New DanceMusicIreland forum

Phier

Just started.

http://www.dancemusicireland.net

Due to the dancemusicireland.com mods being Nazis.

L1011

I would suspect that starting a new forum with the *exact same name* as another, bar the .tld, is a very very bad idea...

Executive Steve

not really - the original dancemusicireland.com was originally located at clubbing-ie.com after a mass exodus of clubbing.com users due to a sudden and complete change in moderation policies.

Helix

MYOB wrote: »

I would suspect that starting a new forum with the *exact same name* as another, bar the .tld, is a very very bad idea...

i dunno, a dance music website focussing on dance music in ireland, dancemusicireland seems a fair enough domain name, but the .com one was gone

i own h3lx.com since that was my production/dj name for years, and theres also h3lx.net, but i dont think id win any sort of case against the owner of that, nor would it be arsed trying

i hear in the pipeline that theres a rebranding on the way tho if it takes off

i also hear that the owner of dancemusicireland.net has had no contact from anyone from the .com site requesting a name change or outlining concerns

L1011

I don't think you're doing exactly the same thing as the owner of h3lx.net though, are you? Or anything close, looking at their site.

These are both forums, both using basically the same name. Major difference. In law its known as "passing off" here...

Helix

surely itd have to be proven that one is trying to use its name to pry users from the other, when thats not the case. the .com one managed to get rid of the users all by itself

the .net one is also hosted and registered in sweden if that makes any odds

L1011

Sweden is known for rather liberal laws on what you can do on the net there; but it is also in the EU (most cases that die there are because its US interests coming after them).

And no, passing off doesn't need any proof that you're deliberately TRYING to steal users/customers/whatever; just that theres enough similiarity that people may get confused. Look at the Jacobs vs. McVities case over the rough packaging design of biscuit packets - the courts decided that cause they looked enough alike, people might confuse them; and Jacobs was there first.

Its dodgy legally and its also a bit childish to go for the same name - something new would let it build its own reputation.

Helix

i dont think it was trying to build its own reputation

it was a place for everyone who wanted to jump ship from .com due to severly bad management

L1011

...which makes using the name of the original site even worse - its trying to serve members from the old site; and that IS passing off. Whether they were 'driven out' or not.

fionntang

any bruised bodies from the fall out can come join a new family on www.irishclubbing.ie

there is definitely no censorship over our way (provided its not child porn or the likes)

tman

If IGN.ie can get away with it, I reckon you guys should be safe:p

Helix

MYOB wrote: »

...which makes using the name of the original site even worse - its trying to serve members from the old site; and that IS passing off. Whether they were 'driven out' or not.

ive just been informed that theres nothing the .com crowd can do about this. if it was .ie, they most certainly could, but since theyre .com and im .net, theres very little that can be done

any truth to that?

L1011

Helix wrote: »

ive just been informed that theres nothing the .com crowd can do about this. if it was .ie, they most certainly could, but since theyre .com and im .net, theres very little that can be done

any truth to that?

Absolutely none. What TLD is in use is irrelevant to jurastiction of law, etc.

The term 'dancemusicireland' is a defacto trademark, and its use in their logo has also been accompanied with a (c) mark, making it a defacto copyright. These cover it to a certain extent against use within the EU against use by anyone else in the same sectors.

Also, I notice the forum has now changed to "im" there - yet you were talking about 'the owner' as if it was someone else. I also notice an identical name and address on its and your domain registration...

Helix

funny that innit

Helix

MYOB wrote: »

The term 'dancemusicireland' is a defacto trademark

re this: im 99% sure its the term dancemusicireland.com which is trademarked, not dancemusicireland

L1011

...bit weird to talk about yourself in the third person, don't you think?

It'd cost a few euro to avoid any potential threatening of solicitors, et al, down the road. Can get a .net domain for 6 quid; as you've clearly got experience with.

L1011

Helix wrote: »

re this: im 99% sure its the term dancemusicireland.com which is trademarked, not dancemusicireland

Neither of them is trademarked, there is a legal concept of a defacto trademark.

