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The Second Coming has happened!!!!!
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Yusuf Mirza wrote: »So you are telling me that with all the mistakes that are in the new testament miraculously the subject of the godhead of Jesus has escaped interpolation?
You're making assumptions. What basis do you have for the New Testament having mistakes in it? You have presented no evidence so far.
The evidence you provide is typical of a Zakir Naik video. Looks convincing at first until you assess it properly.
As for the Trinity, the Gospel makes clear that Jesus and the Father are one:John 10:30 wrote:I and the Father are one.
Again, you are doing more harm to your argument by using the Bible than not.Yusuf Mirza wrote: »After all in the Qur’an Allah says that if one is in doubt as to those Prophecies that are realised in the coming of the Holy Prophets (saw) then they should look to their former scriptures. So no one is saying that the Bible is 100% wrong but rather it has been rendered inaccurate on many points.
Why would God tell you to look at a flawed book when you cannot understand the Qu'ran?
This isn't a proper answer.
Yusif, you will have to slow down and explain yourself. What are you trying to argue with Matthew 24:36
So nor the son that is an alteration.
List the translations. Your argument is providing 0 evidence.
Comparing the English is bad practice when you are looking for alterations. Rather you should be comparing the Greek. Different translators render words differently, yet they retain the same meaning.
I could do the same with the Qur'an in English, but it'd be better to look to the Arabic wouldn't it?
The same occurs with Acts chapter 3.Yusuf Mirza wrote: »So we see clearly that the bible has been tampered with to insert this alien ideology of Jesus being god in these two verses al least. Therefore the issue of godhead of Jesus is clearly murkier then it first seams.
You are comparing English translations, instead of comparing the Greek sources. Even in Qur'anic translations words are different. If I pick up Abdullah Yusif Ali's translation and compare it with another translation it will differ in wording.
You would have to argue that all other verses that record the divinity of Jesus Christ as being false?
If you can do that I'll be reading intently!0 -
You're making assumptions. What basis do you have for the New Testament having mistakes in it? You have presented no evidence so far.
Clearly I have presented you with ample evidence. I am shocked at your blind sidednes. I have presented you with two verses of bible showing how they have been changed. Are you that blind? PLEASE REREAD THE PREVIOUS MESSAGE BY ME.
Yusif, you will have to slow down and explain yourself. What are you trying to argue with Matthew 24:36
So nor the son that is an alteration
Yes it is an alteration clearly i have just provided that..
Comparing the English is bad practice when you are looking for alterations. Rather you should be comparing the Greek. Different translators render words differently, yet they retain the same meaning.
When there is no mention of a son or the name of Jesus and then it is inserted that has nothing to do with Greek has it!
You would have to argue that all other verses that record the divinity of Jesus Christ as being false?
I am saying Muslims have the origional text and read that every day and understand the meaning of that.
What I am saying jackass is that those very verses that you are leaning on so heavily to prove Jesus as god. They are fabrications. I have given you a taste of that reality. So I genuinely ask that how is it in all honesty that you can then satisfy your heart upon the belief of Jesus as god in light of this thing. The core of your evidence is corrupted. Remember Jesus was that messiah that was prophesied to come. He was the way truth and light for the Jewish people. But he was a humble Prophet of god and you should know this that he himself when he was being stoned by the Jews replies “do you stone me because I do good? They said "We stone you for calling yourself god". He then replied that “do the scriptures not say they ye are gods?. Clearly he is explaining that i am not calling myself god with a big “G” but god in the sense of how it was used in the old testament that “I shall make you Moses as gods onto Pharoh”. So here clearly Jesus himself gives that answer to those who accuse him of calling himself “G”od.0 -
That Bible which you have today is the product of evolution. Often I hear that there were 30,000 manuscripts that the bible was taken from so there can be no mistake. But what about the 100,000 manuscripts that never made it into the bible? First the ideology was there and then the manuscripts were arranged to meet that and not the other way around where the Bible came first and informed and shaped the views of Christians. The council of Nicea is common knowledge. The bible has (as I have shown you) continues to be edited to this day.
Look just one example. The Didache. That is considered a text older than many of the ones in the bible today. And the Letters of clement. They did not make it in because of political considerations. The gospel of Thomas and Barnabas also considered heretical.
The texts which inform Christians today are highly questionable in there authenticity. No one knows who wrote Hebrews but it is accepted because it fits a particular ideology. And not all books are considered inspired by all scholars.Emperor Constantinechose those books who was a man that became a disbeliever on his deathbed. In fact he was converted under bishop Yousebus who was a Unitarian and only believed Jesus was a Man. He was an Arian Christian.
The Apocrypha text was ok until 1880 and then removed from the king James an then all. Why? Do you believe in it? If it was kept in would you accept it? They are contained in many of the same texts that the gospels, Mathew Mark etc came from so why dissolve them from the bible?
