is complimentary to my business. I know I am being undercut in pricing for the ber service all the time by speaking with the prospects who call me. I don't mind and am not worried. I live on my reputation and the way I see it this has kept me in business over the last 10 years and will do so going into the future.
At the end of the day, the market (property) will decide what a ber is worth (a worthless peice of paper or a marketing advantage). Anybody relying solely on ber for a livelyhood should seriously re-evaluate their plans and make sure they have some other form of income (in the short term at least).0 -
All of the above is true and I agree 100%i fear the inability of the administrators of the scheme to recognise this will tarnish the reputation of the scheme and the ideology behind its implementation.
I think the will in this bit is geting very close to has if it's not there already!!!!I hope I'm wrong.0 -
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Advertising in two threads......tut tut!0 -
Not any more 0
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Lots of office survive on €50 per hour all inclusive - thats what an hourly rate is for. Anyone that expected to be full time BER Assessor was mistaken, especially now as we are in Recession!
I understand people "trying" to say one Assessor may give a better service than another - no proof has been offered.
Very little stated about competitive service to the public or raising standards. Maybe its seen as a Tax because there seems to be so little competition! Is it a closed shop? (No, a monopoly would be illegal - nothing like that could happen in Ireland)
Officially a BER Assessor is a BER Assessor - there aren't any grades or levels etc as far as I'm aware. So the "I'm better than him" idea is unsubstantiated and remains to be seen. You can't give "extra" advise if you don't want to talk to the Client, cutting down time on site etc.
IMO its a pity to see equally qualified people fight and degrade their peers, based on fees.
As we are tending to go around in circles here, anyone know how a "similar" system in the UK went? (I understand there are differences in fee and calculation)
I'm only interested in:-- Has their system been accepted by the Public?
- Is the UK system seen as a "tax" by the UK public?
- How has it effected the downturn in UK housing market?
- Are the public aware of their UK system?
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Thats the problem RQK some people did and as this is all they are doing some (not all) are unercutting like mad to get the work, fair enough but how lone will they survive at it. There comes a point where you a loosing money just to work not much point of that even in a recession!Lots of office survive on €50 per hour all inclusive - thats what an hourly rate is for. Anyone that expected to be full time BER Assessor was mistaken, especially now as we are in Recession!
I didn't realise that we were in a court your honour:D, but I'm sure in time you'll hear plenty of casesI understand people "trying" to say one Assessor may give a better service than another - no proof has been offered.
You musn't be reading a lot of the posts there a few of us banging on and on and on about standards and theres huge competition that thats why some of us are wondering how some people can price so low, if thats not competition I don't know what isVery little stated about competitive service to the public or raising standards. Maybe its seen as a Tax because there seems to be so little competition! Is it a closed shop? (No, a monopoly would be illegal - nothing like that could happen in Ireland)
well yes and no, we're all equally quailified in terms of domestic, but have a look at the non domestic, SEI are imposing qualification levels there and some of us worked hard to get the likes of you and I level seven qualified arch tech one that list in the first place!! (which involves more training and cost) and then theres the SEI exam!! I'm not trying to degrade anyone if they can do the work on a sustainable baisis at a level I or anyone else can't compete with then thats our problem, fair play to them. The market will find a level but if its so low as to be not profitable there's no point in doing it, you don't work at a loss all the time do you?Officially a BER Assessor is a BER Assessor - there aren't any grades or levels etc as far as I'm aware. So the "I'm better than him" idea is unsubstantiated and remains to be seen. You can't give "extra" advise if you don't want to talk to the Client, cutting down time on site etc.
IMO its a pity to see equally qualified people fight and degrade their peers, based on fees.As we are tending to go around in circles here, anyone know how a "similar" system in the UK went? (I understand there are differences in fee and calculation)
I'm only interested in:-- Has their system been accepted by the Public?
- Is the UK system seen as a "tax" by the UK public?
- How has it effected the downturn in UK housing market?
- Are the public aware of their UK system?
Sure you could have been an Architect with all those circles!!!:D and no I don't know much about the uk system, apart from I heard its a lot simpler, quicker and cheaper!!
Time will tell with the BER system as I'm involved I do hope it works out but this being Ireland thats most likely not going to happen is it!!!:eek:0 -
There are no grades of Energy Assessor however Energy Assessors come from a wide variety of backgrounds. Energy Assessor may have NO third level Building Construction related qualification or be a Chartered Engineer with a many years experience in both the construction and energy auditing fields.
