Is it time the polish went home

nortal

Just want to thank all you paddies for the job for life just need to play the race card. Bend over and take it like a good european paddy, when you have fellow country men so willing to fight on my behalf yet will not do anything for their own country men.

Pathetic race really oh sorry is that not PC enough for you paddy

Mr.Micro

flipovic wrote: »

'return' home? they are home. the continent of europe is their home as much as it is irish people home.

polish in this country is great. hopefully many stay and some irish switch to poland. this is how europe will become more closer to each other.

Absolutely right. The minority of bigots here in Ireland will need to see that as a country we need the EU more than ever.

The Corinthian

nortal wrote: »

Bend over and take it like a good european paddy, when you have fellow country men so willing to fight on my behalf yet will not do anything for their own country men.

If you are anything to go by, I think the Oirish gene pool needs a good dose of disinfectant.

Is it true, nortal, that you are into marathons so you can shower with the men afterwords?

O'Morris

The Corinthian wrote:

Logical fallacy.

You throw around the word logic a lot but I'm not if you understand what is meant by the term. Logic is about deriving valid conclusions from two or more premises. Would you mind restating my premises and the conclusion I've drawn from them?

The Corinthian wrote:

If you block immigration from the EU

I'm not saying that we should block immigration from the EU. I think we should do what most other European countries did at the time of EU enlargement and temporarily restrict access to people from the eastern European countries. As we're in the middle of a recession I don't think we have enough jobs for them to fill and I think it would help us to reduce unemployment if we eased the competition for the available jobs.

The Corinthian wrote:

then the same will be done to our emigrants. That is a guaranteed scenario.

We can afford to risk retaliation from the east Europeans as their wage rates are much lower than ours. Irish workers are not as likely to want to move to their countries as they are to other EU countries.

CiaranC wrote:

Immigration has not been far too high over the last few years.

I'm fairly sure most Irish people would disagree with you. According to the most recent poll (see here), 66% of the Irish population want to see a tighter immigration policy.

CiaranC wrote:

And it wont continue at this level.

It probably won't but I'm not sure if we should just sit back and wait to see how things turn out.

Mr.Micro

Now Irish people bend over and take it because you were too PC to stand up for yourselves in your own country, and stand up for your fellow country men

An exaggeration somewhat IMO. We are part of the EU now and all that goes with it. We need to ditch the narrowmindedness and embrace our European partners.

nortal

The Corinthian wrote: »

If you are anything to go by, I think the Oirish gene pool needs a good dose of disinfectant.

Is it true, nortal, that you are into marathons so you can shower with the men afterwords?

Firstly if you read my previous posts which you seem too you will see I am not Irish, Also as a moderator, you shouldn’t be showing your anti gay views on this form, not very PC is it?

don't practice what you preach, what I speak is the truth if you can’t deal with tough.

The Corinthian

O'Morris wrote: »

You throw around the word logic a lot but I'm not if you understand what is meant by the term. Logic is about deriving valid conclusions from two or more premises. Would you mind restating my premises and the conclusion I've drawn from them?

Please spare the attempt to belittle as an alternative to a cogent rebuttal. You claimed:

Even if there's a net outflow of 50,000 people (many of whom will be Irish) we'll still probably see fewer jobs being created than there will be people to fill them. Our government needs to take action to reduce the number of people entering the country and that must include placing restrictions on the east Europeans.

To which I pointed out that if you place restrictions there are consequences and when one considers Irish emigrants, then we lose out.

I'm not saying that we should block immigration from the EU. I think we should do what most other European countries did at the time of EU enlargement and temporarily restrict access to people from the eastern European countries. As we're in the middle of a recession I don't think we have enough jobs for them to fill and I think it would help us to reduce unemployment if we eased the competition for the available jobs.

To which I responded that the consequences would, most likely, mathematically leave us worse off.

We can afford to risk retaliation from the east Europeans as their wage rates are much lower than ours. Irish workers are not as likely to want to move to their countries as they are to other EU countries.

Except that we cannot pick and choose which EU countries we like and which ones we don't. If we wanted to do that we could have when they joined (for a limited time only), but we chose not to. Now, we can't without consequences from the EU as a whole - the same choice is being faced in the Schengen zone as some countries (e.g. Switzerland) are now talking about reneging on their earlier pledge of lifting restrictions on the accession countries and have been told that if they do then the whole agreement is out the window.

nortal wrote: »

Firstly if you read my previous posts which you seem too you will see I am not Irish

I believe that you're Irish.

Also as a moderator, you shouldn’t be showing your anti gay views on this form, not very PC is it?

I made no anti-gay remark. Anti-you, perhaps, but certainly not ant-gay.

don't practice what you preach, what I speak is the truth if you can’t deal with tough.

