BER Cert cost?

brianmacl

No6 wrote: »

Buisness Plan?? VAT registered, I don't think so. He may not be even SEI registered and where on earth is he going to get 10 houses a week for a year (even seasonally adjusted!!!) He could of course be doing a multiple of the same house type for a single client in which case he could reduce his fees per unit or else he's just mad!!!!

I am in agreement with you. My above post just points out that it is impossible to put together a business plan at those numbers, asuming they are his average price. I have also posted bellow looking at the idea this is a second job. Surely people doing BER Assessment should have a high standard of Maths. this guys clearly doesn't

jimmmy

brianmacl wrote: »

So if he is VAT registered he is getting €66 for this assesment. if this is the case and he does 10 a week for 48 weeks a year he will only earn about €31,500.

Not everyone is, or has a high enough turnover yet, to be vat registered.
If someone does ten jobs a week @ 110, thats 55,000 euro per year turnover.....he will say thats a nice little earner in these tough times. If he done 15 certs a week thats over 82 grand.
At that level of turnover he will have to pay vat I think. However, someone did mention he may receive commissions or kickbacks for recommending insulation or double glazing companies etc. I am not saying that is how I look at it, I am not saying he or others are correct ; I am saying that is how some others may look at it.

brianmacl

jimmmy wrote: »

Not everyone is, or has a high enough turnover yet, to be vat registered.
If someone does ten jobs a week @ 110, thats 55,000 euro per year turnover.....he will say thats a nice little earner in these tough times. If he done 15 certs a week thats over 82 grand.
At that level of turnover he will have to pay vat I think. However, someone did mention he may receive commissions or kickbacks for recommending insulation or double glazing companies etc. I am not saying that is how I look at it, I am not saying he or others are correct ; I am saying that is how some others may look at it.

Firstly if the anticipated turn over is €37,500 the person should be VAT registered.

Secondly of the €110, just over €30 goes to the SEI

Also as I stated earlier, there is a wee thing called seasonal adjustment, basically I would suggest that there may only be about 40 weeks worth of work per year.

I cannot see how anyone could make money from only charging €110 per assessment. I have looked at the three different ways I can see that this business could be run properly, and in each case charging that little would leave a person with a tiny income

sydthebeat

jimmmy wrote: »

Not everyone is, or has a high enough turnover yet, to be vat registered.
If someone does ten jobs a week @ 110, thats 55,000 euro per year turnover.....he will say thats a nice little earner in these tough times. If he done 15 certs a week thats over 82 grand.
At that level of turnover he will have to pay vat I think. However, someone did mention he may receive commissions or kickbacks for recommending insulation or double glazing companies etc. I am not saying that is how I look at it, I am not saying he or others are correct ; I am saying that is how some others may look at it.

lets be honest here... NO ONE IS DOING 10 BERs A WEEK...

even with the current backlog of houses for sale / rent these figures are simply not happening.

And in say 6 months time when the back log is clear, there will be alot less, possible 50-60% less assessments required to be done.

with the high 90,000 house finishes a thing of the past.... we will only be looking at possibly 30,000 house finishes this year and possibly less from here on. Assume at least 50% of these are owner occupier rural dwellings (which we will keep out of these calcs for reasons i can go into after).. thats 15,000 a year, divide by 1000 assessors = 15 assessments per year (or slightly over 1 a month). You can try to put as optimistic a rental market as you like on top of that, but remember that once rental properties have a BER its valid for 10 years. so you may get possible 1 rental BER a month.......

I believe these calcs are the stark reality of this system.

I can see many assessors never covering the initial costs......

topcatcbr

With the average BER taking 4 hrs (including travel) that equates to 2 a day for five days is 10. If you are doing more than this you are working too hard. Take a break and charge more.

ruskin

I think any homeowner wants their BER cert for the cheapest possible price. Ive heard some assessors are charging 200-275 euro for a cert. This is daylight robbery and complete extortion. There are reasonable assessors out there, who will charge 75-150 euro, buyers just have to really shop around.

sinnerboy

ruskin wrote: »

I think any homeowner wants their BER cert for the cheapest possible price. Ive heard some assessors are charging 200-275 euro for a cert. This is daylight robbery and complete extortion. There are reasonable assessors out there, who will charge 75-150 euro, buyers just have to really shop around.

post 77 refers ....

brianmacl

ruskin wrote: »

I think any homeowner wants their BER cert for the cheapest possible price. Ive heard some assessors are charging 200-275 euro for a cert. This is daylight robbery and complete extortion. There are reasonable assessors out there, who will charge 75-150 euro, buyers just have to really shop around.

