Is it time the polish went home

wolfpawnat

gandalf wrote: »

Our economy is run better. You are kidding right. The way the government has managed things is farcical and continues to be a complete and utter joke.

Yes it is a joke, as I stated before I am going to get f all after the baby is born, but we have more money (or so we are told) circulating around our economy than Poland. Yes I know the money is too often put to the wrong use in this country(politicians pockets):)

ntlbell

wolfpawnat wrote: »

There really is no need to be narky, this is a discussions board, not a ram your ideas down someone elses throat board! I merely stated my opinion as I am legally entitled to do.

You can have an argument with someone without getting childish. No question is stupid unless we were all trained economic and political specialists educated solely in the field of modern Polish-Irish affairs

I'm supposed to be the hormonal one by being 35 weeks pregnant but you should calm down and try to have a conversation without getting petty.
:)

first of all you start harping on about what they claim on the social.

When you were questioned on that you said it was off topic, now your claiming polish companies wont hire Irish people in Poland based on a stupid article in a thrashy newspaper.

Then claim how well ran our economy is.

It's not ramming any ideas down anyones throat your making unfounded accusations I'm merely presenting you with a few facts

ntlbell

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Yes it is a joke, as I stated before I am going to get f all after the baby is born, but we have more money (or so we are told) circulating around our economy than Poland. Yes I know the money is too often put to the wrong use in this country(politicians pockets):)

you said benefits were off topic why do you keep bringing it up?

does the social welfare not pay 220e a week while your on maternity leave? (if you are)

will you not get children's allowance?

As I said your free to move to any EU country if you feel you will be better treated somewhere else

gandalf

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Yes it is a joke, as I stated before I am going to get f all after the baby is born, but we have more money (or so we are told) circulating around our economy than Poland. Yes I know the money is too often put to the wrong use in this country(politicians pockets):)

Firstly who is telling you we have more money than Poland? They are a country of 38 million people who are getting bundles of EU aid like we did in the 80's and early 90's?

The reality is Poles living here will be moving home soon because employment prospects are better there than here.

The question you should be asking is what are the government doing to ensure my child will have a good future rather than rants about foreigners and welfare.

The question you should be asking is what are this government doing to ensure I have employment prospects to provide for my childs future not picking on a minority because they are an easy target.

wolfpawnat

ntlbell wrote: »

first of all you start harping on about what they claim on the social.

When you were questioned on that you said it was off topic, now your claiming polish companies wont hire Irish people in Poland based on a stupid article in a thrashy newspaper.

Then claim how well ran our economy is.

It's not ramming any ideas down anyones throat your making unfounded accusations I'm merely presenting you with a few facts

Gandalf that message was aimed at ntlbell not you so sorry if you thought I was attacking you for no reason.

I never harped on about it, I merely made a statement.

There has been more of a discussion on this "no Irish" topic than just a trashy newspaper, as someone who has not had time to get a newspaper in the last while I have no idea what trashy paper you are refering to.

I am not saying Ireland is well run, I am saying it is better run than Poland. That is not saying oh my god we're brilliant or anything.

I am not picking on a minority, like many Irish people I have worked and befriended alot of foreigners and alot of them were Polish, I have nothing against the people of Poland I am merely saying if the are saying we cant work there why should they work here. If that statement is completely false then I have no problem with them continuing to work here.

ntlbell

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Gandalf that message was aimed at ntlbell not you so sorry if you thought I was attacking you for no reason.

I never harped on about it, I merely made a statement.

There has been more of a discussion on this "no Irish" topic than just a trashy newspaper, as someone who has not had time to get a newspaper in the last while I have no idea what trashy paper you are refering to.

I am not saying Ireland is well run, I am saying it is better run than Poland. That is not saying oh my god we're brilliant or anything.

You brought it up in two posts you wont get any benifits?

The reason the discussions have been happening was because the article was released.

What makes you think Ireland is currently being managed better than Poland?

can you give some examples?

gandalf

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I am not saying Ireland is well run, I am saying it is better run than Poland. That is not saying oh my god we're brilliant or anything.

Have you ever been to Poland?

I was in Krakow before Christmas and it seemed to be that they were running it fairly well.

I certainly could not say they were worse at running their country than we are so I would be very interested in how you came to that conclusion?

herya

wolfpawnat wrote: »

There has been more of a discussion on this "no Irish" topic than just a trashy newspaper, as someone who has not had time to get a newspaper in the last while I have no idea what trashy paper you are refering to.