There is also the concept of 'trademark similarity' - I wouldn't be allowed go start a change of shops called Centro for instance. European trademark law is ridiculously strict in this regard.

Helix

MYOB wrote: »

Neither of them is trademarked, there is a legal concept of a defacto trademark.

There is also the concept of 'trademark similarity' - I wouldn't be allowed go start a change of shops called Centro for instance.

no but im not selling anything, or advertising anything, or making money from anything

this is just a private, personal website amongst friends

L1011

Helix wrote: »

no but im not selling anything, or advertising anything, or making money from anything

this is just a private, personal website amongst friends

And none of that has any legal weight.

Changing the name will cost you a few quid, save any potential hassle, and stop you looking like a vindictive kid.

Also, the .com has the potential to be making money - merchandise and ads - so passing off could impact their trade.

Helix

MYOB wrote: »

And none of that has any legal weight.

Changing the name will cost you a few quid, save any potential hassle, and stop you looking like a vindictive kid.

i havent been asked to change it by anyone affiliated wth dancemusicireland.com tho, nor would i do so until requested to do so by a solicitors letter, at which point i would gladly desist with using the name

L1011

Seeing as the domain was registered TODAY, thats not very surprising.

Registrar of Record: TUCOWS, INC.
Record last updated on 07-Jan-2009.
Record expires on 07-Jan-2010.
Record created on 07-Jan-2009.

seannash

MYOB wrote: »

Absolutely none. What TLD is in use is irrelevant to jurastiction of law, etc.

The term 'dancemusicireland' is a defacto trademark, and its use in their logo has also been accompanied with a (c) mark, making it a defacto copyright. These cover it to a certain extent against use within the EU against use by anyone else in the same sectors.

Also, I notice the forum has now changed to "im" there - yet you were talking about 'the owner' as if it was someone else. I also notice an identical name and address on its and your domain registration...

i was going to buy a domain name for myself.seannash.com was taken but i could get seannash.net.now if i got that do you think the people at seannash.com could take me to court?
dancemusicireland isnt a highly imaginative name.i dont think the fella will have a problem.
anyway ill be staying on both for the time being:D

seannash

Helix wrote: »

i havent been asked to change it by anyone affiliated wth dancemusicireland.com tho, nor would i do so until requested to do so by a solicitors letter, at which point i would gladly desist with using the name

shouldnt have out that up,someone from the other site will no doubt read it and just send you a letter to have you change it,even if they dont have a leg to stand on

L1011

First major difference is that is your own name (I presume!). Trademark law mostly goes out the window when it comes to personal names.

Second major difference is that seannash.com is a domain squat page which would have no defined role or business.

So, no - go for it.

seannash

MYOB wrote: »

First major difference is that is your own name (I presume!). Trademark law mostly goes out the window when it comes to personal names.

Second major difference is that seannash.com is a domain squat page which would have no defined role or business.

So, no - go for it.

cool

Helix

so if i go and buy say, boards.info today, will boards.ie be able to stop me using it? if its a forum?

L1011

Helix wrote: »

so if i go and buy say, boards.info today, will boards.ie be able to stop me using it? if its a forum?

'boards' is a very generic term; however with a long-standing Irish Ltd company of "boards.ie limited" they'd have an extremely strong case.

'dancemusicireland' isn't anywhere near as generic.

The first one would probably require legal wrangling if it went up to the courts as passing off or went to WIPO as domain squatting; the second one is open and shut.

Helix

MYOB wrote: »

'dancemusicireland' isn't anywhere near as generic.

not even for an irish dance music site no?

heres another one for you, i write for game.ie, which... wait for it... isnt owned by game, why havent they swooped to take it off us?

L1011

Helix wrote: »

not even for an irish dance music site no?

heres another one for you, i write for game.ie, which... wait for it... isnt owned by game, why havent they swooped to take it off us?

Not when theres already another Irish dance music site trading under the same name, its not.

