Teenager: Out of Control

Toots · 14-01-2009 9:37pm

CeilingCat wrote: »

I would be very wary of packing him off to somewhere like St. Pats unless as a very last resort. Too many children who are just a bit lost have gone in there and come out fully equipped with all the info and egging-on they needed to become criminals

I'm not sure if you can just pack the kid off to St Pats, AFAIK it is an absolute last resort, they get sent there for repeatedly breaking the law, or for very serious offences. Of course the kid the Garda told this to didn't know that. The thing is, if the OP's son carries on the way he is, and gets worse, there's a possibility he could end up somewhere like that.

LegacyUser · 14-01-2009 11:40pm

username123 wrote: »

It sounds as though the relationships in the house are all over the place. The parents need to be the disciplinarians. Its not your place to impose discipline but you see your parents NOT imposing discipline so you feel you need to. This is dysfunction.

You can adress this in a couple of different ways (you are after all an adult in your own right).
Call a family meeting and tell your parents that they need to take up the reins of imposing discipline (particularly your father) and that it is not your job to do so but you find yourself stepping in because no one else is dealing with the problem. This is naturally having an adverse effect on you and you cannot continue this way. Clearly you are willing to assist in discipline - thats ok, but its not your job to impose it altogether.

There is a lot of dysfunction going on, you are an unfortunate victim of it all. If the people at the root of it cannot get their act together then you need to move out rather than continue to be affected by it.

It really is not your responsibility to deal with this situation. I understand that you cannot watch your little brother being physical with your mother without stepping in, but you are constantly just reacting to consequences of a lack of discipline yet not in an authority position in the house. Its catch 22 for you - you cannot be the person to take the authority position, yet the people who do have the authority positions are doing nothing useful.

Im shocked that the boy was offered a cup of tea and no telling off when he got home. Your parents should have asked the guards to stay for the telling off.

I still think you need to stay out of it. You stepping in is actually enabling your father to do less. Let the situations happen, let your parents deal with the consequences. Only step in under the express condition that you are assisting (from a physical strength point of view) - not taking charge.

From your perspective what would bring resolution to this situation?

Firstly an update.

No major incidents today and an appointment has been made to go to the school tomorrow and explain the troubles were having and see where we go from there.
When talk was done after school everything was in a low key conversational mannor and despite him trying to get a rise, he didn't, so were winning already on that one.

There is still no remorse from him or apology but he is quiet enough today probably after the little fright of the gards being here when he came home.

On the first day mam posted i had already taken the parents aside and informed them that i'm not having anything to do with it anymore. I explained that the only time i will intervine is if he is threatning to my mothers safety and physical well being when my father is not home an i am. I think thats fair. I am contemplating making a list of the rules that i think should be implemented from the thread here so there is a standard set to cover all behaviours we have encountered so far in one place for reference.
I will be passing this list on and it will be up to them to implement it. The only reason i have to do it is beacuse if i don't nobody will and the child will be confused by all the different punishments coming his way over the next few months.

In regards to resolution to the situation the advice i have offered is as follows.

He does not learn from talking and that he needs to be shown what he's doing wrong. Even nothing that we make clear and very easy to understand rings home with him. Now im not talking about going as far as smashing laptops or breaking phones but its very hard to a) get him to listen if he is wrong b) its impossible to get him to admit it he is wrong c) change him in any way.

Personally after what more i have seen of him in the last few days i think he has a desturbed mind and needs psychiatric assessment. There is absolutely no way i can even see a trace of my brother i knew six months ago in him it is a different person. A person none of us like and will fight to get the old one back.

By the way people have been mentioning to keep telling him we love him and i just want to assure you this is being done a lot as of course we do and to remind him were on his side and not against him.

Mum is working on getting him an appointment with our doctor for referral.

Everything i would have like to see being done is being done now. I know i'm not the boss but i think it should have been done long ago when the problem first manifested.

LegacyUser · 14-01-2009 11:42pm

Xiney your post is one of the best yet, thanks.

Plenty of good ideas coming from all angles its getting hard to dig them all out in such a long thread at this stage so its nice to see them all in one place.

LegacyUser · 14-01-2009 11:53pm

Unregistered wrote: »

I've flicked through briefly here and tbh your son sounds like an absolute nightmare. I personally wouldn't have let it get this far, would have squashed him long ago, but that's irrelevant.

You mentioned way back he said he'd like to be a guard. This is a very long shot, but do you know anyone who is a guard, or who is associated with them?Who might be able to give him insight into exactly what it takes to become a guard, and what they do? (such as spending a lot of time in the company of kids like him????.....). Even better if he could spend a couple of hours with them, but I know that's a very very long shot.
It can't come from you, because, I'm sorry, but he doesn't seem to have any respect for his parents, so he's not going to believe, or listen to a word you say on that subject.

Otherwise, I'd agree with all sanctions suggested here.And you've got to stand up and deal with it.You AND your husband are stuck with him for life.He's 13 now. What are you going to do when he's older, with a part-time job, his own income?When he drops out of school?When you have even less control over him, when you can't just take away his money or ground him?

And for heaven's sake stop comparing him to his older brother. That will make any child rebel, let alone one who's angry enough as it is.Don't mention his older brother.

Can he change school is the next question?His friends are not a good influence.You do realise that when he leaves after these "incidents" he's out thinking to himself "I'll scare them (you and your husband), make them think I'm gone, I know they're at home worrying, even if they're not out looking for me", or something to that effect.Plus it makes him seem like some sort of hero to his friends.He's enjoying punishing you, and I'm pretty sure your reaction when he returns justifies that in his head.If possible don't let him leave the house.If he wants to be an adult and be treated like one, then part of that is learning to face up to what you've done. It may be difficult, but don't let him out of the house after a row. Make him deal with it.TRY.Personally, I'd forget the Gaeltacht altogether.Send him to French college instead if he wants to go away.Basically send him where his friends are NOT going.Make sure of that.Other end of the country kind of sure.

Best of luck, and please try some of these suggestions here. The longer you leave it the harder it will get.

Some things to clarify mam may have confused you slightly.