I have nothing against the people of Poland I am merely saying if the are saying we cant work there why should they work here. If that statement is completely false then I have no problem with them continuing to work here.

You believe in some urban legend on par with swan eating. There are tonnes of Irish and British expats there working away happily. If such a sign has ever existed (highly doubtful) it was most likely a joke.

havana

Might sound cliched and childish but two wrongs don't make a right. Just because they may not wish to employ irish (which i really don't believe is true) doesn't mean we should have the same attitude. EU citizens have rights when it come to movement for work. If the system is not working properly then advocate for change but i think its dangerous business to be singling out one nation because we have mismanaged our economy.

pepsicokeacola

first of all their citizens of the eu, and second of all why dont you target the british the largest reported non-irish population living here...officialy.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ionix5891

"quick get on the pile!"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6610212795155043011

Serenity Now!

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Well if they are not going to employ any Irish, and they too are in the EU and the free movement of labour laws are SUPPOSED to apply to them too, then why are we still employing them? We are being let go from our jobs by the lorry load and the amount of Polish on our welfare system is absolute madness. I'm sorry to sound racist but we need to treat them as they are treating us!

I am currently attending a maternity hospital for ante-natal appointments and there is a social welfare/worker department there too, I went in to ask a question on getting the dads name on the birth cert and the amount of Eastern European women writing out all the benefits they can get is madness and in several cases I heard them say they are having babies here ONLY for our benefits. I'm sorry but I wont get sweet f all when my baby is born and I have paid taxes and I am Irish and these women are using our system rather than go home and work there!

The shash about not empoying any Irish is a sourceless planted piece in certain populist media publications. Go on, source the source.

If you or your spouse pays tax in this country (or any country for that matter) you are entitled to whatever social benefits you qualify for, even if it something as ridiculous as giving an allowance to households living above the poverty line for having flippin' children.
If the people on this list of yours are from families who have paid tax to the Exchequer's coffers then why the hell are they any bloody different to you? Their nationality does not make you qualify more than they.

oxygen_old

The issues in this thread are from what I see, Polish taking Irish Jobs, Polish taking Irish welfare, Polish not contributing to Irish economy and Polish not making any effort to integrate.

On each of these points:
Polish taking Irish Jobs : The jobs are there for the Irish. There is no Irish employer that wouldn't prefer to hire an Irish person than a Polish person but the Irish dont want the jobs. I work in a bar at weekends and I see tonnes of Polish people working there, taking table orders, cleaning, collecting glasses (not so much behind the bar, I think the language is an issue) The Irish dont want these jobs, Im not sure if that will change with time as they are, will wait and see, but Polish have no advantage in getting these jobs. Same goes with the construction industry they were all working in, jobs were there for the Irish as well. (however I dont know enough to comment on Spark's, chippies and other trades men that were out priced by Polish)

Polish taking Irish welfare: It does seem unfair to have to look after the Polish here rather than in their own country. But there havent been that many Poles that came over here and didnt work and claimed welfare. They paid tax here long enough, if they need unemployment benefits they should get it. This is Irish and European law. The problem I see here is the Irish welfare system. I work full time on an above average Irish wage during the week, then I work in a bar at weekends. I know several people with part time jobs on welfare than bring home far much more than me on a weekly basis. This is absolutely ridiculous. If people see more advantage to not working, of course they are not going to. The system needs to be shook up asap.

Polish not contributing to Irish economy : Polish dont drink and spend as much as Irish. I think if anyone needs to learn from this budgeting its the Irish, not the Polish.

Polish not making any effort to integrate: They do tend to stay to there own. If there was an influx of Irish people to Poland (not looking unrealistic) can you say you wouldnt hang with the local Irish? I know I would. I think whats bothering the Irish people about this is that the Polish are a particullarly good looking people for the most part. The men and women look after themselves, far more on average than the Irish do. (myself included in that)

AlekSmart

This is one of those threads where there is a very serious issue struggling to emerge through the mist.

However,as with many such issues in Irish history,our native unwillingness to be direct and forthright leaves us with stuff hangin in the air...left unsaid..."you know yourself `ism"

Our Political map since Independence is littered with the deified corpses of those Politicians who made careers out of speaking from the corners of their (many) mouths.

We collectively went out and created Politicial dynasties comprised of the most ill-suited duplicitous Political Vagrants to be found anywhere.

