Are Chelsea washed up under Scolari?

mike65

Discuss!

I reckon they are, watching some of this afternoons match was pretty damning evidence to add the the increasing mountian doubt that Chelsea fans must have. I have'nt read the match thread but I'm sure a few must think a league title challange is over bar the shouting.

Smegball

They need some youthful players tbh, teams getting on a bit. Also they need flair from the wings, Joe Cole has gone downhill big time since Mourinho has left, team doesn't have that air of invincibility either, teams are more confident against Chelsea these days.

They need to work on defending set pieces aswell, having no men on the posts at corners is unforgiveable imo.

The main question is will Roman cough up to get these players they obviously need! I doubt it myself.

OPENROAD

Of course not!!!!

Second place in the league at the moment only four points behind Liverpool who I feel will may start to wobble now, lets see where Chelsea are at come May not in January, I still believe even we still have a chance in the league.

ShooterSF

I think they're still a strong team and on their day could still beat anyone in the league however, I don't think they have near the depth they had 3 or 4 years ago and with Ballack, Deco and Drogba all the wrong side of 30 I don't think they have ready replacements and will need to splash out in the next few years.
Whether Abromhavic wants to pump another say 60-100m into the club will be a huge deciding factor then.

Headshot

they really miss Michael Essien

any top team would miss him tbh

Tom65

They looked like they just didn't care today. Even the stalwarts like John Terry and Frank Lampard didn't seem very interested. Ballack, Drogba and Deco looked like they couldn't care less.

I don't think Chelsea "problems" are down to tactics or quality, there just seems a complete lack of passion.

Smegball

{(-_-)}HeadShoT** wrote: »

they really miss Michael Essien

any top team would miss him tbh

Agreed, I rate Essien as one of the most complete midfielders tbh, top top player.

Galvasean

Wow, a bad patch and suddenly they are washed up? I doubt it. they look like there's a bit of internal trouble alright, but if they get that sorted and firing on full cylinders again soon they'll be right back in the mix.

Iang87

i think they are washed up and just ****e,

i'm a liverpool fan and sickened with the result i personally wanted it to be a draw but didnt think they'd roll over today like they did. the other guy is right with lack of passion cos if they cant get themselves up for united at old trafford then sack them all

~Rebel~

they could really do with 2 top notch wingers, and giving more game time to Kalou. They're entire strength is through the middle, Cole, Lampard, Ballack, Deco all attack through the same channels. They just end up with 4 players doing the job of 2 behind the front man and getting in each others way. Before the match today i thought this wouldn't matter too much Uniteds apparantly weakened midfield, but between Giggs and Fletchers performance, and that quartets underperformance, it ended up ruining them.

Ribery's comments recently about not being able to say he'd finish his contract with Bayern should be putting Chelsea on alert to throw in a bid. 2 players like Ribery and Luis Suarez could really change that team. That is, if the days of big transfers haven't gone.

JPA

The balance of the team is all wrong.

One proper winger (Malouda) in the squad and no pace from midfield.
Ballack has been a massive disappointment since joining but never gets called up on it. Him and Lampard are the exact same type of player and shouldn't be in the team together.

If they'd signed Robinho then they would be a much different proposition but now they are stagnant, lack ideas and passion.

Or this could a massive overreaction.

ShooterSF

Ballack had a good run in for the last 6 months of last season. Other than that he's been pretty ordinary. The thing is he wasn't signed to fill a space but to stop United or possibly others from signing him.

KevIRL

Teams are wrote off/hyped up far too easily after a few good/bad games (delete as appropriate) these days.

Chelsea have home games against Stoke and Middlesboro next, at the same time Liverpool face Everton and Wigan (away). Utd have Wigan at home, bolton/WBA away in the same time.

If Chelsea take the 6 points at home, then get a result at Liverpool they will considered to be right back in it.

It's too soon to make statements like they are washed up imo. Just like it was too soon after Liverpool beat Newcastle to say they were favs for the title, just like its too soon after todays results to say Uts have the title in the bag.

Dave!

Not at all

They're going through a bad patch and they're still 2nd in the league

United have also been a bit hit and miss so far

Remember at the start of the season when Chelsea were ripping new arseholes for every team they played? They were playing sublime football and looked unstoppable.

How quickly people's memories vanish!

JPA

They haven't ripped new arseholes for any good teams. (Except Villa:o)

LuckyLloyd

lol at this thread.

Dont be at yourself

I don't think it is the end of the road for this Chelsea team, though I do think Scolari's days are numbered.

There is no doubting the quality in the Chelsea squad. Their back five, their central midfield and their attack are all amongst the best in the world.

Their obvious weak areas are either side of midfield. As Scolari has pointed out, they simply don't have the players to play a 4-4-2. it doesn't make sense to drop a player of the ability of Lampard/Ballack/Essien/Deco to bring in the likes of Kalou or Malouda - who are solid, but not at the level of the former.

Their embarrassment of riches down the centre necessitates a narrower formation, and it's not something that suits Chelsea - certainly not as an attacking force. it leads to too much congestion in the middle, and Chelsea aren't geared for that. Lampard and Ballack are both too ponderous on the ball. Deco has shown what he can offer in such a system, but on too inconsistent a basis. In accommodating the attacking talents of those three, they are playing a system that doesn't particularly play to any of their individual strengths.

For me, it's clear Chelsea would be a transformed side with the addition of a top-class winger or two. It would give them an extra dimension in attack, as well as free up space for those in the centre. Drogba is the perfect target man for crosses, and a big-man/little-man partnership with the predatory Anelka could flourish.

As for Scolari... it's been another poor day at the office. After 4 games against the Big Four, he has managed only a single point - at home to Man Utd. He has relinquished the Stamford Bridge home record, and today he suffered a heavy defeat against his nearest rivals (in betting!). Add these to poor performances in the Champions League and it suggests to me that he doesn't have the tactical nous for these big-match encounters.

As Rafa would say, these kind of games are decided on details, yet Scolari seems to organise his team with the broadest of strokes. Would Chelsea under Mourinho (or Grant!) have conceded twice from a set-piece? Scolari's Chelsea are one-dimensional and their brand of football, while attractive, is eaten up by a well-drilled side like United. And when the wheels come off, Plan B tends to create more problems than it solves - resorting to unfamiliar systems and shunting players out of position.

mike65

So no-one here thinks Scolari is clueless then?

_blank_

mike65 wrote: »

So no-one here thinks Scolari is clueless then?

I do.

I think a manager who has won the World Cup is clueless.

Then again, i'm an idiot.

Dont be at yourself

Perhaps not clueless, but not suited to the unique trials of managing a team aiming for the Premiership.

dreamers75

Not his team, not even Grants team.

If allowed to buy in players he wanted and rid the dressing room of the little clique he could then be judged as a prem manager. Doutb that going to happen tbh.

Iang87

i think he's clueless, ya he's won a world cup with some of the greatest players every to play the game. a monkey with a mallet up his arse would have managed that team that won the world cup with brazil

Bubs101

Smegball wrote: »

. Also they need flair from the wings, Joe Cole has gone downhill big time since Mourinho has left,.

Fan's player of the year 2007/2008 Joe Cole?

LuckyLloyd

mike65 wrote: »

So no-one here thinks Scolari is clueless then?

Twice winner of the Copa Libertadores
One World Cup
European Championship Runners up and 3rd in the WC with Portugal

chips1234

Des wrote: »

I do.

I think a manager who has won the World Cup is clueless.

Then again, i'm an idiot.

in fairness me ma could of won the world cup with that brazil squad

all that said id never write off that chelsea squad anyone who does will regret it


from a united fan

chips1234

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Twice winner of the Copa Libertadores
One World Cup
European Championship Runners up and 3rd in the WC with Portugal

lloyd while i agree with your point i still think them accomplishments(sp?)are completely different to the prem league/champions league bar the WC obv but like i said in my last post that brazilian squad was class

eddiehead

Not washed up so to speak, but certainly nowhere near the level of recent seasons. Once Essien is back Scolari will just have to bite the bullet and drop some of the midfield superstars to play with a bit more balance, this coupled with one good young wide player and I think this squad will go a long way to achieving its potential.

Today was a disgrace by their standards, Id only love to know what Mourinho was saying in the stands.

LuckyLloyd

chips1234 wrote: »

lloyd while i agree with your point i still think them accomplishments(sp?)are completely different to the prem league/champions league bar the WC obv but like i said in my last post that brazilian squad was class

How can you be sure that he isn't cut out for the Premiership on the basis of 20 games?

Far too small a sample size to be making any conclusions imo. Thus making this thread a huge waste of everyone's time. But hey, all those who like a good kneejerk reaction can feel free to carry on at their leisure.

chips1234

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How can you be sure that he isn't cut out for the Premiership on the basis of 20 games?

Far too small a sample size to be making any conclusions imo. Thus making this thread a huge waste of everyone's time. But hey, all those who like a good kneejerk reaction can feel free to carry on at their leisure.

im not judgeing him on 20 games he obviously has a clue what he's doing but arent you assesing him on past success's which imo is the same as judgeing him on his first 20 games expecting him to do well ?

he is a good manager but imo i dont think he will get enough time at chelsea to do well!