Also, game.ie doesn't look like a high street computer game store's website now does it? Its only barely in the same sector; and clearly GAME - who barely seem to realise they have stores in Ireland at times, and who brand all their in-store signage, bags, etc with a .co.uk domain haven't felt strongly enough to even chance their arm to go after it. Due to them being very, very different things there is no case that people would be confused between one and the other.

Two forums serving an identical market with identical names bar the tld is entirely different. That it is specifically set up for former users of the other site adds intent to the passing off.

Helix

MYOB wrote: »

Due to them being very, very different things there is no case that people would be confused between one and the other.

youd be very surprised at some of the emails we get if you think nobody could possibly thing we have nothing to do wth game

MYOB wrote: »

Two forums serving an identical market with identical names bar the tld is entirely different. That it is specifically set up for former users of the other site adds intent to the passing off.

The law of passing off prevents one person from misrepresenting his or her goods or services as being the goods and services of the claimant, and also prevents one person from holding out his or her goods or services as having some association or connection with the plaintiff when this is not true.

neither of those apply, since dmi.net does neither

L1011

Nice Wikipedia quote there. Not in any way accurate for how the law works in Ireland, by the way.

Passing off here covers creating a situation - intentionally or not - whereby people may become confused as to the provence of two mostly identical products.

Two dance music forums targetting Ireland falls entirely under this.

KevIRL

Fair play to Pete for standing up to the DMI opressors. Who do they think they are? Boards mods?

Helix

MYOB wrote: »

Nice Wikipedia quote there. Not in any way accurate for how the law works in Ireland, by the way.

Passing off here covers creating a situation - intentionally or not - whereby people may become confused as to the provence of two mostly identical products.

Two dance music forums targetting Ireland falls entirely under this.

mines not a product, its not for sale, its not there for anything commercial, its not a service, its not goods

clearly nobody would become confused between the 2, bearing in mind the fact that the only people using .net are people who originated on .com

how about a big banner at the top saying that its in no way affiliated with dmi.com, would that keep you happy?

i honestly, dont think theyd have a hope in hell of winning any action against the .net site, since theyre at completely different ends of the spectrum in terms of visibility.

but ill ask one of the solicitors in work what they think tomorrow just to see what they say

L1011

Websites are seen as services = same difference as being a 'product' when it comes down to it.

Once the site starts to get Google hits, which being linked to in large threads off other popular forums will certainly assist, there becomes much opportunity for confusion.

Its not a case of making me 'happy', its a case of avoiding getting taken offline. I seriously doubt a banner will make much difference legally, due to the fact that there is quite clear intent to pass off in giving the site such a name. Those kind of disclaimers are mostly of use where accidental confusion has occured. This is far from accidental.

Helix

MYOB wrote: »

Wthere is quite clear intent to pass off in giving the site such a name

theres not tho

right, dancemusicireland.com are a registered company in ireland, so theyre entitled to the .ie domain, but theyre not entitled to the .net one

L1011

They're not a registered company in Ireland. And the matter of 'entitlement' to the domain is irrelevant. Who's feeding you this misinformation?

"entitlement" to domains is a matter entirely out of our legal system. Its handled by WIPO. Famed here for this case: http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/case.jsp?case=D2000-0667

What you're doing is against Irish and EU copyright laws, NOT anything to do with domain registration.

Creating a site with an almost identical name designed for former users of the site you have the almost identical name to IS intent to pass off, no matter how well you have yourself convinced.

Helix

MYOB wrote: »

They're not a registered company in Ireland. And the matter of 'entitlement' to the domain is irrelevant. Who's feeding you this misinformation?

"entitlement" to domains is a matter entirely out of our legal system. Its handled by WIPO. Famed here for this case: http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/case.jsp?case=D2000-0667

What you're doing is against Irish and EU copyright laws, NOT anything to do with domain registration

ok, you cant possibly compare the bertie ahearn websites with this lol

the owner of those sites had no legit claim to use them, and irish dance music website DOES have a legit claim to dancemusicireland.net

an interesting sidenote in this is that 6 years ago, clubbing.com started acting up like dmi.com did this week, the users left and clubbing-ie.com (another forum) started up. it later became dancemusicireland.com because someone registered clubbing.ie, again another irish dance music forum

at no stage in any of that, did anyone have any copyright law upheld to make someone give up a domain, i strongly doubt its about to start now

the website name stays as it is

L1011

I wasn't comparing it; I was using it as an example of what 'entitlement' to domains refers to. As entitlement is irrelevant entirely in this case.

