Pulled over on the N7

ottostreet

driving back up to dublin tonight, came up to the naas exit, and notice a traffic corps car in the overtaking lane, with a jeep behind it, and me coming up behind the jeep. we cleared the traffic, and the jeep is going nowhere and pulls into the correct lane. then, i cruise past the jeep, up behind the TC car. he's not moving so i pull back into the correct lane and just match the squad cars speed. he sits there, not a problem until we hit the part where it becomes three lane and the speed limit drops.car coming up in my lane so i move out behind the traffic corps car in the overtaking lane and pass it. traffic clear again and the TC car moves over. i slowly accelerate past, indicate back across the two lanes into the left lane. i stay there, holding my speed at maybe 120 (100 zone) slowly pulling away. car in my lane, i indicate out to middle lane, then back in. then...my mistake. car in the middle lane. didnt want to undertake in front of the guards so i indicate out behind the upcoming car, then across into overtaking lane, then back across. TC car flies up behind me and pulls me over. says i was speeding (which i was), but says nothing else really. checks my discs and asks for my licence, then heads back to the car and sits there for a while. comes back, says ill get a letter for speeding. pay it and take the two points. if i bring it to court, hell tell the judge i was swerving dangerously all over the road, lane changing like a madman with "flashfloods" all over the place. i accepted it at the time, but now ive mulled it over, and the madder ive gotten. yes i was speeding, but apart from that, i dont feel i was in any way dangerous. i feel, based on his driving, he was out to pull someone over and i made a mistake in front of him. im going to pay the fine if it comes and all, but the main question is, can he do me for speeding if he has no proof? seeing as how he probably only matched my speed to see what i was doing. also, when pulling back out to rejoin traffic, a nissan micra was sitting in the middle lane doing 50mph, i wasnt about to start "swerving all over the lanes" again, so undertook him, right in front of the guard. im a little annoyed as you can probably tell lol

Geri Boyle

Can I ask what posessed you to speed in front of a traffic corps Garda car? You know it's their job to catch people speeding and issue tickets right? ie. He more than likely was out to catch someone as that is his job! He doesnt need proof, he observed you breaking the speed limit -which doesnt apply to him btw. Why did you think you'd get away with it? It's your own fault tbh, accept the fine and learn a lesson from it.

BostonB

Is this for real? Its like you were taunting him.

tossy

oh no here we go again!

i was speeding
i got caught.
what gives them the right to catch me!

take the points like a man!

MarkR

ottostreet wrote: »

driving back up to dublin tonight, came up to the naas exit, and notice a traffic corps car in the overtaking lane, with a jeep behind it, and me coming up behind the jeep. we cleared the traffic, and the jeep is going nowhere and pulls into the correct lane. then, i cruise past the jeep, up behind the TC car. he's not moving so i pull back into the correct lane and just match the squad cars speed. he sits there, not a problem until we hit the part where it becomes three lane and the speed limit drops.car coming up in my lane so i move out behind the traffic corps car in the overtaking lane and pass it. traffic clear again and the TC car moves over. i slowly accelerate past, indicate back across the two lanes into the left lane. i stay there, holding my speed at maybe 120 (100 zone) slowly pulling away. car in my lane, i indicate out to middle lane, then back in. then...my mistake. car in the middle lane. didnt want to undertake in front of the guards so i indicate out behind the upcoming car, then across into overtaking lane, then back across. TC car flies up behind me and pulls me over. says i was speeding (which i was), but says nothing else really. checks my discs and asks for my licence, then heads back to the car and sits there for a while. comes back, says ill get a letter for speeding. pay it and take the two points. if i bring it to court, hell tell the judge i was swerving dangerously all over the road, lane changing like a madman with "flashfloods" all over the place. i accepted it at the time, but now ive mulled it over, and the madder ive gotten. yes i was speeding, but apart from that, i dont feel i was in any way dangerous. i feel, based on his driving, he was out to pull someone over and i made a mistake in front of him. im going to pay the fine if it comes and all, but the main question is, can he do me for speeding if he has no proof? seeing as how he probably only matched my speed to see what i was doing. also, when pulling back out to rejoin traffic, a nissan micra was sitting in the middle lane doing 50mph, i wasnt about to start "swerving all over the lanes" again, so undertook him, right in front of the guard. im a little annoyed as you can probably tell lol

Speeding and going to change lanes without looking (right in front of the guards), what way did you see that meeting ending?

metricspaces

I think the question that the original poster was asking was:

Can you be legally charged with speeding if there is no evidence for you speeding other than the Gardas word i.e. would there be enough evidence to convict you in a court of law for speeding?

This is a legitimate question to ask and the bottom line is if there isn't enough evidence for the charge to hold in court then there is no reason why the OP should accept the charge - even though he was speeding.

Speeding is not like dangerous driving. Speeding isn't a subjective measure like dangerous driving. Either your speed was above the legal limit or it wasn't.

