Palm Pre - does everything the iPhone doesn't

strecker

Draupnir wrote: »

Why wont this device succeed? 2 words, App Store. Apple have created a unique selling point which is the real killer in the iPhone experience, unless Palm offer a valid alternative and get as many people involved as Apple have, I think Apple have created an almost unbeatable eco-system.

Omg, really? I didn't notice when I used my iphone! All I saw was gadgets and games; useful apps that only work with macs or only with wifi...or apps that have been around for years on other platforms.
And with an s60 or wm or java phone you can pop into any web cafe and plug in the phone and just download whatever you want without itunes.
3 links and you have thousands of wm and s60 apps on your phone.

The appstore is genius marketing, but not every phone user can live on iFart and tetris....

The Pre may well fail, who knows! But hype or not: it won't fail because of the absence of an apple-type appstore! In fact: hey, there was no appstore when the first iphone came out! There was no appstore for the n95 that sold what? 10 million and counting!
The viewty!? Etc etc...

Don t believe the hype.
Not everyone does!

Draupnir

strecker wrote: »

Omg, really? I didn't notice when I used my iphone! All I saw was gadgets and games; useful apps that only work with macs or only with wifi...or apps that have been around for years on other platforms.
And with an s60 or wm or java phone you can pop into any web cafe and plug in the phone and just download whatever you want without itunes.
3 links and you have thousands of wm and s60 apps on your phone.

The appstore is genius marketing, but not every phone user can live on iFart and tetris....

The Pre may well fail, who knows! But hype or not: it won't fail because of the absence of an apple-type appstore! In fact: hey, there was no appstore when the first iphone came out! There was no appstore for the n95 that sold what? 10 million and counting!
The viewty!? Etc etc...

Don t believe the hype.
Not everyone does!

Wow, over react much? I think the App Store is what will push the iPhone more mainstream than the business phones you mentioned, appealing to a wider target audience and thus being the dominant device over the next 5 years.

Don't get me wrong, other phones do certain jobs better, they just appeal to smaller audiences. I'm speaking in a business sense and think Apple have created an excellent eco-system.

Sherifu

strecker wrote: »

The appstore is genius marketing, but not every phone user can live on iFart and tetris....

Don't forget iRich...

ozymandius

mobius42 wrote: »

I'm skeptical about the pre being attractive to the business market. Judging from their demo, it seemed that they were going more towards the social networking crowd. They emphasied all the web 2.0 site integration. Would businesses like their employees having facebook integrated into their phones? I don't think so, as most businesses block access to these sites!

Colligan is quoted as saying their (Palm's) target is the 'fat middle'. Somewhere between the trendiness of the iPhone and the buttoned-up Blackberry. No one device is going to suit everybody, so choice is welcome. Palm don't have to own all of the smartphone sector to make money.

The whole social/Web 2.0 thing is key, I think. Facebook isn't the only social network. MS are pushing Live now. Linked-in is used by professionals. Messaging is SMS, IM, even Twitter. Calendars are work or private, Google, Yahoo, Outlook ... The point is that you can aggregate your information - wherever it is. Well, that's the promise. Don't forget, it will have Exchange support too.

@Draupnir - an online application store for the Pre is promised: App Catalog. Palm OS devices have had a huge choice of software over the years much of it delivered OTA recently - see http://appstore.pocketgear.com/palm/ for example.

@long_b - Vodafone are the most likely suspects if anyone is going to sell it here. I've had to get unlocked devices in the past though. So you might have to pay up.

Finally, don't be upset that the Pre appears to have 'just copied' the iPhone, incremental innovation is good. To quote Newton, "If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of Giants". Apple didn't invent multi-touch, they weren't the first to bring out a large screen phone etc, but they put it together in a compelling way and add there own magic. But time and technolgoy don't stand still.

Did I mention cut'n'paste?

strecker

Draupnir wrote: »

Wow, over react much? I think the App Store is what will push the iPhone more mainstream than the business phones you mentioned, appealing to a wider target audience and thus being the dominant device over the next 5 years.

Don't get me wrong, other phones do certain jobs better, they just appeal to smaller audiences. I'm speaking in a business sense and think Apple have created an excellent eco-system.

oh, me "overreact"? :eek:
Don't get me wrong, but the overreaction is certainly on the iphone fanatics' side!!! Hardly a thread on forums, a new phone announcement in the press, heck, hardly anything goes without, "yeah, but the iphone"....

iPhone... 1 1/2 models of purposefully limited, gorgeous phone. But if one questions anything mac/iphone/apple, one "overreacts"? Hahahaha

Ah, whatever...

