Dell to cut 1,900 jobs in Limerick

billy the squid

But at least you don't have to worry about butter vouchers, they don't do them any more.

lfc1892

billy the squid wrote: »

But at least you don't have to worry about butter vouchers, they don't do them any more.

now I've got nothing to look forward to!

Sunn

ninty9er wrote: »

Not meaning ot be smart, but that would cause...anarchy, and we'd ALL be unemployed living in caves. In any case, why should Michael Dell, who put his neck on the line to build a global corporation get paid the same as a person who sticks the Windows™ sticker on a laptop in China.

did you even read a page of that topic?

why should michael dell be allowed to exploit workers in china? Is his/her contribution not as important in producing a product compared with someone with the idea?

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_48/b4011001.htm

Dell is not evil, nor is Coca Cola

Considering the exploitation and both dell and coca cola particularly in the far east I beg to differ. Sadly its become an acceptable evil in our cases.

Again I suggest reading the topic I posted earlier if you have any questions they will most likely have been answered.


again off topic...

TestTransmission

Sunn wrote: »

again off topic...

You're the one who has thrown this thread off topic,,what do you work at Sunn?

Berty

Sunn wrote: »

Considering the exploitation and both dell and coca cola particularly in the far east I beg to differ. Sadly its become an acceptable evil in our cases.




again off topic...

I mentioned Coca Cola to see if you were one of "those" people who think the corporations are evil and exploitative and you took the bait. Im done discussing this with you on that basis. I think that you have something with Dell and Coca Cola and your views and my views will always differ.

Berty

Let me just throw a small bit of calm into the thread. Take a few minutes out of today and watch this

cornbb

Consumer capitalism is far from perfect but lets face it, without it we'd all be living in the trees flinging sh*t at each other. Companies like Dell are soul-less, on the whole, I'm not fan of huge multinationals but they are part of the reason we have things we take for granted like disposable income and leisure time. In Limerick they have been sustaining hundreds or thousands of households for many years, it is unfortunate that they are leaving but it is not their responsibility to stay here.

My comiserations to anyone who is affected like this, I can't imagine what the mood must be like in Limerick now.

cooperguy

samum28 wrote: »

U c the point is that we migrated because we didn't want to work in Poland so heading back there is bit..... pointless?...

I assumed that most emigrated because there was no work as opposed to not wanting to work in the country?

sunn wrote:

I think you have missed my point, i was comparing the wage to the people in the higher echelons of the dell corporation and its global intake of money.

I see no problem in people trying to get a equal share in overall profit particularly in those that actually manufacture and assemble the product.

People are paid in relation to the value they bring to a company. The people who do a small percentage of assembly of a few thousand computers per day (which included me until recently) obviously get payed less than the people who secure large orders/deliver massive cost savings etc. You are payed for your skills and what you bring to the company. Not a hard concept to grasp. Would you consider paying the same rate to the kid who cuts your grass as to the carpenter who fitted your kitchen?

DarkJager

You're not getting away that easily you snakey ****!


http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnmhgbeyau/

Top European officials are to investigate a €50m aid package the Polish Government used to attract computer giant Dell away from Ireland, it was confirmed tonight.

The sweetener was agreed with senior executives at the US multinational as it looked to shift 1,900 jobs from its Irish manufacturing wing and open a new plant with a cheaper workforce in Lodz.

The European Commission said an in-depth investigation into how the deal was struck would be complete within six months.

Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes said there were doubts whether the lucrative deal passed strict rules on state aid.

“We need to investigate all the effects of this aid to verify that it contributes to regional development and to ensure that it will not reinforce Dell’s position or create significant capacity in a market on the decline in the EEA,” Mr Kroes said.

Concerned parties, including the Government, will be able to offer their views on the €50m package.

The EC said it would rule on the aid package by July.

Run_to_da_hills

Looks like the Sh*t is about to hit the fan if this is true.

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnmhgbeyau/

talkingclock

I'm just thinking what I would do in this situation. Would I go to work tomorrow? Would I do overtime if I'm asked to do? Would I try to achieve my targets? Would I make any efforts at all? Would I stay away from a little sabotage here and there... ("forgetting" to fix a screw). What do I have to loose? A job??? My ar5e...

I suppose the answer for me is a simple NO. I would be extremely frustrated, angry, depressed and would not feel to keep contributing to help DELL achieving more profit.

bazz26

talkingclock wrote: »

I'm just thinking what I would do in this situation. Would I go to work tomorrow? Would I do overtime if I'm asked to do? Would I try to achieve my targets? Would I make any efforts at all? Would I stay away from a little sabotage here and there... ("forgetting" to fix a screw). What do I have to loose? A job??? My ar5e...