So there are hundreds of gospels that we still have today that did not make it into the Bible. A man chose them who was a politician and not filled with the Holy Spirit. Many Bishops after reneged on their agreements. So historically the history of the bible is very murky.0 -
You're not listening now. Elijah came before the Messiah. John the Baptist came before Jesus, and he was the prophetic Elijah according to Christian thought. Nowhere does it say that Elijah has to come 2 times.
Sir it would seem that you are not listening, or you have missed the point. You are correct when you say that Elijah was to come before the Messiah. And indeed this did happen. But according to the Jewish interpretation it would be Elijah himself who would return. But from what we see in the New Testament it was not Elijah the prophet who came hundreads 0f years before Jesus that came back, it was someone else.
So without doubt the prophecy was fulfilled but by someone else. That person being John the Baptist. The Jews at the time of Jesus expected the Elijah the Prophet, who came hundreds of years before Jesus to come back ,himself they were not expecting this to be fulfilled by someone else. Even the apostles questioned Jesus about this, in the words of Jesus “and if you are willing to accept it, he is he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matt: 11 v 14).
Now the language here is very straightforward, these words by Jesus show us that, some people at the time of Jesus were expecting Elijah the Prophet himself to come, they were not accepting John the Baptist. But Jesus was emphatically clear ‘John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy’.
Therefore my point which is very clear that just like today people are expecting that Jesus himself will return, the Ahmadiyya Jamaat believe someone else will fulfil this prophecy just like John the Baptist. You can ask most Jews today they do not accept that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah. They are still waiting for him to come.
Noor0 -
The Apostles questioned Jesus on numerous subjects, from who was the greatest to how many times should they forgive their neighbour. This doesn't mean that it is false, infact the disciples clearly don't understand Jesus towards the start of the Gospels. They remain confused about his identity until it becomes more clear.
Just because the disciples / Apostles were confused by Jesus speaking about John the Baptist as Elijah, doesn't mean that it isn't true.
BTW, doesn't Islam regard Jesus as the Messiah. If John the Baptist were not the Elijah to come Jesus wouldn't have been the Messiah. Likewise, if Jesus were not put to death to rise 3 days later, Jesus would not have been the Messiah.
The disciples didn't "expect" a lot of things from Jesus, from feeding 4000 and 5000 men with their families with ease, healing the lame, walking on water, calming storms and giving parables.Yusif Mizra wrote:That Bible which you have today is the product of evolution. Often I hear that there were 30,000 manuscripts that the bible was taken from so there can be no mistake. But what about the 100,000 manuscripts that never made it into the bible? First the ideology was there and then the manuscripts were arranged to meet that and not the other way around where the Bible came first and informed and shaped the views of Christians. The council of Nicea is common knowledge. The bible has (as I have shown you) continues to be edited to this day.
There are 40,000 manuscripts of the New Testament, and there are probably a similar number of the Old. It is the most widely circulated ancient text in all human history.
As for the gospels which were removed from the Bible, they post dated Jesus by 300 years. We can't regard them as a reliable historical source for Jesus in comparison to texts that range from 15 years, to 60 years after Jesus' death.
In the same way as I cannot see the Qur'an as being a reliable historical text concerning Jesus because it post dates him by 600 years, I cannot hold these gospels as being reliable in comparison to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and the other Christian apostolic writings.
As for the Council of Nicea, the texts were assessed by how widely they were used, and how early they were dated. Hence it was entirely justified to prevent heresy in the Church.
If you click on my "Reasons for Believing" link 1 you will see a youtube video that explains the historical reliability and authenticity of the New Testament Gospels. Watch it first and get back to me.
By the by, I think you are being a bit hasty with your criticisms. Although I have heard arguments criticising the authenticity of the Qur'an, I am not going to use them here until I have become convinced of their truth for myself. Likewise I think you should wait, assess the Bible for what it's worth yourself before entering into hasty criticism of it.
You haven't answered my question:
Why would God want you to read a false book? (you said in Islam followers are to read previous holy texts). If these are false, why would a perfect God insist you read them?0 -
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On the last point that you raised. As I have said there are many insertions in the bible. In john 3:16 it says “God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten son” Here we have a statement which Jesus never makes. Jesus never says himself that he was “begotten” by god. Nor does he say he is the only son of God. This is the point of view and commentary by whoever wrote john. Where ever we read what are known as eye witness accounts that are passed on we have no evidence that Jesus ever proclaimed godhead. Rather we have commentary which is based on fancy. John 3:16 does not give any reference to back up this claim. If one were writing a thesis in a matter and not give references it would be thrown out. So we have really two things. Supposed eye witness accounts passed on and commentary. If you critique properly you can see that many of the events in Jesses life are commentary for instance in the garden of Getsemeny when he prayed to the lord and an angel appeared to him whom was it that was the eye witness? All the apostles’ were asleep. So how was this transmitted?
In the Qur’an Allah is telling Jews and Christians that there are prophecies in there scriptures pertaining to future events. He tell them to look at them carefully and realise the truth of the Holy Prophet (saw)
I would love you to present some criticisms of the authenticity of Quran. This shows your naivety actually on this subject.
