cost of web development

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 4:34pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Your arrogance and dishonesty is very unpleasant.

Put the handbags away.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Just to shut you up, here's the first result I found in Google: http://e-design.com.ua/Default.aspx

That's crap mate.

Anyway, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Best of luck to you.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 4:34pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Huh ? How can you survive as an Irish web developer if you tell people that Irish web developers are dishonest and outsourcers are cheaper ?

Will you please read my posts, or at least stop taking me out of context.

I said any Irish web developer who claims you cannot get quality web design from outsourcing is being dishonest.

And a question : if you describe yourself to a potential client as a developer, and take on their site, do they know you're outsourcing ? Are you honest enough to tell them ?

I don't sneakily outsource work, claiming it was done in Ireland. I manage outsourced projects if the company wants it outsourced.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 4:36pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

That's crap mate.

Anyway, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Best of luck to you.

Are you for real?

Did you look at their portfolio?

They are excellent.

But of course, you were always going to say they were crap, weren't you?

I agree you should stop posting, you're making a fool of yourself.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 4:37pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

I said any Irish web developer who claims you cannot get quality web design from outsourcing is being dishonest.

Are you saying I'm dishonest because I can't find the standard I'm looking for in overseas companies? Despite the fact that I would gladly outsource work to them if I could?

Clueless. Go snatch a purse.

codecrunchers · 08-01-2009 4:37pm

CMSMadeSimple is my ten cents on the CMS. But you don't sound like you need one. What you're looking for is a a start-up, a company eager to get some work in. There are a multitude of them operating in Ireland (and elsewhere) - get a quote, knock a little off and see if they are still eager.

If you're happy with PHP, HTML, CSS & JS then I can't see why you don't stick it together yourself, a little Googling and time you should be up and running.

Alan

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 4:37pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Why did you have to Google them ?

To prove it is simple to find companies who offer quality outsourcing.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You said you'd been involved in outsourcing for years, so surely you can point us to those outsourcers you have dealt with yourself and also show us the results that they achieved for you ?

I'd rather not get my employers/contractors involved in this childish conversation.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 4:39pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Are you saying I'm dishonest because I can't find the standard I'm looking for in overseas companies? Despite the fact that I would gladly outsource work to them if I could?

Clueless. Go snatch a purse.

Stop lying, seriously, no matter what evidence I provide you will say it's crap. It's obvious to everyone that is the case.

I don't want to argue with you, as it is pointless.

The OP can make up his own mind.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 4:40pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

They are excellent...

Let's leave it at that shall we.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 4:43pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Let's leave it at that shall we.

You are Ken Stanley, right? Judging from your portfolio, you cannot compete with them. You need a reality check.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 4:45pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

You are Ken Stanley, right? Judging from your portfolio, you cannot compete with them. You need a reality check.

What portfolio?

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 4:45pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Will you please read my posts, or at least stop taking me out of context.

I said any Irish web developer who claims you cannot get quality web design from outsourcing is being dishonest.

No, you said:

AARRRGH wrote: »

don't let Irish web developers trick you into thinking you have to use an Irish company

The implication is that "Irish web developers" are out to "trick" people.

Incidentally, re misquoting, Ken said:

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

The odd time, you may get a really good job done really cheap but these projects are few and far between.

So even Ken - who's highlighted the fact that cheap is not necessarily good (FACT, regardless of outsourcing or not), has not said "you cannot get quality web design from outsourcing".

I'll repeat his quote : you may get a really good job done really cheap.

And you still imply that he's being dishonest ?

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 4:48pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'd rather not get my employers/contractors involved in this childish conversation.

Despite the fact that the general gist of that aspect of the discussion is "I don't know of any quality outsourcers, do you know any ?"

If it were me and the standard and pricing were as good as you say, I'd be glad of the referral.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 4:48pm

@Ken: this is you, right? http://www.magenta-three.com/

@Liam: you are taking me and Ken out of context. You need to read the entire posts to see his tone is "outsourcing is crap" and my tone is "it is dishonest to say that". You have to keep our quotes in context. And I don't want to bring my employer and contractors into it. Can you just accept all this and move on?

I think we've all said enough. The OP can make up his mind!

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 4:57pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

@Ken: this is you, right? http://www.magenta-three.com/

That's the company I work for. If you don't like the work, that's entirely your prerogative. A little subjectivity would help.

AARRRGH wrote: »

you are taking me and Ken out of context. You need to read the entire posts to see his tone is "outsourcing is crap"

No, you're taking me out of context. I'm completely open to outsourcing and I'm asking you (begging you at this stage actually) to prove me wrong. In your 10 years experience with outsourcing, surely you must know a few companies that are doing quality work at good rates. Why not show us who they are? I'm not asking because I want to go on some tirade... as I said, I'd be more than happy to send work their way. You seem to be completely missing my point here - which is that I haven't been able to find sufficient creative quality in any of these overseas companies. I'm not saying they don't exist. I just can't find them.

