Dell to cut 1,900 jobs in Limerick

Berty

Somebody give Jim Corr a call. He is missing out on a good rant here.

Sunn

Berty wrote: »

Somebody give Jim Corr a call. He is missing out on a good rant here.

if you are going to make light of a serious situation please take it elsewhere.

cancan

Sunn wrote: »

well I am putting myself through education. Sadly that doesnt leave time for setting up a global franchise.

You're not putting yourself "through education" whatever that means.

You are being given your free education by people like me, breaking our bollix working and paying tax, so you can sit around spar making pocket money and spending your time wondering about socialism and anarchy.

I have no idea what a "global franchise" is, but it appears to me that you are not exactly making the most of your free education, given the terminology in use.

So instead of pointing fingers about all that is wrong with the world, go out there and do something about it.

Otherwise, don't be wasting our time with your senseless rants on a world you do not fully understand.

The only reason people like you view the capitalist system as unfair, is that you are too lazy to get up off your arse and do something.

Berty

Sunn wrote: »

if you are going to make light of a serious situation please take it elsewhere.

Which situation have you decided is more important today?

Whichever you have decided to rant about today please take note of the STRONG hints that this thread is for discussing Dell and their employees and nothing else.

Mr E

Sunn, this thread is for discussing Dell. Stop taking it off topic. First, last and only warning.

billy the squid

Right peoples lets get back to the topic at hand. Thank you very much.

FinoBlad

I'm very sorry about this whole thing, I've no connection with Dell other than being a fairly large business customer of theirs.

I was looking at the salary gap between Ireland and Poland and I was wondering has there been any effort to pitch a reduction in salary and supplier costs to the company. I think if a consortium of staff and suppliers showed a saving it would rock the deal.

Dell obviously see a saving to be made but it would probably take years to realise when you factor in the cost of the new factory, moving their equipment, hiring and training.

A reduction in costs here would be felt immediately.

Is there any plans for the 1,900 folks to consider a salary reduction?

Jumpy

FinoBlad wrote: »

I'm very sorry about this whole thing, I've no connection with Dell other than being a fairly large business customer of theirs.

I was looking at the salary gap between Ireland and Poland and I was wondering has there been any effort to pitch a reduction in salary and supplier costs to the company. I think if a consortium of staff and suppliers showed a saving it would rock the deal.

Dell obviously see a saving to be made but it would probably take years to realise when you factor in the cost of the new factory, moving their equipment, hiring and training.

A reduction in costs here would be felt immediately.

Is there any plans for the 1,900 folks to consider a salary reduction?

Its no longer an option. They are moving out. The downsides of not having a union to discuss things with.

FinoBlad

Jumpy wrote: »

Its no longer an option. They are moving out. The downsides of not having a union to discuss things with.

It couldn't be that hard to mobilise everyone??

Berty

The main obstacle for Dell moving their operation out of the country is the cost of moving the massive amount of capital equipment which was going to cost in the region of €20million.

The awarding of €50m by Poland goes a long way to secure the move. Why would Michael Dell consider moving the business if it was going to cost him more money. This way he still makes a bonus on the business set up costs.

FinoBlad

I read somewhere in one of the media reports, I'm sorry I cant remember which one and it referenced the 50 million the Polish Government are giving as being a quarter of their setup costs. I've no idea how this was calculated, perhaps redundancy payments etc were factored in.

DarkJager

Berty wrote: »

The main obstacle for Dell moving their operation out of the country is the cost of moving the massive amount of capital equipment which was going to cost in the region of €20million.

The awarding of €50m by Poland goes a long way to secure the move. Why would Michael Dell consider moving the business if it was going to cost him more money. This way he still makes a bonus on the business set up costs.

If this EU investigation finds it broke state aid rules, Dell will not be seeing a penny of that €50m.

Berty

DarkJager wrote: »

If this EU investigation finds it broke state aid rules, Dell will not be seeing a penny of that €50m.