Draupnir

strecker wrote: »

oh, me "overreact"? :eek:
Don't get me wrong, but the overreaction is certainly on the iphone fanatics' side!!! Hardly a thread on forums, a new phone announcement in the press, heck, hardly anything goes without, "yeah, but the iphone"....

iPhone... 1 1/2 models of purposefully limited, gorgeous phone. But if one questions anything mac/iphone/apple, one "overreacts"? Hahahaha

Ah, whatever...

I'm not an iPhone or Apple fanatic, I have a lot of their products, but I can see past fanboyism thanks. I just think the eco system of iTunes - iPhone - App Store provides them with the opportunity to tap into the widest market of phone users.

Is that not fair?

strecker

Draupnir wrote: »

I'm not an iPhone or Apple fanatic, I have a lot of their products, but I can see past fanboyism thanks. I just think the eco system of iTunes - iPhone - App Store provides them with the opportunity to tap into the widest market of phone users.

Is that not fair?

it is...possibly, and I wasn't attacking you in anyway!
I just find it ridiculous how the world is supposed to revolve around and react to apple and it's one and a half mobile phones, while, say, Nokia alone sell that amount of phones in a fortnight...
etc etc
sorry, was contradicting myself... :P the world just really really doesn't revolve around apple...

Rsaeire

To be honest, I liked when the Pre and this thread was gaining attention, but I disliked when it became a pro/con-iPhone war on words. Every handset, regardless of what bloggers and websites state, does not have to compete with the iPhone.

I for one am looking forward in seeing how popular the Pre might be when released in the US, Europe and the rest of the world. Hopefully Palm stick around for a while, as diversity is key in this industry.

BostonB

Rsaeire wrote: »

To be honest, I liked when the Pre and this thread was gaining attention, but I disliked when it became a pro/con-iPhone war on words. Every handset, regardless of what bloggers and websites state, does not have to compete with the iPhone.

I for one am looking forward in seeing how popular the Pre might be when released in the US, Europe and the rest of the world. Hopefully Palm stick around for a while, as diversity is key in this industry.

Er? Look at the thread title?

Rsaeire

BostonB wrote: »

Er? Look at the thread title?

Oh, I didn't notice the title, my bad! :rolleyes:

Seriously, the thread has been completely derailed by the back and forth between the iPhone haters/lovers. The OP was originally was planning on buying an iPhone but decided to wait until the Pre comes out, so it's not as if the OP slated the iPhone saying how much better the Pre was.

Maybe I should have just replied to you with "Look at the original post much?"

BostonB

Rsaeire wrote: »

....it's not as if the OP slated the iPhone saying how much better the Pre was...

"Palm Pre - does everything the iPhone doesn't "

You must be reading a different thread or something. Palm Pre > iPhone is exactly what the OP did say and went on to list the features which are better on the Palm Pre and "useless" on the iPhone. The OP made this thread a Palm Pre vs iPod debate. The title itself says that. Easy enough to avoid if you don't like it.

BostonB

strecker wrote: »

...
The Pre may well fail, who knows! But hype or not: it won't fail because of the absence of an apple-type appstore! In fact: hey, there was no appstore when the first iphone came out! There was no appstore for the n95 that sold what? 10 million and counting!
The viewty!? Etc etc.....

Curious about your figures. I wouldn't have a clue either way. But your comment prompted me to look up some figures.

http://www.intomobile.com/2007/12/06/apple-iphone-outsells-lg-prada-htc-touch-nokia-n95-in-europe.html

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080123-the-truth-about-the-iphones-sales-numbers.html

The iPhone is outselling phones with far more features, indeed most of the features of the Palm Pre are already on the market in other phones. The iPhone is still selling well regardless. I can only assume therefore that theres something else that drawing people to the iPhone. I think its too simplistic to say its just marketing. The iPhone may be a mediocre phone, in terms of features. But it obviously works well for a lot of people. I think its down to good design and knowing what the market wants.

strecker

BostonB wrote: »

think its too simplistic to say its just marketing. The iPhone may be a mediocre phone, in terms of features. But it obviously works well for a lot of people. I think its down to good design and knowing what the market wants.

no, it's marketing!
That, and consumer stockholm syndrome! Customers feel taken hostage by their overpriced aggressive device, and now fool other and themselves they love the enemy hahaha...
Btw: your links link to really old pages! Those figures say nuddin' much!
Also: with apple's 'strategy' of only doing one phone, and hyping that ad absurdum...it'd probably be more appropriate to compare it to the entire N-series, or the entire E-series.

Anyway: the Pre is better! And unless they f*ck it up, people will realise it! Apart from the iphone owners, of course (myself excluded)!

godskitchen

strecker wrote: »

Anyway: the Pre is better! And unless they f*ck it up, people will realise it! Apart from the iphone owners, of course (myself excluded)!