Now in the Messiahship of Jesus that if he did not rise he could not be the messiah. So he must have done. Again so naive please brother. Jesus says in the bible that “this is an evil generation who seeketh after a sign but no sign shall be given to them except the sign of Jonah” So here we see that firstly Jesus is rebuking the Jewish people that they are an evil generation who seek after a miraculous sign. But he says that no sign shall be given. Now the resurrection would be an almighty sign wouldn’t it? But here he says no, no sign. He told them only the sign of Johan will be there. How Johan was rejected by his people and cast over the side of the boat. He was swallowed up by a whale. He was taken as dead, lost. But he was saved from death by god. He did not die. He escaped. So Jesus is saying that he shall be cast out and taken as dead and lost (that if one dies on the cross he is false). But god saved him from death and he survived the crucifixion. This is the prophecy fulfilled. If he dies then it would be not fulfilled.
Now at the time of Nebekanezer 500 years earlier 10 tribes were taken away. Jesus came to as he says “I have not come but for the 12 lost tribes” but only 2 were in Israel. So he also says that says that “other sheep I have also that are not of this fold”. He whew that like Jonah he had to undertake his journey and become accepted by the other tribes.
Clearly he was not talking about the Gentiles because openly referred to them a “little dogs” so here he shows his contempt for non Jews. Also he commands his decuples that “go nowhere among the Gentiles”. So he cannot and was not at all referring to those that he despises so openly in the gospels.
So Jesus had survived the crucifixion and travelled to those tribes or else god forbid he failed his very mission which he himself announced.0 -
Carrying on though. I've explained how your comparisons between 2 English translations are invalid. For your argument to stand, you will have to show me that the Greek manuscripts changed.
I've already explained that in Qur'anic translations phrases often differ. Infact there have been several threads on this forum alone that have made this amply clear.
However, if I were trying to prove that the Qur'an has been altered, I would have to show you that the Arabic had changed over time. Likewise, with the Bible you would have to show me that the manuscripts in a major way over time.
The evidence we have from the manuscripts is that the New Testament is as it was written, and we have 40,000 manuscripts to check this up with. What you call the Injeel was never lost or changed, it exists as it was then now.Yusif Mizra wrote:I would love you to present some criticisms of the authenticity of Quran. This shows your naivety actually on this subject.
I will not be criticising the Qur'an until I have studied it for myself. I have read quite a few arguments concerning how the Qur'an itself was compiled from a Christian perspective, but I think it is better if I pose my own arguments, and use my own reasoning.
That isn't naiive, that's intellectual honesty.
Jesus had contempt for non-Jews? This is where I start to doubt your familiarity with the Bible, and it's where I have to ask you to be honest and clarify the sources where you are getting your argument from?
Have you read through the Gospels from start to finish so that you can think for yourself, or are you trusting websites and other materials to think for you?
Jesus said this of Gentiles:Matthew 8:10-13 wrote:When Jesus heard this, he marvelled and said to those who followed Him, "Truly I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven, while the sons of the Kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". And to the centurion Jesus said, "Go; let it be done for you as you have believed"." And the servant was healed at that very moment.
Also why would Jesus tell his followers to make disciples of all nations if he was only witnessing to the Jewish people:Matthew 28:19 wrote:"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold I am with you until the end of the age."
As for the Sign of Jonah:Matthew 12:39-40 wrote:For just as Jonah was three days, and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
Jesus was dead for 3 days before He rose again.
This isn't naiive in the slightest, this is proper Christian interpretation. It's strange that you use this verse to deny the Resurrection when it actually backs it up
You claim that you have provided evidence, but it isn't standing up.
Why are you so eager to attack the legitimacy of the Bible, rather than to present your own argument that someone other than Jesus would return? If it is not Jesus, is it not a First Coming rather than a Second Coming?0 -
noor tkd master wrote: »Sir it would seem that you are not listening, or you have missed the point. You are correct when you say that Elijah was to come before the Messiah. And indeed this did happen. But according to the Jewish interpretation it would be Elijah himself who would return. But from what we see in the New Testament it was not Elijah the prophet who came hundreads 0f years before Jesus that came back, it was someone else.
So without doubt the prophecy was fulfilled but by someone else. That person being John the Baptist. The Jews at the time of Jesus expected the Elijah the Prophet, who came hundreds of years before Jesus to come back ,himself they were not expecting this to be fulfilled by someone else. Even the apostles questioned Jesus about this, in the words of Jesus “and if you are willing to accept it, he is he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matt: 11 v 14).
Now the language here is very straightforward, these words by Jesus show us that, some people at the time of Jesus were expecting Elijah the Prophet himself to come, they were not accepting John the Baptist. But Jesus was emphatically clear ‘John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy’.
