Private Fee-Paying Schools

K4t

Why do they deserve funding (€90million a year) from the State?

Surely it is immoral, especially in these 'R word' times!

I have to go eat my dinner but I'll leave you with this article and my trust that you will debate this topic tirelessly into the night.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1201/1227910420330.html

p.s. In my opinion it's a disgrace. Can't wait for the Private health care system in another 10 years :rolleyes:

Fad

Think of a fee paying school as an expensive club, parents pay the membership, I go there instead of another school. My parents are paying for a school with better facilities, I get some better opportunities in the school I'm in.

My parents pay taxes, so my parents still pay my teachers salaries, if the state was to withdraw the funding from my school I think my parents should be entitled to some form of tax rebate or something as the state wouldn't have any part in my education.

PurpleFistMixer

Everyone pays taxes, taxes pay for teachers, everyone gets free education.

Some people for some bizarre reason pay extra money for something they're already getting for free.
Okay, slight exaggeration, I admit. They pay for better facilities, their children to mix with the "right" sort of crowd (LOLOLOLOL), and other such things.

Ardscoil Ris

K4t wrote: »

Why do they deserve funding (€90million a year) from the State?

Surely it is immoral, especially in these 'R word' times!

I have to go eat my dinner but I'll leave you with this article and my trust that you will debate this topic tirelessly into the night.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1201/1227910420330.html

p.s. In my opinion it's a disgrace. Can't wait for the Private health care system in another 10 years :rolleyes:

Get over it.

I personally wouldn't go to a fee-paying/grind school. It all seems a bit too pretentious for my liking.

On an aside: I think there's far more merit in achieving a good Leaving Cert. in an "ordinary" school than there is in achieving one in a fee-paying/grind school; I'd be far prouder of myself doing it the traditional way, anyway.

the_syco

I think there's far more merit in achieving a good Leaving Cert. in an "ordinary" school than there is in achieving one in a fee-paying/grind school

Meh. Depends on the school, tbh. Some local schools leave a lot to be desired, thus the parents send the kids to a private school. In some cases, they're able to send the kids to an alternative school in the next town/village/area, but often they're not allowed, so they send their kids to a private school.

If the school your kid was going to go to was a run down piece of sh|t, where absenteeism was high, fail rates were high, and you had the money to send you kid to a school down the road which had an excellent success rate, and the kids enjoyed going to the school, which would you pick? True, many kids going to the fee paying schools are snobs sending their kids to become snobs, but the few people I've met who went to fee-paying schools were sound enough.

themont85

K4t wrote: »

Why do they deserve funding (€90million a year) from the State?

Surely it is immoral, especially in these 'R word' times!

I have to go eat my dinner but I'll leave you with this article and my trust that you will debate this topic tirelessly into the night.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1201/1227910420330.html

p.s. In my opinion it's a disgrace. Can't wait for the Private health care system in another 10 years :rolleyes:

Actually of all the times for 'fee paying schools' this is a good time for the State's finances. The 90 million a year argument is complete bull tbh, fee paying schools save the State millions. As has been said Parents pay the taxes which pay for second levels schools , they choose to send their kids to fee paying schools which receive money for the payment of teachers with none of the extras. Effectively fee paying schools subsidise the 'free sector'.

The Irish Times education editor has a serious vendetta against these schools and always push it as do numpties such as the TUI. Their reasoning is entirely based on 'morals' as is the OP. It looks bad on paper, we're seperating the classes well that will only increase if you get rid of this payment.

In the last budget fee paying schools were ravaged by cuts but this was largely ignored because of disability going down, however, very little was focused on minorities such as Protestant educations going down.

The Irish private education system is fairly unique in that while no doubt their is privelage involved, it really pales in comparision to private schools in the States and other countries.

It would have several effects;
1)Fees in a lot of schools would be unaffordable to parents, they would climb significantly.
2)Certain schools would certaintly join the free scheme quashing the 'savings' of 100m proposed by the TUI. A high percentage of parents would not be able to afford these payments and would send their kids to the free schools again.
3)Of course a certain number of private schools will still exist which will become more and more elitist, thus quashing any argument that schools will become entirely integrated between classes.
4)I can see a number more grind schools such as the Institute popping up which themselves are already independent of any funding. These schools aren't actually that expensive in comparision with some current fee paying schools, however, they are far removed from the all encompasing education we aspire. This is because they are wholly acedemic with no sport, musicals ect involved. Again a certain percentage of parents would choose this likely for 5th and 6th year.

What will emerge is this imo. We will have a free system costing us more than it does currently but on the flip side we will have a smaller fee paying sector, however, this sector will be far more solid and elisitst than its previous incarnation. This will have one more effect which should worry the left wing TUI more than anything else; it will create a far bigger private teacher sector.