Just because it's what you believe does not make it 'the truth'. Had you considered the possibility that you're just speaking crap?

Kev_ps3

Yes they should go home. The jobs arnt there for them and the ones that are left should be for the native population who need them now there is a recession.

Fratton Fred

The landlord of my old local, as a joke, would sing "We've had your money now **** off home" at the end of an evening. why does this thread remind me of that?:rolleyes:

O'Morris

The Corinthian wrote:

Please spare the attempt to belittle as an alternative to a cogent rebuttal. You claimed:

But if you're going to accuse me of making a logical fallacy you should be prepared to point out where I went wrong in my logic. To do that you need to restate my premises and the invalid conclusion I've drawn from those premises.

The Corinthian wrote:

To which I pointed out that if you place restrictions there are consequences and when one considers Irish emigrants, then we lose out.

What do you mean "when we consider Irish emigrants"? How will restricting access to eastern Europeans affect Irish emigrants in other countries. I'm not suggesting that we should kick out the immigrants in this country, just that we restrict the number of people coming in. Would you expect the British to kick out the Irish emigrants in Britain in response to our decision to restrict access to the east Europeans?

The Corinthian wrote:

To which I responded that the consequences would, most likely, mathematically leave us worse off.

I don't think they would leave us worse off. If we managed to get away with placing restrictions on the east Europeans then the worst we would have to fear would be retaliatory restrictions from those same countries. We could afford to live with those restrictions as the average wage in eastern Europe is much lower than it is here and so Irish workers are not likely to lose out from not being able to emigrate to those countries. The east Europeans benefit far more from having unrestricted access to our labour market than we benefit from having access to theirs.

The Corinthian wrote:

Except that we cannot pick and choose which EU countries we like and which ones we don't.

We are already picking and choosing. We have restrictions on the Bulgarians and the Romanians that we don't have on other European countries. I just want to see us extend those restrictions on the other eastern European countries.

The Corinthian wrote:

If we wanted to do that we could have when they joined (for a limited time only), but we chose not to. Now, we can't without consequences from the EU as a whole - the same choice is being faced in the Schengen zone as some countries (e.g. Switzerland) are now talking about reneging on their earlier pledge of lifting restrictions on the accession countries and have been told that if they do then the whole agreement is out the window.

I remember reading an article in the Sunday Business Post where the EU minister Dick Roche claimed at the time of the Nice treaty referendum a few years ago that if there was a massive increase in immigration following EU enlargement that there are mechanisms under existing EU law to allow us to approach the EU commission and ask for a temporary suspension of the unrestricted access.

The Corinthian

O'Morris wrote: »

But if you're going to accuse me of making a logical fallacy you should be prepared to point out where I went wrong in my logic. To do that you need to restate my premises and the invalid conclusion I've drawn from those premises.

I did, even in my original post - that's what the quote button is for.

What do you mean "when we consider Irish emigrants"? How will restricting access to eastern Europeans affect Irish emigrants in other countries.

I think you would be very foolish to believe that there would not be any very real diplomatic consequences to going back on an agreement with the other EU states. Even if it does not affect states such as Germany, France and Italy directly, they will respond (most likely in kind), as they have already threatened to do in the case of non-EU Schengen nations threatening to do the same.

I'm not suggesting that we should kick out the immigrants in this country, just that we restrict the number of people coming in. Would you expect the British to kick out the Irish emigrants in Britain in response to our decision to restrict access to the east Europeans?

If we don't kick out immigrants, then you really don't gain much from your plan. Ireland is not an attractive country economically at present - for both Irish and non - and there is now more (Irish and other EU) leaving than arriving. Place a restriction on EU citizens and the EU (not just those countries) WILL react in kind. Thus you have restrictions on EU immigration into Ireland and Irish immigration into the rest of the EU.

This would be fine if we were in a boom, but we're not and people want to leave - even the Irish.

I don't think they would leave us worse off. If we managed to get away with placing restrictions on the east Europeans then the worst we would have to fear would be retaliatory restrictions from those same countries. We could afford to live with those restrictions as the average wage in eastern Europe is much lower than it is here and so Irish workers are not likely to lose out from not being able to emigrate to those countries. The east Europeans benefit far more from having unrestricted access to our labour market than we benefit from having access to theirs.

Which assumes that the EU as a whole would not react against our move. Very foolish assumption.

We are already picking and choosing. We have restrictions on the Bulgarians and the Romanians that we don't have on other European countries. I just want to see us extend those restrictions on the other eastern European countries.

Could you elaborate with sources please?

I remember reading an article in the Sunday Business Post where the EU minister Dick Roche claimed at the time of the Nice treaty referendum a few years ago that if there was a massive increase in immigration following EU enlargement that there are mechanisms under existing EU law to allow us to approach the EU commission and ask for a temporary suspension of the unrestricted access.

