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Atheistic Beliefs?

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    #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Húrin wrote: »
    The Greek religion made no claims to universality. It was ethnocentric. Also, it has been proven that that Zeus does not live on Mount Olympus!

    Damn, there goes my whole religious system.


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    #63
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    sukikettle wrote: »
    Dades you don't know me any more than I know you...and being a Christian is not something for you to spit so much venom at. Don't forget you'll be wrong and I'll be right one day

    This kind of rhetoric does not help.
    Dades wrote: »
    As to why so many believe, well, isn't it comforting?
    Marx's argument works both ways. Depending on who you are and what are your circumstances, atheism is also comforting.

    Theism (generally speaking, not Christianity in particular) has the uncomfortable aspect of a God who may not be happy with your moral conduct on earth, and will express that dissatisfaction after your physical death.

    Atheism's comfort comes from the removal of this possibility, replacing it with the notion that since God doesn't exist, everything is permissible. This is why I think so many wealthy people are atheists. It's comforting.


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    #64
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    Húrin wrote: »

    Atheism's comfort comes from the removal of this possibility, replacing it with the notion that since God doesn't exist, everything is permissible. This is why I think so many wealthy people are atheists. It's comforting.

    I don't think there are very many atheists who would think everything is permissible. What's the rationale behind that statement? You'll have to try and illustrate that for me I'm afraid.


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    #65
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    studiorat wrote: »
    Either way I think as long as you are true to what you believe and to yourself you are doing the right thing.
    (disclaimer: the above obviously does not condone rape, murder, genocide etc)

    That's an issue for those who hold moral relavitism as a viewpoint though. If you are saying that these things are wrong surely you are saying that these things are universally wrong, and that there is a universal morality system binding on these people?


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    #66
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Húrin wrote: »
    Atheism's comfort comes from the removal of this possibility, replacing it with the notion that since God doesn't exist, everything is permissible.
    Nonsense. It's religious people who believe that everything is permissible, since they allow the god that they invent to do anything and to command anything he wants. Total permissability -- no limits at all.

    For example, the are plenty of posters in the Other Forum who think it's a good thing that god or his earthly henchmen murder lots of people. I can't think of any similarly homicidally-inclined atheists here.


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    #67
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Jakkass wrote: »
    That's an issue for those who hold moral relavitism as a viewpoint though
    As I mentioned last friday and again just now, it's religious people who hold to moral relativism -- the act of defining their own ethical code, by the circuitous route of choosing to accept unconditionally the beliefs that they acquire by interpreting the text of their own holybook.

    Secularists tend to decide these things as a group, and come to decisions about what what society should be through discussion and debate and not by producing some unchangeable rule and justifying it by, in effect, saying, "That's true for ever and ever because the belief system that I have created for myself says it's true".


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    #68
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Húrin wrote: »
    The Greek religion made no claims to universality. It was ethnocentric. Also, it has been proven that that Zeus does not live on Mount Olympus!

    Proved? How has this been proved?


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    #69
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    studiorat wrote: »
    I don't think there are very many atheists who would think everything is permissible. What's the rationale behind that statement? You'll have to try and illustrate that for me I'm afraid.
    Objective morality depends on God for its existence. Without God nothing is objectively wrong.
    robindch wrote: »
    Nonsense. It's religious people who believe that everything is permissible, since they allow the god that they invent to do anything and to command anything he wants. Total permissability -- no limits at all.
    Where are the examples of such wishful thinking theology? Other than the idea of a "life force". No, most religions describe a moral law that is "hard as nails".

    The other flaw in your argument is that it presumes that there is no God, and hence has that annoying circular aspect.
    For example, the are plenty of posters in the Other Forum who think it's a good thing that god or his earthly henchmen murder lots of people. I can't think of any similarly homicidally-inclined atheists here.
    Perhaps the atheists who define morality as actions which service social advantage would come into this?


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    #70
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    pH wrote: »
    Proved? How has this been proved?
    Because the hypothesis that the Gods live on the top of Mt Olympus in physical form has been disproven. There is nothing unusual at the top of that mountain.


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    #71
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Húrin wrote: »
    Because the hypothesis that the Gods live on the top of Mt Olympus in physical form has been disproven. There is nothing unusual at the top of that mountain.

    I'm nominating this in the "Best Post by a theist .... EVAR!" category


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    #72
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    robindch wrote: »
    As I mentioned last friday and again just now, it's religious people who hold to moral relativism -- the act of defining their own ethical code, by the circuitous route of choosing to accept unconditionally the beliefs that they acquire by interpreting the text of their own holybook.

    I'd disagree with this. The Apostles and Jesus are rather clear on what we are to follow as Christians.

    Namely:
    1) The Moral Torah, 2) Gospels, 3) Apostolic Writings.

    Most of 2 and 3 are consistent with 1.

    So in Christianity we can see that there is a universal morality system. Whereas this fallacy or what I would perceive of a fallacy is when atheists are all okay to be relative, but when it comes to issues such as rape, genocide, and other things, they are quick to accept a universal morality system that is binding to each and all of us. Why isn't that acceptable for them? If morality is all relative that is.


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    #73
    MackDeToaster
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭MackDeToaster


    Húrin wrote: »
    Objective morality depends on God for its existence. Without God nothing is objectively wrong.

    Did you see my post on the previous page ?


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    #74
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Sorry to nitpick about you nitpicking :)
    But buddhism is agnostic on the subject, added to which the supernatural is very present in its beliefs and goals. A quick google on brahma and sakka will show the idea of gods is very present in eastern Buddhism, though the gods are note the same as the form given by Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

    I said largely for a reason. If you ask a Buddist if he or she believes in a devine interventionist creator god I'm sure a large majority would say no. Whether they are agnostic or not is a different question entirely.


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    #75
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    eoin5 wrote: »
    I said largely for a reason. If you ask a Buddist if he or she believes in a devine interventionist creator god I'm sure a large majority would say no. Whether they are agnostic or not is a different question entirely.
    But the question is do they believe in gods, which quite a number of Buddhists do, which hardly makes it an atheist religion.


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    #76
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Dades wrote: »
    I wouldn't be so quick to include the majority of "scholars/scientists/philosophers" of today as believers.

    As to why so many believe, well, isn't it comforting?

    Whether its 90, 60 or 30% of scholars/scientists/philosophers (i havent done a survey...) is largely irrelevant - the point is that, if it were completely illogical (as many vocal atheists claim) to believe in a higher power, it would be very unusual for such a substantial number of the populations great minds to do so.

    Its comforting to believe lots of fanciful things but the vast majority of people dont ......


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    #77
    cocoa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭cocoa


    drkpower wrote: »
    Whether its 90, 60 or 30% of scholars/scientists/philosophers (i havent done a survey...) is largely irrelevant - the point is that, if it were completely illogical (as many vocal atheists claim) to believe in a higher power, it would be very unusual for such a substantial number of the populations great minds to do so.

    Its comforting to believe lots of fanciful things but the vast majority of people dont ......

    Fact, it is usual, and normal for the majority of people to believe certain things. To say that this has any bearing on the things being correct or not doesn't really make sense. The human mind is quite incredible, and capable of being very insightful in certain areas while being downright blind in others.

    It's been said that insanity is statistical, logic and accuracy are not. Just because everyone's thinking it doesn't mean it's true.


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    #78
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    cocoa wrote: »
    Fact, it is usual, and normal for the majority of people to believe certain things. To say that this has any bearing on the things being correct or not doesn't really make sense. The human mind is quite incredibly, and capable of being very insightful in certain areas while being downright blind in others.

    It's been said that insanity is statistical, logic and accuracy are not. Just because everyone's thinking it doesn't mean it's true.

    Well obviously.......

    But my point is that the fact that such a majority "believe" cannot be dismissed - it is obviously not proof that what they believe is true, but it does provide, in my view, support for the "God exists" argument. The alternative is that the majority of the world's population (and not just the stupid ones..) have been deluding themselves - which seems incredible......


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    #79
    cocoa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭cocoa


    drkpower wrote: »
    Well obviously.......

    But my point is that the fact that such a majority "believe" cannot be dismissed - it is obviously not proof that what they believe is true, but it does provide, in my view, support for the "God exists" argument. The alternative is that the majority of the world's population (and not just the stupid ones..) have been deluding themselves - which seems incredible......

    deluding themselves is far too strong. Personally, I think it's almost like it's in our DNA. Believing in a greater being is a useful tool for sentient lifeforms, for maintaining order and fear, for controlling each other. I think the fact that many people believe shows it's an inherent part of human nature, not that it might be true.


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    #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    drkpower wrote: »
    Well obviously.......

    But my point is that the fact that such a majority "believe" cannot be dismissed - it is obviously not proof that what they believe is true, but it does provide, in my view, support for the "God exists" argument. The alternative is that the majority of the world's population (and not just the stupid ones..) have been deluding themselves - which seems incredible......

    That the majority of great minds such as scientists/philosophers are religious? No, I don't think they are.

    And as for the public, during the dark ages a large proportion of people believed in witches, does that add any credence to witches actually being real? Just because a lot of people belief in something, doesn't make it true.


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    #81
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    cocoa wrote: »
    deluding themselves is far too strong. Personally, I think it's almost like it's in our DNA. Believing in a greater being is a useful tool for sentient lifeforms, for maintaining order and fear, for controlling each other. I think the fact that many people believe shows it's an inherent part of human nature, not that it might be true.

    interesting angle.... so does that mean that those who do not believe have a genetic mutation.....! - im suprised the churches havent tried to put that one out!!


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    #82
    MackDeToaster
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭MackDeToaster


    cocoa wrote: »
    deluding themselves is far too strong. Personally, I think it's almost like it's in our DNA. Believing in a greater being is a useful tool for sentient lifeforms, for maintaining order and fear, for controlling each other. I think the fact that many people believe shows it's an inherent part of human nature, not that it might be true.

    You might find some of these articles interesting...

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?keyword=religion


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    #83
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    drkpower wrote: »
    Well obviously.......

    But my point is that the fact that such a majority "believe" cannot be dismissed - it is obviously not proof that what they believe is true, but it does provide, in my view, support for the "God exists" argument. The alternative is that the majority of the world's population (and not just the stupid ones..) have been deluding themselves - which seems incredible......

    So then what about (non religious) superstitions? You think it incredible that the majority of the world's population have been delusional about lucky omens, rabbits feet, broken mirrors, spilt salt and ladders? Or are you suggesting that all these need to be taken seriously too?


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    #84
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    -JammyDodger- wrote: »
    That the majority of great minds such as scientists/philosophers are religious? No, I don't think they are.

    And as for the public, during the dark ages a large proportion of people believed in witches, does that add any credence to witches actually being real? Just because a lot of people belief in something, doesn't make it true.

    not religous necessarily, but believe in a higher power - as i said, i havent done a survey, but there would be a substantial minority or slim majority i would guess

    obviously, it doesnt make it true, but, as i have said, it cannot be lightly dismissed which tends to be what vocal atheists do


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    #85
    MackDeToaster
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭MackDeToaster


    drkpower wrote: »
    interesting angle.... so does that mean that those who do not believe have a genetic mutation.....! - im suprised the churches havent tried to put that one out!!

    No. We evolved as a social pack animal. We search for common grounds upon which to interact and support each other, some people join book clubs, some people go to church, others post on boards, some play team sports, most do multiples of these.


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    #86
    cocoa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭cocoa


    drkpower wrote: »
    interesting angle.... so does that mean that those who do not believe have a genetic mutation.....! - im suprised the churches havent tried to put that one out!!

    read what I said. I said it was like DNA. I don't want to get into a nature V nurture argument here but essentially it's true that religion has occured on it's own, without outside stimulus or 'nurture'. So we can conclude that it is part of our nature, and, if you really wanted to you could stipulate that it is somewhere in DNA but really that's kind of pointless.

    No two people have the same DNA, so everyone is a mutant compared to everyone else, I don't think talking about a 'genetic mutation' and making it sound all science fiction is very worthwhile...


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    #87
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    pH wrote: »
    So then what about (non religious) superstitions? You think it incredible that the majority of the world's population have been delusional about lucky omens, rabbits feet, broken mirrors, spilt salt and ladders? Or are you suggesting that all these need to be taken seriously too?

    i think you are stretching a bit......!

    People dont ground their ethics/principles on a rabbits foot, constitutions of modern states are/were not written on the basis of walking under ladders and wars have not been fought over broken mirrors....

    I see the point u are making but i dont think it is a valid analogy


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    #88
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    cocoa wrote: »
    read what I said. I said it was like DNA. I don't want to get into a nature V nurture argument here but essentially it's true that religion has occured on it's own, without outside stimulus or 'nurture'. So we can conclude that it is part of our nature, and, if you really wanted to you could stipulate that it is somewhere in DNA but really that's kind of pointless.

    No two people have the same DNA, so everyone is a mutant compared to everyone else, I don't think talking about a 'genetic mutation' and making it sound all science fiction is very worthwhile...

    I was joking........


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    #89
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    drkpower wrote: »
    not religous necessarily, but believe in a higher power - as i said, i havent done a survey, but there would be a substantial minority or slim majority i would guess

    I'm slightly confused. Are you saying that a large proportion of scientific minds believe in a higher power? If you are, then I don't agree.

    Or, are you saying that a large proportion of scientific minds don't believe in a higher power? If you are, then I agree.


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    #90
    cocoa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭cocoa


    drkpower wrote: »
    i think you are stretching a bit......!

    People dont ground their ethics/principles on a rabbits foot, constitutions of modern states are/were not written on the basis of walking under ladders and wars have not been fought over broken mirrors....

    I see the point u are making but i dont think it is a valid analogy

    But it's not an analogy, it's exactly the same thing. I think you give people too much credit, to suggest that basing wars on things etc, might cause them to check their credentials any better.

    Also, decisions like wars etc. are made by a minority, thus it is based on the belief of a minority. So saying that wars were waged based on the belief of a minority doesn't really lend any strength to the argument.


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    #91
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    drkpower wrote: »
    Its comforting to believe lots of fanciful things but the vast majority of people dont ......
    But they do! People have an inherent need to believe in something bigger than themselves. They need a reason or a purpose. Or think they do at least.


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