Therefore my point which is very clear that just like today people are expecting that Jesus himself will return, the Ahmadiyya Jamaat believe someone else will fulfil this prophecy just like John the Baptist. You can ask most Jews today they do not accept that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah. They are still waiting for him to come.
Noor
Sir again it would seem you have missed the point I was trying to convey. I am not saying that those prophecies in relation to the coming of Elijah have not! Happened. It most certainly has happened in the person of John the Baptist. And therefore the Messiah that was expected also came in the person of Jesus.
But my point is that “how it was expected to happen” it did not happen in the way the Jew’s were expecting it to happen! They believed that Elijah of hundreds of years before the arrival of Jesus would come himself in person before the advent of Jesus the Messiah.
But this prophecy was fulfilled in the person of John the Baptist the cousin of Jesus who was born a few before Jesus.
So he was given the title Elijah therefore he came as Elijah in the spirit of Elijah meaning ‘he possessed the same qualities of Elijah, but he was a different person, ‘.
The whole point to all this discussion, on Elijah is based on that the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat believes that Jesus survived death on the cross. And therefore the second advent of the messiah will take place in the person of someone else, just like John the Baptist was the fulfilment of the coming of Elijah, the second coming of Jesus will take place by someone else. That is why Jesus said” for I tell you, you will not see me again, again until you say,’blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
We need to break this up:
For I tell you, Jesus telling his disciples
You- the disciples
Will not see ‘me’ again until ‘you’ say- Jesus is telling his disciples ‘he’ won’t be coming back. ‘you’ the disciples, They will only realise that the second coming has happened when ‘they’ say blessed is ‘he’ meaning someone else ‘who comes’ who comes in the name of the Lord. In other words a different person who will possess the same and similar qualities as Jesus he will come in his name and he will be the fulfilment of the second coming.
In relation to Jesus’s Death I will discuss this later.
Noor
Ps I have assignments so I won’t be responding quickly.0 -
Exactly, it didn't happen in the way the Jews were expecting it. Having said that Jesus still foot the bill of Messiah. It is possible that Jesus did fulfil the prophesies, but in a different way than people first thought the Messiah would.
This does not render the Gospel false.0 -
Exactly, it didn't happen in the way the Jews were expecting it. Having said that Jesus still foot the bill of Messiah. It is possible that Jesus did fulfil the prophesies, but in a different way than people first thought the Messiah would.
Bingo! Sohe "jesus"fulfiled the prophecies of the coming of messiah in that way that people (jews) did not expect. Similerly and again the prophecys will be fulfilled in the second coming in a way that Chriatians do not expect.:):):) Meaning someone else will come and not Jesus!0 -
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Exactly, it didn't happen in the way the Jews were expecting it. Having said that Jesus still foot the bill of Messiah. It is possible that Jesus did fulfil the prophesies, but in a different way than people first thought the Messiah would.
This does not render the Gospel false.
please tell me where have I said that Jesus was not the Messiah it is very simple. Jesus is the Messiah
question did that Elijah who came 2,500 years ago come back yes or no. that Elijah who is mentioned in book of Kings?
who said the Gospel was false?
noor0 -
noor tkd master wrote: »please tell me where have I said that Jesus was not the Messiah it is very simple. Jesus is the Messiah
question did that Elijah who came 2,500 years ago come back yes or no. that Elijah who is mentioned in book of Kings?
noor
You know surely, that the prophetic Elijah had to come before Jesus for Him to be the Messiah?
In the Gospel of Luke it is explained how John the Baptist filled this role:Luke 1:17 wrote:and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”
However, Elijah also appeared at the Transfiguration with Jesus and Moses:Matthew 17:1-3 wrote:And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him0 -
How? That doesn't make a scrap of sense Yusif. The Messiah was Jesus, and the New Testament claims that Jesus will return.0
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How? That doesn't make a scrap of sense Yusif. The Messiah was Jesus, and the New Testament claims that Jesus will return.
The point that you are failing to grasp at any level dear brother is that history shows us quite clearly that when a Prophet is prophesied to return it does not mean that literal prophet but it simply means one who will posses similar qualities. Elijah said he would return and he did but retuned only in that way that one came who was similar to him in qualities and character. Elijah died a natural death like all human beings. In the same way Jesus said he would return. This is not literal but just means that someone shall come with similar qualities and character because Jesus dies a natural death. That Messiah who is to come will be given the title Jesus just like John the Baptist was given the title Elijah. History has shown this to be a strong possibility that “re-advent” will happen in this way again.
The Jews were taking the prophecies about Elijah literally but Jesus was telling them that it was to happen another way. Now as Jesus said I am telling you that Jesus will come in another way to what you believe. So do not discount this possibility of you will meet the same faith as the Jews and wait for that messiah that has already come.
That is my point brother.:)0 -
Yusif: The only issue is the Bible says that it will be Jesus who will return. This according to Christians would mark the end of the world. Before this time it tells us to reject anyone who claims that they are the Messiah.Matthew 24:20 wrote:Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.0
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Yusif: The only issue is the Bible says that it will be Jesus who will return. This according to Christians would mark the end of the world. Before this time it tells us to reject anyone who claims that they are the Messiah.