"clubbing-ie.com" is noticeably different to clubbing.com. I also can't remember the chronology but I think clubbing.com had gone by the time Tom started up clubbing.ie; seeing as clubbingdotcom the magazine fell off the face of the earth in about 2002?

Neither is the same as using the SAME domain name except for the TLD.

And copyright law wouldn't "make you give up a domain", it'd make you cease 'trading' with that name - e.g. take the site down. Domain ownership is not in the realm of the courts here. You can own that domain all you want, but to use it for what you're using it for is whats dodgy.

L1011

hit archive.org there, clubbing.ie used to be owned by clubbing.com until they 'went away' so its impossible that clubbing.ie co-existed with it.

Nothing to prevent trademark necrophilia assuming the original owners haven't defended the trademark - look at Packard Bell computers; named after a radio maker that hit the wall 20 years earlier.

Helix

i shall continue to use it for what im using it for until requested to do otherwise then so, because i strongly doubt i ever will be

L1011

Taking this to an entirely offline level:

Would you get away with starting a newsagents for disaffected customers of the one next door called "Spur"? Would you get away with starting a garage for pissed off drivers of the one down the road called "Mixol". You wouldn't even consider it.

Neurojazz

The original .com owners would have the rights in intellectual terms, but would be very costly to get the other domain to close - BUT, there are organisations that deal with these sorts of issues with domains and parking - it's down to who owns the intellectual property (as in the idea and concept) and for them to send the complaint to the internet watchdog to sort it out legally to show that they set the entity (regardless of the .tv,.com or anything)

seannash

MYOB wrote: »

Taking this to an entirely offline level:

Would you get away with starting a newsagents for disaffected customers of the one next door called "Spur"? Would you get away with starting a garage for pissed off drivers of the one down the road called "Mixol". You wouldn't even consider it.

ha ha ha ha,what if you also sold cowboy boots in spur.
sorry that made me lol,:D:D

L1011

seannash wrote: »

ha ha ha ha,what if you also sold cowboy boots in spur.
sorry that made me lol,:D:D

my local Spar's run by a bunch of cowboys (7.99 for four chicken fillets!!), so they could claim prior art

Ddisco

MYOB wrote: »

Taking this to an entirely offline level:

Would you get away with starting a newsagents for disaffected customers of the one next door called "Spur"? Would you get away with starting a garage for pissed off drivers of the one down the road called "Mixol". You wouldn't even consider it.

My mate had a Video shop called "Xtra Movie Busters" - classic!!

L1011

Ddisco wrote: »

My mate had a Video shop called "Xtra Movie Busters" - classic!!

different enough to ensure nobody could come after him, hrm, tempted to set up a site called "danceclubbingnationeireforum" now

Ddisco

He managed to piss off Xtra vision , movie magic , and chartbusters in one swoop!!

Phier

MYOB wrote: »

First major difference is that is your own name (I presume!). Trademark law mostly goes out the window when it comes to personal names.

Second major difference is that seannash.com is a domain squat page which would have no defined role or business.

So, no - go for it.

Aye, remember:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MikeRoweSoft.com

?

p4ddyv

ahem :rolleyes:

L1011

Phier wrote: »

Aye, remember:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MikeRoweSoft.com

?

Yer man's response of asking for ten grand was what really caused that to go to WIPO even though he was in the right (although 'soft' wasn't part of his name its a very common suffix for IT firms/interests worldwide, pre-Microsoft even - they didn't think of the idea!)

pallepille

sorry to jump in here at such a late stage but that dancemusicireland.com is that not the one thats owned by them two nice wee dj's. Wat the fcuk happened, never really used that (n ive got limited internet here wen im in work) but I thought it was one of the good ones. Sounds like lots o people aint happy