Is Darts a Sport and Should it be at the Olympics?

ratinakeg

premierstone wrote: »

Well i can only speak for myself but i never suggested that darts isnt a sport, what i argued was it should not be an olympic sport, its a patethic attempt from the UK to win what they perceive as soft medals

I'm sure he's not aiming this at you, It did in all fairness go really off topic (me and probably you included). We should actually invite our good friends on the poker threads to a dual (darts only), now that would be fun.

ArmaniJeanss

premierstone wrote: »

Well i can only speak for myself but i never suggested that darts isnt a sport, what i argued was it should not be an olympic sport, its a patethic attempt from the UK to win what they perceive as soft medals

I don't think its an attempt by the UK Olympic committee to win medals. As I understand it they are entitled to include an extra sport as an 'exhibition' sport if they want, so if this was driven by the UK Olympic Committee it would already be a fair accompli.
I think the people who reckon its a PDC plan to help them crack America probably have it nailed.

Ste05

ratinakeg wrote: »

I'm sure he's not aiming this at you, It did in all fairness go really off topic (me and probably you included). We should actually invite our good friends on the poker threads to a dual (darts only), now that would be fun.

LOL, the lads are currently in the middle of organising a soccer match against the soccer forum and there seems to be a fair few Poker lads who are mad into the Darts based on our OT thread, so I'd say if you actually wanted this, you could probably get it set up.

Although maybe not, who knows... be interesting nonetheless.

dionsiseire

phantom_lord wrote: »

ok, i'll challenge u to a hu poker game, a darts tournament, and a 60 shot air rifle match. 1 point for each competition, and i'll give u 3/1 on your money. the only one of those that requires skill according to you is darts, i can count on one hand the number of times i've played it, should be easy money!





lol, u clearly know nothing if you dismiss dressage just like that. u have no idea of the amount of skill and work required.

i didnt say they didnt require Skill i said they dont require FITNESS

also i would probably win that 3-0

dionsiseire

Ste05 wrote: »

Firstly, really enjoyable thread, I must say I dionsiseire, when he said that diving and synchronised swimming required no fitness, I literally LOL'ed, classic stuff, I assume he's a troll but a really entertaining poster nonetheless...

Glad i could put a smile to your face

Clearly the people participating at olympic level are actually physically fit people, what i was saying was that you dont technically have to be fit to swim syncronously for 5 minutes, you might look terrible doing it but you dont have to be a specimen of human engineering. Diving as well, if i had the technical ability for the dive, i wouldnt need to be on the ab roller every night and doing a job around the corner, my moderate physical attributes would do the business

Similarly a fat person can play darts, but both the fit and not fit can play, doesnt mean that all of the above and previously mentioned sports or games including poker dont require some level of skill

That said, it is surely fair to say i have more chance of getting lucky and beating the devil fish with luck than beating phil taylor in a first to 5 sets match.

dionsiseire

Mellor wrote: »

You example only makes darts look like a some-what new sport. Its current form is much newer and besides, many sports pre-date the middles ages by over 1000 years.

It Also must have been a bleedin huge board :cool:

5starpool

Ste05 wrote: »

LOL, the lads are currently in the middle of organising a soccer match against the soccer forum and there seems to be a fair few Poker lads who are mad into the Darts based on our OT thread, so I'd say if you actually wanted this, you could probably get it set up.

Although maybe not, who knows... be interesting nonetheless.

The main difference being that we are mostly armchair fans. I am rubbish at darts, but like watching it and most of the others on the poker forum who talk about darts would be the same, except for Gary maybe.

As for the sports thing, I would think darts is a sport. Sport doesn't have to leave you physically knackered at the end. It is played on a competitive level enough to be a sport imo. The olympic thing is different, but I see notinhg wrong with getting it included in the 2012 Olympics. A lot of host countries introduces a sport or 2 that would not have been in it before, and may not be again, with Barcelona introducing that mad game with the long couty, hard ball, and corved attachments on their arm for throwing it. I can't remember it right now, but I'm sure some of you know what I am on about.

Rented Mule

dionsiseire wrote: »

Glad i could put a smile to your face

Clearly the people participating at olympic level are actually physically fit people, what i was saying was that you dont technically have to be fit to swim syncronously for 5 minutes, you might look terrible doing it but you dont have to be a specimen of human engineering. Diving as well, if i had the technical ability for the dive, i wouldnt need to be on the ab roller every night and doing a job around the corner, my moderate physical attributes would do the business

Similarly a fat person can play darts, but both the fit and not fit can play, doesnt mean that all of the above and previously mentioned sports or games including poker dont require some level of skill

That said, it is surely fair to say i have more chance of getting lucky and beating the devil fish with luck than beating phil taylor in a first to 5 sets match.