Jesus warned rightly against those who claim to be prophets and warned believers not to go onto them. But along with that he also gave signs of when he would come so people could recognize him and know he is not a false Prophet;
"Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'(Matthew 24:29-30)[/font]
So here Jesus is telling his disciples the sign of his read-advent as a major sign.
So here we have a sign which will tell us that he has come. This prophecy has already happened. In April 1894 there was eclipse of the Moon and Sun in the east and one month later in the west. Which came after Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) claimed to be the Messiah awaited.
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Mathew 24. So here Jesus says that the son of man will come from the east. Where is east of Jerusalem? India is directly east and that is where Jesus is saying here that the sign shall come from and it has. The sign has been fulfilled and the son of man has come.:)
Last point about the end of the world Jesus said "world without end":D0 -
Jesus is discussing the direction and visibility of lightning, not about the origin of the leader of the Ahmadi Muslims.
Again context is key.Matthew 24:31 wrote:And He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I'm guessing this didn't happen though?0 -
You know surely, that the prophetic Elijah had to come before Jesus for Him to be the Messiah?
In the Gospel of Luke it is explained how John the Baptist filled this role:
However, Elijah also appeared at the Transfiguration with Jesus and Moses:
So you agree, that it was not Elijah who came first 2,500 years ago. So that prophecy was fulfilled by someone else? And that person was John the Baptist?
As far as the transfiguration is concerned that is where Jesus met with that Elijah who came 500 years before and indeed that is where he was told everything.
Noor0 -
Jesus is discussing the direction and visibility of lightning, not about the origin of the leader of the Ahmadi Muslims.
Again context is key.
Context is key. So is sanity.
I am shocked. I was hoping for an intelligent response. So Jesus was giving a class on the study of lightning? Since when did lightning come across horizontally? I am really truly surprised at this thing that you cannot even listen to your own answer brother. Please re-read what you said and then take a silent moment and to re-process that and reflect on that answer.
Clearly Jesus said that as you will see lightning come from the east to the west so also shall you see the son of man coming. So he is telling the direction of the re-advent. East is where the sign shall come as the son of man shall come from there.
We should all learn to open our minds to other possibilities. The Jews are still waiting for Jesus 2,000 years after he has come. And Christians will still be awaiting until the end of time because I believe that he has returned in the person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.:)0 -
Jesus is discussing the direction and visibility of lightning, not about the origin of the leader of the Ahmadi Muslims.
Again context is key.
I'm guessing this didn't happen though?
No! This is incorrect! The whole Matthew 24 is about the second coming and Jesus is using clear language to describe how mankind can recognise his second advent. That is why he gave certain signs which when man see’s them unfolding they will know that the Second Advent has happened.
Jesus warned that many people will claim to be the Christ, but don’t listen to them. But in the same breath he tells us where we will find the second coming.
“For as lighting comes from the east and shines as far the west, so will be the coming of the son of man.”
This is very simple language Jesus is saying that when you see a teaching that will come from the east and it will spread on the futurist part of west. There you will find my second coming. In other words the second coming will fulfilled by another person just like John the Baptist and just like John the Baptist he will born with power and spirit of Jesus.
In Matthew 24 v 28 “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together”
This is so clear, when hear someone claiming to be the Messiah and his teaching comes from the East and all the signs are with him, and he is telling mankind that he is the second advent of Jesus and it is on the authority from God. Then we must take note of this.
why would Jesus be discussing the direction of lighting?
Noor0 -
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Except for the notion that the one who will come back will be the Lamb who was crucified for the sins of the world according to Revelations. Was the leader of the Ahmadi Muslims crucified for our sake? Can he take away our sins?
I'm assuming the answer to be no. The leader of the Ahmadi Muslims fails on the Matthew 24 criteria, because not all people know him and accept his authority, he did not appear for all to see from east to west.
Were the elect gathered up by God after the coming of the leader of the Ahmadi Muslims? Well considering that we are all still here we should be:
1) Extremely worried
2) Extremely skeptical of it having happened.
Jesus is discussing the direction of the lightning because He is discussing the extent that He will cover when He returns. I.E The whole world will see Him.
It's good to be careful with language, other verses could be used to imply this such as:Psalm 103:12 wrote:as far as the east is from the west,
so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
Of course this is referring to distance though, as is the former.0 -
So jackass so many translations and so varied from mentioning the words “east” and “west” to no mentioning them at all. It seems there are so many translations “bibles” you can really pichkand choose, mix and match. There is a big difference between “from” and “near” and “as” isn’t there.0
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Yusuf Mirza wrote: »So jackass so many translations and so varied from mentioning the words “east” and “west” to no mentioning them at all. It seems there are so many translations “bibles” you can really pichkand choose, mix and match. There is a big difference between “from” and “near” and “as” isn’t there.