The Gards: we have a gard living a few doors down. i'll mention it to mam to maybe ask if he could go and talk to them. Although when the gards were here last night we got the name and details of the community gard and theyre going to arrange a meeting with either the community gard or the local JLO.

The comparing him to me thing has been blown out of all proportion. Its not a constant thing. I mean it generally just HAPPENED (we have discussed never doing it again with dad) when there was a row. Like would you not just do a bit of work like your brother etc... Not a constant damning praise me the whole time. I'm no angel either but he is trying to just get him on the positive road.

Gaeltachts gone dont worry. And the 'bad influence friends' were talking about are not in the same school as him he goes out of his way to hang around with them even though theyre in other schools. Generally the ones in his school are well behaved and the school is pretty strict.

LegacyUser · 14-01-2009 11:57pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

tbh at that stage if he doesn't want to live under the house rules and the parents are living in hell it might be time to show him the door. ideally though this gets nipped in the bud before that stage is reached

Look this is never going to happen no matter what he does but the important thing to do is to keep him from knowing that. We have stated very clearly that if he keeps it up he will have to go but legally this is never going to happen as it's illegal for him to be removed from the house at the age of 13.

If we told him to pack his bags and go and the gards found him sleeping rough somewhere its dad who would get into trouble not him. And the way the child is he would probably go out of his way to get the parents in trouble if they threw him out even for a few hours.
Bottom line is we cant keep him in let alone out.

LegacyUser · 15-01-2009 12:04am

ebmma wrote: »

Yes. And from who a young guy supposed to learn a decent and respectful way to treat his loved ones?

His own dad doesn't give a damn, why should he?

There is disfunction in the house in that way your right for spotting it.

However thats for another day please concentrate on the issue at hand.

Its not fair to be blaming my father like that. A lot of these incidences of violence are when he is at work. He works a lot as mam explained.

As for the other day when he knocked the paper out of her hands he saw that alright but didn't do anything about it as it wasn't an attact on her really but a bit of paper.

LegacyUser · 15-01-2009 12:18am

CeilingCat wrote: »

OP - about the arguments you mentioned when your son was younger - has he witnessed your husband treating you disrespectfully in the past? This could have had some influence on how he views you and your husband now. Could he be angry with your husband? Has he seen in the past that you will put up with being treated disrespectfully?

It seems that he's being given the message that your other son is better than him. That will be a double blow to him given the fact that he has a learning disability - so much value is being placed on your other sons academic achievements.

The incident where you told him to keep his mouth shut and stop bringing trouble to the house for fear of upsetting your other son in the middle of his exams - your 13 year old did the right thing, but your other sons' exams were placed above that again. Maybe he feels like he can't win, no matter what he does. The fact that he did the right thing in the first place shows that he's not a bad person.

Some months ago he managed to wresle his 16 stone father to the ground with me watching in terror. - what was the argument about? It really does sound like he's very angry with your husband.

Have you spoken to the counsellor he's been seeing? What do they think the problem might be?

I do agree that a lot of it comes with the territory, like the messy room, experimenting with drink. The best behaved teenagers can go through periods of pushing the boundaries like that.

Pick your battles.... forget the messy room and the smaller stuff until you've got the bigger stuff under control - you'll be adding fuel to the fire by picking at him for smaller stuff.

Yes - violence breeds violence. Don't show him that resorting to assaulting someone is the way to get what you want.

+1 again. And again - it'll feel worse for him because he has a learning disability.

He may not have lost interest - maybe he's avoiding it because of the fear of not doing well. Again, back to the fact that he's dyslexic and possibly has dyspraxia... it could be avoidance because his concentration level is affecting how well he does, but if he's not aware of this he might just plain old think he's crap at everything. No wonder he has low self esteem.

You might have to, as damage control for the future. Trust me, they'd rather talk to him now, than years from now when he's a problem for them.

Instead of having a uniformed guard calling to the house, why not ask could someone come down in plain clothes, to speak to him about becoming a guard? About the job, what it involves, what he can be doing now to help his chances? Get them down for positive reasons, not negative ones - tell him you think he'll be a great guard, and you'd like to help him get started on his career.

Maybe when he's a bit older (or even now, I don't know), they could have him up to the station to see what a day on the job is like??

I think you need to show him that you're as excited about his future as you are about your other sons'.

I would be very wary of packing him off to somewhere like St. Pats unless as a very last resort. Too many children who are just a bit lost have gone in there and come out fully equipped with all the info and egging-on they needed to become criminals

Agree with this 101%
Martial arts teach respect, discipline - and build confidence.

You need to get to the bottom of why it is he's so angry. All the punishments in the world will do no good if the underlying issue is not addressed. He'll just keep repeating the same patterns for the rest of his life.

Parenting classes are all very well - they'll give you a few tips and tricks, but they'll never teach you how to parent your son. By all means try them, but I think a support group (with parents in similar situations) would help you more.

It's very important that he be made aware that he is still loved, and will be given another chnace if he starts having some respect.

So he was perfectly ok when your parents weren't there. If you and he can get on grand sometimes, then maybe you can try and get it out of him who he's so angry at? Maybe he'll talk to you about how he feels as a person, leaving your parents and all the trouble out of it?

Why are you making threats that he knows you're never gonna back up?

Don't underestimate this being the cause of his anger.

Maybe he feels he doesn't fit in with these 'nice' lads because his self esteem is so low. Maybe he feels they're better than he is, so hanging around with others 'like him' (in his own view), and using drink as an escape is his only option.

OP - hang in there. If you give up on him, it'll never stop.
Your husband needs to grow a pair - maybe he feels that his own behaviour in the past has led to this and that's why he can't/won't get involved? He might not want the guards etc. involved in case his own past is brought out into the open? Well, it's not about him any more. He might have to be man enough to own how he behaved in the past and admit it was wrong.

By all means keep up with the punishments and the confrontations.... just be prepared to keep having to dish them out until he leaves home if the root cause of the problem isn't addressed.

The child has witnessed (heard not seen) his father being disrespectful towards his mother through drink. It is a problem and could be the underlying route of his problem i don't know. I'd prefer not to talk about it anymore.

