Private Fee-Paying Schools

whadabouchasir

I meant by giving less money to private schools(they already have more than enough) the difference between them and public schools would decrease so their popularity would also. Do you not want there to be an equal standard of education across the country?because thats what it sounds like.Also if the standard of public schools get high enough then very few private ones will be left. Cubas healthcare system is proof that this "aspiration" can become reality.

themont85

whadabouchasir wrote: »

I meant by giving less money to private schools(they already have more than enough) the difference between them and public schools would decrease so their popularity would also. Do you not want there to be an equal standard of education across the country?because thats what it sounds like.Also if the standard of public schools get high enough then very few private ones will be left. Cubas healthcare system is proof that this "aspiration" can become reality.

Em i have elaborated more than enough in my other posts about your not so novel ideas, if you choose to continue to ignore them i couldn't be bothered posting more. The fact you can't elaborate anymore than spouting the usual 'more funding for disadvantaged areas', 'equality' without thinking or having an idea of its consquences, is a poor sign of your arguments basis. Just a tip but in the English exam for your LC you'll have to back your arguments up a little more than saying the same old stuff that sounds good but has no basis behind it.

Of course i want more equal education system but your 'proposal' will not work. Put it this way if you had your way, barring a communist like change in our consitution, we will have a system like they have in the US which has a far bigger gap between their normal high schools and private schools.

Oh and don't believe everything you see Michael Moore spout of about Cubas health system.

PurpleFistMixer

themont85 wrote: »

You will never be able to elimanate a parents preference for private schooling. There will always be a demand for it for a vareity of reasons. They can certainlty reduce the numbers attending by improving the current standard but you will never 'elimanate' private schools completely, that is aspirational.

Why? If public schools offered exactly what private schools offered, but, you know, for free, why on earth would anyone send their child to a private school for any other reason but snobbery?

themont85

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Why? If public schools offered exactly what private schools offered, but, you know, for free, why on earth would anyone send their child to a private school for any other reason but snobbery?

Minority religions such as Church of Ireland run boarding schools which can only be fee paying, these schools have to charge fees for a number of reasons. St Killians German School is another example. These schools serve different purposes both religous and for ex pats which State schools cannot. And yes snobbery probably would play a part.

PurpleFistMixer

themont85 wrote: »

Minority religions such as Church of Ireland run boarding schools which can only be fee paying, these schools have to charge fees for a number of reasons. St Killians German School is another example. These schools serve different purposes both religous and for ex pats which State schools cannot. And yes snobbery probably would play a part.

Well, yes in the case of boarding schools it makes sense, as you're basically just paying for accomodation. (Though in my ideal-happy-fantasy-land, if a student found themself without a home, they'd be given somewhere to stay free of charge.)

freyners

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Why? If public schools offered exactly what private schools offered, but, you know, for free, why on earth would anyone send their child to a private school for any other reason but snobbery?

exactly, its all about people being pretencious

it will be interesting to see how they fare now in these times

Fad

freyners wrote: »

exactly, its all about people being pretencious

it will be interesting to see how they fare now in these times

I think you missed her point slightly.............If the public schools offered the exact same facilities, what would be the point?

Since that will (probably) never happen, no need to worry:D

PurpleFistMixer

Fad wrote: »

I think you missed her point slightly.............If the public schools offered the exact same facilities, what would be the point?

Since that will (probably) never happen, no need to worry:D

Well, actually as it is atm I think a lot of it is due to snobbery etc., considering there are plenty of perfectly great public schools. (And it's not like there's not enough space in them, the numbers in my school decreased steadily as I progressed through it.)

Fad

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Well, actually as it is atm I think a lot of it is due to snobbery etc., considering there are plenty of perfectly great public schools. (And it's not like there's not enough space in them, the numbers in my school decreased steadily as I progressed through it.)

There are some really nice ones I'll grant you that, Muckross Park and Pobal Scoil Corca Duibhne spring to mind.
I'd have preferred to go to Colaiste Eoin in retrospect, but I didnt have much of a choice owing to the fact that i had moved to the area not long before I went into 2nd level.

