Impact rules out public sector pay cuts

Firetrap

I don't know how much value international comparisons are. Ireland's a very expensive country to live in (and this could yet be the rock we perish on)

nhughes100

Nermal wrote: »

By that rationale if a Garda extracted a fee from those he arrested he'd be wealth-creating, or fee-paying schools are wealth-creating and the rest are not.

Both the public and private sector create wealth. However there's no doubt that our public sector is on average 30-40% overpaid; international comparisons prove it.

If A Garda gives you a fine is he creating revenue then?

Fee paying schools are also funded by the taxpayer.

This 30-40 percent overpaid is absolute bunkem. How the hell did they arrive at this figure, are you telling me that comparing like for like, grade for grade that we'll find a 30% discrepency when compared with their British counterparts? That idiot from the University of Limerick was on prime time last night and quoted this figure, I compared my own salary with a sample of comparable jobs in the UK and I can tell you the differences were nothing like 30%, I could be better off in a few of them too. Feel free to compare the salary ranges, they're all available on the department of Finance's website.

I'd have no problems starting this comparison at the top, IE Taoiseach 40% more then the German and British prime ministers. TD's amongst the top paid politicians in the world. No this won't plug the gap in the defecit but at least there'll be some social justice about it. If you're on 200 grand a year like our university president is then you'll hardly be on the poverty line taking a 30% cut, he can afford to take it, that's why he advocated a cut. Ask someone on 25K a year to take a 30% cut and it puts them just about on minimum wage.

NewDubliner

nhughes100 wrote: »

If you're on 200 grand a year like our university president is then you'll hardly be on the poverty line taking a 30% cut, he can afford to take it, that's why he advocated a cut. Ask someone on 25K a year to take a 30% cut and it puts them just about on minimum wage.

Should we introduce special tax rates for public servants? That way the cuts would vary with personal circumstances, number of dependents etc?

K4t

Nermal wrote: »

Both the public and private sector create wealth. However there's no doubt that our public sector is on average 30-40% overpaid; international comparisons prove it.

Why has nobody mentioned the differences in cost of living between Ireland and other european countries? All this comparing of wages, but it does not reflect purchasing power.

spinaltap

The Public sector is an easy target for blaming the state of the country.
In fairness why would they take a pay cut, they are not to blame for the goverments miscalculation of funds and bad decision made over a number of years.
Should the gaurds, nurses firemen to be blamed on the economy, I dont think so , are the admin staff to be blamed , no again.
There maybe to many public servants, true, thats where the goverment should look at I think and also a pay freeze which is already in place.
So not only a pay freez but also a freeze on recruitment and maybe someone to come in from the private sector to overview how things could be done better, faster and with less employees.
If the public sector is to take a paycut then so should the private sector, I have read on posts that the general rule of thumb is that people believe that the public sector jobs are overpaid, there are many that are but the majority are not, top management on 100k and more should now be benchmarked against the private sector.
As for a lot of the public sector on 500 or so a week , there not to blame for the downfall of the Country.

Calhoun

spinaltap wrote: »

The Public sector is an easy target for blaming the state of the country.
In fairness why would they take a pay cut, they are not to blame for the goverments miscalculation of funds and bad decision made over a number of years.
Should the gaurds, nurses firemen to be blamed on the economy, I dont think so , are the admin staff to be blamed , no again.
There maybe to many public servants, true, thats where the goverment should look at I think and also a pay freeze which is already in place.
So not only a pay freez but also a freeze on recruitment and maybe someone to come in from the private sector to overview how things could be done better, faster and with less employees.
If the public sector is to take a paycut then so should the private sector, I have read on posts that the general rule of thumb is that people believe that the public sector jobs are overpaid, there are many that are but the majority are not, top management on 100k and more should now be benchmarked against the private sector.
As for a lot of the public sector on 500 or so a week , there not to blame for the downfall of the Country.

I work in the private sector myself, 1900 of my collegues recently got the chop and id wish i could say that be the end of it but i know myself how things are going. Whole families basically now left waiting to go on the dole when they are finally released from their current job roles.