As for my exams: Things have an awful habbit of happening around my exams. So much so i physically went up to his room on Sunday night and asked him to do me a favour. I walked up to his room and asked him nice as pie would he please behave himself over the next two weeks while my exams are on. Its difficult to study with upset in the house whether your at home or in college. The point that they are making is from the fact i told them this, that i asked him nicely and he has gone out of his way to bloody disrupt them ever since.

The councellor is a school councellor and id imagine we will speak to him tomorrow.

As for the join boxing or yoga thing. Your really not getting this. Unless his entertainment is on a screen he won't budge from it. The only physical thing he will do is the gym. He has refused to go the the cubs/scouts anymore.

As for trying to find out why he's angry i tried that the other day with no joy. I don't think he knows himself to be honest.

LegacyUser · 15-01-2009 12:28am

Beruthiel wrote: »

How is it possible that your husband cannot handle his 13 year old son? I cannot get my head around that.
At what point in his young life did you both loose control?
It's still not too late for you both to try a parenting course or find someone who can teach you how to consistently work towards getting your son through this.
All children need the following to grow up happy and healthy.
Consistency
Love
Consistency
Rules
Consistency

I don't know how he cant handle him, but he's coming around to what he is dealing with now i think. Maybe its because he has mainly had to deal with it on the phone and nobody would be afraid of somebody on the other end of a phone line.

I left for a j1 and things were perfect. When i came back he was a different child and was running wild. I don't want to be big headed but i half think if i never went we wouldn't have this problem as i was the only one trying to keep him in line.

A parenting course is not likely to happen in my opinion. He is in work a lot and mam wouldn't like to go to it alone she would probably go if i went with her but thats dragging me into the whole father parent thing again and i don't want that.

I agree children need to be happy and healthy. Its not difficult to keep him healthy. Up to 6 months ago he was a very happy content child but i don't know whats happened to him now.

One more thing that i'd like to mention is that he has this preconcieved idea of what a teenager should act like. I dont know where he heard it but its a 'terrible teens'. Why would he want to go out of his way to be terrible if its not in his heart? I cant understand this.

CeilingCat · 15-01-2009 1:22am

Terrifiedson wrote: »

As for my exams: Things have an awful habbit of happening around my exams. So much so i physically went up to his room on Sunday night and asked him to do me a favour. I walked up to his room and asked him nice as pie would he please behave himself over the next two weeks while my exams are on. Its difficult to study with upset in the house whether your at home or in college. The point that they are making is from the fact i told them this, that i asked him nicely and he has gone out of his way to bloody disrupt them ever since.

The councellor is a school councellor and id imagine we will speak to him tomorrow.

As for the join boxing or yoga thing. Your really not getting this. Unless his entertainment is on a screen he won't budge from it. The only physical thing he will do is the gym. He has refused to go the the cubs/scouts anymore.

As for trying to find out why he's angry i tried that the other day with no joy. I don't think he knows himself to be honest.

Believe me I know what that's like because I've experienced it myself - the trouble around exam time thing - looks like he's using the situation for maximum effect because he knows how much disruption it will cause....

Re: the school counsellor - could have some useful insights but a school counsellor can only do so much. If your parents haven't already, ask your GP to write a referral for Dr. Holmes at the Lucena Clinic in Rathgar. It may work, it may not but it's another thing to try.

Re: boxing or yoga - I mentioned martial arts actually.... fair enough if he just won't go. Has it been suggested to him at all? Boxing is great and all, but IMO a kid like him would get a lot more out of a martial art - he'll learn discipline, self confidence, patience - and the system of grading really makes you feel like you're achieving something. Maybe you could put it to him that it would really help him when he becomes a Guard??

I did karate for years, and our instructor was a lovely man (and a Guard) but he took no sh1t from nobody. He had all kinds of troublemakers in and he soon put them in their places.... frightened the bejaysus out of the lot of them - but they still showed up for every single class. It's just a thought... but as you say, if he won't go, he won't go.

Terrifiedson wrote: »

One more thing that i'd like to mention is that he has this preconcieved idea of what a teenager should act like. I dont know where he heard it but its a 'terrible teens'. Why would he want to go out of his way to be terrible if its not in his heart? I cant understand this.

It can happen... don't write him off just yet. People can act in very harmful ways when they're hurting. You said you don't think he even knows why he's angry... what's his preconceived notion of how a teenager should act? Maybe he just doesn't feel he'll ever be good enough to live up to people's expectations of him.

Lockstep · 15-01-2009 1:33am

CeilingCat wrote: »

Re: boxing or yoga - I mentioned martial arts actually.... fair enough if he just won't go. Has it been suggested to him at all? Boxing is great and all, but IMO a kid like him would get a lot more out of a martial art - he'll learn discipline, self confidence, patience - and the system of grading really makes you feel like you're achieving something. Maybe you could put it to him that it would really help him when he becomes a Guard??

I did karate for years, and our instructor was a lovely man (and a Guard) but he took no sh1t from nobody. He had all kinds of troublemakers in and he soon put them in their places.... frightened the bejaysus out of the lot of them - but they still showed up for every single class. It's just a thought... but as you say, if he won't go, he won't go.

THe reason I suggest boxing is that by default, most clubs will be very accustomed to dealing with problem childs. GIves them an excellent way to vent anger and learn discipline in a constructive manner.

I'm not trying to diss martial arts. I went to a few classes of some ofthe major styles before I settled on boxing but the spiritual aspect can be a bit frustrating to teens as well as instructors who may not necessarily know how to deal with kids like this guy. Boxing has a natural attraction to a lot of kids from lower area districs. MOst coaches will be extremely familiar with cases approacing the OPs kid.

CeilingCat · 15-01-2009 1:34am

Terrifiedson wrote: »

I left for a j1 and things were perfect. When i came back he was a different child and was running wild.

Just another thought - maybe he's jealous of how well you're doing.... all the opportunities you have, the respect you're getting because of your studies etc.? It would certainly tie in with him upsetting you around exam time....

If it is the case, it's a tough one to solve.... helping him to value himself for who he is and his own strengths is the way to go if that is the issue.

