Is it time the polish went home

WooPeeA

Fighting Irish wrote: »

sure we'll all quote the newspapers

I know few people working in the construction in Poland, including one Irishman and all of them seemed to be surprised reading this article as nobody noticed anything like that in there.

johndaman66

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Not so much funny as it is scandelous I reckon. It depends really on what side of the fence you are on I suppose. If you were an employer it certainly suited you so why complain. I know for one I was levelling blame at the policymakers and the sheeple when times were better as I knew what was happening could not be sustained. I wonder if the employers in ancillary businesses who are directly affected from the closure of DELL still see things the same way?

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I do realise that is the case also. Again you may link that back to the covert shennanigans of Ill scratch your back if you scratch mine that exists in high up positions of power and money in this country (something that may be an issue of the past going forward hopefully)

Serenity Now!

coolwater wrote: »

Apparently on a lot of building sites in Poland they have signs up saying " No Irish Need Apply" - disgraceful . enough is enough

A lovely example of how planted media material can snowball thanks to those who don't bother to read into it.
'Apparently' or 'Allegedly', eh? I asked someone else to do this but can you actually source the source of this rumour?

johndaman66

Serenity Now! wrote: »

[/i]
Its not a personal attack. Its an example of the logic on which the person was posting. I don't think that about Cork or people from Cork. Its a myth. Very much like the myth that Eastern and Baltic Europeans only contribute to a trade vacuum.

That certainly ain't the way it came across in the piece I quoted from you in the initial piece which I quoted from you. Its very fair to say that a reasonably intellegent reader would view what you wrote as a personal attack and generalisation against Cork people but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

This is another case of Ireland taking all it can from the EU and not contributing to it. One of the original conditions of the EC/EEC/EEA/EU trade agreements is freedom of mobility of labour.

It depends what way you look at it. Greed exists no doubt but then again many other EU member states have immigration barriers in place or at least from time to time have such barriers in place and think that in a small open economy like Ireland such should be in place or should have in the past. Predominantly to protect the more vulnerable members of society.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

All you've proven there is that an alleged hardship breeds irrational xenophobia.

As stated previously I have nothing against Eastern European people. For the most part they would appear to be relatively friendly and decent people. My issue lies with the numbers of them allowed into the country and as a result of which certain problems have arisen (a certain proportion of the cause can be attributed to the large influx). I suppose this depends on how you have being affected. If you are in stable employment and aren't living i a house you bought in the last few years and now find yourself in negative equity its all good and well I'm sure. All I want is reasonably comfortable and affordable living standards for myself and my family. Please note I am not taking issue with Polls or Eastern Europeans as a people. Just with the numbers of them who have being allowed enter this country (for sound economic reasons).

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Isn't hindsight a fine thing?

No doubt it is. A bit of foresight is better though and hopefully lessons will be learned from this episode.

MySelf56

As some body pointed out polish are not shopping expensive shops like M & S / Tesco/Dunnes. Let us say they are buying the goods only in eastren european shops even that shop owner is polish/eastren european,has to pay RENT to Irish lovely landlord and customer has to pay VAT to revenue. If there is no VAT and RENT let me know I will be the first person to open store offer 10% discount boardies..

Last night dublin bus hijack the driver is Chinese Origin, isn't that really tell you some thing? Irish have deserted not just catering jobs, even Dublin bus driver jobs. May be irish thought bank over draft is actually part of salary, credit card birth right and inflated house prices are sustainable economy.

As i have said similar thread other context, if they left rental market will collapse (no body is going take shoe box apartments) further lesser pay to landlords dot ie.

Its no brainer

johndaman66

MySelf56 wrote: »

Let us say they are buying the goods only in eastren european shops even that shop owner is polish/eastren european,has to pay RENT to Irish lovely landlord and customer has to pay VAT to revenue.

FYI One thing I will point out to you there is that there is no VAT on most and the basic type foods and a lower VAT rate on other foodstuffs.

Kintarō Hattori

How did I miss this gem of a thread?!

coolwater wrote: »

Apparently on a lot of building sites in Poland they have signs up saying " No Irish Need Apply" - disgraceful . enough is enough , I know alot of Polish people living here that have children back in Poland & are claiming Childrens allowence here . It disgusts me!