Raskolnikov

What's happened to John Terry and Ricardo Carvalho? Under Mourinho, they were regarded as the best central defensive combination in the world. Terry does not have the aerial dominance that he once had and Carvalho seems to be getting caught out of position far too often. As far as I'm concerned, Ballack is finished. His engine is gone and he doesn't look remotely motivated any more. The biggest disappointment though has been Drogba. I know he's only recently back from injury, but he really needed to put in a performance today.

bUILDERtHEbOB

IMO their midfield does not have enough creativity, cleverness and movement to dominate teams with good defences using the style of play that Scolari wants to use, if that makes sense.

LuckyLloyd

chips1234 wrote: »

im not judgeing him on 20 games he obviously has a clue what he's doing but arent you assesing him on past success's which imo is the same as judgeing him on his first 20 games expecting him to do well ?

he is a good manager but imo i dont think he will get enough time at chelsea to do well!

The point is that there is little or nothing meaningful to be derived about his managerial suitability to the Premiership or chances of success at Chelsea in the long - term on the basis of this season so far. So you are still forced to look at his record (which is relatively exceptional) and conclude that he should do a good job.

Anything more is noise imo. If he gets sacked after one season without any chance to shape the squad then, meh - it ain't his fault.

ShooterSF

But even if he isnt sacked will he be handed the war chest he needs to rebuild /re-shape the team into "his" Chelsea. If not who can he sell to fill that chest?

chips1234

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The point is that there is little or nothing meaningful to be derived about his managerial suitability to the Premiership or chances of success at Chelsea in the long - term on the basis of this season so far. So you are still forced to look at his record (which is relatively exceptional) and conclude that he should do a good job.

Anything more is noise imo. If he gets sacked after one season without any chance to shape the squad then, meh - it ain't his fault.

i agree with you 100% but i think abramovich wants instant success and i dont no new manager to the premiership can guarentee that or achieve it imo

x in the city

Big Philly will be sacked before the season is out..

Grant was better

LuckyLloyd

chips1234 wrote: »

i agree with you 100% but i think abramovich wants instant success and i dont no new manager to the premiership can guarentee that or achieve it imo

I honestly don't think Ferguson could have switched to Liverpool or Chelsea back in July and "guaranteed" success either. The bar is high right now, and winning it all will take anyone time.

ShooterSF

It takes time and whole lotta money.
Ok Im gonna stop singing now

chips1234

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I honestly don't think Ferguson could have switched to Liverpool or Chelsea back in July and "guaranteed" success either. The bar is high right now, and winning it all will take anyone time.

does that not give fergie the advantage? given he's with united so long?

cmcsoft

They were shocking today but I don't think they are washed up by by stretch of the imagination. I think Chelsea are lacking natural width, it was very evident today. It didn't look like they had a plan B.

They have a very strong squad and I agree that Essien will have a huge influence between here and the end of the season. Big slip up today though

colly10

Tom65 wrote: »

They looked like they just didn't care today. Even the stalwarts like John Terry and Frank Lampard didn't seem very interested.

Agreed, I said before today that I felt Chelsea are finished. Before you slate me I agree they have alot of talent in the side (all over the pitch).
I think though that the big players have been running that side since mourinho left, none of them had the respect for Grant and the players got used to being in control while he was there, I don't think scolari has changed that.
The problem is that scolari can't crack the whip like ferguson has in the past because if he won't be given the money to splash to replace every player who won't tow the line.
The players look disinterested today because they're playing for themselves and have noone to fear.
Scolari should not be managing them anyway, he barely has a word of English, can you really see a guy like him commanding the respect of the dressing room? I mean can you see them all sitting round quietly as he attempts to explain whatever in his head in badly broken English?
You may all disagree, it's just my uneducated opinion on Chelsea

smuckers

I can handle losing but what I can't handle is the lack of chances that were created and some of the players attitudes, I hope Ballack doesn't get a new contract!

Its all too predictable at the moment and Scolari doesn't have the tactical nous of the premier league, they were training all week on set pieces, they obviously weren't training hard enough!

redout

Smegball wrote: »

They need some youthful players tbh, teams getting on a bit. Also they need flair from the wings, Joe Cole has gone downhill big time since Mourinho has left, team doesn't have that air of invincibility either, teams are more confident against Chelsea these days.

They need to work on defending set pieces aswell, having no men on the posts at corners is unforgiveable imo.