As of now very few teachers are employed in the private sector(barring grinds), there are some in places like the Institute(not regular fee paying schools but grind ones). The new private sector will need more teachers taken out of the current pay scale and into theirs. They will cherry pick the very best, which will diminish our free system greatly and create a two tier teaching sector.

The only way to address the 'immoral' nature of our education system i believe would be for the Government to not only bring in far reaching legeslation but probably change the constitution to prohibit any private sector teaching of second level students.

melekalikimaka

This old chestnut again.

Chips on their shoulders versus lexus in the drive

Unregistered.

Their funding should be withdrawn, and it should be used to increase the public schools facilities, reduce class sizes etc... to bring them up to be on par with private schools.

The private schools will have to put up their price, but who cares? - Who then will pay more to go to a school which which will be no better facilitated than a public schools? The really wealthy might - but who cares?!

The public schools would be the main beneficiary, who's gonna argue with that?

themont85

Unregistered. wrote: »

Their funding should be withdrawn, and it should be used to increase the public schools facilities, reduce class sizes etc... to bring them up to be on par with private schools.

The private schools will have to put up their price, but who cares? - Who then will pay more to go to a school which which will be no better facilitated than a public schools? The really wealthy might - but who cares?!

The public schools would be the main beneficiary, who's gonna argue with that?

This magical 100 million will not go to helping public schools. I gurantee you if they removed this payment it would mean less parents could afford this fee paying education and some would turn to the free sector thus reducing this 100m figure.

Public schools will not benefit at all.

teckoda

private schools are overrated in my opinion. Ones ability to study or even lack therefor, does not magically change through a private school anyway. To an extent you have no choice but to improve, but I guess thats what gives private schools an edge.

I do not think that such funding should be allocated to the likes of private schools who rake in the dosh like.

Fad

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I personally wouldn't go to a fee-paying/grind school. It all seems a bit too pretentious for my liking.

To be fair, its unlikely you had a huge element of personal choice when it came to 2nd level, parents really make the decision. Also when you start on a secondary school in 1st year, its unlikely you'd be particularly aware of what being pretentious is, so you're talking out of your hat there :pac:

Unregistered. wrote: »

Their funding should be withdrawn, and it should be used to increase the public schools facilities, reduce class sizes etc... to bring them up to be on par with private schools.

The private schools will have to put up their price, but who cares? - Who then will pay more to go to a school which which will be no better facilitated than a public schools? The really wealthy might - but who cares?!

The public schools would be the main beneficiary, who's gonna argue with that?

If the fee's go up, parents wont be able to pay, they join free education or they demand a tax break, either way the public system would suffer.

Unregistered.

Fad wrote: »

If the fee's go up, parents wont be able to pay, they join free education or they demand a tax break, either way the public system would suffer.

So what if they won't be able to pay - there would be no point in paying! As i have indicated, they could be re-entering into better equipped public system, on par with the private schools. (provided the money is allocated correctly.

whadabouchasir

themont85 wrote: »

Actually of all the times for 'fee paying schools' this is a good time for the State's finances. The 90 million a year argument is complete bull tbh, fee paying schools save the State millions. .

Only someone from blackrock would say that! Thare is also a debate about this on the thread about points inflation.

Fad

Unregistered. wrote: »

So what if they won't be able to pay - there would be no point in paying! As i have indicated, they could be re-entering into better equipped public system, on par with the private schools. (provided the money is allocated correctly.

They wouldnt be going into better equpped schools because all the people who would be going to a Private would be going public instead. So all the pressure they're alleviating now would fall back onto to the Public, meaning there'd be no improvement at all. Remember change doesnt exactly happen overnight when it comes to schools.

Unregistered.

Fad wrote: »

They wouldnt be going into better equpped schools because all the people who would be going to a Private would be going public instead. So all the pressure they're alleviating now would fall back onto to the Public, meaning there'd be no improvement at all. Remember change doesnt exactly happen overnight when it comes to schools.

"all the pressure" would ya stop. Tell me, what's the figure for those attending fee-paying schools???

Fad

Unregistered. wrote: »

"all the pressure" would ya stop. Tell me, what's the figure for those attending fee-paying schools???

Ive no idea, but I'd say its quite high, especially in Dublin.

Fad

Then what are the numbers of teachers being paid in these schools, you act as if that hundreds of millions are going to them!

Unregistered.

Fad wrote: »

Then what are the numbers of teachers being paid in these schools, you act as if that hundreds of millions are going to them!

Errr, no actually quite the opposite. I'd advise you go do a bit of research before you go shouting about claims like "all the pressure they're alleviating". And while you're at it, find out how many of the teachers in these schools are paid by the state. Then you might change you attitude.

Fad

Unregistered. wrote: »

Errr, no actually quite the opposite. I'd advise you go do a bit of research before you go shouting about claims like "all the pressure they're alleviating". And while you're at it, find out how many of the teachers in these schools are paid by the state. Then you might change you attitude.

You dont seem to know yourself!