There was a HUGE thread on this in After Hours last week or so and you know what..... it was locked as no-one could produce evidence of this sign.

ejmaztec

johndaman66 wrote: »

FYI One thing I will point out to you there is that there is no VAT on most and the basic type foods and a lower VAT rate on other foodstuffs.

That must that every grocery shop-keeper in Ireland isn't paying his fair share of vat, no matter what his nationality is. :eek:

johndaman66

ejmaztec wrote: »

That must that every grocery shop-keeper in Ireland isn't paying his fair share of vat, no matter what his nationality is. :eek:

Its the end customer that pays VAT, not the shop-keeper or the service provider as the case may be. As I already said most foodstuffs have zero VAT or in other cases a lower rate of VAT...

zap27

Can someone please clear up something for me regarding EU nationals and welfare? Say if a Pole came over here 6 months ago, found a job and is now laid off, can they claim the dole indefinitely or is dependant on how long they were employed here?

mikemac

zap27 wrote: »

Can someone please clear up something for me regarding EU nationals and welfare? Say if a Pole came over here 6 months ago, found a job and is now laid off, can they claim the dole indefinitely or is dependant on how long they were employed here?

Has to be employed here for two years.
And by employed I mean paying PRSI and not working cash in hand and then strolling into a SW office and looking for dole money.

You pay your PRSI for the specified period then the system says you qualify

zap27

so if they are employed for 2 years or more they could get irish benefits technically for the rest of their life if they so choose.? does any other eu country have the same policy? seems madness to me

Happy Monday

Must be remembered that the Irish went to the UK and the US in times past and drew social welfare. Anyone in those countries who objected to this was labelled anti Irish by people here.

What goes around.............comes around!

ejmaztec

johndaman66 wrote: »

Its the end customer that pays VAT, not the shop-keeper or the service provider as the case may be. As I already said most foodstuffs have zero VAT or in other cases a lower rate of VAT...

So, who do you think has to pay the vat to the Revenue Commissioners?

havana

In order to qualify for JA (For those who wouldn't have the prsi contributions) people must meet the Habitual Residency Conditions. I can't link to info on it but i'm sure a google search will throw it up. Some good info on the citizens info site

mick.fr

Pfff I am glad nobody started a thread against the French lol...

Solair

herya wrote: »

Not really, France and Germany are open for these workers now (I think, or will be early this year?), Scandinavia is open as is Spain. These are all big markets with much better press than Ireland has. Even if English speaking countries might be more attractive due to English being the most popular language anybody with an ounce of reason would choose UK over Ireland now to look for a job.
...

The UK has also gone down the pan. I've quite a lot of British friends who are losing jobs, taking pay cuts, being cut to part time hours. They've the double whammy of a enormous and very highly paid financial services sector dumping vast numbers of workers and a housing collapse, not unlike our own. Things aren't looking rosy over there at the moment at all!

You also have to remember that a lot of non-Irish/British types pretty much see Ireland and the UK as interchangeable anyway - two large wet islands that speak English and have very liberal economics. Most talk about Dublin, Cork, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Cardiff as if they were the same place. It's pretty much like we might blur Belgium and France or Belgium and The Netherlands... Or, perhaps more like we might blur Denmark, Sweden, Norway (and incorrectly Finland) into "Scandinavia"...

Ireland hasn't yet seen mass retail layoffs either, they're a huge issue in the UK right now and it's certainly making jobs for new immigrants very tough to come by.

As for the sentiment on this thread, I don't think it's very representative of the views of the Irish community at large, only a narrow minority who are basically a bit thick and xenophobic. Sadly, every country has them, in general I don't think Ireland's particularly racist or xenophobic, there are FAR worse examples elsewhere in Europe.

nortal

pepsicokeacola wrote: »

why are people contriving in their thick heads that ireland is some really xenephoic place? it hardly is.

riots on the street? eh no

have you seen ****ings swedens reaction to immigrants? show me any big incidents to the level in sweden that have happened in ireland. **** off all you ****ing ***** who will have a go at the whole of ireland and make general comments all the ****ing time. i know this is only the internet but i find it upsetting. my next door neighbour is from senegal and i come from a middle class estate. you might think people would put their noses up as the guy is clearly living there with goverment help, but no at xmas people bring presents to his kids(mixed) and make him feel part of the street. they dont do this cause hes black but they know its tough being in a new country. irish people are good generally so please stop with your bull**** inferiority, sure isnt everywhere just so much ****ing ebtter than ****ng ireland.

sorry for the rant but ive had enough of the **** being talked here.