I presume you are taking the mick!!

I have looked at the 3 diif ways of running this properly and I cannot see how someone could really do a cert for less than €175 if they are doing them properly and running to a bussiness plan, even assuming they are willing to earn as little as €24 k per year.

I would like to see these "Assessors" bussiness plan, insurance, qualification and I would like to see them still going in about a year so that all the mistakes they have made and people they have mislead can come back, and they can be sued to bits

ruskin

brianmacl wrote: »

I presume you are taking the mick!!

I have looked at the 3 diif ways of running this properly and I cannot see how someone could really do a cert for less than €175 if they are doing them properly and running to a bussiness plan, even assuming they are willing to earn as little as €24 k per year.

I would like to see these "Assessors" bussiness plan, insurance, qualification and I would like to see them still going in about a year so that all the mistakes they have made and people they have mislead can come back, and they can be sued to bits

There are many qualified assessors out there, holding the correct insurance, who perform assessments in addition to their day job. Since these assessors do not fully rely on assessments for their only income, naturally they can charge well below the high prices of some. Its in everyones interests to shop around.

Slig

The way I see it, and I'm open to correction, is this:

There are lots of assessors out there but not alot of BERs needing doing
The actual overheads needed to get started are extortionate.
Training €1500 - 2500
SEI Registration €1000 (€500 every year after that)
PI Insurance €800 - €1000
(There are also other expenses like computer, paper, broadband, time, etc. but I'm not counting this)

All of the above are needed to complete a BER assessment, however, I dont think there is anybody doing more than 1 or 2 per week (I have never been asked to do one)

Obviously just by those figures alone the rate is going to be high if only to cover costs. Anybody that can afford to do them for less than €100 is obviously doing great marketing and will eventually price the higher players out of the market but by cheapening the BER you are also cheapening the service. Nobody is going to care much about a lable that only costs €80, it will eventually become a paper exercise where the assessor sits at home and just fills in the blanks with whats "probably" there.

ruskin

Slig, A BER from a competant Assessor is legitmate, regardless of price

gpjordanf1

Slig wrote: »

The way I see it, and I'm open to correction, is this:

There are lots of assessors out there but not alot of BERs needing doing
The actual overheads needed to get started are extortionate.
Training €1500 - 2500
SEI Registration €1000 (€500 every year after that)
PI Insurance €800 - €1000
(There are also other expenses like computer, paper, broadband, time, etc. but I'm not counting this)

All of the above are needed to complete a BER assessment, however, I dont think there is anybody doing more than 1 or 2 per week (I have never been asked to do one)

Obviously just by those figures alone the rate is going to be high if only to cover costs. Anybody that can afford to do them for less than €100 is obviously doing great marketing and will eventually price the higher players out of the market but by cheapening the BER you are also cheapening the service. Nobody is going to care much about a lable that only costs €80, it will eventually become a paper exercise where the assessor sits at home and just fills in the blanks with whats "probably" there.

The costs aren't that much!

Training €1000 - 1500
SEI Registration €1000+VAT (€100 every year after that)
PI Insurance €300 - €800

I'm just after registering and have paid no more than above.

Also I cant see how anyone can do a BER cert competently for under €175.

Slig

ruskin wrote: »

Slig, A BER from a competant Assessor is legitmate, regardless of price

I'm not debating that, If it was up to me and I knew nothing about the process you can be damn sure I'd be looking for the cheapest price possible.
Even now I dont think I could justify paying what I know to be a realistic fee (€250 - €300) when the result is equally valid.

Why is it that people will pay for a cheap BER survey but still not buy own brand groceries?

topcatcbr

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

The costs aren't that much!

Training €1000 - 1500
SEI Registration €1000+VAT (€100 every year after that)
PI Insurance €300 - €800

I'm just after registering and have paid no more than above.

Also I cant see how anyone can do a BER cert competently for under €175.

I just checked two major providors.

Both around €2,000 combined course.

Training: When I did it it was €1800 for new dwellings. and then €600 add on for existing.