That said, my school does have a nice reputation for employing past pupils, so if I go into teaching, I'd have a pretty good chance of employment.

Theres not alot of places when it comes to getting in 1st year, sure people drop out, but not until after the JC

whadabouchasir

themont85 wrote: »

Em i have elaborated more than enough in my other posts about your not so novel ideas, if you choose to continue to ignore them i couldn't be bothered posting more. The fact you can't elaborate anymore than spouting the usual 'more funding for disadvantaged areas', 'equality' without thinking or having an idea of its consquences, is a poor sign of your arguments basis. Just a tip but in the English exam for your LC you'll have to back your arguments up a little more than saying the same old stuff that sounds good but has no basis behind it.

.

Indeed I have and I have found out that the government contribute €300-€600 per student per year to public schools (depending on the school)this means that even if an influx of private students entered the public system the €100 million would more than make up for the increased cost of additional students also because the average teacher to pupil ratio is 18 in public schools even a large increase in private students would not require a lot of new teachers.I also noticed that your arguments were lacking in actual facts and based more on assumptions.

themont85

whadabouchasir wrote: »

Indeed I have and I have found out that the government contribute €300-€600 per student per year to public schools (depending on the school)this means that even if an influx of private students entered the public system the €100 million would more than make up for the increased cost of additional students also because the average teacher to pupil ratio is 18 in public schools even a large increase in private students would not require a lot of new teachers.I also noticed that your arguments were lacking in actual facts and based more on assumptions.

I sure hope your not doing honours maths for your Leaving Cert.

I can't believe you still don't get this.

whadabouchasir

€600 multiplied by 10,000 students is €6 million. Check if you don't believe.Also where are your facts to support your argument? You accuse me of being incorrect and unrasonable when I'm the one with the facts.

deleriumtremens

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I personally wouldn't go to a fee-paying/grind school. It all seems a bit too pretentious for my liking.

On an aside: I think there's far more merit in achieving a good Leaving Cert. in an "ordinary" school than there is in achieving one in a fee-paying/grind school; I'd be far prouder of myself doing it the traditional way, anyway.

Exactly. Show some balls and just f'uckin do the work

Clodidah

Jesus christ this thread has frustrated me so much, you sound so bloody snobby you know that? And im talking about all of you that are saying that private schools are full of people who can afford the extra fees. Like in all fairness do you actually know that?

I go to a private school, my parents cant afford the extra fees that are being lumped on next year, so ill do my leaving cert this year, but my three younger siblings are bing pulled from the school and moved, god knows where cos there is a shortage of school places in my area.

And all this socio-economic backgrounds business, there is 80 people in my year and out of that 10 are getting fully paid scholorships because they couldn't afford the school for any otherway and the school was made take on extra students because of the shorttage of schools in the area.

Do you have any idea what people with stupid preconcieved ideas about private schools do to the people who go to private schools? I regularly get abuse hurled at me walking into town in my uniform, cos im a 'snobby private school b**ch', my sister and her friends had stones thrown at them from a bunch of guys on bikes for the same reason.

There is every kind of person going to my school so you can come off your claims that its so rich kids socialise with the right 'kind of people' thats all your uneducated assumptions.

The reason I went to a prviate school, its the only co-ed school in my catchment area. Same reason alot of people went there, the others? because there is no other Protestant school in the area.

themont85

whadabouchasir wrote: »

€600 multiplied by 10,000 students is €6 million. Check if you don't believe.Also where are your facts to support your argument? You accuse me of being incorrect and unrasonable when I'm the one with the facts.

You are skewing the figures here. There are more than 10,000 in fee paying educaition in this country-15,000 is the last estimate i've heard. 6 million out of 100m sounds great but you are ignoring the fact that the 100m must be carried over because that is teachers salaries which have to be paid regardless. You are ignoring the fact that the Department pays a smaller teacher student ratio to fee paying schools. Other areas such as children with disabilities ect are not be allowed for. Capital cost of building extra schools too are being ignored. All in all it would be more expensive.