The EU will do something so Dell does not take its business outside of the EU one way or the other.

doolox

This reminds me very strongly of the Digital lay-off, of which I was part, in 1993.
All the same arguments regarding multinationals were rolled out then 15 yrs ago.
What people need to do is take stock of their skills do a lot of research and upskill if necessary to meet future demands in the workplace.
I remember a study which showed that the permanent job was gone. People have to change jobs on average every 3 years now. This will go down to every year when our children leave school.
The upside is they will have very good interview and communications skills when they get going. Banks and other lenders will have to be more flexible as nearly everyone will be in temporary jobs. Most work now done by public servants will be farmed out or outsourced so they will not be excluded from this process. In order to combat exploitation workers will have to communicate with each other via internet across borders and across workplace boundaries. This is discouraged or difficult at the moment but as technology gets cheaper and into everyones hands it will get easier.
China censors its internet access so the chances are its workers do not realise how badly paid they are and this will change as more of them learn English and come to the west and see how things work here. Also open comms will allow us to see how they can do things so cheaply and we may copy some of their techniques as we do from the Japanese now.
In time there will be a convergence in terms of living standards, wages, etc as theirs go up and ours goes down.
What is needed is open communications across all borders and genuinely free competition. Its no use if China is a cheap labour area because it hasn't got accountable government. At government level all the worlds countries need to look into the competitive advantages, if any, gained by dictatorships etc.
It appears that this is changing in China but they still haven't got free elections, unlike India.
It may come down to people choosing goods or services on the basis of the level of freedom allowed to the people who make them, like what happened to white-ruled South Africa with trade sanctions in the '80's.
People need to look at their skill levels and employability relative to others in their community. If they are at the low end and jobs are scarce, they need to improve. Unlike the 80's they cannot move to where jobs are plentiful as this is a global recession.
No one group have all the answers but it is not all bad.
If you are in a boom time and can't get a job then you are in trouble. Nobody will bother looking for solutions. But because of the size of this problem everyone out there with brain will be looking for solutions and hopefully will find them in time.

talkingclock

doolox wrote: »

What people need to do is take stock of their skills do a lot of research and upskill if necessary to meet future demands in the workplace.

Learn polish, chinese and whatever they speak in Bombay?

baza1976

talkingclock wrote: »

Learn polish, chinese and whatever they speak in Bombay?

The most common language spoken in Bombay is English!!!! Just incase lol.. It's true. I work with a guy from there, he was telling me that even school is taught in english. Just some useful info when your out tonight and it's looking like that girl isn't interested in you.........

BobTheBeat

ninty9er wrote:

....
It wasn't, the government is constantly in contact with companies like Dell, Intel, HP, Google, JP Morgan and othe large FDI employers.


Dell could have made this decision from nowhere, the government has been planing for all eventualities. Dell made the decision, not politicians.

....

Planning for all eventualities?Why is it so, that they need to put so much time and effort dealing with this huge mess AFTER the announcement was made?Whatever happened to being pro-active?Why is it that the city was allowed to essentially hedge all its bets against one company and there is no plan b?

Look, I realise it was Dell made the decision.. indeed it is their prerogative to do so. But when you have every governmental lackie trapesing around the region,wringing their hands and ochoning on the airwaves, it sickens me to the core that they had no plan b. I mean in every business you have one,thats what keeps you alive.And able to sleep at night.
Its a story thats played itself out a number of painful times in Ireland. We all learned lessons from it. Or at least we thought we did.

I respect your views and your obvious alliance with the current government.But you cannot deny the trouble we are in here,and as yet we have no reason to be hopeful from anything that has been said yet.
But I personally, have no doubt that the government and their associated agencies dropped the ball, big time, on this one. I hope the people of the mid west keep this in mind on June the 4th.

ninty9er

bobmeaney wrote: »

Planning for all eventualities?Why is it so, that they need to put so much time and effort dealing with this huge mess AFTER the announcement was made?Whatever happened to being pro-active?Why is it that the city was allowed to essentially hedge all its bets against one company and there is no plan b?

You can plan, but like with any plan, implementing it only starts after the event in ANY case. Like companies going into administration. They can plan for it, but the efforts really kick in once the company begins to fail. Only then is an administrator appointed.

BobTheBeat

ninty9er wrote: »

You can plan, but like with any plan, implementing it only starts after the event in ANY case. Like companies going into administration. They can plan for it, but the efforts really kick in once the company begins to fail. Only then is an administrator appointed.