Count me in that too...........as soon as the Pre is out here or in the UK the iphone is gone!

BostonB

strecker wrote: »

no, it's marketing!
That, and consumer stockholm syndrome! Customers feel taken hostage by their overpriced aggressive device, and now fool other and themselves they love the enemy hahaha...
Btw: your links link to really old pages! Those figures say nuddin' much!
Also: with apple's 'strategy' of only doing one phone, and hyping that ad absurdum...it'd probably be more appropriate to compare it to the entire N-series, or the entire E-series.

...

At least I linked to something. Its not like the figures changed as they got older. Customers get taken hostage by something they haven't bought, so then go and buy it. Er wha?

The only thing thats directly comparable is the new iPhone clones they are making. The touch screen phones like the N97/5800/Blackberry Storm/Samsung omnia etc.

strecker

BostonB wrote: »

At least I linked to something. Its not like the figures changed as they got older. Customers get taken hostage by something they haven't bought, so then go and buy it. Er wha?

The only thing thats directly comparable is the new iPhone clones they are making. The touch screen phones like the N97/5800/Blackberry Storm/Samsung omnia etc.

Hmmm? Kind of. But that wasn't my point!
Apple can concentrate their entire hot air output on 1 model. They only have to worry about the phone working on one network per country. And they can hype apps in their store that bring fearures that are taken for granted in just about every other phone...
Tell me it's not naughty marketing when you release a product with limited functionality and every 'patch' and 'bandaid' you offer becomes this 'big release'?!!!

Before the iphone people were generally annoyed with fw updates and the fact they were necessary. Apple turned fw updates into sth fantastic. Sth to celebrate. A mac-party!!!

.... Stop....rewind....
Palm Pre's the subject. Damn, you got me again?

CivilEx

Any rumors yet as to what the Pre is likely to cost?

godskitchen

CivilEx wrote: »

Any rumors yet as to what the Pre is likely to cost?

$399 sim free, so say engadget, only guessing though

ozymandius

Good post from an iPhone perspective on the iPhone Blog - nearly balanced




http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2009/01/13/palm-pre-stole-iphone-iphone-steal-pre/

bk

Excellent article describing the strengths and weaknesses of all the major smart phones and what the iPhone needs to copy from them to improve and compete:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/15/what-apple-could-learn-from-palms-webos/#continued

One thing interesting to note, many of the features that the iPhone lack, have been on Jailbroken iPhones for the last year, such as spotlight, multitasking and front screen notifications (absolutely excellent).

BostonB

As phones get more complex, firmware and updates are envitable. Its part of modern living people are going to have to get used to. Sat boxes, cars, computers, phones. Etc.

I think the majority of people who buy iPhone aren't buying on features. They are looking for something else. So adding more features isn't what THAT market is looking for. The majority are very unlikely to update firmware, or unlock/Jailbreak their iPhones. The people who won't buy the iPhone because of its lack of features are existing smartphone/pda users, and they are most likely the ones to buy the Pre. They are different markets IMO.

Which will be more popular. A Pre or a N97 or 5800 Express ?

bk

BostonB wrote: »

Which will be more popular. A Pre or a N97 or 5800 Express ?

I believe the Pre by a long way, specially in the US market, where phones like the Palm Centro have been very popular and Palm has a strong fan base.

Nokia has never done well in the US and I must say Nokia are looking fairly sickly as the likes of Apple, RIM, Palm and HTC eat up their market share.
Of course Nokia continues to have massive market share, but I've seen nothing from to make me think that it won't quickly decrease. Nokia high end smart phone market has been destroyed by Apple and others.

Also I disagree with you on why people buy the iPhone. Well there might be a few who bought it simply because it is Apple, most people who bought it are early adopters, gadget freaks, techies and power users and they most certainly splashed out because of the features. Sure not traditional phone features like 5 megapixel camera, but features like great iPod/iTunes integration, excellent web surfing ability, excellent email integration, etc.

These are all now very important features for a phone (perhaps more important then the camera now) and these features on the iPhone are better by a massive margin then on any other current phone. Thus the success of the iPhone IMO.

Therefore I believe it will be very important for Apple to keep adding new features and improving on existing ones, or when it comes time to upgrade, many of these early adopters, gadget freaks, techies and power users will go elsewhere.

Sure Apple would still have many customers, but without these early adopters, Apple will never reach some of the predictions that some analysts are making (that eventually Apple will overtake Nokias total phone market share and not just smart phones) and I'm sure Apple want that too.