BUT..We did that freely and with no Oppressors Riding Boot resting on our necks,and we did it repeatedly over a 70 year period which saw an entire nation apparently believe that it was necessary to petition the Pope in order to get a medical card or a telephone.

What we are left with now is a Nation which is bereft of self-confidence at every level.

One of the notable points concerning the Polish is how we have come to regard them as a somewhat dour grouping,who came here only to work and did`nt seem particularly interested in the Irish "Craic".

Oh yes how we sneered at the young Pole who was always in first of a Monday morning...and last out of a Saturday afternoon.

Yes many of those poles lived in hard conditions drinking a copious amount of spirits,but it rarely interefered with their ability to work a full and productive week.

Many of the Poles I know took on board every opportunity to secure the qualifications which would be of use to them in the "New" Poland when they returned.

We Irish have come to distrust such levels of personal application or forward planning.
We appear to regard it as some remanant of oul Presbeterian thinking which only interferes with our "Here come`s the Weekend" ethos.

The returning Polish workers are going to reap the benefits of what they learned here,already we hear glowing praise about their committment,enthusiasm and desire to better themselves from the newly arrived Employers in their country.

Its equally interesting to see mention of other nationalities such as the Latvian`s or Lithuanian`s.

Sadly for many of us,any young Eastern European worker became a "Pole".
We could`nt be bothered to learn a little about these people who so rapidly took a foothold at every level in Èire Nua.

"Pole" was a nice easy short word,simple to pronounce and full of connations with pole dancing....(Ha Ha Ha !!).

We also convienently decided to disregard the reality that this generation of young Eastern European folk were coming from a vast country which was still in places dominated by REAL hardship.

Our native pre-occupation with John Bull`s oppression left us blind to the level of determination which surviving the Nazi occupation and it`s attendant pogroms had given to our young Polish guests.

The ghettos of Warsaw,the place names such as Lodz,Chelmno,Treblinka all served to frame the development of these people and we collectively cared not a whit.

The sacking of Balbriggan and the burning of the Four Courts assumes a somewhat different status when placed alongside the vast numbers of Polish which another Educated,Civilized European country had decided were unfit to live.

My point,perhaps poorly made,is that this recession,depression or whatever is showing us some very glaring gaps which exist in our social development as a race.
It is indicating that as a culture we rushed to embrace and develop a decadent and largely pointless economy,where the activities of a few Builders,Developers and Snake Oil salesmen became the stuff of legend.

I really don`t believe we are aware of just how far we have left to fall....

ejmaztec

Xenophobia results from complete and utter narrow-minded hypocrisy and ignorance. It's a pity that the Xenophobes haven't got their own little place to go to. If it were not for the influx of foreigners, they would be blaming someone else for their inadequacies.

ionix5891

i think its envy

these people work hard and they look after themselves

fair play to them

anyways about time some people woke up and realized that Ireland is part of EU and the wider world, and globalization plays for and against us

i for one dont want to go back to the old days and i hope some irish people become more open minded, for their own good, maybe go and travel a bit

Fighting Irish

seanybiker wrote: »

Since a load of em worked in the building trade I would count that as contributing to the economy. Its not their fault we have a government who couldnt organise a piss up in a brewery.
If we send them back why dont we take back all the Irish all over the world who are living in places illegally. While we are at it sure we may aswell take back all the
Descendants of Irish people who legged it during the famine.

its also not their fault so many people paid over 300K for these small houses and now many of these people are fooked

O'Morris

From an economic point of view it would help things if there were fewer people in the country competing for a shrinking number of available jobs. According to this article in the economist, if 20,000 people left the country we could see unemployment fall by a percentage point.

But the political significance is clear: if 20,000 workers from eastern Europe left Ireland, that would reduce unemployment by about a percentage point. Departing Poles would take their spending power with them, admittedly. But on balance, if they leave, it will be another reward for open labour markets. For the first time, a jump in Irish unemployment may be offset by non-nationals leaving the country.

gandalf

O'Morris they already are leaving in droves.

See this article for details.

ionix5891

O'Morris wrote: »

From an economic point of view it would help things if there were fewer people in the country competing for a shrinking number of available jobs. According to this article in the economist, if 20,000 people left the country we could see unemployment fall by a percentage point.

50,000 people (according to papers, including "natives") are gonna leave the country this year


just hope they are not the more skilled and educated people...

Amalgam

COLM: Hello there Father.

TED: Ah, hello Colm. Out and about?

COLM: Ah, same as yourself.

TED: Good good.

COLM: I hear you're a racist now Father.

TED: Wha...What?