If they had been given the option of a pay reduction rather than being let go im sure allot of people would have taken it. Allot of these people weren't to blame for the current economic climate but the harsh reality of the private sector is cut costs to stay profitable why should the public sector be any different ?

Regardless of the currenty economic climate, there is need for change in the public sector and you have touched off it in what you have said. "Better , faster and with less people" is basically increased productivity and efficiency .

richiek83

I am a relatively low paid Civil Servant(take home pay €400 after taxsaver ticket and other deductions). There is no doubt that we all have to play our part in getting our economy moving again. Widespread pay cuts may happen in the Public Service, what I would propose would be pay cuts in line with what a person is on. For example a lower rate of pay cut for people under €33,000(average industrial wage) in the order of 1-2%. I personally struggle to get by as it is but for the common good I would be willing to play my part. I would propose that the more one person is on the higher rate of a pay cut they should take. The highest rate of pay cuts should be in the order of 7-8%. This should apply to Public Servants on approx €100,000. The Taoiseach and Ministers should take a further pay cut and be brought into line with similar pay scales in the rest of Europe.

On the revenue side of things, taxes will have to be increased. The widening of the tax levy should be considered. 2% levy on any worker in the country on €60,000, 3% on €80,000, 4% on €100,000 and so on.

I Would look at the possibility of a property tax, a figure of about €200 per household per year. Stamp duty to be abolished. A special rate of Corporation Tax on businesses that would be involved in manafacturing. VAT rate lowered to 19%, although this would not be much, it might install a bit of confidence into the retail sector and encourage spending.

Although unpopular I wouldn't rule out Water rates coming back in the near future either.

At the end of the day my proposals on the tax levy above would protect the lower paid. It would have the potential of generating a substantial amount much of extra revenue for the exchequer.

Tough times call for tough decisions. Lets try and get some ideas going that would install a bit of badly needed confidence into the economy. I reckon that their are many people on this forum that have some innovative ideas.

ParkRunner

richiek83 wrote: »

I am a relatively low paid Civil Servant(take home pay €400 after taxsaver ticket and other deductions). There is no doubt that we all have to play our part in getting our economy moving again. Widespread pay cuts may happen in the Public Service, what I would propose would be pay cuts in line with what a person is on. For example a lower rate of pay cut for people under €33,000(average industrial wage) in the order of 1-2%. I personally struggle to get by as it is but for the common good I would be willing to play my part. I would propose that the more one person is on the higher rate of a pay cut they should take. The highest rate of pay cuts should be in the order of 7-8%. This should apply to Public Servants on approx €100,000. The Taoiseach and Ministers should take a further pay cut and be brought into line with similar pay scales in the rest of Europe.

On the revenue side of things, taxes will have to be increased. The widening of the tax levy should be considered. 2% levy on any worker in the country on €60,000, 3% on €80,000, 4% on €100,000 and so on.

I Would look at the possibility of a property tax, a figure of about €200 per household per year. Stamp duty to be abolished. A special rate of Corporation Tax on businesses that would be involved in manafacturing. VAT rate lowered to 19%, although this would not be much, it might install a bit of confidence into the retail sector and encourage spending.

Although unpopular I wouldn't rule out Water rates coming back in the near future either.

At the end of the day my proposals on the tax levy above would protect the lower paid. It would have the potential of generating a substantial amount much of extra revenue for the exchequer.

Tough times call for tough decisions. Lets try and get some ideas going that would install a bit of badly needed confidence into the economy. I reckon that their are many people on this forum that have some innovative ideas.

I would agree with a lot of that apart from the corporation tax on manufacturing companies which would lead to further job losses and secondly restrict property rates to second and subsequent properties. Those with one family home are suffering enough I imagine. Income tax hikes would be preferrable to an expanding dole queue.

gurramok

nhughes100 wrote: »

This 30-40 percent overpaid is absolute bunkem. How the hell did they arrive at this figure, are you telling me that comparing like for like, grade for grade that we'll find a 30% discrepency when compared with their British counterparts? That idiot from the University of Limerick was on prime time last night and quoted this figure, I compared my own salary with a sample of comparable jobs in the UK and I can tell you the differences were nothing like 30%, I could be better off in a few of them too. Feel free to compare the salary ranges, they're all available on the department of Finance's website.