It was a problem waiting to happen though and has almost been an eventuality since the Poland facility was built. I know this, as I worked for a company that had business taken from them as a result. Its the fact that an over-reliance on Dell for the region was allowed. All things considered, there would still be 1900 people looking for work as a result of the announcement, but who knows what could have been achieved had the skills brought and developed by Dell were taken and grown by direct investment into the region, allowing Irish owned industry to take hold. It really was a lost opportunity.

ninty9er

bobmeaney wrote: »

allowing Irish owned industry to take hold. It really was a lost opportunity.

And what is stopping that now. Not government incompetence, personal lack of confidence is the problem.

You can lead a man to risk, but you can't make him take it.

old boy

ninty9er wrote: »

And what is stopping that now. Not government incompetence, personal lack of confidence is the problem.

You can lead a man to risk, but you can't make him take it.

just the usual trying to close the door after the horse (or in this case the jobs) are gone

old boy

ninty9er wrote: »

You can plan, but like with any plan, implementing it only starts after the event in ANY case. Like companies going into administration. They can plan for it, but the efforts really kick in once the company begins to fail. Only then is an administrator appointed.

in reality every company manager owner,sports coach always has a second even third option,
every home owner has to have a few options regarding accidents, fire, job loss, have you ever played any game for dosh, bridge, poker, etc, without a second option, even when you filled in your coa form you were asked to fill in more than one option.

--amadeus--

ninty9er wrote: »

And what is stopping that now. Not government incompetence, personal lack of confidence is the problem.

You can lead a man to risk, but you can't make him take it.

Meanwhile in teh real world a heavy dose of banks not backing new ventures is at least as big an issue as personal lack of confidence.

And as someone who runs a business (and one that faced severe difficulties at our last downturn) I'm calling BS on the idea that you only implement your rescue plans when it hits the fan. If you do that it is too little too late. If a business is in difficulties smart owners work out action plans that can be implemented with immediate effect. They are the companies that survive. The ones who "wait and see" are the ones who fail. The dogs on the street have known for at least 18 months that Dell were going to (at best) scale back jobs here. The lack of a connected, joined up job creation strategy from the government and regional authorities is little short of a disgrace.

It doesn't take a genius to work out what needs to be done - labour intensive capital expenditure prioritised through the NDP with a focus on increasing regional integration, tax breaks for SMEs, increased access to and support from business incubation centres, increased grant / loan / non-traditional credit availability for new start ups, an encouragement of "social entrepreneurship", tax free allowances / assistance when recruiting certain categories of worker. Get half a dozen successful business owners and they'll tell you what can be done. Unfortunately the politicos are too busy being driven around in thier Mercs to talk to people who might have answers. Where are teh cabinet planning on spending Paddies Day btw?

ninty9er

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Meanwhile in teh real world a heavy dose of banks not backing new ventures is at least as big an issue as personal lack of confidence.

And as someone who runs a business (and one that faced severe difficulties at our last downturn) I'm calling BS on the idea that you only implement your rescue plans when it hits the fan. If you do that it is too little too late. If a business is in difficulties smart owners work out action plans that can be implemented with immediate effect. They are the companies that survive. The ones who "wait and see" are the ones who fail. The dogs on the street have known for at least 18 months that Dell were going to (at best) scale back jobs here. The lack of a connected, joined up job creation strategy from the government and regional authorities is little short of a disgrace.

It doesn't take a genius to work out what needs to be done - labour intensive capital expenditure prioritised through the NDP with a focus on increasing regional integration, tax breaks for SMEs, increased access to and support from business incubation centres, increased grant / loan / non-traditional credit availability for new start ups, an encouragement of "social entrepreneurship", tax free allowances / assistance when recruiting certain categories of worker. Get half a dozen successful business owners and they'll tell you what can be done. Unfortunately the politicos are too busy being driven around in thier Mercs to talk to people who might have answers. Where are teh cabinet planning on spending Paddies Day btw?

I agree with a lot of what you say there, but as you say it is a matter of getting the cabinet to listen. Again...I know myself, you can throw ideas at them til you're blue in the face, but getting them implemented is another thing!

Itsdacraic

ninty9er wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you say there, but as you say it is a matter of getting the cabinet to listen. Again...I know myself, you can throw ideas at them til you're blue in the face, but getting them implemented is another thing!