COLM: How did you get interested in that type of thing?

TED: Who said I'm a racist?

COLM: Everyone's sayin' it Father. Should we all be racist now? What's the official line the church is takin' on this.

TED: No, no.

COLM: Only the farm takes up most of the day and at night I just like a cup of tea. I mightn't be able to devote meself to the oul' racism.

MRS. CARBERRY: Good for you Father.

TED: What? Oh, Mrs. Carberry!

MRS. CARBERRY: Good for you Father. Well someone had the guts to stand up to them at last. Comin' over here, takin' our jobs and our women and actin' like they own the feckin' place. Well done Father. Good for you. Good for you. I'd like to feckin....

MRS. CARBERRY: Feckin' Greeks.

COLM: It isn't the Greeks, it's the Chinese he's after.

TED: I'm not after the Chinese.

MRS. CARBERRY: I don't care who he gets so long as I can have a go at the Greeks. They invented gayness!

TED: Look, we are not having a go at anybody. I am not a racist, alright. God!

MRS. CARBERRY: Feckin' Greeks!

COLM: How's Mary?

MRS. CARBERRY: She's fine. She got that job after all.

COLM: Great!

O'Morris

gandalf wrote:

O'Morris they already are leaving in droves.

See this article for details.

That's good news then as it might make it easier for the people who are out of work in this country to get back into employment.

The figure of 1,300 Poles leaving each week is not really of much use on its own as we would need to subtract the number of people entering the country to arrive at the net difference. It's unlikely that there more Poles entering the country than are leaving but it would interesting to find out if the latter is significantly higher than the former.

ionix5891 wrote:

50,000 are gonna leave the country this year

Do you know how many Poles and other non-nationals are expected to enter the country this year?

ionix5891

O'Morris wrote: »

That's good news then as it might make it easier for the people who are out of work in this country to get back into employment.

The figure of 1,300 Poles leaving each week is not really of much use on its own as we would need to subtract the number of people entering the country to arrive at the net difference. It's unlikely that there more Poles entering the country than are leaving but it would interesting to find out if the latter is significantly higher than the former.




Do you know how many Poles and other non-nationals are expected to enter the country this year?

thats 50000 net in people leaving the country after incoming migrants are counted (i.e people coming in vs people coming out)

so people are leaving, some papers even say it wasn't this high during the worst years of the 80s here

seanybiker

ntlbell wrote: »

they make everything look hot tho

thats all that matters really

patchquinn

The Irish economy is in the state it's in because of people who have short term, self-interested perspectives. The base reactionary sentiments expressed by some in this thread reflect that. I moved back to Ireland a few years ago and I was disappointed. I saw a lot of greed and egocentrism possessed by people with perspectives that did not extend beyond their own limited desire to satisfy selfish wants. (Not needs; wants.) Unfortunately, some of these people were in positions of considerable influence as politicians and major employers(construction industry)
But our initial economic growth happened because Ireland benifited from the free travel, free work, and free trade, and considerable investment that our membership of the EU provided. We were only net contributors to the EU in the last years of our boom. To reap those benfits we have to subscribe to the ethos of the EU, which is one or reciprocration.
Suggestions we should abandon the principles that allowed us to grow 15 years ago, and that immigrants should some how go back to where the came from, spring from the same self-centred small minded unrestrained thinking that built houses of cards on the foundations of sustainable economic growth that EU policies laid for us. The construction boom required revenues from external trade. We can't print money.
RE ABUSING THE SYSTEM: You will always find some anecdotal evidence of immigrants abusing the system, but it is usually quiet small because they don;t kow the system aswell as us and they are watched more. I would like to see hard figures of how much the system is abused by irish people, not just welfare abuse; I include the sole-traders who did not pay all their taxes during the boom years, the expense abusers, the politicians with their parochial mindsets bloating the public sector (for votes) rather than building a sustainable economy, the public sector employess who benchmarked themselves against the most successful individuals in the private sector and who aren't willing to take wage cuts now, the firms that paid foreign nationals less that natives, (when they paid them at all), the landlords and developers who sold and rented sub-standard homes at exhorbitant prices.
I paid much more tax in europe but I could see it was going into roads, education and hospitals. Here taxes go into public sector workers pockets. (It used to be the public service not the public sector...remember... back when people had ideals....) I often felt like leaving myself because I didn't want to contirbute to such waste.