Yes that is absolutely correct, Ireland is not a racist country, but the op should be “allowed” to expressed their view without the racist card being thrown at them, otherwise Irish people will feel powerless in their own country.


I have never lived in a country where Irish people are so quick to talk themselves down so much, again this tread it’s the immigrant worker is an angel the Irish worker lazy greedy etc. All my Irish friends work very hard are very well qualified in what they do and are one of the many reasons why the economy became successful pre 2005 until the economy reliad on the building sector too much.

But that doesn’t suit the liberal people who can’t see where the op is coming from, and there response is they do the work we are too good for, load of boll$cks, this would not happen in Scandinavian or France, they would be on the streets. The fighting Irish my arse,

I am beginning to think Irish people will take any thing thrown at them, they allow immigration that took France 30 years to get to in about 3 years here, trained them to do a job, and then the company moves to the country where the employees are from for half the cost, and when an Irish person disagrees with it the Irish say its ok, we are in Europe now and you can’t say things like that in case we are not seen as cool liberal people,

when I get let go because of the economic climate I will now play the race card and say but there is one Irish person in my country if I go they have to come back. Keep up that attitude and you will need all the Irish luck you have, because you are getting Fu4ked all around you.

Now Irish people bend over and take it because you were too PC to stand up for yourselves in your own country, and stand up for your fellow country men

patchquinn

solair is right, irleand is not as xenophobic as some other countries. But this sort of thing starts off small and should not be tolerated...
lest go back to the OP: is it time the polish went home?
For many of the polish who came here a few years ago, they are home. Ireland is their home. They go home every evening. They may still have family and friends in Poland but their home is here. This is where many have made friends and their own family. Just as the many Irish people in america/england/france/german/canada/australia/poland/ec consider themselves at home there.
We can't tolerate any sort of mentality that states that in times of recession nations should encourage their immigrants to go home...Britian in the 80s? ..Go home mick?..... What would you have had the US do in the great depression of the 30's.. tell Paddy to go home...(we all know what kind of mentality became popular in the 30's. do we have to get to the point where people start to form right-wing parties before we recognise the similarities... before it becomes taboo again.. do people have such short memories?)

The Irish diaspora, is often estimated to be between 40 to 80 million... that is 40-80 million people who live abroad but culturally consider themselves to be Irish. Big eh.. now you might argue that some of the poeple who claim themself Irish aren't.. and that argument can be made, so lets entertain it and look at a much tigher definition of Irish diaspora.

"The term Irish diaspora is open to many interpretations. One, preferred by the government of Ireland, is defined in legal terms: the Irish diaspora are those of Irish nationality who habitually reside outside of the island of Ireland. This includes Irish citizens who have emigrated abroad and their children, who are Irish citizens by descent under Irish law. (It may also includes their grandchildren in cases where they were registered as Irish citizens in the Foreign Births Register held in every Irish diplomatic mission...)Under this legal definition, the Irish diaspora is considerably smaller than popular belief - some 3 million persons, of whom 1.2 million are Irish-born emigrants. This is still an extraordinarily large ratio for any nation."
Is it time the Irish went home?
The world works by reciprocoricty.. Ireland opened her borders partly because of EU legislation and partly in a reciprical gesture but mostly because our economy needed the labour during a boom period...and maybe if there are lapses in the immigration policy it is more down to failure of our public sector in implementing them. But, You can't have your cake and eat it.. If you are to entertain the logic of the original post and follow it through.. then the logical conclusion is to take back our diaspora....then where would we be?
problem with the kinda people who sympathise with teh original poster is that they have trouble following argument through to thier logical conclusion..they listen to sound bites and rethoric.. but they don't analysis the aspects of the issue that don't agree with their own greedy ignorant self-centred views of the world.
"The 2001 UK Census states 869,093 people born in Ireland as living in the UK, with over 10% of the country's population (over 6 million) being of Irish descent."
Is it time the Irish went home? Laughable!!!
Cop on anyone who would agree with that and its corollary that the Polish should go back....do the children get to stay? what about those in relationships?.. Must they be unemployed?...How long must they be unemployed? Where is the line in relation to PRSI contributions??..Thse who contirbuted during the boom period will have entitlements and so they should. Let's let social welfare sort that out. (Should young Irish people with only 2 years PRSI contirbutions not be entitled to dole in Ireland/england/us..etc.. two wrongs don't make a right...)
Don't make the Irish look thick..You are embarassing us...follow your argument through to its logical conclusion....think aboout it for a bit..... you can do that, Can't you?. Or are the people who suggest this not only spiteful but simple also.
(all figures from wikipedia...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_diaspora the original sources are referred to in the wiki page.)