I'd have no problems starting this comparison at the top, IE Taoiseach 40% more then the German and British prime ministers. TD's amongst the top paid politicians in the world. No this won't plug the gap in the defecit but at least there'll be some social justice about it. If you're on 200 grand a year like our university president is then you'll hardly be on the poverty line taking a 30% cut, he can afford to take it, that's why he advocated a cut. Ask someone on 25K a year to take a 30% cut and it puts them just about on minimum wage.

They were using Eurostat figures http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=16238&hilit=eurostat&start=0

It is pretty obvious nurses, gardai, prison officers, bus drivers, esb workers and teachers etc are among the best paid in euroland as per those stats.

Industrial & Services* Public Sector Differential % of Ind&Serv

Denmark € 44,403 € 40,952 -€ 3,451 -7.77%
Germany € 35,421 € 33,905 -€ 1,516 -4.28%
Ireland € 35,746 € 45,643 € 9,897 27.69%
Netherlands € 36,195 € 36,038 -€ 157 -0.43%
Finland € 31,995 € 28,569 -€ 3,426 -10.71%
Britain € 38,036 € 35,189 -€ 2,847 -7.49%

nhughes100

NewDubliner wrote: »

Should we introduce special tax rates for public servants? That way the cuts would vary with personal circumstances, number of dependents etc?

Well done, you completely misread my post, I never said anything about tax rates for public servants, I said that public servants on higher level wages which I would consider to be 65k+ should be hit first with any pay cuts as they can afford them. If you were on 80 grand a year, a 10% cut means you're still on 72K so you are hardly on the poverty line.

gurramok wrote: »

They were using Eurostat figures http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=16238&hilit=eurostat&start=0

It is pretty obvious nurses, gardai, prison officers, bus drivers, esb workers and teachers etc are among the best paid in euroland as per those stats.

Industrial & Services* Public Sector Differential % of Ind&Serv

Denmark € 44,403 € 40,952 -€ 3,451 -7.77%
Germany € 35,421 € 33,905 -€ 1,516 -4.28%
Ireland € 35,746 € 45,643 € 9,897 27.69%
Netherlands € 36,195 € 36,038 -€ 157 -0.43%
Finland € 31,995 € 28,569 -€ 3,426 -10.71%
Britain € 38,036 € 35,189 -€ 2,847 -7.49%

Thanks for the link but it doesn't prove that Gardai, nurses etc are better paid then their opposite numbers in other EU countries. They've simply tarred all public servants with the same brush. It's a very bad statistic as they don't compare like with like. For example if a president of a univeristy earning 150 grand and an cleirical officer earning 25, well add them together and divide by 2 and their average wage they're on is 87.5 grand, not bad for a clerical officer. Gardai, nurses and teachers are always bounded about as being the public servant but there's a hell of a lot more then that lurking about the place.

K-9

nhughes100 wrote: »

Thanks for the link but it doesn't prove that Gardai, nurses etc are better paid then their opposite numbers in other EU countries. They've simply tarred all public servants with the same brush. It's a very bad statistic as they don't compare like with like. For example if a president of a univeristy earning 150 grand and an cleirical officer earning 25, well add them together and divide by 2 and their average wage they're on is 87.5 grand, not bad for a clerical officer. Gardai, nurses and teachers are always bounded about as being the public servant but there's a hell of a lot more then that lurking about the place.

Fair enough, Jaysus, it's massive differential though. The rest are negative! :eek:

gurramok

I've nothing against that clerical officer on 25k as they don't earn that much and ain't that costly.
What irks me is the poor mouth put on especially by teachers and nurses when their pay hits 40k+ when you add in the overtime and shifts available as well as superior pensions.

Here's some on the UK
http://www.andyreedmp.org.uk/nhspay2007.html

Our decision means that the minimum starting pay for a basic grade, newly qualified nurse will be over 19,600 from 1st Nov – an increase of £479 on current rates and a 59% increase since Labour was elected in 1997.

Modern matrons will start on around £35,700 from 1st April, rising to £36,112 from 1st November, with the potential to earn up to around £43,000 a year. The average pay for a qualified nurse is currently £25,724 and this will rise to an estimated £28,360. It is also worth noting the average pay for a qualified nurse has risen on average by 24% over the past 5 years, which is faster than the private sector average of 21%.

Here's lovely stats on teachers when compared with the UK.
http://www.educationworld.net/salaries_ie.html
http://www.educationworld.net/salaries_uk.html

Read and weep. Look at the police difference!
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=411942&in_page_id=2

The average pay for the police at the rank of sergeant and below is now £34,913, and all teachers, including those at nursery and primary level, earn above £30,000 - salaries which are substantially above the rates earned by civil and electrical engineers.

There are, though, some anomalies in the public sector, such as the fact that firefighters, on £26,300, earn so much more than ambulance crews, on £21,348, despite ambulance work being far more demanding.

Firefighters spend barely 5% of their time fighting fires, whereas ambulance staff rush from one job to another when on duty.

http://www.bankofscotland.ie/index.jsp?1nID=93&2nID=119&nID=177&aID=254

An average salary of E51,187 for secondary teachers – sourced from Public sector employment and earnings Dec 2005 (CSO)
· An average salary of E42,834 for primary teachers – sourced from Public sector employment and earnings Dec 2005 (CSO)
· An average salary of E51,673 for Gardai - sourced from Public sector employment and earnings Dec 2005 (CSO)- note this excludes over-time.
· An average salary of E32,408 for nurses - sources from the Irish nurses Organisation - pay relates to a Staff Nurse at the fourth grading point
· An average salary of E34,307 for firefighters – sourced from the report of public sector benchmarking 2002 and uprated to 2005 using the average increase in local authority earnings up to Dec 2005.

Entire UK workforce averages:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=429176&in_page_id=2

Nurse average is £23kstg. HSE claim €56k for an Irish nurse. BOS say €32k. Whoever is right shows they are overpaid.
Teachers at €42k or €51k. Across the water its £24k-£34k.

Irish teachers and nurses striking?

Let them strike.

NewDubliner

nhughes100 wrote: »

Well done, you completely misread my post, I never said anything about tax rates for public servants, I said that public servants on higher level wages which I would consider to be 65k+ should be hit first with any pay cuts as they can afford them. If you were on 80 grand a year, a 10% cut means you're still on 72K so you are hardly on the poverty line.

It was not my intention to misrepresent you, rather to suggest that if cuts are to be made they should be equitable and that something like a tax system would be needed rather than a straight cut.

For example, if people on 65k get a 10% cut, is that on all 65k? What if your salary is 64,999? Do you escape completely?

spinaltap

Tired of the Public service bashing to be honest, tarred with the same brush.
The reason the pay is ADEQUATE for gaurds, firemen and nurses is that they put up with the scum of society , get hit and spat on and work in an dangerous enviroment on a daily basis.
I am self employed and will not jump on the band wagon of bashing the public sector which is badly managed from the Top brass.
What we need is auditors and accountants from the private sectors, CEOs and the likes to work out a proper system, a system where workers have to work and are rewarded for reaching goals and targets.
Offer reduntacies where applicple and not to replace staff where they are not neccesary.
It is terrible that the private sector is been hit so hard, buts lets not forget that the average person in the private sector was earning quite a substatial wage in the good years as well and the builders earned a fortune, people got greedy, wanted more money for less work, houses in the sun, second homes, 3 cars, private education, 3 holidays a year and when things go sour sure lets take it out on mr and mrs average paid public sector worker on 40 k a year......not on.....

gurramok

Guess scum don't go near retail workers though

For the umpteenth time, builders, bankers developers are a tiny minority of the private sector who did well.
After all, it was a public sector body call IFSRA who was supposed to keep an eye on the housing bubble aka bankers which failed to regulate.