Leaving:
The majority of those that came here benifited and contributed to our growth. The link above shows that some are already leaving, many will leave if they find a better opportunity elsewhere, because people who travel thousands of miles to work are the kind of proactive people who contribute to economic growth and the exchange of knowledge and ideas that enterprise requires. They don't take credit for or negate the contributions of others and they don't sit around waiting for things to get better and blaming others for their problems; they act. In the same way many of the Irish did since the famine times.


I wonder how europe views our excess of the last ten years, we have been on one big literal and figurtive binge. We showed no restraint, but we should show some now when we criticise those we have needed in the past and whom we will certainly need in the future. (Who do you think will contibute more to the EU in ten years time, Ireland or Poland?)
Some of the xenophobic sentiments expressed by some people in this thread are disappointing but not unexpected. I heard similar comments directed towards the Irish when I lived in Europe. They come from fear and ignorance.

Lets thank the Polish for coming over here when we needed them, lets hope those that have made a home for themselves in ireland still feel welcome, and lets not negate the welcome we showed them at the start by insulting them now, because in the current climate we need more friends than enemies.

jmayo

The more I read this thread and some of the others appearing of late in this forum, the more I would recommend that the EU doesn't bother pushing for another Lisbon referendum, but move instead to kick Ireland out.
We hate the Eastern Europeans, we don't want their coutnries to benefit form EU money, we want them all to p*** off home, we don't want Europe or it's people so why shoudl they want us.

If I was an immigrant (but especially if I was a Pole) who has contributed to the economy as they all did in some way or another, I would be very p***ed off with the attitude displayed by some of our so called educated Irish.
Maybe O'Morris is right when he state our IQ is low (see another simlar thread).

The poles (and other Eastern Europeans and Asians) were very welcome here when they were cleaning up after us, making us sandwiches and helping to build us houses/apartments, that we then were ever so gracious in renting to them at extortionist prices.

Of course now they are to blame for our housing boom (if they didn't come we wouldn't have built all those houses and the prices wouldn't have gone up so much), our fall in retail trade- because they are not spending enough and hell maybe even the banks problems - because they don't save enough like us Irish, but send it home to their families back in the old country, an alien concept to us Irish :rolleyes:

No wonder we have such a f***ed up country with a mickey mouse government.
We as a nation had an inflated opinion of ourselves over last numebr of years where we thought all of Europe, indeed the world, was envious of how well we were doing and how many nice little shiny objects we had accumlated.
We were acting like a nation of little kids who had wandered into a sweet shop with no adult around to reign in our excesses.

If anything these foreigners were watching us with a sense of incredulity, often laughing at us whilst they flogged us overpriced property, and wondering what the hell we would do once the wind ran out of our construction bubble.
As previous poster said we (Ireland) got really greedy, we became a nation of compulsive spenders trying to outdo each other with fancy convertibles, BMW 3 series, a holiday home in the sun, a trip to NY for christmas shopping and a few weekends away sometimes to the very places that the people who cleaned our toliets had originally left months before.

I grew up in an area, in a family, in a time when people had to emigrate to make a living. We were glad that some forieng country took us in, sometimes they begruded us being there and often they just tolerated us.
Of course we would be different if it was that was hosting those foreigners, we were the funlovin friendly Irish, a nation famed for it's welcome of strangers.
How short our memories :rolleyes:

CCCP^

Oh hur hur hur, the Poles are going home to work in Dell! They took our jobs! Hur hur hur

Mr.Micro

Next the bigots here in Ireland will be blaming them Polish fellas for the downturn, it was'nt FF at all. With some of the attitudes in Ireland I will bet many Poles will be glad to see the back of Failte Ireland.

Serenity Now!

This is one bilious thread.

The country is barely over a decade out of the previous sh*theap it was in and already some of these very forgetful nouveaux-riches 'New Irelanders' have turned into spoilt and spiteful xenophobes. Eastern & Baltic Europeans are part of the success of this country's purple period. Not the cause of its demise.

Economic migration is not a new phenomenon. It has been around way before the EEC/EU ever came into existance. In fact, I'd say its a safe bet that 80% or more of the monocular spiters of any Eastern or Baltic Europeans having the gall to go earn some money abroad have either done the very same themselves or have immediate family who have done so.

If somebody pays tax in this country, they have contributed to the country. Remember that. Its not their fault if you're mortgaged to the neck, have an extra car loan, more than one credit card and need money to put Sorcha-Eilís and Pearse-Oisín into a f**king Irish-speaking school.

Bitter, jealous, hypocrites. :rolleyes: