Pope orders bishops to root out false claims of visions

Portia 27

Pope orders bishops to root out false claims of visions

The Pope has ordered thorough investigations to be carried out into people who claim they have seen visions of the Virgin Mary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/4223793/Pope-orders-bishops-to-root-out-false-claims-of-visions.html
He is hoping to cut down on an explosion in the number of bogus heavenly apparitions with new guidelines to help his bishops to root out frauds.

Benedict XVI plans to publish criteria to help them to distinguish between true and false claims of visions of Jesus and the Virgin Mary, messages, stigmata, weeping and bleeding statues and Eucharistic miracles.

In some cases exorcists will be used to determine if a credible apparition is of divine origin or whether it is demonic.

The guidelines will come in a "vademecum", or handbook, which is in its final stages and will be published soon by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

It sets out step-by-step instructions on how Church authorities should deal with claims of such supernatural phenomena.

The Pope is said to be deeply concerned by the explosion in the number of pseudo-mystics who, claiming a direct line to God, set themselves against the bishops and lure the Catholic faithful out of the Church and into disobedient cults.

When a claim of heavenly apparitions occurs, the local bishop will need to set up a commission of psychiatrists, psychologists, theologians and priests who will investigate the claims systematically.

The first step will be to impose silence on the alleged visionaries and if they refuse to obey then this will be taken as a sign that their claims are false.

The visionaries will next be visited by psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics, to certify their mental health and to verify whether they are suffering from conditions of a hysterical or hallucinatory character or from delusions of leadership.

The third step will be to investigate the person's level of education and to determine if they have had access to material that could be used to falsely support their claims.

The new document will also instruct the bishops to see if the visionaries and their associates stand to gain financially from making their claims.
The content of any heavenly messages will also be scrutinised to see if it is harmony with the teachings of the Church.

If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful.

The Pope decided to act because instances of private revelations continue to multiply, with new cases reported around the world every year.

MrPudding

Cool. This should be fun.

MrP

Portia 27

I am so glad you think this is fun too.

Mental images come racing in of old women - like in Father Ted- with the direct line to God.

How could we claim to have a link to God and cut out the middle man in a dress- named Pope.

My daughter is wondering what kind of eejits we are following some unseen man in the clouds, and how much war and killing has been done in his name- yet- no one has seen him.

But the Pope is this voice of God. Really.?

I bet the witch trials will be back shortly.

I got labelled one in 1994 in Eire- so the old nonsense is still alive in secret.

branie

Moving statues spring to mind.

kelly1

Portia, sounds like a good idea to me. False visionaries only cause division in the Church e.g Christina Gallagher, Medjugorje, Bayside etc.

MackDeToaster

Portia 27 wrote: »

The first step will be to impose silence on the alleged visionaries and if they refuse to obey then this will be taken as a sign that their claims are false.

Someone said in a thread yesterday that Jesus refused to submit to tests. How can that be reconciled with this?

Portia 27 wrote: »

The new document will also instruct the bishops to see if the visionaries and their associates stand to gain financially from making their claims.

Ah, so a bit of competition is bad then ?

Portia 27 wrote: »

If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful.

Exorcists ! Demonologists !!! Double standards !! Full marks for trying to look credible with a boomerang :pac:

PDN

MackDeToaster wrote: »

Someone said in a thread yesterday that Jesus refused to submit to tests. How can that be reconciled with this?

Hopefully none of these 'visionaries' are claiming to be Jesus.

"Do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything." (1 Thessalonians 5:20-21)

MackDeToaster

PDN wrote: »

Hopefully none of these 'visionaries' are claiming to be Jesus.

Now that would be something. What if it were Jesus come again, and he was ignored and/or locked up in a ward or something ? Does anyone know of any good novels with this as a theme ? Just musing here as it sounds as if this scenario could pose some very interesting questions (the closest I can think of are the Sykaos Papers and Stranger in a Strange Land).