CeilingCat · 15-01-2009 1:40am

kickoutthejams wrote: »

THe reason I suggest boxing is that by default, most clubs will be very accustomed to dealing with problem childs. GIves them an excellent way to vent anger and learn discipline in a constructive manner.

I'm not trying to diss martial arts. I went to a few classes of some ofthe major styles before I settled on boxing but the spiritual aspect can be a bit frustrating to teens as well as instructors who may not necessarily know how to deal with kids like this guy. Boxing has a natural attraction to a lot of kids from lower area districs. MOst coaches will be extremely familiar with cases approacing the OPs kid.

Don't get me wrong - I think boxing is fantastic

Different systems suit different people.
I just thought that in a case like this where the kid seems to have low self esteem, the grading system gives you something tangible - moving up belt by belt....

Also - depending on the club and the martial art - lots of them don't get overly spiritual... I know our club wasn't at all (very rough area back in the day), but at the same time we all came out feeling good about ourselves and respecting each other

Fajitas! · 15-01-2009 3:18am

Personally, I wouldn't be the biggest fan of sending him off to boxing just yet.

If he's intimidating from going to the gym, he's going to be more confident after his first few visits to the boxing club. Start him on the road to respect before you send him in.

I had to fly past the last few pages because I really should be asleep (Sorry if I missed anything already covered), but in regards to the Gardai, he says he will ring the Gardai if such and such a thing happens. Go into the station yourselves, find out who the JLO is, talk to them, tell them you're worried about alcohol/drugs/violence, and all the rest of it, and make sure it is taken down.

I know you say you don't want to ruin his chances of being a Garda, but at the end of the day, he could get himself into enough trouble anyways if he's drinking in the park at 13.

If it's all good and reported, next time he strikes out, DO ring the Gardai, have some trust in them - If it dosn't work, it dosn't work.. If he is causing hassle, out of the house with him. He has no right to assault any of you. Ring the Gardai - Sure, they won't appreciate the paperwork of another domestic, but he'll start to realise that you're not taking the sh*t anymore.

Doing all this also means that if he was to ring the Gardai, for a ficticious report, or makes out something happened when it didn't, they'll be aware that he has caused problems - It would put you in a safer place if he was malicious enough to make something up.

Take his privilidges from him, he dosn't deserve them. If he wants them, he'll earn them.

If you threaten something, do it. Again, respect. Don't go down the road of nagging either - Constantly getting on to him to clean his room, and so and so will happen if he dosn't. Say it once, if he dosn't, that's his laptop gone.

As already posted, don't go down the violence route if at all possible.

To be quite honest, if I was in your shoes, and I knew he was down the park drinking, or in the same derelict house drinking, I'd just call the cops. His friends won't be too happy if the Gardai call around to their usual drinking spots every time. Especially if a JLO calls out his name.

Sm0ke · 15-01-2009 5:56am

This is gonna sound baddddd but i was that 13 yo but at 16yo . I wish i could give u the answers i really do, but nothing worked on me i just coped on for a year or 2 when i turned 18. YOu do need to sort him out tough the last thing u want is him still being unbalanced when he is out of his teens things get worse as he will get older.

He could be suffering from depression aswell ( just from a few of the things you said that were incredibly similar to myself when i was younger ) as there can be alot of anger issues if ur a teen suffering from it (when i was a teen i was always angry always aggressive etc, I was diagnosed with depression and the tablets did help a little at the time, drug problems at the time tho so i ruined the tabs by using.)

if u want i can Pm you some details for John of God's ? they have a very good unit for problem teens and teens with drink or drug problems, sort of helping to focus them so they dont end up addicts or anything aswell.

I only read the first few pages (its 6am and i aint slept yet XD), does he have any drug problems or has started smoking hash or anything recently? to level with u on that one if he is smoking the hash that is in this country he will be doin a huge amount of damage to his mental health as there is so much ****e in it aswell as its normal chemicals that it reeks pure havoc on the brain and in a very short time can turn ur nice son into an evil git.

My heart, prayers and taughts are with you. You have also helped me understand the pain i must have caused my parents far better than i understood it before.

thank you, Keep your heads up and the very best of luck.

Snowie · 15-01-2009 6:37am

terrifiedmum wrote: »

He has a learning difficulty that is currently being assessed so he got the laptop to help him with it. His school recommended it. He is going for assesment on whether he has dispraxia or not. We know he has very mild dislexia as it was diagnosed before.

Please keep comments in regard to our bad parenting on hold for the moment.

We need to know what to do with him now.

Hey Op sorry to here about your son and his outlandish emotional and clearly frustrated behavour.... Bye booth parties your husband, your oldest and your son....

Look at the things he doe's he tried to spat at you he curse's at you he physically threatens you, he throws tantrums.....

To me that's unacceptable behavior... Granted everybody's saying be firm with him and show him who's the boss, but i recon that would suppress him more and make him worse...
Taking his things off him could in some respect force him into a position to behave him self... But it's also a form of emotional black mail, which will get the affect, but not necessarily the right affect...

People have said he's spoilt, people have said he's a little toe rag that should be locked up for a night hit punished..... But I think/Know in general this sort of behavior would add some what fuel to the fire...

My views on the situation are as follows. He's 14 he's starting to grow up he's getting older hormone's are all over the place, he's all so dyslexic, with a possible a.d.d... I think because in some ways i was hugely similar to him as a young adult. i can Some what understand where he's coming from... that does not mean for one moment i condone it!

The fact that he's the only teenager in the house i think that some what isolates him from every one else, Which would lead him to think he special that the rule's don't some how apply, that in fact he's above the rule's.. Then there's also the fact that he thinks he knows it all as most teenager's do.

Now the question is how do you deal with this?
That's something i cant say but I could give some suggestions to what you could do...

You could get him into activities 5 nights a week and on Saturday have him shattered tired so he has no energy to, kick up a fuss...

Does he play sports if so what kind of sport does he play ?

He's dyslexic, is creative? what kind of dyslexia does he have... is it reading spelling, booth as well as transferring whats in his head to paper? which believe me is hugely frustrating...