andrewh5

Dragous wrote: »

Is it time the polish went home. all they've done is taken their wages and spent them at home. they've contributed nothing to the economy. And they are robbing our social welfare scheme. there are a few working with me here in limerick part time and they say that they won't leave now that dell has left as they can work a few hours here and then draw the dole. I don't mean to offend anyone with this thread. has the problem not been that ireland was too relaxed with out migration laws as enforced by the eu

You are talking complete sh1ite!! I work with loads of Poles who have all made their homes here. They send not one cent back to Poland and have no desire to return there to live. Their children are all in Irish schools and go to sports clubs etc.

_Nuno_

Solair wrote: »

As for the sentiment on this thread, I don't think it's very representative of the views of the Irish community at large, only a narrow minority who are basically a bit thick and xenophobic. Sadly, every country has them, in general I don't think Ireland's particularly racist or xenophobic, there are FAR worse examples elsewhere in Europe.

I completely agree. I was asked several times in the past if I thought Irish people were racist and xenophobic and my answer was always, "not really, but those things usually only come up when the economy goes bad".

Now that the economy has gone bad, I still don't think Irish are racist and xenophobic.

I am sure there are many O'Morris hiding away and trying to making life tougher for foreigners whenever they can (I definitely dealt with them when getting insurance and opening bank accounts), but comparing to other european countries there's very little racism here.

Solair

Personally, I'm of the opinion that we're all in this together. The vast majority of our immigrants are extremely dynamic, flexible and innovative people and are an asset to this country, not a drain on it. They also have a huge vested interest in pushing to improve this situation and are doing so!

Of course there are going to be builders on the dole lines, the building industry has just spectacularly collapsed. What do you expect them to do, starve?

This was due to a combination of typically stupid Fianna Fail (the developer's party) policy and international factors creating a 'perfect storm'. It's going to take these guys a while to find new jobs. Very few of them are likely to want just about survive on dole payments. They came here to make money, a lot of money, not to claim social welfare and just about exist.

I know quite a few Poles and they're all saying that many of the builders are looking for work on the continent, not exclusively just returning to Poland. These guys are quite prepared to move with the building boom.

It's utterly ridiculous to begrudge these guys job seeker allowance, the building sector basically drove our economy for the last 10 years. A HUGE slice of our tax revenue was generated from stamp duty on apartments.

It may have been a totally stupid basis for an economy, but, to say that these guys didn't put money into the Irish economy is just completely mad and shows a deep level of economic ignorance. It wasn't about how many breakfast rolls they bought, it was about the knock-on income that came out of the construction sector.

I am also really sick and tired of pointless threads by xenophobes who seem to think that because a few like-minded people agree with them online that somehow that's reflective of Irish society. The content of an internet forum can be rather drastically at odds with reality of public opinion as people with similar opinions are attracted to post on the same threads.

Racism is a totally ridiculous and counterproductive response to an economic downturn like this. If you want to blame someone, this is a democracy, vote the muppets who got us into this mess out of office, don't just turn on the the very people who lashed tens of billions of tax euros into the economy!

nortal

_Nuno_ wrote: »

I completely agree. I was asked several times in the past if I thought Irish people were racist and xenophobic and my answer was always, "not really, but those things usually only come up when the economy goes bad".

Now that the economy has gone bad, I still don't think Irish are racist and xenophobic.

I am sure there are many O'Morris hiding away and trying to making life tougher for foreigners whenever they can (I definitely dealt with them when getting insurance and opening bank accounts), but comparing to other european countries there's very little racism here.