Yusif: I could say the same about the Qur'an. This isn't a valid argument considering that we have Greek manuscripts from the New Testament still with us, and Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament.
I've explained why I disagree with your interpretation. Let's not take inaccurate potshots at eachother, I want a proper discussion.
Pick and choose match? I'm merely showing you that the usage between east and west is referring to distance, not that Jesus will necessarily return from the East. It could happen though.
However, it was not referring to the leader of the Ahmadi Muslims, and I have to see evidence that it was, or that Revelations is.0 -
theres a great running battle between these two. but faith is about truth, The one question as chirstians or Muslims or Hindus or what ever faith you believe is that would god lie to you. Isee that on christian and muslim tv people who claim that god speaks to them direct. The pope does it yet sin and evil has rotted the catholic church, Through sex abuse money and power. The mormons claim that jesus came to america and that joesph smith was give gloden tablets and sliver glasses to read them and that there where agent tribes that ruled america 1000s of years ago yet there is not one bit of evedance to support there teaching. If jesus hand picked 12 appostles to spread his word why do we only have gospels of james and peter who where his friends yet paul who never met him has more influence in the new testament than they do where are the other 9 gospels and in islam why do women not have the same rights as men . there was only one heaven before islam now theres 7. why did mohammad delare war on those who didnt belive. why do we place our faith on books
why not put faith in ourselves. I belive that god wants use to look past the lies of humans and stand up for injustice what ever faith is been hurt.
so while you bicker about what god wants there are people out there doing what needs to be done to help those in need and alot of them dont belive in god. on a personal point i dont believe in the bible and the quran i belive in truth and for me the one who speaks the truth in jesus weather you believe hes gods son or not to me does not matter all he asked you was to open your hearts and love one another as he loved and he didnt ask for anything back0 -
crosstrainer1: You're the second person to argue this.
Just because sin has affected the Catholic Church, doesn't mean that the claims of Jesus Christ are false.
Faith in ourselves is useless, when we have mere faith in ourselves, we can become selfish, conceited, and arrogant. Looking to the greatest good (God) gives us continued ambition in life to better serve Him, and to grow as people in the process. I believe that this is the greatest lie of all.
Actually we have texts from Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude.
James and Jude were two of the brothers of Christ. Not all wrote because no doubt they were serving their churches, many were also martyred early for the Gospel.
Where did Jesus say that all the Apostles had to write?
Part of the reason I am involved in what I am involved, is because I believe that seeking the truth is better than just accepting what isn't.crosstrainer1 wrote:all he asked you was to open your hearts and love one another as he loved and he didnt ask for anything back
This isn't true. Jesus asked us to serve Him, and by serving Him serving the Father and other people around us. Jesus asked us to believe, and be transformed by Him forever. Although what you say is true, it is not the whole Gospel.0 -
Yusif: I could say the same about the Qur'an. This isn't a valid argument considering that we have Greek manuscripts from the New Testament still with us, and Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament.
I've explained why I disagree with your interpretation. Let's not take inaccurate potshots at eachother, I want a proper discussion.
Pick and choose match? I'm merely showing you that the usage between east and west is referring to distance, not that Jesus will necessarily return from the East. It could happen though.
However, it was not referring to the leader of the Ahmadi Muslims, and I have to see evidence that it was, or that Revelations is.
I want to add a point in regarding the authenticity of the bible. Personally I feel it should be the last area of discussion as there are many other areas that should be discussed. Anyone who has studied Biblical theology knows! That the Bible has not escaped change; they know that we don’t even have the originals not even copies of copies of copies of the originals. Therefore we are at the mercy of the scribes. But indeed through Textual Criticism we can ascertain what is possibly correct and what errors have crept in. We know through this method of Textual Criticism that errors have happened.
Whereas Higher criticism deals with the Authorship and date of the composition and historical value of a given Biblical document Lower Criticism deals only with form of words and the text of that document.
And without doubt many scribes made mistakes and indeed many of the alterations could have been unintentional slip of the pen. But we know that unintentional errors did take place. But Errors of omission and addition did happen! And are very common in all the manuscripts. But there are many cases of scribes who found what they thought were possible errors in the text or they felt that it was not in line with another text so they would correct it.
Many scribes deliberately added words to texts and deliberately omitted verses Professor R.Lightfoot is a distinguished scholar of the New Testament he says ‘ Errors of Omission and addition are common in all manuscripts words sometimes are omitted by a copyist for no apparent reason’ (How we got the Bible second edition Neil R Lightfoot p 61)
‘What presents a more serious problem to textual critic are the variant readings ‘which have been purposefully inserted by the scribes’ (ibid p62)
If someone wants to go and see these omissions and additions ect, Read “ A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament second Edition by Bruce M Metzger) Bruce M Metzger is a scholar on Greek New Testament he has written other books on the subject such as ‘ The Text of the New Testament, Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration Oxford 1964)
He says in ‘A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament ‘none of the original documents of the Bible is extant today, and the existing copies differ from one another. (Introduction).