When engaging an assessor I would recommend asking not only the price but the qualifications and experience held by the assessor. The answer would be very lilkely influence your decision.0 -
ben bedlam wrote: »I know a BER Assessor who does houses for no more than €225 including SEI fee
I know one fellow who did one for 70 euro. It did not take him too long either. Because of the high prices charged by some, it pays to shop around plenty.0 -
I know one fellow who did one for 70 euro. It did not take him too long either. Because of the high prices charged by some, it pays to shop around plenty.
I know an assessor who works in the Cork area, and he charges €75 for a BER for any size house. When you take out the €25 fee for SEI, its €50. I think thats reasonable0 -
As I said above, anyone that thought this would be a new business oppertunity was mistaken. However, it is early days.Thats the problem RQK some people did and as this is all they are doing some (not all) are unercutting like mad to get the work, fair enough but how lone will they survive at it. There comes a point where you a loosing money just to work not much point of that even in a recession!I didn't realise that we were in a court your honour:D, but I'm sure in time you'll hear plenty of cases
You musn't be reading a lot of the posts there a few of us banging on and on and on about standards and theres huge competition that thats why some of us are wondering how some people can price so low, if thats not competition I don't know what is
I've read all post with interest. I just hope ordinary members of the public don't get the impression that anyone with a competitive BER quote is somehow classed as a Cowboy.:D In my experience "cowboys" charge top rates for substandard services.well yes and no, we're all equally quailified in terms of domestic, but have a look at the non domestic, SEI are imposing qualification levels there and some of us worked hard to get the likes of you and I level seven qualified arch tech one that list in the first place!! (which involves more training and cost) and then theres the SEI exam!! I'm not trying to degrade anyone if they can do the work on a sustainable baisis at a level I or anyone else can't compete with then thats our problem, fair play to them. The market will find a level but if its so low as to be not profitable there's no point in doing it, you don't work at a loss all the time do you?
I'm primarily talking about Domestic - proposed and existing! Anyone qualified as a BER Assessor and Registered with SEI, is playing on a level playing pitch with an Equal and accepted qualification.Time will tell with the BER system as I'm involved I do hope it works out but this being Ireland thats most likely not going to happen is it!!!:eek:
Very true, we can agree on this.:D Pity theres no answers to my previous 4 questions on the UK system.0 -
Right, a few good facts pointed out in this thread,
However, unfortunately RQK, i've to dissagree with you.
My experience- I spent over a year working on assessments for new builds, knocked out a serious amount, i could do one with my eyes closed at this point, lucky the builder mainly involved in us isnt as money hungry as other builders and wanted his houses built to a very high spec.
I've recently left that area and am concentrating on my actual profession, a building services engineer,
Before I went back to concentrating on B.S.E., i engaged a certain assessor company, in their early stage of setting up, I was considering joining their group, a franchise, I was interested in the Dublin/Wicklow area.
Sat down, had the talk with the owner, went through everything with him, after quizing him on the type of people he had already recruited, including accountants (not for looking after his books), I was shocked to say the least.
These people had zero experience with construction & heating systems.
Right says I, fair enough. Seems fairly decent setup none the less.
Following that, i went to one of these energy shows, where I knew they'd be. Not stalking them of course lol.
Anyway, during my day there I went to a talk from a company that is involved in installing HRV units. Which, if anyone knows there stuff about saving energy there a great idea.
So after the talk had been given, the presenter asks "any questions"
With a few questions thrown up about health risks etc and the presenter was well informed about, one of the employees from this assessor co. throws his hand up and the mic gets passed down. *ooohhhh says I
"Hi, Im so and so from this certain energy assessor co. We've been doin assesments for x amount of time, and everytime we input one of these HRV units we're getting a higher Co2 emmissions rating"
The presenter stood there defending the HRV units and explained he had also carried out assessments. And it was common knowledge that these do save energy.
I actually felt bad for the presenter, as the assessor stood their claiming that he and his other assesor colleuges specialise in doing these and he was right.
However if this assessor said, Hi, im so and so, ive been an accountant for 15 years and have decided to give this construction business a go, im pretty sure the audience's view on HRV units wouldnt have been as damaged.
However, the full time professional assessor clearly didnt have a full understanding as to how they worked and by inputting a HRV unit into the DEAP software, you get the benefit of withdrawing some ventilation losses.
Unfortunately, i think the guy giving the talk simply ddnt have the balls to stand up to this "professional assesor" and say, well your simply incapable of inputting the data correctly, you and your clan.
With that, I lost all interest in dealing with the assessor company, and said to myself, only time will drive these chancers out of the market. However, it seems the company are still going, so the only advice I can give to people getting an assesment done, is to try get someone who has some sort of background in construction.
Preferably an Architect or a Building Service Engineer.