I suppose the answer for me is a simple NO. I would be extremely frustrated, angry, depressed and would not feel to keep contributing to help DELL achieving more profit.

Unfortunately alot of the 1900 people who were told there jobs were gone today are probably working there a couple of years, with mortgages and families to feed. These people will still depend on their weekly wage, overtime and the redundancy package to tie them over hopefully until they can get another job. So these people I would imagine will not and cannot afford to put that in jepordy. These people will also need references from Dell for future employment, etc. So I would doubt the majority will burn their bridges at this point. Of course people who have only been there a short time may think differently.

DarkJager

Exactly. People there under 2 years have already walked from what I've heard, the rest just have to bite the bullet for the sake of the disgraceful redundancy package they've offered. I know I would be taking plenty of breaks, and doing work as slowly as I feel like. I don't think anybody in there is going to break their balls for this shower of bastards anymore.

daithicarr

The blame for this cant really be leveled at Dell its a multi national corporation , multinational corporations by their nature act like this.

think the main problem is the goveremnt handeling of the economy, the signs have been visible for all to see, Dell was bound to leave as we became uncompetative , and in the last few months its been clear that they were definitly leaving, but it seems little or nothing was done. it was clear Limerick and the region was over reliant on this oe company, but the goverment are only taking action when it slaps them in the face , they are reactive , not pro active.

and it remains to be seen if their reaction will produce any meaningful results

Sunn

You're the one who has thrown this thread off topic,,what do you work at Sunn?

I work in a spar shop although I am not really sure what difference that makes. Also I felt it was worthy of posting in the first instance as people seemed more angry at the "politicians" rather than being shafted by dell.

.
The only reason I mentioned Coca Cola to see if you were one of "those" people who think the corporations are evil and exploitative and you took the bait. Im done discussing this with you on that basis. I think that you have something with Dell and Coca Cola and your views and my views will always differ.

"those" people? Those corporations are exploitative, i fail to see how acknowledging this has turned me into one of "those". Whatever "that" is.

Consumer capitalism is far from perfect but lets face it, without it we'd all be living in the trees flinging sh*t at each other. Companies like Dell are soul-less, on the whole, I'm not fan of huge multinationals but they are part of the reason we have things we take for granted like disposable income and leisure time. In Limerick they have been sustaining hundreds or thousands of households for many years, it is unfortunate that they are leaving but it is not their responsibility to stay here.

Consumerism and capitalism have nothing to do with people wanting to co-operate, its that which lead us to actually stop flying excrement at each other and climb down off the tree. You seem to think we always had a capitalist society, its a very recent thing compared to human history.

People are paid in relation to the value they bring to a company. The people who do a small percentage of assembly of a few thousand computers per day (which included me until recently) obviously get payed less than the people who secure large orders/deliver massive cost savings etc. You are payed for your skills and what you bring to the company. Not a hard concept to grasp. Would you consider paying the same rate to the kid who cuts your grass as to the carpenter who fitted your kitchen?

workers are only paid a fraction of the overall wealth they actually create through their labour. While the rest is broken down for the "employing class" individuals while little or none of it filters down to the average worker.

Here is the topic if anyone would care to read it or ask anymore questions.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055009758

sorry mods.

Aidric

It's a massive blow for Limerick and the mid west region as a whole. I sympathise with those dell employees who have lost their jobs because they are going to find it very difficult to find new work in the manufacturing sector. This decision had been well flagged though. In a global recession Dell simply couldn't afford to sustain the Limerick cost base.

TripleAce

Think about it, if you had your own company and you could find a way to save on costs, what would you do?

Also for those thinking that companies take advantage of employees, why don't you just go ahead and open your own business (with all related risks) then? This way you won't have anybody "exploiting" you.

Said this I feel very sad for the families of the Dell employees who will be let go in the forthcoming months, and hope they will find a new job soon, however I don't understand why all act so surprised? I think we all knew this was coming - maybe not so soon, but it was just a matter of time.

acalmenvoy

talkingclock wrote: »

Would I stay away from a little sabotage here and there... ("forgetting" to fix a screw). What do I have to loose? A job??? My ar5e...

Note to self... Dont buy any Dell products in the next few months :rolleyes:

talkingclock

acalmenvoy wrote: »

Note to self... Dont buy any Dell products in the next few months :rolleyes:

Don't worry! They are not mine! I'm not working there...