BostonB

We're talking about the same thing. I'm calling it features, you are calling it traditional phone features. I disagree in that I think theres a lot more average Joes' buying the iPhone than the typical gadget technophile. Though obviously some of those bought it as well. The average punter doesn't want a brick like the N95 or a clunky interface like Windows Mobile.

I'm sure why you think the US market preference is important to us here in Ireland. Its a different market and I can't imagine Palm is other than a minor player here now. I've been a palm user for years. You hardly see them now. I think the traditional Palm user in Ireland was primarily the business user, they seem to have mostly migrated to RIM. I'm still using a E2 myself, having had a VX and a III in the past.

Apple has rarely chased the big market share by chasing big business, or staying outside its target market. They seem to content to target a specific market and make a heathly profit in it. If they have to be different, they are content to do that. Look how the iPod never got a FM radio, which would have been a big crowd pleaser. Etc.

If you go back to the Pre, its added a load of features and copied the Mac interface heavily. Its not offering anything different, other than more features, and its not as nice looking (Subjectively).

strecker

@bk,
Unless I haven't had enough coffee yet, your logic is flawed:
If Nokia's smartphones/highend handsets have never had a strong presence in the US of A, as you correctly state, how can Apple have affected them? Surely not in the way you say! It'll be just as hard for Nokia as it's been for a while. And the reason is possibly nit so much Nokia's handsets, but rather the underdeveloped networks and the stranglehold of operators! I just read e.g. that one US operator has pretty much removed everything from the e71 that makes it so great: gps, voip etc etc....

Everywhere else in the world, the iphone is realistically still a nicheplayer! Nokia, e.g. rules supreme in India - a massive market that got the 5800, the e71, the e63 etc long before it hit Europe! Motorola and samsung are worldwide ruling the touchscreen phone market! Yes: Motorola!
We here tend to ignore Asia where Apple is a drop in the ocean when it comes to phones!

And I agree with BostonB: the average iPhone buyer is not a gadget/tech-freak! The hype about iPhone jailbreaking and unlocking gives the impression, but I'm certain it isn't so!
80 percent of mobile users DO NOT KNOW what handset model they use according to repeated surveys! they do not upgrade fw's or even ask for an unlock code for their phone. Sure, iphone buyers know their phone is an iphone, but that doesn't make them more tech-curious, and considering the price, I doubt it makes them more risk-taking!
I have personally encountered a number of iphone owners here and in Germany and in England who were surprised that my wm phone and my e71 can access the internet, and in the case of the E71 even proper youtube and google video... So tech-savvy are they that they fell for the hype that the iPhone 'brought mobile web to phones'!!!

You mustn't mistake the people on forums like this as 'average'!

I know exactly one other person who frequents phone forums! Despite the fact that I know a LOT of people with highend mobiles!

Back to the Pre:
It's still early days! Important things like sync are still not fully explained (what if you're not into facebook and all that stuff?)...
As to the 5800 and n97 - the 5800 is already a big hit wherever it's released: in Moscow it sold out in hours with iphone like queues! Without any major ad campaigns!!!

The n97 will have massive appeal to the HTC crowd and the n-series fans!

I read an awful article on macdailynews the other days where a gloating mac-boy attacked Palm in a very nasty way. Stating how Apple could buy Palm with petty cash... That is how Nokia feel towards the iphone! It's one competitor. And not yet an important one, whatever Apple's hype-machine churns out, world wide the iphone is nothing! A phenomenal nothing, sure!

An interesting article: 'could apple outsell nokia?': http://forums.ixplora.com/index.php?showtopic=4732&pid=21641&st=0&#entry21641

BostonB

I don't think Apple (or Jobs at least) has any interest in expanding into the wider mobile phone market.

strecker

BostonB wrote: »

I don't think Apple (or Jobs at least) has any interest in expanding into the wider mobile phone market.

Excellent point.
Their strategy has served them well for years, and it's not like they wouldn't be abe to churn out cheap lappies or desktops - heck: just look at the bizarre pricing policy when comparing ipod touch and iphone!
Once you enter nokia's or acer's realm, it becomes an entirely different game! Not even counting the 'fashion' factor...

bk

BostonB wrote: »

I don't think Apple (or Jobs at least) has any interest in expanding into the wider mobile phone market.

I agree, but they (and pretty much all industry analysts) expect the smart phone market to grow into the wider phone market and that Apple will greatly benefit from this at the expense of Nokia.

Given the pace of tech development and falling prices, it isn't hard to believe that 5 years from now, todays iPhone will likely be available as a cheap pay as you go phone, at least in western markets.

Today 3G, 5 megapixel, colour phones are the norm, 5 years ago that was unimaginable, it isn't hard to imagine smart phones being the norm in 5 years time, personally I give it only 3 years.