I would be surprised if a Garda saying "Judge, I know this guy was speeding as I matched his speed based on the speedometer in my car" would be strong enough evidence in a court of law to convict a driver of breaking the speed limit.

We all know that speedometers are not accurate. We know that speed cameras are calibrated by some recognized body and thus accepted as accurate and evidence that a driver was speeding.

I remember reading about cases in the UK where speeding fines were struck out of court because the driver was able to prove that the speed camera used was inaccurate or used in a manner that would make the reading inaccurate, or left too great a room for error. So even speed cameras are open for challenge.

So, if the only evidence that a Garda has to prove that you were speeding is that the speedometer in his car says you were - is that enough evidence to convict someone in a court of law for a speeding offence? If not, then there is absolutely no reason why the OP should have had to accept the fine if this is the only evidence that the Garda had.

Sofiztikated

Are Traffic Corp cars not fitted with cameras, like in England?

Being honest, I think your driving warrented the pull. Why, when pulling out again and spotting the "micra doing 50" did you not slow down? Then again, the Garda may have pull you anyway for driving without due car & attention or whatever the equivelent in law here is.

(My experience only comes from watching a lot of Road Wars and the like, and a healthy dose of common sense.)

Can a Garda testimony stand up without evidence? Evidence is generally accepted as proof, but a Garda is an "upstanding member of law" and a judge will be more likely, when it comes to word against word, listen to the Garda.

Seth Brundle

Firstly we don't know if there was speed recording equipment within the patrol car. Secondly, I don't really want to re-read the OPs post as it was hard enough the first time - how many garday were there? Two or more can corroborate stories to gain a conviction without any evidence.

metricspaces

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Can a Garda testimony stand up without evidence? Evidence is generally accepted as proof, but a Garda is an "upstanding member of law" and a judge will be more likely, when it comes to word against word, listen to the Garda.

I doubt very much that there is a Garda in the country that can accurately judge your speed by just looking at your car.

The point is if the Garda does not have a speed camera he is using his speedometer as a method of gauging your speed.

Speedometers are not accurate.

So I think the question is, if a Garda has not got evidence that you were speeding from using a speed camera, is it strong enough evidence to convict a driver in a court of law for speeding based on a Garda saying that a driver was speeding based on the speedometer in the Garda car.

Berty

Always drive like an Angel around TC. Its their job, they have no other job.

Most people will never overtake a TC ever. I did yesterday but you spend the whole time watching them in the rear view.

Yakult

ohh I love the TC's. They will try and get you for anything, be it there jobs of course.

^I couldnt agree more with berty.

metricspaces wrote: »

I doubt very much that there is a Garda in the country that can accurately judge your speed by just looking at your car.

The point is if the Garda does not have a speed camera he is using his speedometer as a method of gauging your speed.

Speedometers are not accurate.

afai it states that evidence can be given from a speed camera/vehical speedometer (could be wrong with the speedometer). Eitherway, your voice against the guards. Aint gonna go your way I would think.

milltown

I thought Garda cars had calibrated speedos?
If he was travelling at the speed limit and you passed him, that seems pretty conclusive.

vibe666

it sounds (imho) like he was trying to scare you into not fighting it because he know's if you do, it'll be more trouble than it's worth for him.

(assuming he didn't havea video camera in the car) he has no evidence other than his own testimony and I doubt that will be enough for a solid conviction if you contest it.

afaik, gatso's etc. have to be reguarly re-calibrated to ensure accuracy.

Anan1

ottostreet wrote: »

says ill get a letter for speeding. pay it and take the two points. if i bring it to court, hell tell the judge i was swerving dangerously all over the road, lane changing like a madman with "flashfloods" all over the place.

Did he just come out with this, or had you asked what would happen if you went to court?

egan007

Somethings are a given on the road - 'I was surprised that the taxi pulled straight out in front of me' - Where's the surprise that's expected.

doing 120 in a 100 Zone in the presence of a cop car

There's another one.

Seth Brundle

milltown wrote: »

I thought Garda cars had calibrated speedos?
If he was travelling at the speed limit and you passed him, that seems pretty conclusive.

You cannot accurately calibrate a speedo because many factors such as tyre wear affect the readings.

vibe666 wrote: »

afaik, gatso's etc. have to be reguarly re-calibrated to ensure accuracy.

Thats the manufacturers instruction but the law here explicitly states that the equipment is presumed to be working perfectly so there is less of an onus to keep it maintained.

BigCon

1. Driver acts like a Muppet (speeding, 20% over the limit, and changing multiple lanes in one maneuver, in plain view of the Guards, (I think, hard to read).

2. Guards do their job (after being goaded for quite a distance).

What's there to complain about (except maybe the Guards were too lenient)?
This idiot has done this before (admitting in other threads to driving at 80mph
beside a cop car on the N7, driving around looking for checkpoints for fun.

And to top it all off, he's driving this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58395985#post58395985

egan007

kbannon wrote: »

You cannot accurately calibrate a speedo because many factors such as tyre wear affect the readings.