If you're on 40k a year, your doing quite well as there are more numerous people in the private sector who are not even near that salary.

nhughes100

NewDubliner wrote: »

It was not my intention to misrepresent you, rather to suggest that if cuts are to be made they should be equitable and that something like a tax system would be needed rather than a straight cut.

For example, if people on 65k get a 10% cut, is that on all 65k? What if your salary is 64,999? Do you escape completely?

Fair enough but even if you did use a tax system there has to be a cut off point somewhere, you are taxed on the lower rate of tax up until a certain amount and any euro over that gets taxed on a higher rate. So to use your example above yes maybe public servants up to from 40-64999k would take a 3-5% cut and anyone over that would take a 7-10% cut. I would agree that a blanket 10% cut is completely unfair and won't serve this country well. It may make some inroads into the immediate crisis but there's still a country to be ran here.

I'd also encourage people to remember one thing here, every payscale in the public service is authorised and signed off by the relevant minister, now they might get their departmental secretary to sign off on their behalf but the elected minister is the person responsible. They can't just blame the unions. Social partnership is supposed to be a group effort after all.

jimmmy

gurramok wrote: »

For the umpteenth time, builders, bankers developers are a tiny minority of the private sector who did well.

Not all "developers " done well though....I know some who lost their family fortune + borrowed money on property now in massive negative equity.

BroomBurner

jimmmy wrote: »

Not all "developers " done well though....I know some who lost their family fortune + borrowed money on property now in massive negative equity.

Sure whos fault is that only their own

spinaltap

I quote " only a tiny minority of the private sector did well "
GET off the stage, from guys working in small businesses like printing companies to telesales we all did well from the celtic tiger, no were not all millionaires and we surrived, it definitley wasnt a small number in the privtate sector that did well.
As for someone else saying they lost there family fortune threw the building trade, they made a bloody fortune to lose it, didnt they,
If you didnt make money in the boom years from the Building sector, they were either not charging enough for there work or wasnt a good devolper.
we all did well from the Boom years, plenty of overtime, 2 holidays a year , nice house with the lcd TV hanging on the wall ( which I dont have )
So blame it all on the Public sector, jesus some of you guys are unreal.
Take away the Big merc from the ministers , take away huge expences account and drivers, stop giving every tom dick and henry from war torn coutries freee houses and stop letting them milk the system.

spinaltap

jimmmy wrote: »

Not all "developers " done well though....I know some who lost their family fortune + borrowed money on property now in massive negative equity.

If someone lost a fortune they had made a fortune, not happy with that they wanted more and lost out, its a gamble and they wooden be crying about it if they made millions like they thought they were going to .
The banks are to blame for letting someone get a morgage for a house that was never worth the price or near to it, it wasnt regulated by the central bank like it should have been.
As far as I can see the regulator is to blame in a big way, why isnt there someone or some organization willing to take on the regulator, it just doesnt stop at the Iirish regulator,were part of a bigger picture , Europe should be barking down the necks of the irish regulator and also compensating the purchaser whos now in negative equity.
If the banks can get a bail out , why can the home owners get a bail out and let some of the morgage balace be wiped out.

irish_bob

BroomBurner wrote: »

Sure whos fault is that only their own

then they are fools , anyone in construction who is now broke is either a fool , was too greedy for thier own good or both , ive zero sympathy for them, ive also zero sympathy for public sector workers who also did incredibly well during the boom years for the simple reason that when the leader of our country sat down with unions , the only thing he saw across from him were votes

Nermal

K4t wrote: »

Why has nobody mentioned the differences in cost of living between Ireland and other european countries? All this comparing of wages, but it does not reflect purchasing power.

Cost of living is high here because of high wages. Cut them and the cost of living drops.

Public sector rants about how everyone else is a millionaire, or has a company car, or was showered with fantastic bonuses every year are pointless.

You're paid out of tax revenue that we don't have anymore, it's that simple. Either there are going to be a lot less of you, or you'll all be paid less.