What are his teacher's like how are his grade's ?

I personally feel that you need to bring him to counselling he certainly has a lot pent up rage in side of him and a lot of problems dealing with his emotion's... All so understanding what's right and wrong. Due to the lack of disaplin...

I hope this helps in some way's as everyone's saying how your son is a beastly little creature who behaves terribly when i think he just completely misunderstood some what.. which drives him even more angry, and makes every one's life more difficult....

Just my two sense hope it helps...

The Sweeper · 15-01-2009 8:11am

I'm going to keep this as short as I can because there is a lot of information already on this thread.

Terrifiedmum and terrifiedson, and I assume passivedad, ye need to get your terrified selves into family counselling. As it stands, mum, dad and older son are not working together against the 13-year-old devil child. Ye present a divided front, and as such you're all a pushover. Divide and conquer - until you lot have a game plan and are backing each other up 100%, this will continue and no amount of go-karting or boxing or talking to the school counsellor will help. (You might find the school counsellor even recommends you sort yourselves out so you're working as one unit.)

You lot HAVE to sort out your own problems first - the drinking by your dad, the history that brings up with your mum, the current pussyfooting around it and your family's obvious feeling that you're not perfect because you won't call the guards when you HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO, and you're worried about what the neighbours think. You come across as one great big target, and the 13 year old is playing every weakness you have. He threatens you with the gardai, because you'd be apparently mortified if they came around. LET THEM COME. They'll take one look at the 14 stone baby, his nice clothes, his mobile phone and his laptop and it'll be BLATANTLY obvious he's not suffering abuse. Trust me, in any family altercation they are NOT going to take his side.

Once you start to address your own problems with each other, then you can present a united front to the youngest of you.

If he can knock something out of your mother's hands and your father doesn't pull him up on it, that's a problem - it shows that your father doesn't see that as disrespectful to your mother so the child knows he can do it again.

If one of you takes something off him and the other two don't 100% support that decision, it's a null decision, pointless, worthless.

Every fight he causes between you is fuel to the fire of his own dysfunction, and it seems to be easy to pit you against each other because there ARE issues that are unresolved. He's feeding on what doesn't work between you and throwing it back in your faces.

Sort yourselves out first, then turn the great big united spotlight on your youngest. You can't solve his problems when the breeding ground that they started in - your home life - stays the same.

spurious · 15-01-2009 8:18am

This kid reminds me so much of many of the guys I have in my classes. Please make sure the school he is in is one where he will get proper help with his learning difficulty, should it turn out that he has one.

He's at a fairly crappy/confusing time of life, his body has a life of its own and he's starting to glimpse the world of adulthood, with all its contradictions. He's angry and frustrated (possibly due to academic failure and self-comparison with his brother) and finding no 'real' boundaries to his behaviour as it escalates.

He wants limits, rules and consistency - they all do at that age, no matter how much they pretend otherwise.

Sam Vimes · 15-01-2009 8:34am

Terrifiedson wrote: »

Look this is never going to happen no matter what he does but the important thing to do is to keep him from knowing that. We have stated very clearly that if he keeps it up he will have to go but legally this is never going to happen as it's illegal for him to be removed from the house at the age of 13.

my post was in response to this

What are you going to do when he's older, with a part-time job, his own income?When he drops out of school?When you have even less control over him, when you can't just take away his money or ground him?

so i wasn't talking about when he's 13

username123 · 15-01-2009 9:46am

The mere fact that both terrifiedmum and terrifiedson are posting here seperately and from some of the things terrifiedson has said shows that no one is stepping into the leadership role in the house.

Minesajackdaniels has hit the nail on the head - the rest of the family is presenting a divided front.

The boy can disrespect his mother in front of his father and not be disciplined for it. Terrifiedson steps in even though he is not a parent. Terrifiedmum is actually afraid of her own child. Passivedad seems to not want to deal with things..........

Terrifiedmum and Passivedad need to step into the authority roles in the house.
While I agree with the ideas of parenting classes, martial arts etc.... realistically the FAMILY DYNAMICS need to change. No amount of parenting classes or activities for the boy is going to change what is going on in the house if the behaviour of the other people in the house doesnt change.

Somewhere along the line the boy has lost all respect for both parents. I dont know how that came about but unless they earn back that respect they will always have a devil child.

The wrong people in the house are grabbing for leadership, terrifiedson should not be involved in any kind of discipling of his brother yet he does, and the boy is manipulating everyone and controlling them with his bad behaviour. If there was proper leadership being shown by the parents this wouldnt be happening.

Its going to take a full lifestyle and behaviour change from the whole family to sort this out.

Jumpy · 15-01-2009 9:58am

I think he also needs to be drug tested.

Rage is a common factor in a lot of body building drugs and some street drugs.
Then again its also a common effect of teenage hormones.

Either your dad is a weed or he is freakishly strong for a 13 year old.
What you are describing though is rage. You need to look into the cause, it is as important if not more than dealing with the effects.

LegacyUser · 15-01-2009 12:02pm

you mentioned he attacked the mother. Perhaps you could threaten to tell his friends if he does it again. It wont stop the other problems but it might stop that

Trinity · 15-01-2009 6:16pm

Terrifiedson wrote: »

I don't know how he cant handle him, but he's coming around to what he is dealing with now i think. Maybe its because he has mainly had to deal with it on the phone and nobody would be afraid of somebody on the other end of a phone line.

I left for a j1 and things were perfect. When i came back he was a different child and was running wild. I don't want to be big headed but i half think if i never went we wouldn't have this problem as i was the only one trying to keep him in line.

A parenting course is not likely to happen in my opinion. He is in work a lot and mam wouldn't like to go to it alone she would probably go if i went with her but thats dragging me into the whole father parent thing again and i don't want that.

I agree children need to be happy and healthy. Its not difficult to keep him healthy. Up to 6 months ago he was a very happy content child but i don't know whats happened to him now.

One more thing that i'd like to mention is that he has this preconcieved idea of what a teenager should act like. I dont know where he heard it but its a 'terrible teens'. Why would he want to go out of his way to be terrible if its not in his heart? I cant understand this.

