The Second Coming has happened!!!!!

Zaynzma

Thank you very much for taking the time and trouble to respond in so much detail. I'm not very familiar with using these boards so I can't put all the quotes like you did but I will try to respond in the same order that you wrote in and hope it will be clear which bits I am replying to.

Firstly, you dismissed the familial relationship between the Ishmaelites and the Israelites as no more significant than that between all human beings. This is not correct. At the time God is reckoned to have spoken to Moses in Deut 18:18, only a few generations separated them from the brothers from whom they were descended (Ishmael and Isaac respectively). Nor can all humans be said to have descended from a pair of brothers (& their wives of course).

I don't accept your statement that 'brethren' exclusively refers to Israelites as a group. It is used in that context sometimes, yes. However, it also has a general meaning of 'descendents of 2 or more brothers'. So when God describes the 12 tribes as 'brethren' to each other he means (eg) that the Levites are brethren to the Benjaminites, not (in this case) that the Levites are brethren to each other (see Deut 18:1 for an illustration of what I mean). However of course the Levites are brethren to each other in another sense, as they are descended from the 3 brothers who were the sons of Levi (see 18:7 for an illustration of this use of the word 'brethren'). So in conclusion (:)) it seems perfectly reasonable to me to refer to the descendents of Ishmael as 'brethren' of the descendents of Isaac.

You say that when God told Moses pbuh that He would raise up a prophet "like unto thee" he was referring to the bringing of a covenant. Moses brought a covenant and Jesus brought a covenant. But this doesn't really make sense. Why would God say "a prophet like you" IF the person to whom He was referring was not much "like Moses" at all, but was in fact God Himself made flesh by means of a miraculous birth and who would be sacrificing Himself in a bloody death and being miraculously resurrected? It seems far less of a stretch to believe that when God said "a prophet like you" He meant another prophet who would be very like Moses in lots of ways.

Now, to move on - are you seriously comparing your inability to relate to an animal to God's supposed inability to relate to us (without taking on human form)? Can I just point out a rather obvious difference here? GOD IS OUR CREATOR. You did not create the animal that is why you have a limited understanding of what it's like to be one. God, sublime and glorious is He, understands us perfectly and has no need of walking on earth with two legs to understand us better. He knows us completely, He understands us absolutely. He created us. Do you deny His Omniscience? I urge you to reflect further on this. I bear witness that God is the Knower of Hearts and His knowledge encompasses everything, there is nothing about which He is unaware.

You explained what you love about Christianity so I will say that what I love about Islam is it states plainly and unequivically that God forgives sin without the need for any innocent blood to be spilled. He loves us and freely forgives us asking only for our sincere repentance.

I don't get on the computer very often so I may not be able to come on this thread again for a while.

philologos

Zaynzma wrote: »

Firstly, you dismissed the familial relationship between the Ishmaelites and the Israelites as no more significant than that between all human beings. This is not correct. At the time God is reckoned to have spoken to Moses in Deut 18:18, only a few generations separated them from the brothers from whom they were descended (Ishmael and Isaac respectively). Nor can all humans be said to have descended from a pair of brothers (& their wives of course).

Israelite refers to those descended from Jacob. There was no Ishmaelite present to hear the words that Moses was speaking.

Indeed, the Israelites although being God's chosen were as fallible as anyone else. However, you are taking the Bible out of context when you are saying that "brethren" in reference to the Israelite people is referring to Ishmaelites. We could make a prophesy mean anything we like if we take your means of interpretation.

Zaynzma wrote: »

I don't accept your statement that 'brethren' exclusively refers to Israelites as a group. It is used in that context sometimes, yes.

Throughout all of Deuteronomy, Moses is speaking to the Israelites.

Zaynzma wrote: »

However, it also has a general meaning of 'descendents of 2 or more brothers'. So when God describes the 12 tribes as 'brethren' to each other he means (eg) that the Levites are brethren to the Benjaminites, not (in this case) that the Levites are brethren to each other (see Deut 18:1 for an illustration of what I mean). However of course the Levites are brethren to each other in another sense, as they are descended from the 3 brothers who were the sons of Levi (see 18:7 for an illustration of this use of the word 'brethren'). So in conclusion (:)) it seems perfectly reasonable to me to refer to the descendents of Ishmael as 'brethren' of the descendents of Isaac.

The Levites are brethren to the Benjaminites because all of these tribes are descended from Israel (Jacob).

It doesn't seem reasonable to me that when Moses was clearly speaking to the Israelites about them as a chosen people having to reclaim the land that God promised them to assert that it really meant something completely different without much basis.

Zaynzma wrote: »

You say that when God told Moses pbuh that He would raise up a prophet "like unto thee" he was referring to the bringing of a covenant. Moses brought a covenant and Jesus brought a covenant. But this doesn't really make sense. Why would God say "a prophet like you" IF the person to whom He was referring was not much "like Moses" at all, but was in fact God Himself made flesh by means of a miraculous birth and who would be sacrificing Himself in a bloody death and being miraculously resurrected? It seems far less of a stretch to believe that when God said "a prophet like you" He meant another prophet who would be very like Moses in lots of ways.

Jesus was like Moses. He was an Israelite, a medium between God and mankind like Moses. Infact the Christian scriptures compare Moses and Jesus quite extensively:

Hebrews 3:5-6 wrote:

Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

Jesus and Moses were both moral teachers. Jesus and Moses both were from lowly backgrounds yet served God all their lives. I don't think it's reasonable to say that there are no similarities. However, Jesus was more than Moses, because Jesus was God's own son. Moses is of infinite value to us as a prophet. Jesus is our Saviour.

What makes you think Jesus was not like Moses? Actually, what makes you think Muhammad was like Moses?

Zaynzma wrote: »

Now, to move on - are you seriously comparing your inability to relate to an animal to God's supposed inability to relate to us (without taking on human form)? Can I just point out a rather obvious difference here? GOD IS OUR CREATOR. You did not create the animal that is why you have a limited understanding of what it's like to be one. God, sublime and glorious is He, understands us perfectly and has no need of walking on earth with two legs to understand us better. He knows us completely, He understands us absolutely. He created us. Do you deny His Omniscience? I urge you to reflect further on this. I bear witness that God is the Knower of Hearts and His knowledge encompasses everything, there is nothing about which He is unaware.

Not God's inability, rather our inability to relate to Him in divine terms. God to fully get our understanding had to come to us as one of us. We need help. God gave us that help.

It's why I feel Christianity makes much more sense than Islam. God cared about us, and about our understanding of Him so much that He humbled Himself for us, not only by taking human flesh, but also by being humiliated for our sake.

Zaynzma wrote: »

You explained what you love about Christianity so I will say that what I love about Islam is it states plainly and unequivically that God forgives sin without the need for any innocent blood to be spilled. He loves us and freely forgives us asking only for our sincere repentance.

Jesus resurrected in the Christian faith, so it isn't an argument against Christianity. He lives with the Father to this present day.

God is a God of justice, He demands atonement. God is also a God of mercy, bringing our old life to an end, and giving us new life through Him. We become new people when we follow Christ. From what I know, Islam doesn't bring this notion to the table.

However, about your point about the Islamic idea of God. Does the Islamic idea of God judge people in Islam purely on their works? Do you have to work your way to heaven is basically what I am asking? Is strict following of Islamic rituals a key behind salvation? I'm genuinely curious.

Zaynzma wrote: »

I don't get on the computer very often so I may not be able to come on this thread again for a while.

No problem.

imported_guy

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

I am an Irish convert to Islam living in Galway.

I am a member of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community. We are Muslims who believe that Jesus survived the cross and continued his mission to preach to the 12 tribes of the house of Israel, 10 of whom had been resettled as far away as modern day Afghanistan during the rain or Nebekaneser 500 years earlier.

Furthermore we believe that as Muhammad (saw) is the last Prophet and Islam the last Law that the Messiah will come from among the Muslims. He will be someone with Jesus's characteristics who will claim to be the Messiah.

That person was Hazret Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. We are in 198 countries with over 200 million believers and growing with our own channel
"MTA International" on Shy channel 787.


I would love to hear from anyone who would like to hear the message. Not interested in abuse or ridicule.:cool:

The view expressed on this thread are not necessarily the views of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat.


Wasalam
Yusuf

people, this guy doesnt represent the muslim community at large, please do not attempt to argue with him etc, he is 100% wrong, and no muslim scholar will ever issue a fatwa which will say this statement is correct, do not fall for this untrue and blasphemous statement.

i dont even think ahmadiya (just like bahai etc) are considered muslim, by the muslim community.... unlike other sects i.e shia/sunni/wahhabi/sufi which are all considered muslims by the main muslim sects.


As far as i am concerened this is blasphamy (and against the irish blasphamy laws) and shouldnt even be posted in the islamic section.

Yusuf Mirza

AA

I am sorry that you feel that way brother

i dont even think ahmadiya (just like bahai etc) are considered muslim, by the muslim community.... unlike other sects i.e shia/sunni/wahhabi/sufi which are all considered muslims by the main muslim sects.