Look at the poster in front of me. This is exactly the reason why fee paying education will exist and can never be 'elimanated'.

Do you believe that taking away this 100m would automatically lead us to a education system with less of a gap between free and private education?

Piste

What people don't seem to be realising is that the government provides roughly the same standard of education to everyone, it's the parents that make up the different between schools, and why shouldn't they? It's their money and should be able to spend it as they wish.

PurpleFistMixer

Clodidah wrote: »

Jesus christ this thread has frustrated me so much, you sound so bloody snobby you know that? And im talking about all of you that are saying that private schools are full of people who can afford the extra fees. Like in all fairness do you actually know that?

Let's look at this logically. What separates a fee-paying school from a non-fee-paying school? Paying fees. Now, we can also deduce from the fact that people who go to fee-paying schools are, for example, on the internet, that their parents have not sold everything they have to send them there. Now, does it seem so crazy that some of us might believe that people who go to fee-paying schools can afford to do so?

Clodidah wrote: »

And all this socio-economic backgrounds business, there is 80 people in my year and out of that 10 are getting fully paid scholorships because they couldn't afford the school for any otherway and the school was made take on extra students because of the shorttage of schools in the area.

...

There is every kind of person going to my school so you can come off your claims that its so rich kids socialise with the right 'kind of people' thats all your uneducated assumptions.

Do you honestly believe that private schools don't discriminate on the basis of wealth because a token 12.5% of your year can't afford several extra thousand euro a year to go to school?
Also, are you saying here that nobody in your school is there so they don't associate with "bad types"? So they can network with "the right people"? That the ONLY reason they're there is because they're either a devout Protestant or due to it being co-ed?

themont85

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Let's look at this logically. What separates a fee-paying school from a non-fee-paying school? Paying fees. Now, we can also deduce from the fact that people who go to fee-paying schools are, for example, on the internet, that their parents have not sold everything they have to send them there. Now, does it seem so crazy that some of us might believe that people who go to fee-paying schools can afford to do so?


Do you honestly believe that private schools don't discriminate on the basis of wealth because a token 12.5% of your year can't afford several extra thousand euro a year to go to school?
Also, are you saying here that nobody in your school is there so they don't associate with "bad types"? So they can network with "the right people"? That the ONLY reason they're there is because they're either a devout Protestant or due to it being co-ed?

PurpleFistMixer you are completely missing the point here. I had a chat with a person i know from my own old school recently about their fees. They have gone up a sizeable amount since i left a few years back-they are now about 4000 grand per year. The school has just over 500 teachers meaning the department pays for 25 teachers, this amounts to an average of 2400 per pupil extra in fees when averaging between teacher wage scales. Now I don't know about anyone else but this would be unaffordable for my parents considering i had 2 siblings at the same time in school. Over 7000 extra per year, that im afraid would be unaffordable for a lot of parents who send their kids to fee paying schools(who are mainly middle class parents not upper class millionaires). You would still have people who could afford of course this extra fee but they would continue and these schools would become more elitist.

The poster there mentioned reasons why they went to such a school. The fact that it has a Protestant ethos is a reason for people to send their kids there, scholarships are run in a lot of schools-its another way in which parents supplement education. THese schools serve a minority which the State cannot.

Also saying 'private schools don't discriminate on the basis of wealth because a token 12.5% of your year can't afford several extra thousand euro a year to go to school', is just silly. You can say that about everything discriminating because a person can't afford it. These schools don't have to take scholarship students in but do for a vareity of reasons. Its more than a 'token' effort really and complies with the ethos of the schools who do it.

I'm done with thread tbh, its just the same arguments being rehashed over and over. Its been a decent little debate but thankfully i know that the government and main opposition have a just a little sense and won't be changing this anytime soon and our education system won't suffer as a result:D

freyners

Fad wrote: »

I think you missed her point slightly.............If the public schools offered the exact same facilities, what would be the point?