It goes back to the same thing and i understand you have addressed this now, but you were in the parenting role. Then you left and his boundaries were gone, he was lost without someone looking out for him. (not to say your parents didnt look after him)

I think this is what happened to my sister, i moved to the UK for a while and i never should have left.

You have removed yourself from the parenting role but stay in the big brother role.

It sounds like he looks up to you, even though it doesnt seem that way now with his behaviour, just be there for him and involve him. Try get out for a lads day every now and again. Praise his good behaviour. Reward him with your time.

Are there any computer clubs he could go to? Any computer courses he could do to keep him occupied in the evenings?

DarkJager · 15-01-2009 7:14pm

Unregistered wrote: »

you mentioned he attacked the mother. Perhaps you could threaten to tell his friends if he does it again. It wont stop the other problems but it might stop that

How could you possibly think that will solve anything?? Tell his friends that he attacked his mother? This isn't some disney tv show where his friends will tell him off, they'd more than likely give him a pat on the back for it.

f3qh5g0z6vc7ob · 15-01-2009 7:41pm

Hi Terrifed Son,

Im writing this solely to you as I feel you are prob the most level headed in the house, first of I would like to say fair play to you for helping your mother as you do, she sounds like a very caring woman.

I want to first point out that when reading all the posts I kept noticing you mention your father isnt always at home, could this be part of the problem, could your brother be craving attention from him or from a father figure.

Also you said he only started been like this 6 months ago?
When did he start going to the gym? Could he be taking something to enhance himself while at the gym? Your mother pointed out he is getting big muscles? This shouldnt be happening to a 13yr old. Maybe you could go to the gym with him, you said you did brotherly things with him before why not again?

Another thing your mother said that she cant lock him into his room as he has the attic room and it has no door. How about the next time he is in school or goes off on a mad one, you and your mother go to his room take all the stuff out and move it into YOUR room, and you move yourself up to the attic! That way she can then lock him in and also it means you are further away from noise etc so you can study????

Please also put your mother at ease, if a JLO steps in there will be no record of this after he turns 18. I would advise to do this now rather than the police bringing him home one night and then thinking your parents are bad parents or even worse him going out and been arrested.

Your mother said in one post when your brother had run away that she not sure where he is but that yous think he could be in the park like last time, well if that happens again, you and your dad go to the park and pull him out make a show of him in front of friends, let him rant and rage but drag him out, as it seems to him now he can do what he wants and no one cares.

I know if i was his age and my parents made a show of me like this i would think twice of doing it again incase my mates laughed at me.

I would however defo get a drugs test done.

I wish you all the best of luck and hope you will take some advice from this and other posts.

LegacyUser · 15-01-2009 7:45pm

DarkJager wrote: »

How could you possibly think that will solve anything?? Tell his friends that he attacked his mother? This isn't some disney tv show where his friends will tell him off, they'd more than likely give him a pat on the back for it.

Maybe not. They might have more cop on than he does.

DarkJager · 15-01-2009 8:24pm

Unregistered wrote: »

Maybe not. They might have more cop on than he does.

Do any 13 year olds that hang around the streets near you demonstrate any cop on?

LegacyUser · 15-01-2009 10:17pm

what the hell?

how have you let his behaviour get to this level? i'm just over being a teenager myself. sure, i was moody and sloppy as usual. but i wouldn't dream of treating people the way your son is.

what that lad needs is a wake-up call. but i don't know how you're going to do that. one thing i'd let you know is you can't keep blaming him. he is a result of your parenting, maybe with the praise you say your older son gets he's feeling resentful. maybe if you started making him feel appreciated for himself he'll soften.

but it's going to be hard. i can't understand this new kind of parenting. the 'no slapping' policies. you say you'd love to beat your son, if you disciplined him properly in the beginning maybe you wouldn't have this problem. i'm not saying beat a young child, but show them who is in charge. when i was young and i didn't listen to my parents, i got a smack. it didn't traumatise me, it was a simple tap on the arm or bottom. but it would snap me to attention and 9/10 i learned my lesson

Pub07 · 15-01-2009 10:25pm

How in the hell does a 13 year old have a gym membership, and have a laptop bought for him for xmas after acting like a little bollix in the months leading up to it?

terrifiedson wrote:

As for the other day when he knocked the paper out of her hands he saw that alright but didn't do anything about it as it wasn't an attact on her really but a bit of paper.

He wasn't just 'attacking a bit of paper', he was showing serious disrespect to her by knocking that from her hands. If I had've done that to my mother when I was 13 and my father saw I would've been in some serious **** over it.

LegacyUser · 15-01-2009 10:51pm

Dear Terrified Mum

I am very sorry to hear about your son and the turmoil he is putting you through. Having worked with teenagers in a social care setting may i recommend a few things.

1. I would reccomend that you all as a family go to see a counsellor. He will need to hear your side of how he is making you feel in a controlled environment.

2. Get a physical and metal checkup done on your son. [this behaviour is not normal under any circumstances and a full mental health check up would be required as a lot of disorders can go unnoticed if they are not requested to be checked.]

3. Try get your son to go to a behaviour therapist.

4. Get full reports from the school and monitor his behaviour and see if there are any sparks that set him off.

I hope this will be of some help to you.

I know it is a terrifing suitation to be in, especially being attacked by a youth i myself have been in the suitation.

Unfortunatly as one op said the guards should be requested if he gets violent at home again. For the sake of all your family and their safety as well as your sons own safety, things can quickly get out of hand.

I wish you all the best.