As an avid darter, who was one hell of a swimmer in his day, I have nothing but the highest respect for syncro swimmers. Those ladies are absolutely amazing at what they do.

I have also known quite a few divers who should have been highly competitive sprinters (50 and 100) .

There is no point tearing down one sport to try and enhance your own. Try to find the similarities in the sports that are already Oly sports to try and make your point.

My only problem with some of the sports is that they are 'judged' which puts too much emphasis on other people to decide a winner which brings in too much politics and prejudices.

dionsiseire

I aint tearing it down, im trying to say that being a physical specimen isnt an essential part of diving off a board, a generally thin bloke with the prerequisite skill could surely dive as good as a guy who runs a mini marathon and spends years in the gym as well as having the required skill

Isnt skill normally the factor that seperates the men from the boys

Dont get me wrong like, im not trying to say these sports are crap or easy, i know they arnt and i wouldnt try doing them myself, i know i would be know good, but what im trying to convey is that being athlethic in diving would assist in bouncing off a board how?

But having great skills to diving properly and form correctly, thats a different story

scunner

Hi all,
New to the darts forum. Find this debate very interesting.
I play both sports and see them as such.
I play pub league darts and also play poker at a resonable level,online and live.
Both sports are very similar mentally.
The pressure you feel when having to hit a double in a close game i can only describe as when you bluff on the river for all your chips and pray you dont get called.
You can try to be calm, but inside your going mad!

Just my thoughts, i find both forums very helpfull.

Regards

Rented Mule

dionsiseire wrote: »

Isnt skill normally the factor that seperates the men from the boys

I would say strength is what separates men and women. I wouldn't go on record saying that men are more skilled.

dionsiseire wrote: »

Dont get me wrong like, im not trying to say these sports are crap or easy, i know they arnt and i wouldnt try doing them myself, i know i would be know good, but what im trying to convey is that being athlethic in diving would assist in bouncing off a board how?

But having great skills to diving properly and form correctly, thats a different story

Being athletic in diving is eveything if you want to go anywhere in the sport. Skill and athleticism go hand in hand in the instance.

Vertical jump
Strength
Quickness
Self awareness of form and body

Diving is much more complicated than you are giving it credit for. Trust me, I used to spend hours training and making sure that they weren't landing on me LOL I took and active interest in what they were doing.

Again, I understand what you are trying to say, I am just not agreeing in which areas you are trying to convery the thought.

nhughes100

If you think about it synchronised swimming lends itself very well to poker, imagine trying to read someone who can hold a smile perfectly whilst out of breath and performing underwater??

I can't believe not one poker forum guy hasn't offered me advice on my trip Aces V straight dilemma.

I lurk quite a bit on the poker forum and a lot of these guys seem to be into triathalons so lets not be too hasty about challanging them to anything!

Anyway in darts news I sliced my index finger on a computer yesterday and I can't stop the fkr bleeding, league supposed to be back on tonight, might have to sit in on a game of 5 card draw instead.

dionsiseire

Can you get a poker injury i wonder???

i wonder if thats how a sport could be defined, by weather you can get injured playing it or not. That said with all the maths you could get a brain haemorrage. So i guess we'll never have a definitive what is a sport answer

Also Rented Mule i will leave it, me no speak english good
My ability to convey what im saying is beyond me and i dont want to seem like im trolling
** Dig Up dionsiseire you fool **

getz

wouldent it be nice to have a sport in the olympics that you dont have to under 30 years old to do ?wrinklies rule 180

getz

Mellor wrote: »

You example only makes darts look like a some-what new sport. Its current form is much newer and besides, many sports pre-date the middles ages by over 1000 years.

you are just not getting it only a handfull of the olympic sports are over a 100 years old i can just see the greeks doing synchronized swiming

Rented Mule

getz wrote: »

you are just not getting it only a handfull of the olympic sports are over a 100 years old i can just see the greeks doing synchronized swiming

What were the Ancient Olympics anyways ?

Running and throwing spears for the most part ....no ? Probably a chariot race thrown in for good measure.

5starpool

5starpool wrote: »

Barcelona introducing that mad game with the long couty, hard ball, and corved attachments on their arm for throwing it. I can't remember it right now, but I'm sure some of you know what I am on about.

Jai Lai

Mellor

getz wrote: »

you are just not getting it only a handfull of the olympic sports are over a 100 years old i can just see the greeks doing synchronized swiming

He called darts one of the oldest sports in the world. I was pointing out that it isn't, and it's not even close. Olympics or otherwise.

Mellor

dionsiseire wrote: »

Clearly the people participating at olympic level are actually physically fit people, what i was saying was that you dont technically have to be fit to swim syncronously for 5 minutes, you might look terrible doing it but you dont have to be a specimen of human engineering.

This is potentially the silliest comment on this whole thread.
Your insane reasoning could be applied to any sport in the world.I A fat unfit bloke can play soccer, he'll likely be terrible, but he can still play. Come on ffs.


I think people are missing the point, nobody said poker is as much a sport as darts. The issue was dionsiseire's suggestion that poker takes 15 minutes of practice to compete at the top level. And that it requires no concentration.

phantom_lord

dionsiseire wrote: »

Can you get a poker injury i wonder???

yup

whaaames

this debte could rage on for hours and still be no closer to a result, but the question still remains; should darts be included in the olympics...?

As a massive darts fan for years my heart says yes defo, but my head is aying no, considering the major factors involved like the fact that only 4 team gb members coud compete in any one event would rule everyone out excepr taylor, wade, jankins or anderson. And then in the games themselves theres still only 3 or 4 people capable of winning medals and theres still barney, part, klassen etc.
i just dont think it would work on an olympic level, the fact that some of the best players in the world would be left at home is too much of a flaw.

but as an exhibition maybe..? the tv exposure would be dynamite

Rented Mule

premierstone wrote: »

In the olympics you can only have three competitors from each country in an event so for darts you will have three english men, three dutch men and John part( maybe an aussie aswell) and no-one else would have a realistic chance of medaling and to the point that was made that it would help dats in America with the amount of events in the olympics id serioiusly doubt the American public would watch asport where they have no competitor with any chance of winning a medal

As an American, I am going to take this in a different direction with a few comments.

1) Darts would have a hard time getting much coverage in the States during the Olympics (starting out) due to the massive number of American athletes that qualify in all of the other sports and disciplines.

American television coverage will almost always try to show an American competing in their event. They trained their whole life for an event so they will show them. The same thing happens over here when you watch one of the Irish 'also rans'is competing in an event.

2) Darts are not just 501. The Olympics would have to be more than just an individual 501 tournament. There are different formats that could be played. 501, 301, Cricket, Chicago Format, Doubles, Mixed Triples etc.....

3) The players would be constantly drug (and yes ALCOHOL) tested, so you can basically write off the majority of professionals at the moment who like to have a few gargles to clam the nerves.

4) Money would be thrown into programs around the world to develop dart throwers. Could you imagine the Chinese government putting together a dart program with over one billion people to draw from ? Sure the UK would most likely dominate starting out, but where would they rank 4, 8, 12 years down the line ?

You have to open your mind to everything that goes with opening up a new sport/discipline to the rest of the world at the Olympic games.

nhughes100

Point 1- correct although I think the PDC is looking to break into any market to be honest, South Africa, China, Australia all have had the big 4 travel in the past 12-18 months for various opens televised on Nuts TV.

2 - Another good point, a televised pairs competiton is something darts is missing at the moment.

3 - Would definitely rule out the BDO guys, every time they cut back to Ray Stubbs there's any amount of them walking around sculling pints. Really does something for the sports image.

4 - Not so sure about this one, population size has never really been proven as a way to take over a sport. Like would the chinese be the next New Zealand if the Chinese governemnt threw billions into Rugby? Jamaica rules the sprints at the moment but I'd say they put a fraction into their runners compared to the US.

I'm still leaning towards a no, darts & poker are doing fine on their own. I can't say I'd be rushing to badminton or amatuer boxing after the last olympics.

ArmaniJeanss

nhughes100 wrote: »

3 - Would definitely rule out the BDO guys, every time they cut back to Ray Stubbs there's any amount of them walking around sculling pints. Really does something for the sports image.

I half caught an interview with Ted Hankey after his first round game, talking about his new lifestyle and it sounded as if he was talking about being on the wagon.
After his 1/4 final tonight he clarified it for me, just 6 pints on Wednesday, 5 yesterday and an almost pioneer-like 3 pints today before his 6.30PM match.

And Stubbs and BGeorge congratulated him about this, making him sound like a role model.

Rented Mule

nhughes100 wrote: »

4 - Not so sure about this one, population size has never really been proven as a way to take over a sport. Like would the chinese be the next New Zealand if the Chinese governemnt threw billions into Rugby? Jamaica rules the sprints at the moment but I'd say they put a fraction into their runners compared to the US.

Certian people are built differently for certain physical events. It's also about different cultures that embrace different sporting events.

My comment was geared more towards the way the Chinese government has set up different schools for athletes to hone their crafts. Imagine what could happen if a governement actually took interest in a particular sport ?

Healio

From the sky sport debate:

A darts player can walk up to 15 miles in the course of a tournament. This has allowed it to remain a sport rather than a game. According to Dr Peter Gregory of the University of Nottingham: "Darts involves physical activity that is of sufficient intensity that many of the general populace would benefit from taking it up on a regular basis."

dionsiseire

Mellor wrote: »

This is potentially the silliest comment on this whole thread.
Your insane reasoning could be applied to any sport in the world.I A fat unfit bloke can play soccer, he'll likely be terrible, but he can still play. Come on ffs.


I think people are missing the point, nobody said poker is as much a sport as darts. The issue was dionsiseire's suggestion that poker takes 15 minutes of practice to compete at the top level. And that it requires no concentration.

God there's no point typing anything on here really, everyone just takes everything how they want to

I said that in Poker, it is extremely plausible that a complete beginner could get lucky and beat a seasoned pro. its entirely possible to get lucky and do it.

There is no such possible element of luck in darts, a complete beginner will struggle to even hit the board, and as the game goes on they will probably hit 1 of everything, but they could most definitely not keep up with a phil taylor or a james wade. impossible, in fact not even a pro, a newbie would almost certainly not even beat a decent amatuer.

So in essence ive said that a top level poker player could plausibly be defeated with luck, no such thing exists in darts

As for the concentration comment, compared to darts, while playing poker you can drink and chat, you could make a phone call, you could build a ship inside a bottle if you wanted. Most poker games progress at a slow enough rate, however if your playing at a top level of poker and your doing all the math involved and attempting to read everyone's plays as one might attempt to do. Well then a good level of concentration would be needed. But as in my previous point, with a bit of luck you could still do very well at poker without the math and reading people.

i dont think anything ive said there is unreasonable or silly, i dont disagree that the math and reading people would take concentration, i dont disagree that they may help you win more regularly. But its possible to win without the concentration and math skills, however statistically unlikely it is.

I would like to say thats the defining point and say this makes darts a sport and poker not, but honestly it doesnt, as i would have to say the same point about chess, its completely unlikely a first time player of chess could beat a grand master, the concentration and analysis breakdown a grand master would do would be intense too. But could a board game like chess be a sport, no way, its a board game, just played extremely competitively.

With darts there is actual physical exertion due to the amount of walking undertaken (someone put the details in a previous post), you dont need to be mad fit, but it does help for stamina and concentration. it clearly doesnt require the level of fitness's of a lot of sports. but how fit do you have to be to have it be a sport?

And finally, im not saying a FAT bloke could be a footballer or diver, but an average joe with an ok body but no PHYSICALLY fit, could have the technical ability like a pro, im sure maradona is still fantastic with a football but cant do the running anymore. He's still technically with regard skill a good footballer, but he's not fit.

mdwexford

You actually talked some sense and made a fair point in that post, well done.

Mellor

dionsiseire, your above post makes sense and I'd agree with it in most places. I'd disagree with it about the concentration, as imo thats subjective. To you, poker might require little concentration, and Darts alot, but to me, its completely reversed.

And I agree, that a novice might beat a pro, as there is a luck element. One that doesn't exist in darts. But thats not what you said first. Thats not what I refered to. The first mention of poker was;

whaaames wrote: »

3. it takes skill, bags full of skill, to play, and practice, hours and hours of practice to obtain a level of skill to be able to compete at the top level...

Trippie wrote: »

By this reasoning poker is a sport then

dionsiseire wrote: »

No he said it requires hours and hours of practice, poker can be picked up in 15 minutes by a person with half a brain.

15 mins by a person with half a brain is not anywhere near the top level. Darts can be picked up in 15 minutes, and takes years to master, as with most sports. I'm not trying to compare Darts and poker, I don't think poker is a sport. I just don't see the point dismissing the skill involved in poker, or the abilities required in other sports to make Darts appear a more legitimate sport.

jwshooter

the PDC a tidy enough looking bunch .but if some one from the BDO won a olympic gold madel they would have it made into a ring to go with the other bling they wear .