Hawk Wing

DarkJager wrote: »

Exactly. People there under 2 years have already walked from what I've heard, the rest just have to bite the bullet for the sake of the disgraceful redundancy package they've offered. .

whats disgraceful about 6 weeks for every year? I've been let go recently after 11 years and will be receiving the statutory 2 weeks for every year work.

AnCapaillMor

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Looks like the Sh*t is about to hit the fan if this is true.

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnmhgbeyau/

In all fairness, we were doing the same ourselves, were'nt we going to be investigated when we essentially stole a couple of hundred jobs from scotland, when the IDA offered more grants.

I'm pissed at loosing my job, but we did the same to the states, when we were told of expansion, guys were being told bye bye in the states. I'm partially pissed at dell, but they're a business. I'm more pissed that we mishandled the boom, we're great for putting our hands out. The wage increases were great in the short term but ultimately screwed us. Wage increases drive prices up, as i said great for the short term. We priced ourselves out of business. Who'll want to manufacture in this country at these prices\wages. I'm also pissed at the politicians who just threw money at problems in the boom. At least i got till Jan 2010 in here, i feel for my colleagues who are going earlier.

kippy

Apart from what I have said earlier and I do hope some good does come of this I would like to add this point that's possibly a bit harsh but its reality.
Its not entirely the governments/creditcrunch's fault that these things happen.
Every single one of us over the past 10-15 years since Dell has been here had increases in wages, lower standard taxes.lower working hours,better family friendly policies. At the same time we've also seen and demanded massive reductions in consumer goods such as electronics(Thats a global thing). Both these things combined are the main drivers behind Ireland not being competitive with other countries. Its a as simple as that.
We are a selfish people (human nature) and all of us have demanded better salaries which has driven other costs up also, over the years.

Were we to remain as competitive, wages would not have risen, PC prices would not have fallen and we'd still be back where we were in the 80's.
Poland, as I've said will eventually lose this competitive advantage and as others have said the only reason Dell arent moving everything to China are shipping issues.
I'm not sure, but we've had to trade off any competitive advantages we've had for an allegedly better quality of life.
The challenge now is to either replace those manufacturing jobs with other jobs that cant easily be moved to cheaper climes or garner industries Ireland and IRISH COMPANIES are specialists in.
I worked in Dell myself for a year on the line and in test on the latitude notebooks. It was my introduction to my IT career and I can safely say its why I got into IT. I hope all 1900 get other roles or find something else to do for employment.
Kippy

cooperguy

Sunn wrote: »

workers are only paid a fraction of the overall wealth they actually create through their labour. While the rest is broken down for the "employing class" individuals while little or none of it filters down to the average worker.

Here is the topic if anyone would care to read it or ask anymore questions.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055009758

sorry mods.

Well they obviously arent paid exactly the value they bring or how do you fund the purchase of more supplies, payment of dividends to investors (without whom nobody would have a job) etc. etc.

And these "employing class" as you call them arguably bring the most value to the business. They take all the risk and have definatly worked huge hours to get the business to where it is. You never did say would you be willing to pay the carpenter and the lawn cutter the same.

I also had a quick look at that thread you keep linking to. A very niave world view to say the least.

Pelotudo

Business is business..Sure deep down everyone felt it was going to happen the minute they built they're Polish facility. I understand Dell have to compete but whats really wrong is that the government has allowed Dell to become such a dominant force on employment in Limerick(I'm not saying that Dell are bad for doing that now). It was up to the government to get other investment into the area so that Limerick wouldn't be damaged too much.
Think about it this way, if 1900(plus another 7/8000 in supply industry according to the estimates I've read) people lost their jobs in Dublin,London, Madrid, Paris, etc. the large populations of these areas and the general employment that exists as a result mean that they can absorb(to a certain extent) such job losses. Limerick however isn't very big at all..............................so what I'm really trying to say is DELL is a business, you can't blame them as they are only doing what big businesses do.
Blame Fianna Fail, the government,polticians... people who have less foresight than a goldfish.
My Brother-in-law works in Dell..
I have too
My sister has
I know people there
I feel really sad and angry
goodluck to everyone...

lanod2407

Sunn wrote: »

workers are only paid a fraction of the overall wealth they actually create through their labour. While the rest is broken down for the "employing class" individuals while little or none of it filters down to the average worker.

Sunn, you need to take a chill-pill and stop with the socialist ranting. If capitalism is so bad, I'd like you to show me a single instance of where a different system actually worked or works ............