The other costs i agree with.
By the way you also need PL insurance.
If you got PI and PL for €300 can you PM me the provider please.

I also agree with your last statement.

Slig

topcatcbr wrote: »

I just checked two major providors.

Both around €2,000 combined course.

Training: When I did it it was €1800 for new dwellings. and then €600 add on for existing.

The other costs i agree with.
By the way you also need PL insurance.
If you got PI and PL for €300 can you PM me the provider please.

I also agree with your last statement.

Sorry about the inaccuracies in the figures but I think the argument is still valid

Same situation with the training, I'm sure its cheaper now but it was 2K for the original course and €600 for the existing buildings.
Sorry about the SEI price I forgot vat and I dont know where I got €500?
As for the PI I'm going on what was quoted here, the boss pays the PI.

topcatcbr

I quoted today for a rural dormer dwelling for €350 inc SEI fee. I was undercut by someone who is charging €200 inc SEI fee. Now for those who dont know a dormer is the hardest house to survey and will take about 2.5 hrs onsite. Then go back to office and do calculations and publish cert. Approx 1.5 hrs. Travel time allow 1 hr.

This is approx 5 hrs work. Most people will not do much more than 5 hrs work a day if they are honest with themselves. I know if i took this job on i would be unlikly to anything constructive for the rest of the day (which is why you wouldnt expect to get paid as much from an employer as your employer would charge for your time). So take the SEI fee out of this it comes to €170 for the best part of a day.

Personaly if that is all i was to charge for my time i would be better off doing something else (like going to the pub). This is exactly what if done and refused the work.

Now without repeating myself and reciting the expenses and setting up costs I dont think my competition has thought this through. Maybee these people are pricing as a result of getting no work for so long they will do it at a loss to gain experience. I dont know but I think now is a great time for those who need this done because i dont see it remaining this cheep for too long.

When these assessors realise they can earn more money doing other things with their time they will put a higher value on it. By then i expect the auctioneers will be in on the game and to be honest they are welcome to it.

jimmmy

ruskin wrote: »

There are many qualified assessors out there, holding the correct insurance, who perform assessments in addition to their day job. Since these assessors do not fully rely on assessments for their only income, naturally they can charge well below the high prices of some. Its in everyones interests to shop around.

Good point. Lots of self employed people are having to take much less than they would like to now, and I know some ( in other fields ) who are now having to rely on savings just to survive. About one hour was all it took for someone I know to do a cert and yet he charged plenty ( 150 ) for it, but people creaming it like that will not last.

holdfast

About one hour was all it took for someone I know to do a cert and yet he charged plenty ( 150 ) for it, but people creaming it like that will not last.

People will charge what they want and I will charge my rate and that is the free market. But if a cert was done in an hour that guy should be reported to SEI and the idiots that hired him should be informed of the gross neglect and total lack of professionalism on his part. It was that kind of unprofessionalism that was not controlled in the banks and see where that got us. You owe it to yourself and to the people that hired him. They could be selling their house to a young couple for an extra 10 grand because of that. Don’t think its just a piece of paper. It is fraud

I was part of the HESS scheme and it took around five hours at min. I felt even at that the way SEI had set it up, it was not enough time to get from the getting a figure in the ball park to on to the field. Most people in this forum agree on that time to complete a BER. Penny dropping now any one doing in an hour is your local cowboy

I think you are winding people up with such comments

Rant over

muffler

holdfast wrote: »

and the idiots that hired him

Thats a bit uncalled for.

topcatcbr

It may appear to take an hour. This is about right for the time spent onsite for a straight forward house. But the calculations then have to be done and this usually takes at least another hour.
I agree with holdfast. You need to allow for 4 hrs in total for each home. Some will take more others less.

sydthebeat

to be perfectly honest i did a mid terrace 90m2 2-storey house last week and i had the on-site work done in 25 mins.... and i did not skrimp...

the data input and publishing time was about 45mins....

but i did another house the following day.... 120 m2 single storey and the on-site work too 1 hr 20mins...

it all depends on the information thats available on site....

topcatcbr

I still allow at least 1hrs per assessment onsite. It usually does not take this long but you can not be sure and if you get cought out on the first it means you will be late for second. You do get alot quicker at them but you have to allow for worst case senario.

topcatcbr

I did two today. one being a 2bed appt the other a 3bed semi. The appt took approx 1 hr onsite while the house took approx 45 min.