Simple as0 -
As i said above RKQ, the difference in service i was referring to was in the role as an energy advisor... i completely agree with you that anyone who has trained on the course can collect, determine and input the data into a piece of software... .that is not in question at all.... and this service is perfect for the landlord / developer who is only interested in obtaining this cert to comply with whatever reg they need to. We are in complete agreement on this.
However where i do not agree with you is where i argue that one assessor can give a vastly more superior service than another. The advisory side IS an important part of the service IMHO... and theres no way an auctioneer / farmer / hairdresser etc who is an assessor can / will give as good or better advice to someone building a house as to how best improve energy conservation than say someone either educated in building sciene or highly experienced in building. I would argue that these 'non- construction' background assessor are quite happy to print off the SEI generic advisory report and present it to the client as 'advice'.
For example, i was talking to clients who were approached by an assessor to do a prelim ber on a new build... as part of what he advised, he advised that they use 60mm kingspan in the cavity and dryline with another 60mm kingspan and 12.5mm plasterboard. Now its my opinion, based on experience and education, that this construction is a very dangerous make up from a health point of view and i completely argued against it with the client, outlining all my issues with it.
Now maybe it can be argued that it shouldnt be the assessors place to suggest constructions, but the role of the assessor demands it.0 -
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Sydhtebeat & Smoothoperator
Great contributions. Time will show that assessors with an experienced background in building services, design and construction offer great value when completing a BER.
A BER is more than just a Cert or piece of paper, word of mouth is powerful. Architects, Engineers, Building Service Engineers and similar professionals have so much to offer when completing a BER. It will be very interesting to read similar threads next year when customers are giving feedback.
It has been my experience over the past 20 years that 90% of our work is from referrals. Even builders and Landlords will pay more than the bargin basment price for experience and professional advice.
Once again great to read contributions from other guys with experience.0 -
This thread is about the BER Cert Cost.
When It comes to domestic existing or proposed, then a BER Assessor is a BER Assessor, once they are Registered with SEI.
I agree that a construction background would be of great benefit to a BER Assessor. Whether this advice or "knowlege" is passed on to a client is a different issue, which remains to be seen.
I assume higher qualifications are required for the latest BER course to reflect the professional advise that my be required for buildings other than domestic.
Snobery creeps into many professions, as its seems it did in the example smothoperator gave. This Assessor may have been an Accountant but this didn't stop him using his limited knowledge to belittle a Presented - no excuse for aggressive ignorance from a small minded silly billy.
Those, like the Accountant, feeling superior and that price themselves out of the market may find it difficult.
The market will decide on the Cost of BER Certs. Thats just a fact of life.
(Anybody able to comment on the 4 questions above???)0 -
This thread is about the BER Cert Cost.
When It comes to domestic existing or proposed, then a BER Assessor is a BER Assessor, once they are Registered with SEI.
I agree that a construction background would be of great benefit to a BER Assessor. Whether this advice or "knowlege" is passed on to a client is a different issue, which remains to be seen.
I assume higher qualifications are required for the latest BER course to reflect the professional advise that my be required for buildings other than domestic.
Snobery creeps into many professions, as its seems it did in the example smothoperator gave. This Assessor may have been an Accountant but this didn't stop him using his limited knowledge to belittle a Presented - no excuse for aggressive ignorance from a small minded silly billy.
Those, like the Accountant, feeling superior and that price themselves out of the market may find it difficult.
The market will decide on the Cost of BER Certs. Thats just a fact of life.
(Anybody able to comment on the 4 questions above???)
why inquire about a UK system?? its a different situation and not conducive to this issue??0 -
Thanks Sydthebeat, just interested in UK public reaction (if any) and how their system has worked out. It out longer than ours so maybe we can learn for their teething problems (if any)0
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Thanks Sydthebeat, just interested in UK public reaction (if any) and how their system has worked out. It out longer than ours so maybe we can learn for their teething problems (if any)
im not completely up to date with the uk system, but i have been led to believe that EPC (ber) certs on new dwellings can be got for around 50 - 75 pound.
AFAIK the public over there view it much the same as over here... ie if your a developer or landlord its a tax... if your a purchaser or self builder its a useful tool...
heres a useful sample of a home information pack that a purchaser would expect to recieve... it has a sample epc cert.....