AARRRGH wrote: »

And I don't want to bring my employer and contractors into it.

You're happy to bring mine into it. Let's have a little transparency shall we? Who do you work for?

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think we've all said enough.

Probably.

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 5:01pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

@Liam: you are taking me and Ken out of context. You need to read the entire posts to see his tone is "outsourcing is crap" and my tone is "it is dishonest to say that". You have to keep our quotes in context. And I don't want to bring my employer and contractors into it.

I can see where you're coming from, but (a) Ken isn't as blinkered as you're implying (see quote above) and (b) outsourcing isn't the perfect answer to everything - there are as many, if not more, issues that CAN go wrong.

I'm not saying nothing goes wrong when using Irish companies, but likewise you need to accept that outsourcing isn't the bed of roses that you're making it out to be either.

Cost is only one factor, and you generally get what you pay for. If overheads are lower abroad, then costs should be lower, but you still need to be damn sure of decent results.

That's why I wanted links to ACTUAL outsourcers that YOU'VE dealt with and are happy with, and ideas of the costs in order to compare them to myself or other Irish web designers/developers to achieve the same result. There's no point linking to outsourcers no-one here has dealt with, no-one knows the prices of, or no-one knows the results of; whether they'll allow for expansion and scalability as a site evolves, whether they'll be using templates that they could sell to someone else, whether later "add-ons" would cost a fortune despite a tiny initial outlay.

Yes, all these could apply to some Irish companies too; so basically what I'm saying is that you need to compare like with like, and if THEN everything else is equal you CAN go with the lower cost.

So if Ken is guilty of simplifying it a bit by implying "outsourcing is usually bad", you're equally guilty of generalising "outsourcing is usually good and cheaper for the same result".

No witch-hunt, no arrogance. Just the facts of the matter.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 5:03pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

A little subjectivity would help.

Look who's talking! :pac:

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

No, you're taking me out of context. I'm completely open to outsourcing and I'm asking you (begging you at this stage actually) to prove me wrong. In your 10 years experience with outsourcing, surely you must know a few companies that are doing quality work at good rates.

I provided a link to an excellent outsourcing company which you dismissed immediately.

Do you want me to provide more links?

I get the feeling though that no matter what I say, you'll always think they're crap.

We've had this conversation many times over the past few years.

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

You're happy to bring mine into it. Let's have a little transparency shall we? Who do you work for?

You are the one claiming you can't find the quality your own company supposedly offers, hence why it makes sense to link to your website.

I am claiming outsourcing offers quality, and I linked to an example.

My employer is irrelevant.

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Probably.

I agree.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 5:04pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's why I wanted links to ACTUAL outsourcers that YOU'VE dealt with and are happy with, and ideas of the costs in order to compare them to myself or other Irish web designers/developers to achieve the same result.

I won't be continuing this debate until he does so to be honest as the guy 1) hasn't proven his point at all and 2) seems to be hell bent on attacking me personally. Troll tbh.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 5:05pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Do you want me to provide more links?

Yes. See Liam's point above.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 5:06pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

I won't be continuing this debate until he does so to be honest as the guy 1) hasn't proven his point at all and 2) seems to be hell bent on attacking me personally. Troll tbh.

I'm a troll because I've proved you wrong? Seriously, will you get a grip.

My own contractors are irrelavant, but I assure you they are excellent. I would not have this opinion if they were crap.

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 5:06pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

I provided a link to an excellent outsourcing company which you dismissed immediately.

How do you know they're "excellent" (to work with, their results) if you've never dealt with them ? Have you spoken to their clients ?

You said you "did a quick Google search" and they came up.

If I do a quick Google search for a car mechanic, and get one I know nothing about, could I post here that they are "excellent" ?

AARRRGH wrote: »

My own contractors are irrelavant, but I assure you they are excellent

They aren't because they're the ones that you've experience of and would therefore back up your argument and make it bulletproof. We could then accept your assessment of them.

Mind you, if you use the word "excellent" for a company you just found on Google an hour ago with no knowledge of working with them, it would appear to dilute your use of that word.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 5:08pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

My own contractors are irrelavant, but I assure you they are excellent.

Okay, in the absence of any proof whatsoever, I guess I'll just have to take your word for it.

heggie · 08-01-2009 5:32pm

sadly these threads always end up like this. There is always someone who comes in, with little or no experience in what they are talking about and basically ruins the thread. I can see a posting ban on costing like the hosting talk ban coming in!

yeraulone · 08-01-2009 5:45pm

so, how much is a site then?