Firetrap

Pay them less by all means. I'm queasier about letting loads of people go. Has anyone actually done the maths on it? You fire a public servant and you have to give them redundancy money. They go on the dole and they have to get their dole and all the other things that unemployed folk get (medical card/ESB/phone rental etc.). The exchequer loses the PAYE/PRSI they were paying back into the system. If they don't have the money to spend, it will hit the wider economy. Nope...I'm convinced there are other ways the government can save money. Sacking people should be a last resort. Cut pay first.

NewDubliner

Firetrap wrote: »

Cut pay first.

Great, the government hires a whole bunch of people to win votes (e.g. 'decentralisation') and cuts your pay to finance the vote grabbing scam?

Firetrap

I should've written the last line better. I meant it in terms of it's better to cut peoples' pay than to fire them.

Decentralisation should be abandoned - it would be better if more attention was paid to this disgraceful waste of our money. The government should sell the sites they've bought and not done anything with (I wonder is it a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted with the half-full offices down the country that have people rattling around in them). I am convinced there's also plenty of other wasted money that could be saved.

NewDubliner

Firetrap wrote: »

Decentralisation should be abandoned - it would be better if more attention was paid to this disgraceful waste of our money.

The problem is that there are people in Dublin who had their jobs taken away to give employment to people down the country and are now stuck in between. Who do you fire?

Firetrap

Yes, it is a mess. A costly mess that Fianna Fail brought on itself. I've no solution to the problem (methinks if I knew the answers I wouldn't be sitting in a rented apartment surfing Boards :P).

jmayo

Firetrap wrote: »

Yes, it is a mess. A costly mess that Fianna Fail brought on itself. I've no solution to the problem (methinks if I knew the answers I wouldn't be sitting in a rented apartment surfing Boards :P).

Look at the bright side you could have bought it in 2007

Teacherman

Firstly, I would advise all Public servants not to bother in taking part in these "Debates". Most posters have it out for the sector and are not prepared to listen. They have it out for public sector a variety of reasons, some as mundane as the fact that they failed civil service exam or the big bad teacher shouted at them once.


Secondly-these debates influence nobody important
Thirdly, most opinions are rehashed from the Indo-the biggest cheerleader of the axis of evil-Fianna Fail, Developers and Builders

Fourthly-We all rely on Public servants even if we are one. It gives me no great pleasure to have to fork out for VHI because of our poor health service. Why should I take a pay cut to fund the Third of HSE staff who dont know what they are doing?

FiftlyOur tax base is too low and you would be naive if you believed lenihan's " No new taxes" was a promise that stetches beyond 2009

Lastly-All public servants should strike if only to prevent further cuts. The ERSI data showed only a 7% difference in Public Vs Private Graduate pay and has not taken into account pension levy-which guess what is on Avg around 7%

I plan to make no further comments-as advised public servants -dont waste time dealing with simplistic drivel here (which 98% of it is)

FlutterinBantam

Teacherman wrote: »

Firstly, I would advise all Public servants not to bother in taking part in these "Debates". Most posters have it out for the sector and are not prepared to listen. They have it out for public sector a variety of reasons, some as mundane as the fact that they failed civil service exam or the big bad teacher shouted at them once.


Secondly-these debates influence nobody important
Thirdly, most opinions are rehashed from the Indo-the biggest cheerleader of the axis of evil-Fianna Fail, Developers and Builders

Fourthly-We all rely on Public servants even if we are one. It gives me no great pleasure to have to fork out for VHI because of our poor health service. Why should I take a pay cut to fund the Third of HSE staff who dont know what they are doing?

FiftlyOur tax base is too low and you would be naive if you believed lenihan's " No new taxes" was a promise that stetches beyond 2009

Lastly-All public servants should strike if only to prevent further cuts. The ERSI data showed only a 7% difference in Public Vs Private Graduate pay and has not taken into account pension levy-which guess what is on Avg around 7%

I plan to make no further comments-as advised public servants -dont waste time dealing with simplistic drivel here (which 98% of it is)

Never heard such bulldust in all my short life.

Bottom line, shortfall of 23 bill in the state finances OK?

No room for further tax rises...OK?

Obvious answer cost reduction..OK???


Why supposedly educated and savvy people cannot cop on to this is really mystifying.


What in all seriousness do you suppose is the solution.??