What do you think about South Africa?

alanbutt

Hi guys from Margate,South Coast,South Africa,
As someone who makes a living from property in SA I have been dismayed by the reactions I get from various forums. SA seems to have attracted very negative views due to Crime,Aids,Corruption and a general attitude that it is going down the tubes. Living here you sometimes wonder if you are in the same country. As I write it is a typical African Summers day. I am alive and might get to see us whip the Aussies at cricket again at home. Plus the 2010 World Soccer Cuo is on the way.
I would love to hear your views, if you have any or is it a storm in a teacup?
Cheers
Alan Butterworth

eth0_

Jo'burg and Capetown are two of the most dangerous cities in the world. The statistics don't lie, i'm afraid.

Everyone knows there is a lot of corruption and major inequality there. I would maybe go to SA for a holiday (not in the cities though) but no way would I live there. I have friends and cousins from Jo'burg and Capetown and all of them would never go back.

AARRRGH

I work with a guy who grew up in South Africa and he won't even go back there on holiday as he says it's a horrendous place.

The_Conductor

My sis married an Afrikaner- they live in Joburg. She tells me if she sees a car behind her car as she is driving home- she keeps going and drives around the block until it is clear to drive up to the house. They have a Rhodesian Ridgeback as a guard dog (from all accounts the beast would lick any wouldbe criminal to death- but he looks fierce), and tall fences and security gates. I've heard all the jokes about driving through red lights, firearms and the personal touches to ensure your windows are smash and grab proof....... Its not funny. Would I like to live there- not a chance. Would I like to visit- sure- on holiday to escape the pitiful climate we have here. Could I see myself as a white person being happy to bring up my children there. Eh, no. Don't get me wrong- I have lived in Africa in the past, but I've been robbed, and beaten and don't even get me started on pickpockets. There are some areas- particularly down near the Cape- which look like heaven on earth- but there are no jobs to speak of there (but akin to everyone else- I'd love to retire there).

Of all the African countries- South Africa is one of the more stable- but electing Jacob Zuma has to have been a seriously retrograde step. It has many beautiful areas, and most of the people have a wonderful and often highly entrepreneurial work ethic. It also has slums and shanty towns on par with the worst of those in Bengal- and gangs out beating up economic migrants from Zimbabwe and Mozambique.

As a holiday destination- I'd love to visit- but I'd have serious qualms about living there longterm........

newestUser

One in five of the adult population of South Africa is HIV positive.

I'd be totally freaked out by that if I spent any time there.

jimmycrackcorm

I have yet to meet a single South African who would recommend living there.

OverseasCafe

Alan, I have to admit I have no personal experience of SA. I have relatives who visit there for six weeks every winter (they're going next week) and they absolutely love it. They do admit, however, that they lead a very sheltered life while they are there, staying within the holiday compound where their accommodation is located and spending most of their time with people they know and trust.

I spoke to a South African in Spain last year, there seem to be quite a few around the Costa del Sol and a lot of them do seem to work in the property industry. This guy runs quite a large and, by all accounts, profitable property construction and management company. In the course of our conversation he mentioned a number of countries he was investigating with regard to expanding his business. I queried why, seeing as he was a SA citizen, he didn't have any intention setting up a base there. His answer was that it took him 21 years to get out of SA and he had no intention of ever going back even though most of his family still live there.

If it is so difficult to get your own citizens to stay there or want to go back it is going to be an uphill struggle to get foreigners to take to the country in any great numbers.

El Stuntman

I have travelled to SA on business about forty times in the last seven years and have mixed feelings about it as a place to live. I've also been asked to move there several times and have refused each opportunity.

pros:
- the weather is undeniably fantastic (especially for us Irish :rolleyes:)

- it's cheap (partially caused by ZAR weakness). A beer in a hotel costs less than a Euro, a steak dinner with wine is less than a tenner. They had a property bubble of almost Irish proportions but this is now deflating. Most people have servants (put away your liberal prejudices; this creates badly needed employment)

- the food and wine is unbelievably good. Best meat in the world by far (steaks are to die for) and fruit, fish and veg are all excellent. Great wines. Nice beer (although the best is Namibian)

- the scenery is wonderful. Beaches, highveld, desert - SA has it all together with the full range of animals. It's an outdoor lifestyle similar to Australia but with more shooting (hunting is big)

- a variety of interesting cultures (Boer, Zulu, Xhosa, San, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Greeks...you name it). I think there's 9 official languages and most people speak at least three.