I believe that Sufis are definetly considered KAFIR by Wahabis and WAHABI are considered KAFIR by Sufis. Also Shiah consider all Sunni KAFIR and most SUNNI consider SHIA Kafir. So it is no suprise that we are also considered KAFIR by other MUSLIMS:rolleyes:

Here is a quote dear brother that perhaps will enlighten you as you said that no scholar has ever agreed on this thing that Jesus is dead acording to the Holy Quran;


Mahmud Shaltut, former Mufti of Egypt and ex-Rector of al-Azhar University,
Cairo, writes:

i. "There is no authority in the Quran or the Sunna which can satisfy the heart upon
the belief that Jesus was taken up to heaven with his body and that he is still alive there and that he shall descend therefrom to earth in the last days."
(Al-Fatawa, published by Al-Idara al-‘Ama lil-Saqafat al-Islamiyya bil-Azhar, pp. 52-58)

ii. "The Quranic verses in this connection indicate that God had promised Jesus that He would cause him to die at the appointed time, and elevate him to Himself, and protect him from the disbelievers. This promise has been fulfilled. His enemies could not kill him or crucify him; instead, God caused him to die at the end of his appointed term and elevated him to Himself."
(Ibid.)



So you see that according to Al Azhar University in Ciaro this fatwa by the Ullema proves that Jesus died acording to Quran. So the question arises brother that then who will that person be who is to come that will be given the titel Isa Ibn Miriam?

Further on this another quote and fatwa;


In his Quranic commentary, the Shaikh al-Akbar Muhayy-ud-Din Ibn Arabi writes:

"The raising (raf‘) of Jesus means that, at the time of separation, his soul was raised from the lower world to the higher world. And his being in the fourth heaven signifies that the source of his soul’s benefit is the spirituality of that sun’s sky which
resembles the heart of the world, and towards that is his place of return. That
spirituality is a light which illumines that heaven with its love, and the shining of the
rays upon his soul is done by its stimulation. And as Jesus’ place of return is towards its real place of rest, and cannot attain its true development, his (Jesus’) descent in the latter days will be in a different body."


Wasalam

Yusuf:D

imported_guy

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

AA

I am sorry that you feel that way brother

i dont even think ahmadiya (just like bahai etc) are considered muslim, by the muslim community.... unlike other sects i.e shia/sunni/wahhabi/sufi which are all considered muslims by the main muslim sects.

I believe that Sufis are definetly considered KAFIR by Wahabis and WAHABI are considered KAFIR by Sufis. Also Shiah consider all Sunni KAFIR and most SUNNI consider SHIA Kafir. So it is no suprise that we are also considered KAFIR by other MUSLIMS:rolleyes:

Here is a quote dear brother that perhaps will enlighten you as you said that no scholar has ever agreed on this thing that Jesus is dead acording to the Holy Quran;


Mahmud Shaltut, former Mufti of Egypt and ex-Rector of al-Azhar University,
Cairo, writes:

i. "There is no authority in the Quran or the Sunna which can satisfy the heart upon
the belief that Jesus was taken up to heaven with his body and that he is still alive there and that he shall descend therefrom to earth in the last days."
(Al-Fatawa, published by Al-Idara al-‘Ama lil-Saqafat al-Islamiyya bil-Azhar, pp. 52-58)

ii. "The Quranic verses in this connection indicate that God had promised Jesus that He would cause him to die at the appointed time, and elevate him to Himself, and protect him from the disbelievers. This promise has been fulfilled. His enemies could not kill him or crucify him; instead, God caused him to die at the end of his appointed term and elevated him to Himself."
(Ibid.)



So you see that according to Al Azhar University in Ciaro this fatwa by the Ullema proves that Jesus died acording to Quran. So the question arises brother that then who will that person be who is to come that will be given the titel Isa Ibn Miriam?

Further on this another quote and fatwa;


In his Quranic commentary, the Shaikh al-Akbar Muhayy-ud-Din Ibn Arabi writes:

"The raising (raf‘) of Jesus means that, at the time of separation, his soul was raised from the lower world to the higher world. And his being in the fourth heaven signifies that the source of his soul’s benefit is the spirituality of that sun’s sky which
resembles the heart of the world, and towards that is his place of return. That
spirituality is a light which illumines that heaven with its love, and the shining of the
rays upon his soul is done by its stimulation. And as Jesus’ place of return is towards its real place of rest, and cannot attain its true development, his (Jesus’) descent in the latter days will be in a different body."


Wasalam

Yusuf:D

i can post a 100 fatwas saying your non muslim, here is one of them. http://alhafeez.org/rashid/gambia.html

its easy to throw around fatwas against each other, and no sunni and shia dont hate each other, i have shia in my own close family alot of my dad's cousins are shia, but both my mother and father are sunni, how can you say that we hate each other? we just arent very fond of you (ahmadiyya), or the bahhai, and the thing about sufi's and the wahhabi, i dont really care, but shia and sunni, the 2 main sects under islam both consider them to be muslims, i havent come across any fatwas from shia or sunni scholars considering them non muslims, shia vs sunni gig only stands in iran and iraq and the wahabi vs sufi gig only stands true in saudi arabia, everywhere else most muslims (except ahmadiyya) and the bahai, nation of islam etc are considered true muslims.

jesus dieing on the cross is considered blasphmey by all MUSLIMS. you are not muslim, get over it. that is the main difference of belief between muslims and christians.