In this book you will see exactly where in the Greek Texts, from the Greek! were the additions and in insertions are and the deliberate changing of words and sentences by the scribes.
Some examples of this from the Bible:
Matthew 17:21 will not be found in the main text of RSV 1971 you will find in the footnotes and in the footnotes it reads ‘ other ancient authorities insert verse 21.
Matthew 21: 44 Missing footnotes other ancient authorities add verse 44.
Mark 9:44 & 46 Missing footnotes verses 44 &46 which are identical with verse 48 are omitted by the best ancient authorities
Mark 15: 28 missing foot notes other ancient authorities add v28
John 7:53 missing footnotes other ancient authorities omit 7:53 and 8:11
John 8:11 missing footnotes other ancient authorities omit 8:11
Luke 23:17 missing footnotes other ancient authorities add verse 17
Luke 22: 43 & 44 missing footnotes other ancient authorities add verses 43&44
Acts 28:29 missing footnotes other ancient authorities add verse 28
Acts 8:37 missing footnotes other ancient authorities add all or most of verse 37
Now what I have shown you are only the tip of the Iceberg of missing verses and verses which was added in my own personal research I have found! Up to three hundred missing and additions in the New Testament.
Now let me explain what is meant by ‘Ancient Authorities’ this simply means the oldest copies and we don’t even have the oldest copy! We have several copies of copies of copies! That means we don’t even have the oldest copy of the Bible.
Please bear in mind these missing verses and the verses that were added are from the Greek Texts not from translations of English.
In the end is quite clear that the Bible has been changed and indeed scribes have put their own views into the New Testament and this is a fact! Anyone who has studied Theology and are honest knows this.
In the end I want share a verse from the Holy Qur’an“[5:14] فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِمْ مِّيْثَاقَهُمْ لَعَنّٰهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوْبَهُمْ قٰسِيَةً* ۚ يُّحَرِّفُوْنَ الْـكَلِمَ عَنْ مَّوَاضِعِهٖ*ۙ وَنَسُوْا حَظًّا مِّمَّا ذُكِّرُوْا بِهٖۚ وَلَا تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلٰى خَآٮِٕنَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ اِلَّا قَلِيْلاً مِّنْهُمْ*ۚ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَاصْفَحْ*ؕ اِنَّ اللّٰهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِيْنَ ]Noor
So, because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them, and have hardened their hearts. They pervert the words from their proper places and have forgotten a good part of that with which they were exhorted. And thou wilt not cease to discover treachery on their part, except in a few of them, So pardon them and turn away from them. Surely, Allah loves those who do good. (5:140 -
crosstrainer1 wrote: »theres a great running battle between these two. but faith is about truth, The one question as chirstians or Muslims or Hindus or what ever faith you believe is that would god lie to you. Isee that on christian and muslim tv people who claim that god speaks to them direct. The pope does it yet sin and evil has rotted the catholic church, Through sex abuse money and power. The mormons claim that jesus came to america and that joesph smith was give gloden tablets and sliver glasses to read them and that there where agent tribes that ruled america 1000s of years ago yet there is not one bit of evedance to support there teaching. If jesus hand picked 12 appostles to spread his word why do we only have gospels of james and peter who where his friends yet paul who never met him has more influence in the new testament than they do where are the other 9 gospels and in islam why do women not have the same rights as men . there was only one heaven before islam now theres 7. why did mohammad delare war on those who didnt belive. why do we place our faith on books
why not put faith in ourselves. I belive that god wants use to look past the lies of humans and stand up for injustice what ever faith is been hurt.
so while you bicker about what god wants there are people out there doing what needs to be done to help those in need and alot of them dont belive in god. on a personal point i dont believe in the bible and the quran i belive in truth and for me the one who speaks the truth in jesus weather you believe hes gods son or not to me does not matter all he asked you was to open your hearts and love one another as he loved and he didnt ask for anything back
Friend firstly: why do people when they talk about Islam, they always refer to either women or wars?
Have you asked any Muslim women does Islam oppress her? Thousands of women are converting to Islam and many of them are single. Many of these women are highly educated from being Doctors, Police officers, Barristers, teachers and much more. And many are Irish, English.
Islam does not oppress women!. Islam gives great respect to women!. How many times do Muslims have repeat its self! The wars that the Holy Prophet (saw) fought were defence. If he did not take up defence and by the way with authority from Almighty Allah. You got to remember for over 13 years he and his companions suffered severe persecution and a boycott for three years no food water was allowed to be given or passed to them.
And yet when they migrated to Medina with the intention to live a peaceful life, the Meccans declared war on them! So they had to fight to survive. Would you not defend your family loved ones or friends if you were being attacked! Of course you would.