The main question is will Roman cough up to get these players they obviously need! I doubt it myself.

Mourinho was not a big fan of Joe if I remember correct.

JT and Fat Frank run a little exclusive clique. Jose was the boss of the clique. One of the lads. Drogba is a lesser member of that clique. Now If you ask me the best thing for Chelsea is to dump one of the lads probably fat frank considering Mr Chelsea dare not leave. Break up the clique and make a new signing or two and all will be well again in the land of Chelski.

Xavi6

The problem for Chelsea is that they are an aging side in the sense that they appear have very little coming through once this batch of players moves on within the next two or three years. They will effectively have to buy a whole new squad.

Yesterday's line up -

Cech - Aged 26
Bosingwa - 26
A. Cole - 28
Terry - 28
Carvalho - 30
Mikel - 21
Deco - 31
Ballack - 32
Lampard - 30
J. Cole - 27
Drogba - 30

Subs:

Cudicini - 35
Anelka - 29
Di Santo - 19
Belletti - 32
Kalou - 23
Ivanovic - 24
Ferreira - 29

Out of that lineup I can see Deco, Ballack, Drogba, Belletti, Ferreira, Cudicini and possibly Joe Cole gone by 2011. Who replaces them? Roman has tightened the belt and there are very few spring chickens in there in comparison to Liverpool, United and of course Arsenal.

The pressure is really on for this side to not only deliver a Premiership, but a Champions League for Abramovich so, while they aren't 'washed up', it will be a difficult next few years for them.

eagle eye

You will see a couple of youngsters coming through from their youth system, its the best set up in the league right now.

It was the first thing they set up when Abramovich came in with the money. The have a worldwide system having set up partnerships as United have done also, in the US and Asia.

I think the manager is the big problem. There does not seem to be any creativity in the team right now, and when you watch them play everybody seems to be getting in each others way in the middle of the pitch.

They certainly need some width but most of all they need a new coach. I just put something up in another thread and it had to do with Mourinho and the way he was treated which was terrible. I thought he was a brilliant manager and could possibly have challenged Ferguson long term as the most successful manager in English football.

Funnily I was just thinking after that post that it might happen yet, I have a feeling that unless Mark Hughes gets things together at Man City that he will be leaving and I'd imagine Jose would love the opportunity to come back and rule the Premier League again with money to burn.

Xavi6

eagle eye wrote: »

You will see a couple of youngsters coming through from their youth system, its the best set up in the league right now.

Better than City's? We may be crap in general but our youth system is the best in the country imo. Our performances in the FA Youth Cup over the past few years and the amount of graduates who have played first team football would back up the point.

eagle eye

Xavi6 wrote: »

Better than City's? We may be crap in general but our youth system is the best in the country imo. Our performances in the FA Youth Cup over the past few years and the amount of graduates who have played first team football would back up the point.

What I mean is that their system has improved immensely over the past few years and they now have some really promising youth players. Mourinho did a great interview in the Telegraph a while back and explained a few things about why he thought the England job is a tough one. He mentioned a bit about the youth set ups in England and he did a lot of work with the Chelsea youth system while he was there. They have a lot of young players out on loan now with lower league clubs to gain experience. So while their results at youth level might not rival those of Man City and other clubs, they cerainly have a lot of talent in the system.

Here is the article.

Xavi6

eagle eye wrote: »

What I mean is that their system has improved immensely over the past few years and they now have some really promising youth players. Mourinho did a great interview in the Telegraph a while back and explained a few things about why he thought the England job is a tough one. He mentioned a bit about the youth set ups in England and he did a lot of work with the Chelsea youth system while he was there. They have a lot of young players out on loan now with lower league clubs to gain experience. So while their results at youth level might not rival those of Man City and other clubs, they cerainly have a lot of talent in the system.

Here is the article.

That article is from a while back but as you say, they have made some steps in the right direction, particularly with regard to homegrown talent

However, The Guardian this week seem to think that the system is in fact a waste of time and money -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jan/11/chelsea-youth-team

Chelsea ditch expensive foreign kids

Chelsea have begun a clear-out of their underperforming youth ranks as the club attempt to refocus their academy recruitment efforts on young English talent. A large group of players caught in limbo between Luiz Felipe Scolari's senior squad and Chelsea's under-18 team have been made available for transfer or loan - with the club offering to subsidise their unusually high wages in some cases.