TCP/IP_King

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

these are just 10 of the thousands of mistakes and contredicions in the bible.
Old Testement first......

First hit with Google. This guy has 101 mistakes - and if you read them most are bull$h1t.
E.g.

73. What did the centurion say when Jesus dies?

• “Certainly this man was innocent” (Luke 23:47)
• “Truly this man was the Son of God” (Mark 15:39)

So what !!

philologos

I wouldn't consider that a mistake. It's quite conceivable that
a) the centurion said both
b) they are referring to two separate centurions

That isn't a contradiction. Again, googling for contradictions isn't really engaging with the truth of the Gospel, rather it is fishing for a reason not to engage with it.

TCP/IP_King

Jakkass wrote: »

I wouldn't consider that a mistake. It's quite conceivable that
a) the centurion said both
b) they are referring to two separate centurions

That isn't a contradiction. Again, googling for contradictions isn't really engaging with the truth of the Gospel, rather it is fishing for a reason not to engage with it.

You misunderstood me.
I googled the OPs "mistakes" to see where he was getting his info from and lo and behold >> http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0009_page3.htm << turns up with his list plus 101 more.

If you read them they are all "so what" "mistakes" - nothing faith shattering there.

imported_guy

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

You misunderstood me.
I googled the OPs "mistakes" to see where he was getting his info from and lo and behold >> http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0009_page3.htm << turns up with his list plus 101 more.

If you read them they are all "so what" "mistakes" - nothing faith shattering there.

i love it when one religion or athiests pull the contradiction card against another so funny hahaha

philologos

TCP/IP_King: I was merely agreeing with you

Yusuf Mirza

jesus dieing on the cross is considered blasphmey by all MUSLIMS. you are not muslim, get over it. that is the main difference of belief between muslims and christians.[/quote] :mad:


AA Brother


Alhamdoillah, Alhamdoillah brother you have proven your ignorance with this statement as to what Ahmadi Muslims believe. Ahmadi Muslims believe that Jesus did not die on the cross nor was he murdered by the Jews. We believe that he was saved from death on the cross as the Qur’an categorically states;

And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty;
Al Nisa

The Jews planned to kill him and in doing so prove naoozoobillah in accordance with Deuteronomy 21:23 so that if he was killed in this manner then the Jews could prove his untruthfulness. But AllahT’Allah saved him from the accursed death that the Jews had in store for him. The Christians also say that Isa Ibn Mirriam (as) became accursed for their sins. This is the biggest insult any human being can place upon a Prophet of Allah.

Allah says in this Surah that he was neither killed not crucified but it was made to appear as if he had been crucified. Just as in the Qur’an Prophet Ibrahim was put in the fire but Allah made it cool for him Isa alahi salam was placed upon the cross but alhamdoillah Allah saved him and he was taken down alive. Crucifixion is not the act of being put on the cross but the act of losing one’s life on the cross. This verse proved that Isa only appeared as one who had been crucified. The Jews and Christians believe he died an accursed death (may Allah forgive them). But Allah saved his humble servant.

So Ahmadi Muslims believe that Allah saved Isa from crucifixion.

It’s such a pity that you are so spiteful brother :mad: that instead of drawing your own conclusions you, like every mullah just go by the word of the street and whatever way the wind is blowing. Also it shows your naivety (you must be quite young) that you concur ullimah fatwa with your own circle of friends. I know so many non Ahmadi sunni/shiah Muslims including Imams even here in Ireland who have great respect and reverence for Ahmadiyyat Islam. So going by your criteria that means we are accepted by the ullemah right? Or perhaps I was speaking in general terms and not in terms of personal relationships. Bless. :rolleyes:

You certainly have the right to express your own beliefs but if you are speaking as a “Muslim” then you must bring the authority of Qur’an with you. (as i have):P

Another victim of youtube I think.:cool:

Wasalam

Yusuf

imported_guy

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

So you see that according to Al Azhar University in Ciaro this fatwa by the Ullema proves that Jesus died acording to Quran. So the question arises brother that then who will that person be who is to come that will be given the titel Isa Ibn Miriam?

you just contradicted yourself there. you reference an alim, who proves jesus died on the cross, and then you come around and say you believe he didnt die on the cross


make up your mind, im not a muslim (i once was) im an athiest but i have enough knowledge about islam to challange your views, and prove you defaming muslims by marking yourself as a muslim, speaking for rest of the MUSLIM population when you post about your messiah (second comming)who does not exist.

the second comming is clearly described in the quran, with the comming of dajjal (one eyed humanoid) and imam mahdi, and jesus himself.