LegacyUser · 15-01-2009 11:30pm

So sorry to hear about your problems (both mum and big brother)

Have you ever thought of bringing him to see what life is like for people that leave home at 13?
What about bringing him to see how less fortunate people are living and that they have no choice but to live on the streets.
We once had a romanian teenage boy staying with us. He thought everything in Ireland was great. No money problems, no drug problems, no slums, no fears.
We drove him to a crime ridden part of our city (during the day as too dangerous at night with joyriders and fighting). He was in shock. He never knew such a life existed. All our words trying to explain for weeks how bad things can be fell on deaf ears. When it was all laid out in the stark light of day in front of him it hit home immediately.
My mother brought me to a shelter for battered wives when I was young. She used to help out there while I went to a class on the weekend. It was a real eye opener and things just clicked. This is what it is like for the less fortunate. I still recall some of the womens faces when a husband started battering on the door trying to get in.
I think maybe your son needs a cold, hard, wake up call. He has all he could need for a teenager. Bring him somewhere to volunteer and maybe if Mum did it with him you have something to discuss at home. Some common ground and he gets a life lesson.
Hope things are calming down for you but will never end if you don't set about resolving it. Life is not to be led in fear. Do NOT let this continue. It will get better. Once the boundaries are laid down and kept then everyone knows were they stand. No confusion = No excuses.

LegacyUser · 16-01-2009 10:56am

Alyson Brief Season wrote: »

Hi Terrifed Son,

Im writing this solely to you as I feel you are prob the most level headed in the house, first of I would like to say fair play to you for helping your mother as you do, she sounds like a very caring woman.

I want to first point out that when reading all the posts I kept noticing you mention your father isnt always at home, could this be part of the problem, could your brother be craving attention from him or from a father figure.

Also you said he only started been like this 6 months ago?
When did he start going to the gym? Could he be taking something to enhance himself while at the gym? Your mother pointed out he is getting big muscles? This shouldnt be happening to a 13yr old. Maybe you could go to the gym with him, you said you did brotherly things with him before why not again?

Another thing your mother said that she cant lock him into his room as he has the attic room and it has no door. How about the next time he is in school or goes off on a mad one, you and your mother go to his room take all the stuff out and move it into YOUR room, and you move yourself up to the attic! That way she can then lock him in and also it means you are further away from noise etc so you can study????

Please also put your mother at ease, if a JLO steps in there will be no record of this after he turns 18. I would advise to do this now rather than the police bringing him home one night and then thinking your parents are bad parents or even worse him going out and been arrested.

Your mother said in one post when your brother had run away that she not sure where he is but that yous think he could be in the park like last time, well if that happens again, you and your dad go to the park and pull him out make a show of him in front of friends, let him rant and rage but drag him out, as it seems to him now he can do what he wants and no one cares.

I know if i was his age and my parents made a show of me like this i would think twice of doing it again incase my mates laughed at me.

I would however defo get a drugs test done.

I wish you all the best of luck and hope you will take some advice from this and other posts.

This started when i came back from the states 6 months ago (or while i was over there i don't know) but he only got a gym membership before christmas.

I intend to go to the gym with him but i only got a membership 2 weeks ago and have been doing exams so haven't got a chance yet.

To be honest with you i dont think locking him in his room is the answer and switching rooms isn't an option. I couldn't live in that filth up there and as there is no door on the attic whats going on downstairs is greatly amplified so it wouldn't be any use for study. But thanks for the suggestion anyway.

When he ran away to the park he was on his own on both occasions 'walking' as he told the gards.

dolliemix · 16-01-2009 5:20pm

When he ran away to the park he was on his own on both occasions 'walking' as he told the gards.[/QUOTE]

I actually feel really sorry for your brother now. Please convince your parents to get professional help asap. There are a number of things happening with this child. Maybe he is thinking

- everyone is angry with me at home
- all the arguments at home are my fault according to them
- how come dad is allowed behave a certain way and I'm not?
- how come everything my brother does is right but everything I do is wrong?
- how come I have problems in school with learning?

Frustration for children with learning difficulties often peaks 1st or 2nd Year of school, when students do formal exams and classes get streamed. It is really hard for them when they look around and see other kids getting As and Bs.

You say he doesn't hang out with people from his own school. Why? This is unusual unless its geographical. Do the 'well behaved' boys unintentionally make him feel inferior because of his learning disabiity?

Also, I really feel for him wandering in the park on his own. This is his 'safe' place for the moment, and we know this is not a safe place for a 13 year old to be. I'd say if one of you followed his there and caught with him, he is probably crying his eyes out wondering why is this all happening to me?

I think your parents need to sort themselves out and as one poster already said show a unified front. You should not be involved in this and it's not fair on you that you are.

In a lot of responses from your mum it's a case of 'there's no point in doing this because...' , or ' my husband won't do anything ' etc. They need to stop finding excuses for not doing things. Yes, it takes effort and probably more confrontation, insults, threats and arguments, but until the grown -ups in this house become more pro-active , your brother is in limbo, and at risk of something really dangerous happening to him when he goes for a 'walk' in the park.

You say he was a great lad up until 6 months ago - I would say please get outside help and fight for him.

LegacyUser · 18-01-2009 12:02am

Just wondering if alcohol and drugs are a problem?
Sounds like they might.
There is a good service with the HSE that deal with youth drug and alcohol issues, they provide counselling, cbt, family therapy, psychiatric care and medication if needed.
Its called YODA and is on the belgard road in tallght, they cover a large part of dublin as far as i know. They were very good with my family

Best of luck

miss no stars · 18-01-2009 2:29am

First off, I see two main things happening here, the EXACT same things that are almost being kept in check with my own 16 year old brother right now.

Firstly, that kid is not fundamentally bad; he's scared.
So he hit puberty and secondary school. He started to literally notice more of the world around him. Probably figured that the same boundries that existed when he was in primary school no longer did and wanted to see where the new ones were and found none. That is SCARY for a kid. Not to mention that his body is changing and his emotions are probably all over the place. Someone who's meant to be his sibling is more like a parent and his dad is more like a sibling. It's been said already but kids need boundries. Boundries mean safety and security. Neither of which he has. He's his own boss and far too scared by what that means to deal with it.

