BER Cert cost?

topcatcbr

ben bedlam wrote: »

I think I struck a nerve.

Not really but like many of the regular posters here i am willing to back up a statement with fact and figures and not just throw around opinions without any facts or basis.

I didnt really take your comment seriously but i thought it was worth explaining why cost are what they are.

dardevle

intresting article in sunday paper today regarding
the "ber" and lack of consistency with the test.

bren33

I am a landlord of 2 houses and got certs from an architect firm in <SNIP>. Not sure if I can post their details?!

Great service and very fast which at least took the sting out of having to get them in the first place. Prices gnerally seem to be €225-250 but he knocked a few bob off and had each done within 24hours. Didn't matter where the house was either - I have one Southside and one in West Dublin.

Be careful who you hand keys over to - some BER surveyors are amateur tradesmen looking for a quick buck. Stick with Architects or Engineers - same price and you get a bit more info at the same time (and a pair of safe hands)!!!!!

PM me if you want their details, but I can't recommend strongly enough.

muffler

bren33 be careful with your posts. If I wanted to be picky I could treat your last (and first) 2 posts as spam as they are both identical.

Im giving you the benefit of the doubt here so dont give me reason to regret it.

bren33

sorry about that muffler. posted in one and realised it would have been better in another! mea culpa.

btw. I personally know of an IT programmer, an IT sales guy, and an ex shop manager who are all now qualified to do BER certs. Point is they are simply filling in a form with NO industry experience. I'd advise anyone to stick to the guys who know what they are doing, are already in the industry, and who are keen for the business!

It's only an opinion!!!

muffler

bren33 wrote: »

sorry about that muffler. posted in one and realised it would have been better in another! mea culpa.

Thats fine so.

brianmacl

bren33 wrote: »

sorry about that muffler. posted in one and realised it would have been better in another! mea culpa.

btw. I personally know of an IT programmer, an IT sales guy, and an ex shop manager who are all now qualified to do BER certs. Point is they are simply filling in a form with NO industry experience. I'd advise anyone to stick to the guys who know what they are doing, are already in the industry, and who are keen for the business!

It's only an opinion!!!

I think it is a case of buyer be ware. But I wouldn't say that you should only stick to architects ect. A person hiring an Assessor should get a good idea from speaking to them if they will try get you the best possible cert.

Sometimes a BER assessor that is willing to do the calculations with the home owner and show how the grade would change if they carried out x,y and z changes. Then allow the home owner carry out those changes, revisit the property to make sure those changes are carried out and then issue the cert is better than the cheapest or the architect.

I know an Estate Agent who is doing BER assesments, a fair number of estate agents including this one have studied to Hons BSc degree level property studies. Which includes building construction as a module in the pre requesit course as well as in all four years of the degree. Not only that but SCS and the RICS both accept this degree from the end of 3rd year as a prerequisit to start the APC to become a Chartered Surveyor. so not all estate agents are chancers.

Secondly VAT, VAT only has to be charged if the business you are planning on getting in has turnover greater than €37,500.

Now not including the start up costs (these may have been covered by a redundancy package for instance) if a BER assessor was to carry out assessments at an average price of €175 that assessor can only do 214 assessments a year without having to charge VAT.

Now the BER Assessor then has to pay SEI €30.38 (incl VAT) per assesment this makes aprox €6,500 for the 214 assesments, which allows a gross income of €31,000 now deduct expences such as travel, insurance, electricity.... and the net income could be as low as €24,000 per anum. and you still have to knock the tax off, however this is better than sitting on the dole which may be the other option considering the current market situation.

The above is assuming doing 5 assessments a week for about 43 weeks a year, which may sound nice but for every assesment carried out people have to do marketing to get the assessments in.

topcatcbr

I do not think anyone who is charging less than €200 average per cert will not be doing this too long. They will move on to something else when they realise how little it is worth to them.

€250 for half a days work may seem alot but as explained before when you take costs and advertising into account i dont believe it can be done (properly) for much less.

muffler

The bottom line here lads is that every Tom, Dick and Harry seen big bucks with all the development that was going around last year. At the time no one factored in the recession and now there is a glut of assessors.

It will be reasonable for a short while because of the existing properties but alas there are too many assessors and enough properties.

topcatcbr

muffler wrote: »

The bottom line here lads is that every Tom, Dick and Harry seen big bucks with all the development that was going around last year. At the time no one factored in the recession and now there is a glut of assessors.

It will be reasonable for a short while because of the existing properties but alas there are too many assessors and enough properties.