Having not played on loan to Portsmouth, Israel striker Ben Sahar has been moved to Dutch Eredivisie strugglers De Graafschap. Danish forward Morten Nielsen - whose father Benny was employed by the club as a scout - is close to joining Saint-Etienne on loan. Italian centre-back Vincenzo Camilleri may return to Reggina, while Portugal youth internationals Fábio Ferreira and Ricardo Fernandes have rejected transfers to Italy and Spain, despite Chelsea offering to pay off the remaining six months of their contracts in full. The futures of a number of English players on loan at lower-division clubs are also under consideration.

Signed before Frank Arnesen's multi-million-pound appointment as chief scout and director of youth development, Ferreira and Fernandes are at the low end of the wage scale at £85,000 a year. Many of Arnesen's recruits take home more than £150,000.

Embarrassingly, the Dane has spent much of his recent time attempting to move his lauded signings on. His failure to establish "the best youth development programme in the world" and produce a player a season for the first team, coupled with comments made about Roman Abramovich's straitened finances, have angered the owner and have led to Arnesen losing influence at Stamford Bridge.

Chelsea officials say the departures of certain youth players is a natural part of the academy assessment process, unconnected with efforts to economise. The club currently have 20 England youth internationals between the ages of 15 and 18, but are seeking to increase that number.

So some of them are out on loan as Chelsea are trying to get rid.

Davidth88

Recently I have been a little surprised the way Chelsea have leaked goals from set pieces.

Can anyone explain for example why there was no one guarding the far post on the corner goal yesterday

BTW , I thought the first corner ( the disallowed goal ) was just brilliant, if the ManU player had told the linesman what he was doing I am sure it would have stood .

Also, I have been disappointed at the lack of ball going into the opponents pen area , I am not a coach so I can't see what is wrong I just know something is.

I do suspect that the lack of width in the side may have something to do with it, on the defence I think Claude Makalele played a bigger part than perhaps we gave him credit for.

I listened to Phil's interview before the game yesterday and wondered how he gets on in the dressing room with that level of language.

Also , how much did Steve Clarke do ? We all know about Butch Wilkins coaching skill ( or lack of it ) so I wonder. Saying that WHU have hardly seen a change in fortune since Steve joined them ( although early days )

Boggles

Chelsea are only 2 points worse off than they were at this stage last year, writing them off at this moment in time is stupid in the extreme.

On Scolari, I was suspect of him when he signed for Chelsea, he has spent the best part of a decade in international football, I think there has to be an adjustment period for any manager making the change back to day to day management.

On yesterdays match, The central defensive partnership looked unfit, Cole could not deal with Park, Lampard does his best when feeding off scraps from the strikers, when your "main" striker is Drogba a player who has already left the club and Anelka who IMO doesn't care about the result as long as he comes out looking good, your in a world of trouble.

Mikel is hit and miss, Joe Cole plays good for about 4 weeks a season and we won't see Deco again until the clocks go forward.

I wouldn't completely judge Chelsea on yesterdays performance, because any team in my opinion can get a thumping at OT on any given Sunday.

No doubt thou, Chelsea have problems that need addressing, luckly for Chelsea fans there is time to address them and they are not as serious as many on here would make out.

Iang87

Boggles wrote: »

Chelsea are only 2 points worse off than they were at this stage last year, writing them off at this moment in time is stupid in the extreme.

On Scolari, I was suspect of him when he signed for Chelsea, he has spent the best part of a decade in international football, I think there has to be an adjustment period for any manager making the change back to day to day management.

On yesterdays match, The central defensive partnership looked unfit, Cole could not deal with Park, Lampard does his best when feeding off scraps from the strikers, when your "main" striker is Drogba a player who has already left the club and Anelka who IMO doesn't care about the result as long as he comes out looking good, your in a world of trouble.

Mikel is hit and miss, Joe Cole plays good for about 4 weeks a season and we won't see Deco again until the clocks go forward.

I wouldn't completely judge Chelsea on yesterdays performance, because any team in my opinion can get a thumping at OT on any given Sunday.

No doubt thou, Chelsea have problems that need addressing, luckly for Chelsea fans there is time to address them and they are not as serious as many on here would make out.

You're right they are only two points better off but there a shadow of that side, which makes them nobodys under the mourinho reign. its not about how well do they're doin its how bad they've been for months and recent results are proving they're bad. Gettin caught out at fulham and against southend. Mourinho would have demolished his sides for lettin two leads slip like that and he prob just would have lined up yesterdays starting 11 and shot them.

Xavi6

Davidth88 wrote: »

BTW , I thought the first corner ( the disallowed goal ) was just brilliant, if the ManU player had told the linesman what he was doing I am sure it would have stood .

Pfft, they robbed it off Roma.