Now listen to the Jesus who you believe in “And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “ Nothing.” 36- He said to them “ But now let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag, And let him who has no sword sell his mantel and buy one..... “ look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them “ it is enough.” (Luke 35-38)
Interesting! Jesus telling his disciples to buy swords and when they show him that they have two! Swords he said fine. Now in those days 1st century Palestine it was common for men to carry swords for defence yet you object to the Holy Prophet (saw) defending himself and his family and community .
You spoke about truth! Have you ever read the life of the Holy Prophet (saw) and how he spoke about love, Kindness, Justice, caring, speaking truth and much , much more.
Please research more on Islam. If you would like to know more about the Holy Prophet (saw) and women’s rights in Islam I would gladly send you those books.
Noor0 -
noor - the differences tend to be in phasiology. Reading a passage from one translation, will generally be the same as in another.
I have been courteous in the respect that I haven't involved authenticity issues from the Qur'an at all in this thread. I easily could copy and paste what other people have found. I'll leave you to do your own independent research, and I'll leave myself to do proper research first.
This isn't the point. The point is whether or not the Ahmadi Muslims can claim a second coming. In my humble opinion they cannot, because they don't have any backup based on what the Jews and Christians said the Messiah would be.
That's a simply cut issue.0 -
noor - the differences tend to be in phasiology. Reading a passage from one translation, will generally be the same as in another.
I have been courteous in the respect that I haven't involved authenticity issues from the Qur'an at all in this thread. I easily could copy and paste what other people have found. I'll leave you to do your own independent research, and I'll leave myself to do proper research first.
This isn't the point. The point is whether or not the Ahmadi Muslims can claim a second coming. In my humble opinion they cannot, because they don't have any backup based on what the Jews and Christians said the Messiah would be.
That's a simply cut issue.
Dear Sir, I have no idea what point you are trying to make! By using words like Phasiology or did you mean Phraseology?
And why are you talking about reading a passage from one translation will generally be the same as the other?
As far as you being courteous I thank you for that. But indeed all men and women who claim to be God fearing should be. And also they should always tell the truth and always be honest!
As for your accusation of copying and pasting let me tell you in very clear terms! The references that I quoted are from books that I have in my private library which now numbers nearly one thousand books, on all religions, Philosophy, History mostly religious I have over 60 Bibles and commentaries both in Greek and Hebrew and Arabic. The bible Quotes have come from my own personal Bible RSV which I have for over twenty years.
I don’t need to copy of paste as I have been studying Bible for over twenty five years, first as a Christian and then as a Muslim. I have graduated in Theology (Christian) and also spent further six years in Islamic Theology and Graduated. I am presently trying to complete a Masters in Theology. My area of interest, and I want to specialise in Biblical Theology and Historical theology.
So with great respect, I am not in need of copying and pasting! But it would seem you are ignoring the very academic fact about the Bible. I still remember my first lecture on Biblical studies from the professor of Biblical studies, who is also a Theologian. “ let me make one thing clear to all of you who are going to study Bible if you think that there is no errors or omissions of additions in the Bible’ ‘then let me tell you they are errors and omissions and additions in the Bible”.
I have made it very clear that all references are found in the Greek Manuscripts not the English! In other words if you go to the ‘Greek Manuscripts’ you will find in the Greek those missing verse and those verses which have been added and those verses were the scribes deliberately added his own understanding of a particular verse and added to it himself. Meaning it did not come from God!
You Sir if you are a Rev, Pastor, Theologian. Then you should be brave enough to admit it! Rather than acting like a politician. I urge you!! to please do research on the issues of additions and omissions and so forth and please let me know you end result because it can only end in you admitting the very point I and many before me have made. One point I would like to make I have the greatest respect for the Bible and indeed I love the Bible.
One thing you learn as a student of Theology is you have to learn to read a lot, and research a lot. So all of my comments are based on over 25 years of doing exactly that. And even today I am doing it. And something else, you accept as you walk the path of seeking the truth is! Never be afraid of the Truth where ever you may find it.
As far as the authenticity of the Holy Qur’an is concerned well good luck!! In trying to question its authenticity many great Christian scholars have tried in the past and Failed!!!
My comments were based only on the authenticity of the Bible not on the beliefs and claims of the Ahmadiyya Community.
But indeed the founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community can be proven to the Promised Messiah (as) which the world is awaiting both from the Jewish Traditions and the New Testament. And you Sir have been told The Promised Messiah has Come!!!. And please remember he had to come sometime! And I convey in the name of Almighty Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful that the Promised Messiah (as) come. Now it is up to you, if you want to try to find out, if it is true or not!
Peace “ Love for all hatred for none”
Noor0 -
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How can this person be proven to be the Second Coming?
We're going to have a fundemental disagreement here. This cannot be consistent with Judeo-Christian revelation, if this person is not Jesus Christ.You Sir if you are a Rev, Pastor, Theologian. Then you should be brave enough to admit it!
I'm a lay person. However, the authenticity of the Bible is unparalleled, no other ancient book compares to it.
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6068
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html#Bdy06OmL9OF9
http://www.christianity.co.nz/bible-3.htm0
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