I dont pretend to know the figures but they do take a fair bit of pressure of the public system (as someone quite correctly stated earlier in this thread). In south Dublin I'd say there's a few thousand students in Private schools, if they were to all flood back into the public system, that'd put a fair bit of pressure on to the existing system.

Piste

The parents that send their children to private schools are paying tax just like the parents who send their kids to public schools. Often a lot more tax because these parents tend to be wealthier.

The tax all goes for the same purpose. The DoE provides a certain number of teachers and provides for certain facilities, why shouldn't parents have a choice of putting more money into a school which their taxes have already gone towards in order to provide better facilities or more teachers than the DoE does?

efb

Because it creates an inequality on children that don't choose their socioeconomic background, they're born into it.

K4t

the_syco wrote: »

If the school your kid was going to go to was a run down piece of sh|t, where absenteeism was high, fail rates were high, and you had the money to send you kid to a school down the road which had an excellent success rate, and the kids enjoyed going to the school, which would you pick?

And the parents who can't afford to send their children private? Their kids just continue to suffer in the "run down piece of sh|t"".
Instead, the money which is spent on the private school should be diverted to the public school. Crazy eh? :rolleyes:

Fad wrote: »

You dont seem to know yourself!

I dont pretend to know the figures but they do take a fair bit of pressure of the public system (as someone quite correctly stated earlier in this thread). In south Dublin I'd say there's a few thousand students in Private schools, if they were to all flood back into the public system, that'd put a fair bit of pressure on to the existing system.

I imagine that the majority of children going to private schools are from well off backgrounds so I'd doubt they'd stop going private.

Piste

efb wrote: »

Because it creates an inequality on children that don't choose their socioeconomic background, they're born into it.

But that's clearly not the fault of the fee-paying parents, it's the government's fault. If there were no fee-paying schools I can't see how it'd have a positive effect on people born into a lower socio-economic background.

K4t

Piste wrote: »

The parents that send their children to private schools are paying tax just like the parents who send their kids to public schools. Often a lot more tax because these parents tend to be wealthier.

The tax all goes for the same purpose. The DoE provides a certain number of teachers and provides for certain facilities, why shouldn't parents have a choice of putting more money into a school which their taxes have already gone towards in order to provide better facilities or more teachers than the DoE does?

That's rubbish imo. My parents pay slightly more in taxes than my best friend, does that mean I get extra attention from the teacher? :rolleyes:

The fact is, if these people want their children in private education, they should be paying for it themselves. It's not as if they cannot afford it.

K4t

Piste wrote: »

But that's clearly not the fault of the fee-paying parents, it's the government's fault. If there were no fee-paying schools I can't see how it'd have a positive effect on people born into a lower socio-economic background.

They might see some of that €90million. It mightn't seem a lot to you but to us lower class it does

Piste

But they are paying for it themselves, through taxes and extra money. The parents pay taxes so their children have every right to the same standard of education as another child in a non-fee paying school. BUT, these parents can also afford to pay for extra teachers, classes and facilities. These "extras" cos the state NOTHING, they're the parents' money. They should be allowed spend their money as they wish.

K4t wrote: »

They might see some of that €90million. It mightn't seem a lot to you but to us lower class it does

I'm in a public school actually.

It's unlikely they'd see part of that €90 million, most of it would go to either building new schools or expanding existing ones so the students who now can't afford to go to private schools (seeing as they would no longer be government-funded) have to go to a public one.

Also it's completely unfair to suggest that parent's tax money should not go to their child's education just because they could afford to send them to a private school.

K4t

Piste wrote: »

But they are paying for it themselves, through taxes and extra money. The parents pay taxes so their children have every right to the same standard of education as another child in a non-fee paying school. BUT, these parents can also afford to pay for extra teachers, classes and facilities. These "extras" cos the state NOTHING, they're the parents' money. They should be allowed spend their money as they wish.

Fyi: Everybody pays taxes, not just the parents of private school kids.

By all means let them spend their money as they wish. Just don't give them my money so their children can gain an unfair advantage over me.

SarcasticFairy

K4t wrote: »

They might see some of that €90million. It mightn't seem a lot to you but to us lower class it does

But if the private schools were made public surely money would have to be spread more thinly over more schools, seeing as the Government would now be funding the public schools and then the now public-private schools (if that makes sense...)? They would be seeing less money, rather than some of the €90million?

Piste

They're not being "Given" money so their kids an have an unfair advantage over you, they're giving money themselves. The DoE money goes for the exact same purposes as it does for public schools, the fancy things you see in private schools are provided by parents, not the state.

K4t

Piste wrote: »

They're not being "Given" money so their kids an have an unfair advantage over you, they're giving money themselves. The DoE money goes for the exact same purposes as it does for public schools, the fancy things you see in private schools are provided by parents, not the state.

I think €90m would go a long way.

The fact is that the State shouldn't be funding private education at all. If you can't see that then it's your loss.