As for Dell shafting Limerick and its employees there - Dell has provided employment for 3000 direct employees, and probably ~12,000 indirect, for 18 years; pouring hundreds of millions into the economy. For that I am personally very grateful. There are over 1,000 Dell jobs that will continue to exist when manufacturing operations cease next year - these jobs need to be secured, and slagging Dell off as "shafting" Limerick will not help.

I spent the past long number of years listening to Taxi drivers saying "that place will never last" ............ well, hurrah for those guys who are smiling now and saying "I knew it all along" ........... smile as long as you can 'cos who'll be paying your fares when 10,000 jobs are gone in 2010???!!!

Industry opinion is that Dell had fallen 2 - 3 years behind the competition by not moving production to the East, so it was inevitable that this would happen.

As for people only getting a fraction of the wealth they create - I'd advise that people do three things:

1. Check the profit % of companies where they think people are getting badly paid ........... the computer sector margins are quite low, indicating that there is not a lot of scope to increase wages.

2. Think back to the last time you were in a shop looking for a product and said "No, I want to buy a locally produced version, eve it is a few bucks more expensive" ........... yeah, I bet you cannot remember the last time you said that. How come we all want the 32" LCD that was €800 6 months ago, and is €499 now to be even cheaper???? How can you expect these prices, and not see the bigger picture where that's only possible if the product is made in the Far East???

3. Look at people who are self-employed or leading large companies and ask yourself: Why am I not doing that? Are you prepared to work 7 days a week running your own small company, and risking all if it does not succeed? Would you expect to share in the company's profits more than the guy who does a 40 hour week and hasn't put any money into the company? Would you be willing to take a massive pay cut if the profits went through the floor, or would you expect to get your standard pay-cheque regardless?

cancan

Sunn wrote: »

workers are only paid a fraction of the overall wealth they actually create through their labour. While the rest is broken down for the "employing class" individuals while little or none of it filters down to the average worker.

Instead of working at spar, why don't you go out and form a multinational company producing something creative and pay all your workers the same as yourself.

Michael Dell never worked at spar. He used a $1000 to form a company that was better than what the opposition were doing at the time.
Whats stopping you?

lanod2407

Sunn wrote: »

Considering the exploitation and both dell and coca cola particularly in the far east I beg to differ. Sadly its become an acceptable evil in our cases.

Absolute horse-manure! I've been to China, and exploitation is a complete nonsense. Did we feel "exploited in the 80's and 90's as the US MNC's came into town and gave us thousands of jobs and helped raise our standard of living? Like hell we did, and we looked at the USA and said "bring it on"!! We can do this stuff for a fraction of your fat-ass costs.
Not we're the guys getting replaced and we're crying about the Chinese being exploited ............ give me a break.

All Chinese kids must now learn English in school - these guys have a long-term plan that's working economically if not politically .......... who's exploiting who? Stick around for the next 20 years and find out.


A Chinese operator earns around $150 per month working for a multi-national ........... he'd get nowhere near this otherwise, and he can live in China on that amount.

zuroph

i've got a business idea. just waiting for the right IT heads to come out of dell desperate for work and i'm sorted. gonna be hella rich. hella rich. muhahahahaha!!!

Sunn

I also had a quick look at that thread you keep linking to. A very niave world view to say the least.

Thanks for taking the time out to read that topic cooper, even if what was a quick look.

Sunn, you need to take a chill-pill and stop with the socialist ranting. If capitalism is so bad, I'd like you to show me a single instance of where a different system actually worked or works ............

here are some anarchist models that have tried to flourish during the early half of the 20th century.

Anarchism in the Ukraine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Ukraine

Anarchism in Spain,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain

the reason these failed however is they were crushed by controlling governments who were in turn backed by other governments with money, weapons and equipment (particularly in the spanish revolution)

A more recent model is the Zapitista army of national liberation in mexico, who have many ideals similar to anarchism and have been going since 1994 without the use of violence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation

As for Dell shafting Limerick and its employees there - Dell has provided employment for 3000 direct employees, and probably ~12,000 indirect, for 18 years; pouring hundreds of millions into the economy. For that I am personally very grateful. There are over 1,000 Dell jobs that will continue to exist when manufacturing operations cease next year - these jobs need to be secured, and slagging Dell off as "shafting" Limerick will not help.

I spent the past long number of years listening to Taxi drivers saying "that place will never last" ............ well, hurrah for those guys who are smiling now and saying "I knew it all along" ........... smile as long as you can 'cos who'll be paying your fares when 10,000 jobs are gone in 2010???!!!