Tom Dick and Harry would be fine but when Larry Curly and Moe got involved this is when i started to worry.

There are too many assessors for the number of properties and many will be very disapointed with their investment when this all dies down. They might of been alot better to put their money into anglo irish shares i think.

No6

Theres currently 168,000 properties listed on Daft. Now allowing for those that don't need assessments, land, derilicts, multipal listings or ones most of the assessors cannot do yet like commercial, lets say there's 100,000 dwelling units for sale on Daft at the moment divided by the number of assessors currently registered 1200 (approx) that gives an average of 83.3 existing properties per assessor x by 200 per assessment (we'll go bargin basement here!!!!) that results in an income of only 16666 euros (note all the 6's in this figure very very dodgy:eek:, this whole BER thing is related to the devil!!!:D) not very good and as far as I can see is the properties will be on the market for without a BER until it looks like someone is really interested, (about to sign the contracts!!) then all of a sudden the vendor will look for a BER

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

Theres currently 168,000 properties listed on Daft. Now allowing for those that don't need assessments, land, derilicts, multipal listings or ones most of the assessors cannot do yet like commercial, lets say there's 100,000 dwelling units for sale on Daft at the moment divided by the number of assessors currently registered 1200 (approx) that gives an average of 83.3 existing properties per assessor x by 200 per assessment (we'll go bargin basement here!!!!) that results in an income of only 16666 euros (note all the 6's in this figure very very dodgy:eek:, this whole BER thing is related to the devil!!!:D) not very good and as far as I can see is the properties will be on the market for without a BER until it looks like someone is really interested, (about to sign the contracts!!) then all of a sudden the vendor will look for a BER

It could also be used as a get out of contract clause (I wasnt shown any BER when i was viewing the property or paying deposit) to get out of a purchase in a property loosing value.

starbelgrade

No6 wrote: »

that results in an income of only 16666 euros (note all the 6's in this figure very very dodgy:eek:, this whole BER thing is related to the devil!!!:D)

holdfast

Just got beaten with a price of 110 euro all in by guy who does not meet the min level 6 or construction background. Go SEI

sydthebeat

holdfast wrote: »

Just got beaten with a price of 110 euro all in by guy who does not meet the min level 6 or construction background. Go SEI

110 to do an existing building is ridiculous....

sinnerboy

I have a view on this - you got beaten because the client does not really understand , or accept , the value of the BER process . this will happen a lot . Hard to say a number but my gut feel is that up 80% of punters only want the label , nothing else , and want it cheap .

You won't be "beaten" in the context of a client who understands and accepts the point of BER in the first place

MicktheMan

holdfast wrote: »

who does not meet the min level 6 or construction background. Go SEI

How do you know?

sydthebeat

sinnerboy wrote: »

I have a view on this - you got beaten because the client does not really understand , or accept , the value of the BER process . this will happen a lot . Hard to say a number but my gut feel is that up 80% of punters only want the label , nothing else , and want it cheap .

You won't be "beaten" in the context of a client who understands and accepts the point of BER in the first place

unfortunately, as you know the legislation is set up in such a way that the onus is on seller to organise the label. Therefore they will only see this as a tax and an inconvienence and wont give a crap if i turned up in a milk lorry to do the assessment....

If the purchaser was to organise it, in much the same manner as a pre-purchase report.... it would be a different situation altogether.

No6

holdfast wrote: »

Just got beaten with a price of 110 euro all in by guy who does not meet the min level 6 or construction background. Go SEI

I hope he's not doing it full time that only works out at 85 euro's for him :eek: and if he divides it by 0.12762 he will get!!! thats right 666.something, the satanic conversion factor, he may not be level six but he sure is 666!!!:D Seriously though holdfast let him at it he'll be bankrupupt in no time, it unsustainable sat that level see my other posts where I've done some sums!!

sinnerboy

sydthebeat wrote: »

If the purchaser was to organise it, in much the same manner as a pre-purchase report.... it would be a different situation altogether.

Indeed Syd , this has occured to me too

Slig

unsustainable but a nice little earner on the side, whats to say he doesnt just do the BER and get back to making breakfast rolls or selling cars?

Slig

sinnerboy wrote: »

I have a view on this - you got beaten because the client does not really understand , or accept , the value of the BER process . this will happen a lot . Hard to say a number but my gut feel is that up 80% of punters only want the label , nothing else , and want it cheap .

You won't be "beaten" in the context of a client who understands and accepts the point of BER in the first place

When I was doing the course every house that we did got a different rating from different people. Some got better results simply because they measured things wrongly e.g taking a southern window that is 1050mm high as 1.5m high. The SEI checking system cannot stop the likes of this.