I went into the house where the children followed me around the house with the youngest (about 2yrs) hitting me and the eldest (about 7) taking things out of my survey bag eg disto to see lazer working. it was the same landlord but properties were about 30min apart. The Appart tennant was in cork (Appart in dublin) and despite being asked for ESB bill she left nothing out had to chase this up when she got home and found one. so even though it might take 1 or 1,5 hrs to do avg survey and same to do data imput it is more accurate to allow for 4 hrs per assessment.

brianmacl

jimmmy wrote: »

Good point. Lots of self employed people are having to take much less than they would like to now, and I know some ( in other fields ) who are now having to rely on savings just to survive. About one hour was all it took for someone I know to do a cert and yet he charged plenty ( 150 ) for it, but people creaming it like that will not last.

I don't think a full assessment can be carried out in one hour. Maybe he did a survey only in that amount of time but then there are calculations and and data input. All in all an Assessor may be spending up to 4 hours per assessment.

Now this means that some one doing good assessments (and I believe there is a difference and people will get what they pay for) will be doing about 2 a day. Hence as a part time job an assessor may look at doing 2 a week. There are probably 40 weeks of year were people will be able to get work (seasonal adjustment... eaxplained earlier) and anual expenses of €1,500 (insurance €850, SEI reg after yr 1 €100, web site, mobile phone).

So you end up with 80 assessments, and to break even in any given year you have to take in about €1,500 (I haven't even counted start up costs). For Every BER cert SEI take €30, so your example of €150 (which was described "plenty") leaving the assessor €120 per job. which means the first 13 or so will cover the expenses which leave 66 which translates to less than €8k, then you have to get your accounts done and pay tax. If you end up with €3,500 in your pocket at the end of the year you will be doing well.

Would anyone be happy with an extra €3,500 for working every Saturday of the year (for every job you do you have to spend time marketing yourself) and considering if you count in your start up fees you won't make any money for the first year. plus it is a really big risk, you may not make nearly the amount you were thinking and you could even loose some.


so NO €150 is NOT "plenty" and doing it part time for an extra income does NOT mean that you can charge WAY LESS than people doing it full time

No6

brianmacl wrote: »

so NO €150 is NOT "plenty" and doing it part time for an extra income does NOT mean that you can charge WAY LESS than people doing it full time

If you pay penuts you get monkey's!!!, was that 150 plus bananas!!:D

Slig

There are plenty of people justifying facts and figures but at the end of the day

What is the end result?
Is it worth the customer paying extra for an assessment?
Will a professional survey/assment get a better end result for the client?

No6

Slig wrote: »

There are plenty of people justifying facts and figures but at the end of the day

What is the end result?
Is it worth the customer paying extra for an assessment?
Will a professional survey/assment get a better end result for the client?

Judging by a number of posts on both this and other forum's I would demand a copy of the assessors construction qualifications first!! I would say a professional survey will give you a more accurate assessment and it will most likey get a better result for the purchaser / leassor, ie if its a crap rating they can go elsewhere!!!:D

Red Camel

No6 wrote: »

Judging by a number of posts on both this and other forum's I would demand a copy of the assessors construction qualifications first!!...

Would these be the construction qualifications of the people involved in building tens of thousands of poor quality houses over the last 15 years?

Slig

No6 wrote: »

Judging by a number of posts on both this and other forum's I would demand a copy of the assessors construction qualifications first!! I would say a professional survey will give you a more accurate assessment and it will most likey get a better result for the purchaser / leassor, ie if its a crap rating they can go elsewhere!!!:D

That is the conclusion that I came to. Obviously the more accurate the rating the better it is for the purchaser. As its the vendor thats responsible for getting the survey carried out it is not in their interrest to get the most accurate rating, its to get the best rating (and from what I know of the programme best accuracy does not equal best result.)

So the conclusion I would come to is that along with the snag/structural survey the potential purchaser should also budget for a BER cert. The result between the 2 will inevitably be different which
A: Will provide bargaining power for the purchaser
B: Could incourage the vendor to get an accurate survey done in the first place
C: Give SEI a bit of help weeding the crop of BER assessors

No6

You could be spot on there slig!!!