If this is the case, then no problem - assuming of course it solves anything.

The reality is that people are leaving Ireland. Restrictions are frankly a moot point, and likely only to create additional ill will against us as we become viewed as a bunch of moochers who were happy to be European when we got lots of money and now that it's not so rosy we want to do our own thing.

And, TBH, they'd probably be right.

Kintarō Hattori

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Yes they should go home. The jobs arnt there for them and the ones that are left should be for the native population who need them now there is a recession.

Thankfully you don't make any of the important decisions.

LordSutch

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Yes they should go home. The jobs arnt there for them and the ones that are left should be for the native population who need them now there is a recession.

After the above :rolleyes: I am really curious to know what your perspective is on Post#176

Kev_ps3

Camelot wrote: »

After the above :rolleyes: I am really curious to know what your perspective is on Post#176

I dont believe in mass immigration by any people, polish or Irish. So that English guy was right to complain about the Irish flooding into England when they could have tryed to improve their own country.

partyguinness

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I dont believe in mass immigration by any people, polish or Irish. So that English guy was right to complain about the Irish flooding into England when they could have tryed to improve their own country.

Yeah thats right...thousands of Irish people left Ireland because they cldnt be arsed staying around and they wld much prefer to improve England/Australia etc

Thats hilarious...are you reading the Ladybird book on emigration??

K-9

nortal wrote: »

Yes that is absolutely correct, Ireland is not a racist country, but the op should be “allowed” to expressed their view without the racist card being thrown at them, otherwise Irish people will feel powerless in their own country.

Yep, still he is racist! :cool:

nortal wrote:

I am beginning to think Irish people will take any thing thrown at them, they allow immigration that took France 30 years to get to in about 3 years here, trained them to do a job, and then the company moves to the country where the employees are from for half the cost,

Where did I see that happen before in the 70/80/90's. Was it Ireland?

O'Morris wrote: »

It's wrong to blame the immigrants for the problems in the economy. At the same time though we need to be honest about the difficulties that having an open borders immigration policy is creating now that we're seeing so many job losses. We're in the middle of a recession and we simply don't have the means to create enough jobs for our own unemployed and for the newcomers to fill. The more people that enter the country looking for jobs, the greater the competition will be for those jobs and the more difficult it will be for us to tackle the problem of unemployment.

So, when you said 20,000 leaving the country would be a good thing, that isn't really what you meant!

20,000 and more are leaving, but now, that isn't good enough!

O'Morris wrote: »

I'm not saying that we should block immigration from the EU. I think we should do what most other European countries did at the time of EU enlargement and temporarily restrict access to people from the eastern European countries. As we're in the middle of a recession I don't think we have enough jobs for them to fill and I think it would help us to reduce unemployment if we eased the competition for the available jobs.

Again, you posted earlier 20,000 leaving would be a good thing. Now it isn't enough!

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I dont believe in mass immigration by any people, polish or Irish. So that English guy was right to complain about the Irish flooding into England when they could have tryed to improve their own country.

Indeed they should have. Same with the Famine ships too.

_feedback_

I'm not going to even comment on the OP, or some of the other ridiculous posts... but glad to see so many sensible responses! Good to see the majority aren't so narrow minded.

WooPeeA

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Yes they should go home. The jobs arnt there for them and the ones that are left should be for the native population who need them now there is a recession.

There will be no jobs when they leave at all as hundreds of hotels, shops and factories will bankrupt or leave Ireland.

axer

Maybe these irish xenophobes should start with the jews (usually an easy target) and then move onto poles afterwards.


...and people still call germans nazis :rolleyes:

jmayo

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Yes they should go home. The jobs arnt there for them and the ones that are left should be for the native population who need them now there is a recession.

Ah yes Ireland for the Irish.
"Ireland of the many welcomes" maybe should have disclaimer stating you are welcome provided you bring us loads of money, otherwise f*** off
:rolleyes:

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I dont believe in mass immigration by any people, polish or Irish. So that English guy was right to complain about the Irish flooding into England when they could have tryed to improve their own country.

Are you trying to say that all those that had to emmigrate during 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s were leaving because they couldn't be bothered improving their own country.

This argument really does make me believe in something I used to hear my father say years ago.
The smart ones left, only the ones lucky by birth and the eejits were left in the country.

ejmaztec

WooPeeA wrote: »

There will be no jobs when they leave at all as hundreds of hotels, shops and factories will bankrupt or leave Ireland.

Especially the hotels, because tourists are no longer prepared to come here and pay the excessive charges. Even the tourists are heading East!