Industry opinion is that Dell had fallen 2 - 3 years behind the competition by not moving production to the East, so it was inevitable that this would happen.

As for people only getting a fraction of the wealth they create - I'd advise that people do three things:

1. Check the profit % of companies where they think people are getting badly paid ........... the computer sector margins are quite low, indicating that there is not a lot of scope to increase wages.

2. Think back to the last time you were in a shop looking for a product and said "No, I want to buy a locally produced version, eve it is a few bucks more expensive" ........... yeah, I bet you cannot remember the last time you said that. How come we all want the 32" LCD that was €800 6 months ago, and is €499 now to be even cheaper???? How can you expect these prices, and not see the bigger picture where that's only possible if the product is made in the Far East???

3. Look at people who are self-employed or leading large companies and ask yourself: Why am I not doing that? Are you prepared to work 7 days a week running your own small company, and risking all if it does not succeed? Would you expect to share in the company's profits more than the guy who does a 40 hour week and hasn't put any money into the company? Would you be willing to take a massive pay cut if the profits went through the floor, or would you expect to get your standard pay-cheque regardless?

There is a reason I posted a link to the anarchist topic, its pointless entering a debate if you don't really understand where I am coming from.


Instead of working at spar, why don't you go out and form a multinational company producing something creative and pay all your workers the same as yourself.

Michael Dell never worked at spar. He used a $1000 to form a company that was better than what the opposition were doing at the time.
Whats stopping you?

well I am putting myself through education. Sadly that doesnt leave time for setting up a global franchise.

Absolute horse-manure! I've been to China, and exploitation is a complete nonsense. Did we feel "exploited in the 80's and 90's as the US MNC's came into town and gave us thousands of jobs and helped raise our standard of living? Like hell we did, and we looked at the USA and said "bring it on"!! We can do this stuff for a fraction of your fat-ass costs.
Not we're the guys getting replaced and we're crying about the Chinese being exploited ............ give me a break.

All Chinese kids must now learn English in school - these guys have a long-term plan that's working economically if not politically .......... who's exploiting who? Stick around for the next 20 years and find out.


A Chinese operator earns around $150 per month working for a multi-national ........... he'd get nowhere near this otherwise, and he can live in China on that amount.

obviously these few random google searches say otherwise;

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/10/15/INGK7LNDJ41.DTL

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6739589.stm

one of many I found.

Although the standard of living is somewhat raised one of the main factors for actual economic liberation is the distribution of this wealth a company makes. As I have stated the worker sees very little of the actual wealth created.

Sunn

Because some people are missing the point,



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055009758

There are a lot of misconceptions about what exactly Anarchism stands for. Many people associate it with 'Chaos' and 'Disorganisation' when in reality, anarchism promotes a highly organised society, it's just organised from the bottom up and not the top down.

I'll get the ball rolling and put out some of the central beliefs of anarchism and if anyone wants to challenge them or add to them, then I'll respond to the best of my ability.

Anarchism means 'no rulers'. It is a political philosophy that is opposed to all kinds of hierarchy in favour of bottom up participatory democracy. In anarchism, all the means of production are directly owned and controlled by the workers themselves (unlike Marxism where power is held by a central government 'on behalf' of the ordinary workers)
Anarchists believe the private ownership of property (the means of production) is the single biggest cause of inequality poverty and dis-empowerment. Instead of absolute ownership of property, anarchists promote 'effective ownership' which basically means that, using an agricultural metaphor, you own the piece of land that you are currently farming, for as long as you continue to use that land, and if you ever decide to stop using it, someone else is free to take over that land. You can not employ anyone to work for you because if they work the field with you, then they are part owners of that field and you are partners, not employee and employer.)

Anarchists promote a society based on solidarity, not competition. We believe that co-operation, mutual aid, is a much more efficient use of our limited resources than constantly competing with each other all of the time.

Anarchists are anti Capitalist (anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron). Capitalism is a divisive, individualistic destructive greedy system. Wealth is a huge cause of poverty (in order for one person to accumulate vast wealth, he must exploit hundreds or thousands of others and the luxury he lives in is a huge waste of the limited resources that should be distributed equally to all)
Anarchists are completely against the spread of large Corporations and the increasing control they exercise over almost every aspect of our lives. These corporations are completely unaccountable and not only lack any morals or ethics, but are in fact legally obliged to disregard them in favour of increasing shareholder value.


That's a short description of only some of the aspects of anarchism.

please direct your comments to the topic link provided...also it is worth reading even if you don't agree with it theres nothing wrong with at least considering a different point of view for less than an hour.