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 5:46pm

yeraulone wrote: »

so, how much is a site then?

50 groats.

tricky D · 08-01-2009 5:47pm

Jeez...

This happens everytime the outsourcing 'debate' is brought into play. The thread descends to schoolyard level with accusations of lying, trickery and my favourite, racism, though Ken nipped that in the bud as that inane trap was being setup - lol. This is all unhelpful for the OP and makes the industry look childish.

OP as your site is a few pages, each page is going to have a good deal of attention paid to it. If you were rolling out a site with say a listing of a 1000 different types of widgets, then outsourcing would be an idea for the donkey work. But you're not, you're doing a few pages for marketing, so your going to need to spend a large portion of time on getting the message right. This is easier to do with someone local as communication will be more effective and knowledge of your target market will be deeper.

As usual some general principles of business apply, so:

You'll likely get what you pay for
Shop around and research properly
Using your business plan, generate a Request for Proposal and look for professional responses
Talk to people who have had sites done for them - get opinions
Remember it's about the business first and foremost

good luck

heggie · 08-01-2009 6:02pm

tricky D wrote: »

makes the industry look childish.

most of it isn't coming from the industry though. Any given person who has, or has thought about outsourcing doesn't speak for the industry.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 6:04pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How do you know they're "excellent" (to work with, their results) if you've never dealt with them ? Have you spoken to their clients ?

You said you "did a quick Google search" and they came up.

If I do a quick Google search for a car mechanic, and get one I know nothing about, could I post here that they are "excellent" ?

Liam, if you read back a few pages you will see Ken said it is near impossible to get quality web design from emerging economies. I posted a link to a company in an emerging economy who have a portfolio showing they are good web designers.

Do they treat their clients well? I have no idea, but judging by the amount of clients they have it is fair to say they are probably doing a good job.

heggie wrote: »

sadly these threads always end up like this. There is always someone who comes in, with little or no experience in what they are talking about and basically ruins the thread. I can see a posting ban on costing like the hosting talk ban coming in!

I have little or no experience in what I'm talking about? I've been designing websites since 1995 and involved in outsourcing for a long time. I would not have a strong opinion on outsourcing if it was useless. I consistently see it work - it is cheap and the quality is good.

Yes, if you want to work with an Irish person and meet them face-to-face, by all means choose an Irish company, but if you have a very limited budget you should consider outsourcing.

AND, if you bothered to read the entire thread, you will see I gave a small piece of helpful advice, and was then hit with the usual "outsourcing is crap" comments.

I find it really unfair when people try to suggest poor countries aren't capable of quality web development or web design. It just isn't true. Wealth is not what determines technical or artistic talent. And it is utterly arrogant to think your way is the only way - what you think is artistic another person will think is crap - it's all subjective.

All I am saying is consider outsourcing as it is a cheap alternative to hiring an Irish company. I am not forcing anyone to use outsourcing.

heggie · 08-01-2009 6:08pm

i'm not suggesting that, but imo places that offer their services on the various outsource websites are largely rubbish. BTW I have read the thread.

Can you show us an example of when you've seen it work?

Every single thread like this in the history of boards, not one person has ever shown a high quality website that was produced for peanuts, even after all their talk.

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 6:09pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Liam, if you read back a few pages you will see Ken said it is near impossible to get quality web design from emerging economies.

No he didn't - "near impossible" is misquoting him. I quoted that post already, so I won't repeat it. Check back to post #42.

Do they treat their clients well? I have no idea, but judging by the amount of clients they have it is fair to say they are probably doing a good job.

The only way of knowing 100% is to deal with them yourself, first-hand.

I find it really unfair when people try to suggest poor countries aren't capable of quality web development or web design. It just isn't true. Wealth is not what determines technical or artistic talent.

Neither is price.

P.S. A link worth checking : http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fe-design.com.ua%2FDefault.aspx&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&accept=image%2Fgif%2C+image%2Fx-xbitmap%2C+image%2Fjpeg%2C+image%2Fpjpeg%2C+application%2Fx-ms-application%2C+application%2Fvnd.ms-xpsdocument%2C+application%2Fxaml%2Bxml%2C+application%2Fx-ms-xbap%2C+application%2Fx-shockwave-flash%2C+*%2F*&accept-language=en-ie&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.606

smemon · 08-01-2009 6:11pm

Outsourcing saves money - bottom line.

You don't get the same face to face service and peace of mind, but that's the risk you take when outsourcing and in most cases, it's a risk worth taking.

cost of web development

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