- the whole of Southern Africa is on your doorstep; Namibia, Botswana, Mozambique, Zambia, Mauritius etc are all a couple of hours flight away (don't go to Zim for obvious reasons)

- it's a great country for those with a bit of entrepreneurial spirit and drive; people tend to be larger than life there! You really feel like you are living life at 100 miles an hour in Jo'Burg.

- if you're into sport, SA leads the world in so many different fields, Springboks, Proteas, Ernie Els etc. There is a huge buzz around World Cup 2010.

the above probably reflects the experience of your average tourist who comes back gushing about the wonders of SA

cons:

- violent crime levels are shockingly high. A read of the daily newspaper will scare the crap out of you. A few of my colleagues have been murdered, some raped, some carjacked. Everyone lives behind high walls, has an 'armed response' sign on their wall, tries to get home before sundown, doesn't stop at red lights at night, doesn't walk anywhere, has guns in the house, car, handbag etc.

- inequality levels are disgusting. You can go from the opulent wealth of Sandton to the filthy shanty town of Alexandria in less than ten minutes. The white population still controls most of the wealth although there is a burgeoning black middle class and also a level of super-rich blacks (mainly achieved through government cronyism). Most of the population still lives in what we would regard as abject poverty.

- public services are awful; health, education etc. This can be partly linked to corruption and also partly to the lingering legacy of apartheid. The state electricity network is falling apart. Anyone who can afford it puts their family into private healthcare and education; several of my colleagues are literally bankrupting themselves to do this.

- AIDS. South Africa's response to the AIDS crisis is a joke and a national disgrace. Much poorer nations have fashioned much better anti-AIDS strategies.

- Corruption. Becoming more and more prevalent. SA is effectively a one party state (although this may change with recent developments). They are likely to have a highly corrupt man as their next president (Zuma). The police services are highly corrupt (recently different branches of the police have taken to arresting each other in vendettas). The judiciary still seems reasonably independent.

- Racism: it's still there as is it's cousin, tribalism. I have still not met one inter-racial couple in all my years of going to SA. Whites (and some educated blacks) continue to leave the country together with their desperately needed skills and wealth; UK, Australia and Canada are the favoured destinations.

In short, I couldn't advise anyone from Ireland to move there permanently but I definitely would advise you to enjoy a holiday - avoiding Johannesburg if possible.

bobbysands81

Was in Jo'berg back in 2006.

4 of us staying in a hotel in the best area of Jo'berg. The nearest decent pub was about 500 metres away, just a few minutes walk, we walked it every night. The people in the Hotel couldn't believe that we would do something so unsafe, the barmen were also astounded that we did this. That kinda speaks for itself.

Any place were private security guards are legally allowed shoot people on site has to be kind of dodgy.

I love South African people but I don't see any reason why I would ever set foot in Jo'berg again.

Would love to go to Cape Town though.

El Stuntman

bobbysands81 wrote: »

4 of us staying in a hotel in the best area of Jo'berg. The nearest decent pub was about 500 metres away, just a few minutes walk, we walked it every night. The people in the Hotel couldn't believe that we would do something so unsafe, the barmen were also astounded that we did this. That kinda speaks for itself.

you were probably in Sandton?

most locals would regard this as suicidal behaviour (must admit I do it myself occasionally)

bobbysands81

El Stuntman wrote: »

you were probably in Sandton?

most locals would regard this as suicidal behaviour (must admit I do it myself occasionally)

Sandton rings a bell alright - I believe there was a high profile murder there a couple of months ago.

jmayo

From speaking with all the South Africans (English, Afrikaners, Zulu, Xhosa, Indian descent) I have met and worked with, there is a feeling amongst a fair few of them that sadly the place may end up like Zimbabwe.
The South African response to Mugabe does little to dispel this fear