Yusuf Mirza

Islam has many denominations. Ahmadiyyat are those Muslims who believe that the promised Mahdi and Messiah of the latter days has already come upon this earth. Most Muslims believe it will be two persons a Mahdi and Jesus son of Mary who is alive in heaven. We believe that as according to the Holy Qur’an Jesus died a natural and noble death like all Prophets of Allah and that another shall come in the latter days who will be called Jesus because of the similarities that are bound to be between them in personality, mission and in their lives. Actually this if the major difference between us and other Muslims. Also we are most peaceful and meek Muslims.

Yusuf Mirza

imported_guy wrote: »

you just contradicted yourself there. you reference an alim, who proves jesus died on the cross, and then you come around and say you believe he didnt die on the cross


make up your mind, im not a muslim (i once was) im an athiest but i have enough knowledge about islam to challange your views, and prove you defaming muslims by marking yourself as a muslim, speaking for rest of the MUSLIM population when you post about your messiah (second comming)who does not exist.

the second comming is clearly described in the quran, with the comming of dajjal (one eyed humanoid) and imam mahdi, and jesus himself.

Brother you may be visually farsighted. The Fatwa from al-Azar said that there is no authority in the Quran to satisfy the hearth upon the belief that Jesus ascended up to heaven. I agree. The evidence is that he survived the crucifixion and then fulfilled his lifespan before dying a natural death. Wow no contradiction. You’re not a speed reader are you brother. Don’t worry no one is perfect.:rolleyes:


You are an atheist well ,well I say that if you really had knowledge of Islam you would still be a believer isn’t it. You can certainly challenge my views that is your god given right. You are welcome my dear brother. As for challenging them successfully? A for effort.:D


Please, please bother show me anywhere in the Qur’an where there is mentioned a one eyed humanoid. Now I’m interested. You are the rationalist are you? Don’t you know the word Dajjal means many things in Arabic and not one is “humanoid with a one eye”. Dajjal means; liar, liars, powerful nation, the fire of war, peoples who control fire, advanced technological race, deceiving people etc – Lexicon of Lane.


Salim said, "'Abdullah Ibn 'Omar said, The Prophet stood up to address the people. He praised Allah as He deserved to be praised, then he spoke about the Dajjal: 'I warn you against him; there is no Prophet who has not warned his people against him, even Noah warned his people against him. But I will tell you something which no other Prophet has told his people. You must know that the Dajjal is one-eyed, and Allah is not one-eyed.'"

Hadhrat Huzaifah (R.A.) says, Dajjal will be blind in his left eye. He will have very thick hair on his body and he will also have his own type of Jannat (Heaven) and Jahannam (Hell) with him: Although his Jannat will appear as Jannat, in reality it will be Jahannam and likewise though his Jahannam will appear to be Jahannam, in reality it will be Jannat.
(Hadith: Muslim)

This is allegory. This Hadit is clear that it is referring to that people or nation that will be blind in one eye. Their right “spiritual” eye will be small like a grape and there left “worldly” eye shall be large. This means there will come a time when those who are atheistic, materialistic, wholly ignorant of spiritual truth and verities shall come to dominate the world. They will conspire against Islam and create that system that is taking people away from the worship of Allah Almighty.


But Allah will send the Messih and Mahdi to set that counter system that will separate the people into two camps. Not physically but spiritually. This means the Messiah shall come at the beginning of this age and not at the end. The Quran make specific mention to both the identity of the Dajjal people as well as their end with this surah;


The day when the trumpet will be blown. And on that day We shall gather the sinful together, blue-eyed.TaHa Chapter 20 : Verse 103


Blue eyed? These are the Western Nations. Look at Arabia where the Dajjal is surrounding Mukkah. Troops in Yemen, Iraq, Saudi, Jordan, Israel, Kuwait and UAE. Dajjal is there making people think that immorality is good and morals are dumb and boring. Muslims are calling each other non Muslim (like you called me) and turning away from religion (like you) and becoming lost in materialism.


How very medieval of you that you have this interpretation. No wonder you became a disbeliever. And here you are calling me non Muslim and you yourself are a by your own admission a Kafir.

How extremely ironic.

imported_guy

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

How very medieval of you that you have this interpretation. No wonder you became a disbeliever. And here you are calling me non Muslim and you yourself are a by your own admission a Kafir.

How extremely ironic.

atleast im honest about my faith, and atleast im not a munafiq which is alot worse than a kafir see you in hell if it exists

dajjal is taken from sahi bukhari or sahi muslim, they have the most detailed accounts on him since you dont follow either of these hadith, why bother even explaining to you? go suck up to mirza gluam ahmed, whos your messiah, and is supposed to take you to heaven
























oh wait hes dead... if you want to take this debate to the PM's i'll prove to you how every religion is full of BS including yours.