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/BuyingAndSellingYourHome/Homeinformationpacks/DG_171807?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=174313&Rendition=Web0 -
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Some people here are going on about that somehow a BER cert from an architect or building services engineer is somehow more valid than a BER cert provided by someonw from a different profession. What a load of rubbish. Everyone on the SEI register has completed the appropriate training, exams and has paid their dues and is qualified to carry out assessments. At the end of the day, the customer wants the best value for money they can get from a registered assessor, regardless of their profession. I cant see how someone should have to pay more than €150 for a cert.0
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The SEI rules for training provider stated that you should have at least a Cert (Level 6)in construction studies. This is the min level of knowledge they thought necessary to perform the function. The BER training was only to instruct on how to use the software and the guidelines for doing the survey. It was not a construction studies course (you should of already done this). If someone does not know what they are looking at when it comes to doing a survey how can they assess a building properly. It is not just a case of measuring as it is in UK system (which is why it is done by auctioneers there). We are expected to do and know more.ben bedlam wrote: »Some people here are going on about that somehow a BER cert from an architect or building services engineer is somehow more valid than a BER cert provided by someonw from a different profession. What a load of rubbish. Everyone on the SEI register has completed the appropriate training, exams and has paid their dues and is qualified to carry out assessments. At the end of the day, the customer wants the best value for money they can get from a registered assessor, regardless of their profession.ben bedlam wrote: »I cant see how someone should have to pay more than €150 for a cert.
I will tell you why. I will start by breaking down that €150 into the individual costs.
All costs exclude income tax
€150 less vat = €123.46
€123.46
€123.46 less SEI Fee = €98.46
€98.46 less transport (allow €20 to get to and from property) = €78.46
Now you could take overheads (property, Equipment, cost of Van & servicing tax & insurance, lighting & Electricity, Paper & Ink etc) but i wont for the purpose of this just not to over complicate things.
now lets start adding setting up costs (not including above mentioned averheads)
At least one computer to run software on (most will have two PC & Laptop). €800
Cost of New Dwellings Course €1800
Loss of earnings while on course €40 x 40hrs = €1600
cost of existing dwellings course €500
Loss of earnings while on course €40 x 16hrs = €640
cost of registering with sei €1,000 ex VAT
cost of PI & PL as advised by SEI €800
Total costs €7140. (Not including Websites and advertisings)
now perform some division
€7140/98.46 = 72.5 assessments (two years after the scheme started i know of nobody who has done this many) before you earn a penny
With each assessment taking an average of 4 hrs to complete then
72.5 x 4 = 290hrs unpaid work (8 (38hr) working Weeks) before any money is earned.
Then to earn only €18 per hr (not taking out your own holiday pay and taking account of the fact you have to keep your own books and employ an accountant to do your returns)
This list of costs as said have not included everything and personally i have at least spent the same on advertising.
Now i dont know about you but at this rate id rather do no collage degree spend no money and get a job in tesco for €10.65 per hour
What do you think.
I hope this helps0 -
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The SEI rules for training provider stated that you should have at least a Cert (Level 6)in construction studies. This is the min level of knowledge they thought necessary to perform the function. The BER training was only to instruct on how to use the software and the guidelines for doing the survey. It was not a construction studies course (you should of already done this). If someone does not know what they are looking at when it comes to doing a survey how can they assess a building properly. It is not just a case of measuring as it is in UK system (which is why it is done by auctioneers there). We are expected to do and know more.
I will tell you why. I will start by breaking down that €150 into the individual costs.
All costs exclude income tax
€150 less vat = €123.46
€123.46
€123.46 less SEI Fee = €98.46
€98.46 less transport (allow €20 to get to and from property) = €78.46
Now you could take overheads (property, Equipment, cost of Van & servicing tax & insurance, lighting & Electricity, Paper & Ink etc) but i wont for the purpose of this just not to over complicate things.
now lets start adding setting up costs (not including above mentioned averheads)
At least one computer to run software on (most will have two PC & Laptop). €800
Cost of New Dwellings Course €1800
Loss of earnings while on course €40 x 40hrs = €1600
cost of existing dwellings course €500
Loss of earnings while on course €40 x 16hrs = €640
cost of registering with sei €1,000 ex VAT
cost of PI & PL as advised by SEI €800
Total costs €7140. (Not including Websites and advertisings)
now perform some division
€7140/98.46 = 72.5 assessments (two years after the scheme started i know of nobody who has done this many) before you earn a penny
With each assessment taking an average of 4 hrs to complete then
72.5 x 4 = 290hrs unpaid work (8 (38hr) working Weeks) before any money is earned.
Then to earn only €18 per hr (not taking out your own holiday pay and taking account of the fact you have to keep your own books and employ an accountant to do your returns)
This list of costs as said have not included everything and personally i have at least spent the same on advertising.
Now i dont know about you but at this rate id rather do no collage degree spend no money and get a job in tesco for €10.65 per hour
What do you think.
I hope this helps
I think I struck a nerve.0
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