Secondly, he's living in his older brother's shaddow.
Exact same in my house, except a smaller age gap. I've always gotten the good grades, very high achiever in pretty much everything I tried, never in trouble or any trouble, hardly drank at all before I turned 18, very close with both parents.
My brother struggled a little with school but was still considered a bright student. However, he compared himself to me, rather than to what is considered "normal" and he ended up living in my shaddow. "Why bother, I'll never do as well as her". Poor kid was actually battling moderate dyslexia that wasn't detected until he was 16 because he was so clever he found ways of compensating. In the mean time a LOT of damage was done - talk to him and he'll have you believe he's clinically retarded.
Then my dad was talking to him one day, just about how he's gone from having two kids to an adult and a teenager in the house. Not thinking or intending any malice at all, he mentioned that he'd now consider me to be a friend and not just a daughter, but didn't say the same about him. This is only due to the age difference but it really, really, really crushed my brother. He was seriously very crushed by it. It's been alluded to that some comparison has been made between both sons. No wonder the poor kid is acting out.

Terrifiedson, stick to your guns and don't get involved. From my own experience, your brother wants you to slot into the role you're meant to - his brother and a confidant if he needs one - not under any circumstances a parent.
Terrifiedmum - your son wants you and your husband to be parents and disciplinarians, even if he doesn't know it.

I just have a couple of suggestions you might want to try.

This might sound bizarre, but Terrifiedmum, if at all possible, you need to find a flat for your older son until his summer exams are over. Your child seems to be crying out for attention and doing everything within his power to get it. If you remove your older son from the equation and it's only him that attention is going to in the house he might feel less threatened and calm down a little. It also removes the pressure of actively having a "Golden child" in the house to whom he is compared.

Terrifiedson, when it's calm, why not ask your brother if he wants to go for a walk with you and go to the playground or something. Say you need a break from the books and would like to spend time with him, seeing as you never seem to get to when the parents are around. Don't go on at him about his behaviour, just chat about random stuff - girls, films, games, what the gym is like whatever, just not his behaviour. He needs a friend looking out for him and it seems that right now he has none (and knows it).

madmik · 18-01-2009 2:52am

Terrifiedson wrote: »

What do other people think of this? I like it. Scare tactics may work with him cause nothing else does.
But i know who's going to end up taking him through town, me. And i don't know if i have the balls for that. I was attacked by a junky before.

Is taking him to the morgue too much for a 13 year old?

he will end up in the morgue if he continues living the way hes going

everyone in your house might be scared of him but if he tries that **** with
outsiders they wont hold back

he wonty rule st pats the way he rules your house,hel be begging for his old life back when its too late

u really need to show him whos boss,he might be 14 stone but its gognna happen sooner or later
better it comes from u than somebody who doesnt care whether he lives through the experience or not

zxcvbnm1 · 18-01-2009 6:34pm

Maybe someone else has raised this already but i didn't see it in the first few pages that io read.

But - what the hell kind of a wuss your husband?

Like - it seems it's your son that has to come to the rescue.

I think you have to have a good shouting match with your husband so he can stop being such a wuss and get his head out of the sand.

Lets fact it - your other son is only 13 ?
Is your husband a man or a mouse?

LegacyUser · 18-01-2009 10:14pm

you shouldn't let him leave the house but to avoid him sneaking out, here's what my parents used to do- while he is grounded, give him a pair of light pyjamas (preferably pink or with something embarassing printed on them. During school term you'll have to give him his uniform but take it away when he gets home and at weekends. Give him just slippers or formal black shoes that are difficult to run in for school. He can't leave the house if he had nothing to wear, see?

Zaph · 18-01-2009 11:54pm

zxcvbnm1 wrote: »

Maybe someone else has raised this already but i didn't see it in the first few pages that io read.

But - what the hell kind of a wuss your husband?

Like - it seems it's your son that has to come to the rescue.

I think you have to have a good shouting match with your husband so he can stop being such a wuss and get his head out of the sand.

Lets fact it - your other son is only 13 ?
Is your husband a man or a mouse?

I fail to see how further adding to the domestic turmoil is going to help things. yes, there are issues with the father, but having a screaming match over them isn't going to do anyone any good and just plays into the kid's hands as it further divides the family. The father certainly needs to face up to his responsibilities, and if he's in denial about how bad the kid is, a good look at this thread might be just what he needs.

LegacyUser · 20-01-2009 3:58am

Get the 22yr old to talk to him.. Man to man. He should explain the seriousness of his actions and explain how much his behaviour is upsetting everyone in the family. Explain everything, talk about his future etc. If he cries hes a changed man.

LegacyUser · 20-01-2009 3:30pm

Update

Things are all quiet on the western front. They went to the school and the teachers they spoke to sang his praises so he is not in trouble up there.

A full set of rules (3*A4 pages) have been implimented and are working well.

Although im still not convinced, i may be calling on you again before long.

Thank you all for your help.

CeilingCat · 21-01-2009 2:52am

That's good to hear - hope all stays peaceful

mountainyman · 21-01-2009 9:51am

terrifiedson wrote: »

Update

Things are all quiet on the western front. They went to the school and the teachers they spoke to sang his praises so he is not in trouble up there.

A full set of rules (3*A4 pages) have been implimented and are working well.

Although im still not convinced, i may be calling on you again before long.

Thank you all for your help.

Do you not think that maybe if he was fine when your mother was away and he is fine at school and your dad thinks their is no big deal that your mother is the problem.
She seems to be over reacting to very minor provocations. For example she said she was out of her mind with worry and there was no sign of him when it was 8 PM. She claimed that he had hit her when he had smacked a magazine out of her hands.

Maybe the kid is not at fault?

mountainyman · 21-01-2009 9:53am

Unregistered wrote: »

Get the 22yr old to talk to him.. Man to man. He should explain the seriousness of his actions and explain how much his behaviour is upsetting everyone in the family. Explain everything, talk about his future etc. If he cries hes a changed man.

It doesn't seem to be affecting the Dad and if the 22 year old did not have to mediate with the mother would he be upset?

Sam Vimes · 21-01-2009 10:04am

mountainyman wrote: »

For example she said she was out of her mind with worry and there was no sign of him when it was 8 PM

thought that was a bit odd myself

LegacyUser · 21-01-2009 6:04pm

Op do you think maybe your mother is too protective? This wouldn't explain his behaviour but its a thought.My parents used to be very protective and religious. If i went away for the day or hung out with my friends they would say decades of the rosary. This used to put a lot of guilt onto me.

Teenager: Out of Control

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