Yusuf Mirza

You can only have a debate when there are certain criteria outlined in which to judge the merits of each argument. If you want to debate on a specific topic brother then please present that and the parameters of that otherwise no one will get anywhere.:)

noor tkd master

Firstly: this former Muslim has no Authority to declare the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat or anyone belonging to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat that they are none Muslim! Indeed no human has this right or any so called Ulema of Islam today. It is clear from the Holy Qur’an that anyone who declares “there is none worthy of worship except Allah, and Muhammad (saw) is the Messenger of Allah” then indeed they are Muslim.


On the issue of having the belief that Hadrat Isa (as) died a natural death and that he survived, from death on the cross, well everybody has the right to their belief. And of course they should be able to substantiate their claims but to declare, that this is blasphemous, is absolutely wrong! May I remind this person, to remember what is happening in Pakistan, all this is due to the consistent abuse by the so called Ulema of Pakistan! Who for the last forty years or more were entangled in throwing abuse and calling each other “Kafir” and now look what is happening. Let this be a lesson to Ireland.


Noor

irishconvert

Salaam brothers and sisters.

Ok, if you want to discuss the rights or wrongs of the Ahmadiyyas then could you please open a seperate thread and discuss it there? I don't want it discussed in any other topics from now on as it just distracts.

JazakAllah.

noor tkd master

irishconvert wrote: »

Salaam brothers and sisters.

Ok, if you want to discuss the rights or wrongs of the Ahmadiyyas then could you please open a seperate thread and discuss it there? I don't want it discussed in any other topics from now on as it just distracts.

JazakAllah.

Irish convert: can you please explain what you mean by “I’m Islamic” interesting statement. I don’t agree with opening a separate thread if this discussion takes place lets us allow anyone to discuss.
Jazakallah
Noor

noor tkd master

Jakkass wrote: »

This isn't consistent with what is prophesied in the Bible. Mind you many Muslims consider the Bible to be in grave error and suggest that the Injeel is in existence. The Injeel being the true Gospel, not the "corrupted" one that we use. I find it interesting, but the authenticity of the Bible has been debated by many including atheists, agnostics, and so on, and it still stands as a reputable text.

Sir, were I agree the bible is highly regarded and indeed we should show great respect to the Bible. But the authenticity of the Bible is questionable. In the theological world it is accepted that errors are in the Bible. But it is up to the theologians to be honest. This does not mean that we cannot find elements of truth in the Bible this can be easily done.
Regarding the issue of second coming and your statement that this is not consistent with prophecy from the Bible. Well I was wondering, was it not the belief of the Jews during and before the time of Jesus that Elijah would return before the day of the lord? That he would descend from heaven in his chariot.
But Prophet Elijah himself did not return. When Jesus was asked about this prophecy that this was not consistent with the understanding of the Torah. Jesus reply was that John the Baptist was indeed the fulfilment of this prophecy. It would seem, that the way one expects the second coming to happen, may not be happen in the way we believe it will happen.
Was it not Jesus who said “39- For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say ‘blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. (Matthew 23v 39). It would seem that indeed someone else will come instead of Jesus fulfilling the prophecy, just like Elijah.
Noor

philologos

noor tkd master wrote: »

In the theological world it is accepted that errors are in the Bible. But it is up to the theologians to be honest.

This isn't true. There are a minority of liberal scholars who insist this is true, and a lot of conservative scholars who reject this as being the case.

In fact I'm sure that this is also the case in Qur'anic studies.

Let's not be disingenuous with what we claim as fact.

noor tkd master wrote: »

Regarding the issue of second coming and your statement that this is not consistent with prophecy from the Bible. Well I was wondering, was it not the belief of the Jews during and before the time of Jesus that Elijah would return before the day of the lord? That he would descend from heaven in his chariot.

The Jewish belief is that Elijah would come before Jesus in his earthly ministry. John the Baptist is considered to be this figure.

However, if someone tells you that the Messiah has arrived before you have seen the signs in Matthew 24 it should be automatically rejected. Jesus Himself will be returning.

noor tkd master wrote: »

But Prophet Elijah himself did not return. When Jesus was asked about this prophecy that this was not consistent with the understanding of the Torah. Jesus reply was that John the Baptist was indeed the fulfilment of this prophecy. It would seem, that the way one expects the second coming to happen, may not be happen in the way we believe it will happen. [/font]
Was it not Jesus who said “39- For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say ‘blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. (Matthew 23v 39). It would seem that indeed someone else will come instead of Jesus fulfilling the prophecy, just like Elijah.