When I do a rating my onus is always on accuracy, I always design on the safe side of the regs, it is how I was trained and something I'm proud of. Others might not be of the same mindset and things like % energy saving light fittings etc. may be fluffed over.

What I'm trying to say is that getting a competent professional to do your cert doesnt naturally mean that you'll get a better rating and can, in fact, mean the opposite. I dont see any solution to this.

jimmmy

sydthebeat wrote: »

unfortunately, as you know the legislation is set up in such a way that the onus is on seller to organise the label. Therefore they will only see this as a tax and an inconvienence and wont give a crap if i turned up in a milk lorry to do the assessment....

Exactly. In these tough economic times, if a seller can get it for 110 euro instead of 220 then he has 110 extra in his pocket....every bit helps.

topcatcbr

Slig wrote: »

unsustainable but a nice little earner on the side, whats to say he doesnt just do the BER and get back to making breakfast rolls or selling cars?

I dont agree. see previous posts

sinnerboy

jimmmy wrote: »

Exactly. In these tough economic times, if a seller can get it for 110 euro instead of 220 then he has 110 extra in his pocket....every bit helps.

my post # 77 refers

No6

jimmmy wrote: »

Exactly. In these tough economic times, if a seller can get it for 110 euro instead of 220 then he has 110 extra in his pocket....every bit helps.

However what if the buyer decides along with the few hundred he's paying me to do a structural survey he pays me to check the ber cer he's been given and lo and behold I find its not what it should be and to be honest by the sound of things I think I will add into my services for buyers!!! The building owner may have 110 euro's more in his pocket but he may also loose a sale for the sake of it.

brianmacl

I wonder if this guy is VAT registered or not? I cant see how it is possible to charge this little while doing this a full time job without being VAT registered. At that rate he can have a gross income of €29,000 without even touching on expenses.

So if he is VAT registered he is getting €66 for this assesment. if this is the case and he does 10 a week for 48 weeks a year he will only earn about €31,500.

But then there is this wee thing called seasonal adjustment, lets face it people don't put their houses up for sale durring the last 2 weeks of july or the first 2 of August nor do they put their houses up for sale during November or December. Then there are about 3 other weeks in a year where people don't put houses up for sale. So people probably should have only assumed about 36 weeks of work per year from BER assessing in their bussiness plan.

No6

Buisness Plan?? VAT registered, I don't think so. He may not be even SEI registered and where on earth is he going to get 10 houses a week for a year (even seasonally adjusted!!!) He could of course be doing a multiple of the same house type for a single client in which case he could reduce his fees per unit or else he's just mad!!!!

muffler

brianmacl wrote: »

I wonder if this guy is VAT registered or not? I cant see how it is possible to charge this little while doing this a full time job without being VAT registered. At that rate he can have a gross income of €29,000 without even touching on expenses.

Brian you have edged your way from post to post on the same assumption every time that this assessor is doing this full time. I have previously stated and i dont see any contradictions from anyone here that the majority of the assessments will be done by way of a 2nd job or to supplement their main income.

Could you not do us a few calculations for a technician for example who is self employed and has now added the BER assessments to his portfolio. Work out some figures on that please.

brianmacl

muffler wrote: »

Brian you have edged your way from post to post on the same assumption every time that this assessor is doing this full time. I have previously stated and i dont see any contradictions from anyone here that the majority of the assessments will be done by way of a 2nd job or to supplement their main income.

Could you not do us a few calculations for a technician for example who is self employed and has now added the BER assessments to his portfolio. Work out some figures on that please.

Firstly in the Greater Dublin Area I think that there are going to be a number of full time assessors that are sole traders, this seems to be one of the most cost effective moddels. The other two options are Surveyors, Architects, Estate Agents carrying it out as an additional service provided by there business, I feel that this may be the least cost effective model and then proffessionals who are employed full time and then do this as a side line. The problem is that the start up cost to do this properly is slightly restrictive.

As these start up costs have been discussed already I will not mention it further. but I will assume that any additional work carried out is taxed at 41% + extras further more that the person has to carry out at least 10-15 at this price before covering annual costs such as, insurance and €121.50 reg fees, this means that for every cert beyond the 15th he is taking home somewhere in the region of €40.

Now lets look at the idea that he is working for 40 weeks a year doing 2 certs a week fitted around his full time job. his additinonal income for that year will be €2,600... not that much for 40 days of extra work and start up fees that far out way that amount.