Your a spoofer of the highest order. This notion that your trying to spin that Government couldn't do anything proactive re: Dell until after they had announced they were leaving is rubbish. In one post your saying that the government can't be accussed of incompetence and in another your saying they are incapable of listening to straight forward logical ideas.

Great post Amadeus. Every man and his dog knew that Dell weren't going to be in Limerick forever, as soon as it emerged they were building a plant in Poland, government training initiatives and the promotion of local sustainable employment should have been at the very top of policy in relation to Limerick.

ninty9er

Itsdacraic wrote: »

Your a spoofer of the highest order. This notion that your trying to spin that Government couldn't do anything proactive re: Dell until after they had announced they were leaving is rubbish. In one post your saying that the government can't be accussed of incompetence and in another your saying they are incapable of listening to straight forward logical ideas.

Do you have a builder on a retainer in case your house burns down? If so fair play to you, but I don't know anyone who does.

The government never stopped seeking investment in jobs, therefore DIDN'T take it's eye off the ball. Dell is a company that may or may not have left, it didn't, this isn't a disaster, it's a large group of unemployed people, individuals, humans.

I'm not saying government is incapable of listening, it can't be accused of not having a plan, because it's now in action. Ideas are thrown at people every day, I've suggested what I think are good ideas to employers before. I think they're good ideas, it doesn't mean employers did. YOU have ideas that YOU think are good. Your opinion of your own ideas doesn't really count. The same applies to ideas anyone throws at government.

If you want to call people names, off you go, but I won't lower myself to your level

starbelgrade

I feel sympathy with anyone who has lost their job & as I was made redundant last year, I can also empathise. But WHY is it that the government are setting up a task force & rescue package for the 2000 odd workers being made redundant in Dell? What is so special & unique about them? What about the 2000 people losing their jobs in Ireland every day? Are they not as deserving as the Dell workers? I really don't get it.

cooperguy

starbelgrade wrote: »

I feel sympathy with anyone who has lost their job & as I was made redundant last year, I can also empathise. But WHY is it that the government are setting up a task force & rescue package for the 2000 odd workers being made redundant in Dell? What is so special & unique about them? What about the 2000 people losing their jobs in Ireland every day? Are they not as deserving as the Dell workers? I really don't get it.

Because with such a large loss in the one places the knock on effects are MASSIVE to alot more jobs if something isnt done. Much worse than another 2000 being lost but being spread all over the country.

starbelgrade

cooperguy wrote: »

Because with such a large loss in the one places the knock on effects are MASSIVE to alot more jobs if something isnt done. Much worse than another 2000 being lost but being spread all over the country.

That's 2000 a DAY being lost nationwide. The effects of that for the country as a whole are MASSIVE as you would say. Throwing money at Dell ex-employees is like pissing in the wind... or like throwing a bucket of water over a kitchen fire while meanwhile, the whole house is burning down.

I've no illusions / dellusions that the Dell workers don't need it, but so does the rest of Ireland's ex-workers - and just as badly. Just another example of this government's inepitude - one that was blatantly obvious the first time the fools of Ireland voted them in - nver mind the second term.

It seems ineptitude is the highest awarded virtue in this country.

I'm away now to siphon off some funds & wrecklessly invest them on the stock exchange.

maninasia

ninty9er wrote: »

And what is stopping that now. Not government incompetence, personal lack of confidence is the problem.

You can lead a man to risk, but you can't make him take it.

Yeah it's all government this, government that, sounds a lot like the old Soviet Union to me. What about taking responsiblity for your own lives, getting an education, looking for a stable career, moving to another area, starting your own business.

The country is run by career politicians, ex-solicitors and ex-teachers. They don't have a clue what they are doing. Their idea of an economy was to make the public sector take 1/3 of all workers and give tax breaks to developers in the middle of record low interest rates. Ask a multi-national like Dell to 'please sir, don't take your jobs' out of Ireland. Meanwhile they pay themselves among the highest salary of any government worldwide with months of holidays every year. Took a month's holiday at Xmas in the middle of Ireland's worst-ever downturn. They even agreed to a pay rise for the 'social partners' when the global credit crisis was already in full swing!

Where I live in Asia the President hasn't taken a SINGLE DAY OFF IN 8 MONTHS, no joke!!!!