See above for the Christian viewpoint on Elijah.

I have a question for you: How could Jesus have been the Messiah if He were not put to death as in Isaiah 53?

My problem with Islam's view of Jesus is that it lessens His true role. It waters down what the prophesies say of the Messiah.

PDN

noor tkd master wrote: »

It would seem that indeed someone else will come instead of Jesus fulfilling the prophecy

It would only seem like that to someone who is incredibly ignorant of how language is used in the Bible.

Yusuf Mirza

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of
man coming in his kingdom."
Mathew 16:28

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom
of God."
Luke 9:27

So here according to the Bible Jesus (as) is telling his congregation that they shall themselves not taste death until he returns. Yet 2,000 years later that generation has long passed and their bones turned to dust. Where is Jesus? Are you not still waiting for the kingdom of God?

The Gospels clearly say that the times which Jesus lived were themselves the latter days. That the latter days were upon them already and not some time in the far distant future.

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his
Son...."
Hebrews .1:2

"But now once in the end of the world hath he
appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."
Hebrews .9:26

"And every spirit that confesseth not that
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this
is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that
it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
John 4:3


So it cannot be argued that this prophecy was for the end times when clearly the end times were 2,000 according to the authors of the bible.


My point is that the mindset and ideology of the authors of the Bible was very different to that of today. They believed the end of the world was nigh. So to now in this age critique the Bible as to your own thinking this is infact dangerous. You must look at the times that they lived in, the political and cultural atmosphere that was prevalent at the time. Sir with that I say that it is indeed your ignorance that is apparent and not “tkd master” or whatever his name is. You cannot just pick up a Bible and say “oh I can interpret this to my own liking”


This evidence is that Jesus could never be a true Prophet and say anything untrue therefore these must be insertions of the thinking of the authors (whom ever they were) becouse clearly this is a FAILES PROPHECY.

philologos

You've actually misinterpreted the first quotation - Matthew 16:28:

Of the audience of people he was speaking to, some would not die before Jesus returned to His Father in the Kingdom of God. (I.E at his ascension, not at the second coming).

Read Daniel 7:9-14 with particular notice to 7:13-14.

It's funny that you are even using the Bible however. In Revelations it makes clear that Jesus Christ will be returning Himself.

Yusif Mizra wrote:

You cannot just pick up a Bible and say “oh I can interpret this to my own liking”

Indeed, and that is why we are disputing what you are saying.

Q: Why are you using the Bible to back up your argument if you believe it to be corrupted? Either the Qur'an is true concerning Jesus, or the Bible is surely?

If the Bible is a false book, what does it matter how it is interpreted?

Yusuf Mirza

Firstly. What about the other verses? You did now answer the point. Do you have an answer please?

Secondly. Look if you can find just one mistake in the New Testament then that is proof that the texts were tampered with. Just one example is the genealogy of Jesus (as). In Mathew and in Luke there is a very glaring contradiction. I’m sure you are aware of it. That is just one of thousands of clear and apparent mistakes. Therefore it is the height or surrealism to then say that this text can be relied upon wholly. However definitely there are large parts of the New Testament which still contain that essence for how (from my point of view) then could Christians be brought to Islam? After all in the Qur’an Allah says that if one is in doubt as to those Prophecies that are realised in the coming of the Holy Prophets (saw) then they should look to their former scriptures. So no one is saying that the Bible is 100% wrong but rather it has been rendered inaccurate on many points.

For what would be the point of arguing on the Qur’an with someone who is not Muslim? I would appreciate if you could answer my previous point about the imminent return of Jesus 2,000 years ago.:)

philologos

Your other verses are irrelevant. In Bible it also says that the time will be prolonged so as many people as possible can be saved:

2 Peter 3:4-10 wrote:

They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

This deals with your question, about why the final days have been so long.

Yusif Mizra wrote:

Look if you can find just one mistake in the New Testament then that is proof that the texts were tampered with.

That's a big if.

Be honest with me, where are you finding these arguments from. What website? None of the passages you have quoted disprove the authority of the Bible.

I could google for Qur'an errors, but I want this to be my research, and my argument. I don't want a website to think for me. If you are not researching this yourself, your argument is futile.

To deal with your points further:

Yusif Mizra wrote:

For what would be the point of arguing on the Qur’an with someone who is not Muslim? I would appreciate if you could answer my previous point about the imminent return of Jesus 2,000 years ago.

I could say the very same thing about you and the Bible. You believe the Bible to be false and corrupt. Why use it?

As for Islamic thought saying that people should look to the former scriptures. Why would God give people false scriptures?

Simply put:

There is evidence that Jesus was crucified.
There is Biblical backup that the Messiah had to be killed.
There is textual evidence that suggests that the Bible is as accurate as it was when it was first written.