My car speedo 80K miles - 10 on the tyres, 7 years old matches my sat nav speed almost perfectly (to within a km or two).
They are not exact but are not inaccurate either.

ciscokidder

Was behind one going west from lucan once. He was doing 10 under the speed limit in the fast lane and constantly speeding up and slowing down. Occasionally pulling into slow lane and slowing down then speeding up as soon as someone got the courage to overtake. Miles long tail back. They just have a laugh half the time by looks of things.

TheNog

BigCon wrote: »

1. Driver acts like a Muppet (speeding, 20% over the limit, and changing multiple lanes in one maneuver, in plain view of the Guards, (I think, hard to read).

2. Guards do their job (after being goaded for quite a distance).

What's there to complain about (except maybe the Guards were too lenient)?
This idiot has done this before (admitting in other threads to driving at 80mph
beside a cop car on the N7, driving around looking for checkpoints for fun.

And to top it all off, he's driving this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58395985#post58395985

+1


OP your driving was sloppy, very sloppy. Why would you feel the need to overtake in lane 3 then move into lane 1 and back into lane 3 again?? You were a red rag to a bull.

From your own account there were three reasons why you were pulled over:

1. speeding in front of a marked traffic car
2, speeding while overtaking a marked Traffic car
3. poor lane discipline in front of a traffic car

Tbh I would have done the exact same thing as them even just to see who you are. It would appear to me you were being cocky, trying to push the limit of what you can do with traffic corps present. It was a stupid thing to do and I were you I would look again at my driving skills/behaviour/attitude.

-Chris-

1) Gardai were (probably) doing an indicated 100KMPH, OP was pulling away from them, therefore they know he was speeding.

2) They didn't have a camera or speedgun so they know they can't prove speeding in court.

3) They observed driving that they considered could be seen as dangerous driving

4) They pulled the OP and basicially said "we can't prove you were speeding, but you know it and we know it. Accept the charge and the points or we'll do you for dangerous driving".

That sounds very fair to me OP, and I don't think you're right to be annoyed. If the Gardai really felt you were driving dangerously, they'd have done you for dangerous driving, they really just wanted to do you for speeding (but knew they couldn't definitively prove it) and are hoping you'll be smart enough to admit the offence and move on.

Henry Ford III

OP was unwise to drive as he did I think. Man up and accept the penalty due.

voxpop

Sounds like they only pulled him when he went across 3 lanes.So for driving in the left most lane and not undertaking a guy cruising in the middle lane, he gets nicked.

OldmanMondeo

voxpop wrote: »

Sounds like they only pulled him when he went across 3 lanes.So for driving in the left most lane and not undertaking a guy cruising in the middle lane, he gets nicked.

No, sounds like he was driving like a tit and got stopped.

Henry Ford III

voxpop wrote: »

Sounds like they only pulled him when he went across 3 lanes.So for driving in the left most lane and not undertaking a guy cruising in the middle lane, he gets nicked.

He was speeding dude, and lane hopping. In front of a T.C. car. Not too clever imho.

BnA

tossy wrote: »

oh no here we go again!

i was speeding
i got caught.
what gives them the right to catch me!

take the points like a man!

Well said that man...!!!!

voxpop

ok yeah - he was speeding, but they didnt pull him until the lane change


Btw - not saying it was clever in any way

stealthyspeeder

From reading the original post, as far as I can see

a) He was speeding
b) The guard cant prove he was speeding
c) So he has threatened prosecution of a more dangerous offence (which is wrong and shows conduct unbecoming of a guard; as if he could prosecute for a more serious offfence then it would be in the publics best interest to see this charge prosecuted for, rather than a lesser charge.)
d) According to the highway code, with regard to the lane changes described, there has been no offence.

My opinion, the guard has used unproffesional behavouir to give the ticket which he believes rightly should be given. Our poster has used common sense driving (not undertaking, yes ok he was doing 120 in a 100, but come on catch a grip, its hardly as dangerous as cars in the wrong lanes doing lower speeds forcing other cars to do unnecessary overtaking manouvers) and for this he has been given a ticket by a guard.

I dont think the grand scheme of Karma is too much out of balance here!

I wont even pass out a mondeo and/or break the speed around one without making sure its not an unmarked car(I find them very easy to spot). What possessed you op, right in front of a marked patrol car.

DublinDilbert

ottostreet wrote: »

holding my speed at maybe 120 (100 zone) ....

lane changing like a madman with "flashfloods" all over the place.

So you were doing 120kmph in 100kmph zone while the road was wet (last night there was very heavy showers) and your wondering why you got pulled? :eek:

metricspaces

AudiChris wrote: »

1)they really just wanted to do you for speeding (but knew they couldn't definitively prove it) and are hoping you'll be smart enough to admit the offence and move on.

More like they were hoping you'd be ignorant enough of the law and intimidated enough that you'd admit to speeding and accept to pay a fine.