Fratton Fred

Lady Lainy wrote: »

In a perfect world, there should be protection for "failing" countries within the EU. In my eyes Ireland is failing. We were flurishing for years, but now we are on a steep slippery slope. In a perfect world there would be a halt on EU migration to ireland. We can no longer support our selves, how are we supposed to support other countries.

In a perfect world, yes. i see two problems there though. Firstly, the EU has already bailed Ireland out and created the Celtic Tiger, how many times are they supposed to bail out the same country. Secondly, who in the EU has any money at the moment. the biggest economies, Germany, France and Britain are all skint and have enough on their plates at the moment with their own economies.

The Corinthian

axer wrote: »

Maybe these irish xenophobes should start with the jews (usually an easy target) and then move onto poles afterwards.

A bit exaggerated, TBH. What you are getting here is largely not xenophobia (with the exception of some posters like O'Morris who have proposed racial purity arguments in other threads), but a reflex reaction to the present economic climate. Of course, reflex reactions are not always the best ones.

The problem with this thread, and many others like it is that the logic imployed is superficial. That is, certainly with a reduced number of jobs it makes sense to decrease those seeking them, however what is the oportunity cost of such an action?

Fewer EU immigrants are moving to Ireland to find jobs. Those already here are leaving. Overall we have a net exodus. Thus restrictions will have a limited effect.

And if they vanish, this does not mean that there will be jobs for all those who remain. Quite a bit of the economy serviced these immigrants; most notably the rental market. Indeed, if you were foolish enough to buy an investment apartment in the last two years hoping that the rent would cover or heavily offset the mortgage, welcome to a World of Pain.

Another problem with simple solutions to complex problems is that they distract us from actually dealing with the real issues or more efficient solutions.

And finally there is the diplomatic and political cost. If we want to do our own thing, we need to remember that we'll be on our own if things get worse and last time we tried that De Valeran self-sufficiency thing, it really didn't work out all that well.

In short, my take on it is that the benefits of such restrictions are dubious and limited, while the consequences are likely far greater. So who cares if it's PC or not - the point is it won't work and will probably make things worse for us. Economics is not an exact science; think of an economy as a donkey - slap it's rump and it may move forward as intended, but if you're wrong it may also buck and kick you in the face.

So I would not go so far that it is xenophobia or racism in most cases; just dumb, irrational and, generally, ill-educated fear. People just need to stop and think rather than look for quick solutions.

axer

The Corinthian wrote: »

A bit exaggerated, TBH. What you are getting here is largely not xenophobia (with the exception of some posters like O'Morris who have proposed racial purity arguments in other threads), but a reflex reaction to the present economic climate. Of course, reflex reactions are not always the best ones.

My point was not about racial purity but more that when things go bad people want someone (or some group) to blame since they will not want to blame themselves which is the reason that the Nazi party got away with the holocost. Recessions tend to bring about this type of thinking.

K-9

The Corinthian wrote: »

Indeed, if you were foolish enough to buy an investment apartment in the last two years hoping that the rent would cover or heavily offset the mortgage, welcome to a World of Pain.

Interest rates are coming down. Some properties can now finance the mortgage with rents.

Though I take your point on over supply and Net Emigration is going to make that worse.

The Corinthian

axer wrote: »

My point was not about racial purity but more that when things go bad people want someone (or some group) to blame since they will not want to blame themselves which is the reason that the Nazi party got away with the holocost. Recessions tend to bring about this type of thinking.

And my response is that such people are not really xenophobic. It's just a reflex, self-defence mechanism. Happens all the time, like a call to make the ban on handguns tougher after a gangland shooting - as if that will actually make a difference.

From that to the holocaust is a bit of a stretch though.

The Corinthian

Seanies32 wrote: »

Interest rates are coming down. Some properties can now finance the mortgage with rents.

Which is a fair point and simply goes to underline that the situation is far more complex and that simplistic solutions to complex problems are a bad idea.

O'Morris

The Corinthian wrote:

with the exception of some posters like O'Morris who have proposed racial purity arguments in other threads

I've never proposed racial purity in any other thread.

P. Breathnach

The Corinthian wrote: »

From that to the holocaust is a bit of a stretch though.

"A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step"

axer

The Corinthian wrote: »

And my response is that such people are not really xenophobic. It's just a reflex, self-defence mechanism. Happens all the time, like a call to make the ban on handguns tougher after a gangland shooting - as if that will actually make a difference.

From that to the holocaust is a bit of a stretch though.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, not that it would happen here (we are too disorganised) but for the german people it was not about racial purity but about blaming a group for their economic problems - it was the same mindset and when someone actually did something practical (i.e. moving jews to gettos), those in that mindset didn't act because while they didn't condon what was happening that mindset stopped many acting against it at the begining before it was actually to late to do anything. Anyway this could easily turn into a debate about the war which is pointless.