Oh my God, the insurance company and bank requested you to complete forms so they could substantiate you worked where you said you worked lived where you said you lived and now that is racism, I didn’t think it was racist when thy asked me I though I am a guest here and this is the way things are, if I don’t like it I could leave. Check the word racism in a dictionary, maybe the person you were dealing with was having a bad day, the definition of racism will evolve here to a point like the states where if you’re not on your knees telling people how great they are you are racist

nortal

Solair wrote: »

Personally,
Racism is a totally ridiculous and counterproductive response to an economic downturn like this. If you want to blame someone, this is a democracy, vote the muppets who got us into this mess out of office, don't just turn on the the very people who lashed tens of billions of tax euros into the economy!

What about the tens of billions of tax euro the Irish have put into the economy, are they not allowed to even raise a question you and i might not agree with, but i still think you have a RIGHT in THERE COUNTRY to raise the question, they are the majority and pay the majority of taxes

LordSutch

Dragous wrote: »

Is it time the polish went home. all they've done is taken their wages and spent them at home. they've contributed nothing to the economy. And they are robbing our social welfare scheme. there are a few working with me here in limerick part time and they say that they won't leave now that dell has left as they can work a few hours here and then draw the dole. I don't mean to offend anyone with this thread. has the problem not been that ireland was too relaxed with out migration laws as enforced by the eu

or from another perspective (1950s/60s/70s/80s)

Is it time the irish went home. all they've done is taken their wages and spent them at home. they've contributed nothing to the british economy. And they are robbing the social welfare scheme. there are a few working with me here in manchester part time and they say that they won't leave now that the roads are built as they can work a few hours here and then draw the dole. I don't mean to offend anyone with this thread. has the problem not been that britain was too relaxed without migration laws.

The Irish went to Britain/ the US/ Australia & all over the world, & they did exactly the same as the Poles are doing here in Ireland now, so who are we to complain or preach to them?

O'Morris

It's wrong to blame the immigrants for the problems in the economy. At the same time though we need to be honest about the difficulties that having an open borders immigration policy is creating now that we're seeing so many job losses. We're in the middle of a recession and we simply don't have the means to create enough jobs for our own unemployed and for the newcomers to fill. The more people that enter the country looking for jobs, the greater the competition will be for those jobs and the more difficult it will be for us to tackle the problem of unemployment.

It's very likely that more people will leave the country this year than will enter it but it's also very probable that we'll see more people enter the country this year than the economy can support. Even if there's a net outflow of 50,000 people (many of whom will be Irish) we'll still probably see fewer jobs being created than there will be people to fill them. Our government needs to take action to reduce the number of people entering the country and that must include placing restrictions on the east Europeans. If they're serious about getting the Lisbon treaty ratified then they need to do something to address people's concerns about immigration. Immigration has been far too high over the last few years and most of us would rather not see it continue at this level.

partyguinness

People wanting Polish or eastern europeans to return home is incredible..I bet you these people are from the exact same communities that have cousins and friends working illegally in the USA for years...and hilariously our Governent is urging the US to legalise illegal Irish workers...

Pot..kettle...black...:rolleyes:

Anyone who thinks emigrants are to blame for current economic woes is living in so much ignorance of so many issues that there is no point in starting...

flipovic

'return' home? they are home. the continent of europe is their home as much as it is irish people home.

polish in this country is great. hopefully many stay and some irish switch to poland. this is how europe will become more closer to each other.

The Corinthian

O'Morris wrote: »

Even if there's a net outflow of 50,000 people (many of whom will be Irish) we'll still probably see fewer jobs being created than there will be people to fill them.

Logical fallacy. If you block immigration from the EU, then the same will be done to our emigrants. That is a guaranteed scenario.

As such, the same number of non-Irish will still leave Ireland and the Irish will be unable to. The only way that this will profit us is if EU immigration into Ireland is greater than Irish emigration - which certainly does not appear to be the case as Ireland is presently a place to leave, not go to - unless you're from a developing nation, which does not apply to this discussion as they are not in the EU.

Of course you could also intend to deport all non-Irish citizens, in which case I hope you have jobs lined up for all us paddy's that are deported back to Ireland when you do that.

CiaranC

O'Morris wrote: »

Immigration has been far too high over the last few years and most of us would rather not see it continue at this level.

Funny, I dont remember appointing you to speak for me.

Immigration has not been far too high over the last few years. And it wont continue at this level. Its called free market economics. Maybe you should look it up.