If I am a historian, why would I trust a text that comes 600 years after Jesus that goes against all other historical records of the Crucifixion, in comparison to a text that comes from it's very earliest 15 years after Jesus (1 Corinthians) that is consistent with other historical records?

Historically, the earlier one is more likely to be more accurate.

I thank you for your respect, and I hope I haven't caused any offence in discussing this, but this is the reason why I cannot find Islam to be reasonable.

Yusuf Mirza

So you are telling me that with all the mistakes that are in the new testament miraculously the subject of the godhead of Jesus has escaped interpolation?

It is not a question of if but of a definitive yes.

Example (not googled)

Mathew 24:36
1,But of this day and hour knoweth no man, no, nor the angels in heaven but my father only. - King James
2,But of this day and hour knoweth no man, no, nor the angels in heaven not even the son, but my father only.

So nor the son that is an alteration.

Acts 3:26
1,Unto you first lord, having raised up his servant.
2, Unto you first lord, having raised up his son Jesus. King James

Again another alteration.

So we see clearly that the bible has been tampered with to insert this alien ideology of Jesus being god in these two verses al least. Therefore the issue of godhead of Jesus is clearly murkier then it first seams.

noor tkd master

Jakkass wrote: »

This isn't true. There are a minority of liberal scholars who insist this is true, and a lot of conservative scholars who reject this as being the case.

In fact I'm sure that this is also the case in Qur'anic studies.

Let's not be disingenuous with what we claim as fact.

[/size]

The Jewish belief is that Elijah would come before Jesus in his earthly ministry. John the Baptist is considered to be this figure.

However, if someone tells you that the Messiah has arrived before you have seen the signs in Matthew 24 it should be automatically rejected. Jesus Himself will be returning.



See above for the Christian viewpoint on Elijah.

I have a question for you: How could Jesus have been the Messiah if He were not put to death as in Isaiah 53?

My problem with Islam's view of Jesus is that it lessens His true role. It waters down what the prophesies say of the Messiah.

Firstly as you yourself pointed out “there should be signs” but in the case of Elijah what would have been the sign? According to the book of Malachi Elijah would be sent before the advent of the Lord. In kings he went up into heaven in a Chariot. Did john the Baptist come from heaven in a chariot? The answer is no! Was he born from the same parents as Elijah no! So how do we know that he was that Elijah 1- Jesus told us that he was the fulfilment of those prophecies? 2- We read in Luke he was born in the power and spirit of Elijah (Luke 1 v 17). The point I want to make is “someone else came in the place of Elijah with similar qualities, that person was john the Baptist.
Matthew 23 v 39 points to another person who will come with similar qualities of Jesus and someone else will come in his place. In the Gospel of Matthew Ch 24 as you rightly pointed out, this Ch is all about the second coming and how we would recognise and know when the second coming would happened.
Interestingly enough, I have often wondered if Jesus was to come back himself, what was the need of giving signs? Or did Jesus know that it would not be him, that would be returning but rather someone else. And indeed when we read Matt: 23 v 39 it would seem to be the case.
Of course I cannot go through all the signs. But many are general signs, meaning the condition of the world at that time of the second coming. For example “6- and you will hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place but the end is not yet.”
As far as wars are concerned in every century there have been wars, and indeed late 18th century early 19th century there were hundreds of wars globally
“7- for nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places, all this is just the beginning of the birth of pangs. Matthew (Ch 24 v 6-7)
In the 17th century there were 29 famines, in 18th century there were 35 famines and in 19th century there were also 35 Famines. And there were also many earth quakes.
So these would not be one of the most important signs even though from the 19th century onwards we have seen the rapid increase of earth quakes and famines and indeed wars. There are other signs Jesus gave that we should be looking at 1- Jesus pointed out where we would find the son of man!
This is a title given only to Jesus.” 27 for as lighting comes from the east and shines on to the west so will be the coming of the son of man.”.
So it would seem that second coming will come from the East! And before anyone gets excited remember Jesus said “ for as lighting comes from the East” so east of where? Israel. So the second coming will somewhere from East of Israel ie India.
I will deal with one other sign next response plus Isa 53.
Noor

philologos

You're not listening now. Elijah came before the Messiah. John the Baptist came before Jesus, and he was the prophetic Elijah according to Christian thought. Nowhere does it say that Elijah has to come 2 times.

noor tkd master

PDN wrote: »

It would only seem like that to someone who is incredibly ignorant of how language is used in the Bible.

Firstly, I know the language of the Bible seen that I have spent 5 years studying Theology and hope to do my Masters. Ignorant would be wrong. Where I agree the use of language is important. Indeed was it not! Because of the use of words and language which caused so much problems on defining the nature of Jesus! At the council of Nicaea! And without doubt even uptil today.

Noor