Since that will (probably) never happen, no need to worry:D

Undrstand what your saying, ill make myself clearer,

i think that if you have too equal schools near to you, one private and one public, the only way you could the private is status or to keep your child away from ordinary people:(

PurpleFistMixer

themont85 wrote: »

PurpleFistMixer you are completely missing the point here. I had a chat with a person i know from my own old school recently about their fees. They have gone up a sizeable amount since i left a few years back-they are now about 4000 grand per year. The school has just over 500 teachers meaning the department pays for 25 teachers, this amounts to an average of 2400 per pupil extra in fees when averaging between teacher wage scales. Now I don't know about anyone else but this would be unaffordable for my parents considering i had 2 siblings at the same time in school. Over 7000 extra per year, that im afraid would be unaffordable for a lot of parents who send their kids to fee paying schools(who are mainly middle class parents not upper class millionaires). You would still have people who could afford of course this extra fee but they would continue and these schools would become more elitist.

I assume you mean 50 teachers?
I think you missed my point, however. If the parents couldn't afford to send their children to fee paying schools, the children simply wouldn't be there. That's all I was saying. I can understand if the school is increasing their fees and the children have to drop out - then they're not in a private school any more, because they can't afford it. While they are there, provided the family isn't going into ridiculous debt/sacrificing all luxuries (for example the internet), they evidently can afford it.

themont85 wrote: »

Also saying 'private schools don't discriminate on the basis of wealth because a token 12.5% of your year can't afford several extra thousand euro a year to go to school', is just silly. You can say that about everything discriminating because a person can't afford it. These schools don't have to take scholarship students in but do for a vareity of reasons. Its more than a 'token' effort really and complies with the ethos of the schools who do it.

The poster was saying the socio-economic background thing was nonsense, because of that 12.5%. I was saying it isn't, because the fundamental issue with private schools is that you have to be able to pay that money to get in - they discriminate on principle. The fact that they take in scholarships is, well, nice, but if the scholarships are based on academic ability, I'm guessing, perhaps cynically of me, that the only reason they do it is to have better results. It looks bad to pay a lot to send a child to a school that doesn't "produce" good results - they want high achievers. This is getting slightly off topic though. The thread is about whether or not they should get funding - I think they should, even if I don't agree with the idea of private schools at all.

Clodidah

They are notac adamecally based scholorships so you can take that out of the equation.

There is also the best facilities for people with learning difficulties in the area in my school, so add that to the list and for a school with 500 pupils it dosnt leave many other options for people who only come to 'rub with the best people' seriously get off your high horse would you? Its s*it from people like you that causes discrimination.

And its lower in the league tables then 4 of the (single sex) schools in the area, so its not just results they care about.

PurpleFistMixer

Clodidah: Very well, your school is an unusual case. I still believe, for reasons I have illustrated, that private schools are inherently discriminatory. I don't assume everyone who goes there is a snob, I simply think there is a degree of that surrounding the entire idea. It's a shame that things like disability services etc. are sometimes only available in private schools, a crying shame in fact, the blame of which can only be pointed at the government, and I would certainly hope the government pays for these people to attend private schools... but of course I'm an idealist.
For future reference, however, venting your frustration at another person online is quite futile, so please try and refrain from suggesting that "people like me" are causing discrimination.

Fad

Clodidah wrote: »

Its s*it from people like you that causes discrimination.

Wouldya relax,

1.She's a mod, you have to be extra civil with her*

2.PFM is one of the more level headed and frankly helpful posters on this board, so "People like you" is a bit kinda stupid.

3.If you look back at the start of the thread, her posts may not agree with your point, but they make more sense than that other guy who just ranted about class size and some bull about €6 million.

4.Its people who whinge, saying private schools are pretentious, or they should get any money, without actually thinking about what theyre saying, are the ones who cause discrimination.


*may not be true.

(Also alot of private schools operate a system where if parents face economic problems the school pays the fees for them, look into that...........)

MathsManiac

themont85 wrote: »

...They have gone up a sizeable amount since i left a few years back-they are now about 4000 grand per year.

Whoa! 4 million quid. Now that's expensive!

themont85

MathsManiac wrote: »

Whoa! 4 million quid. Now that's expensive!