Latchy

Moving statues , ah jeese remember that lark well

Phototoxin

"Do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything." (1 Thessalonians 5:20-21)

they've not heard that on catholic answers forums, believe me!

MatthewVII

I totally have to get my paws on a copy of that handbook so I can construct the most flawless and consistent visions.

Get some tourism going in my hometown. The Christian Dollar is big business these days.

robindch

MatthewVII wrote: »

The Christian Dollar is big business these days.

The value of the religious economy in America in 2007 was estimated to be just over $100 billion tax-free dollars. That's about the same as what the US Army will cost to keep on the road this year.

In terms of destination, it's around twice what education received in charitable donations, and around four times what health services received. More here:

http://www.pgdc.com/pgdc/us-charitable-giving-estimated-be-30639-billion-2007

MrPudding

Portia 27 wrote: »

He is hoping to cut down on an explosion in the number of bogus heavenly apparitions with new guidelines to help his bishops to root out frauds.

Yeah, bogus visions. Very bad, we would not want any of those.

Portia 27 wrote: »

Benedict XVI plans to publish criteria to help them to distinguish between true and false claims of visions of Jesus and the Virgin Mary, messages, stigmata, weeping and bleeding statues and Eucharistic miracles.

Will these new criteria be retrospectively applied to other established alleged visions?

Portia 27 wrote: »

In some cases exorcists will be used to determine if a credible apparition is of divine origin or whether it is demonic.

I think I will just go with :rolleyes:

Portia 27 wrote: »

The Pope is said to be deeply concerned by the explosion in the number of pseudo-mystics who, claiming a direct line to God, set themselves against the bishops and lure the Catholic faithful out of the Church and into disobedient cults.

Personally I would be more worried about child rapists under my employ, but I suppose false vision take money away from the coffers.

Portia 27 wrote: »

When a claim of heavenly apparitions occurs, the local bishop will need to set up a commission of psychiatrists, psychologists, theologians and priests who will investigate the claims systematically.

And I bet the scientific method will be viciously applied.

Portia 27 wrote: »

The first step will be to impose silence on the alleged visionaries and if they refuse to obey then this will be taken as a sign that their claims are false.

Well that isn't very good is it? Sounds like an organisation that perhaps knows it is not on the right path trying to silence those that might be.

Portia 27 wrote: »

The visionaries will next be visited by psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics, to certify their mental health and to verify whether they are suffering from conditions of a hysterical or hallucinatory character or from delusions of leadership.

Is this typical behaviour when besiding if a vison is real or an event miraculous?

Portia 27 wrote: »

The third step will be to investigate the person's level of education and to determine if they have had access to material that could be used to falsely support their claims.

So basically, anyone with an interent connection can't have a valid vision.

Portia 27 wrote: »

The new document will also instruct the bishops to see if the visionaries and their associates stand to gain financially from making their claims.

Looking for a cut no doubt.

Portia 27 wrote: »

The content of any heavenly messages will also be scrutinised to see if it is harmony with the teachings of the Church.

Why is it assumed that if it is different it is wrong. Well, actually that is a stupid question. Of course they can't afford to admit they may be wrong.

Portia 27 wrote: »

If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful.

And how will they know?

Portia 27 wrote: »

The Pope decided to act because instances of private revelations continue to multiply, with new cases reported around the world every year, this causes a drop in revenue stream from "Approved RCC Miraculous Sites (TM) and cannot be tolerated. Also, it makes the church look kind of silly.

Added a bit.

kelly1 wrote: »

Portia, sounds like a good idea to me. False visionaries only cause division in the Church e.g Christina Gallagher, Medjugorje, Bayside etc.

Adn don't forget, they take money away fromt he *real* ones.

robindch wrote: »

The value of the religious economy in America in 2007 was estimated to be just over $100 billion tax-free dollars. That's about the same as what the US Army will cost to keep on the road this year.

In terms of destination, it's around twice what education received in charitable donations, and around four times what health services received. More here:

http://www.pgdc.com/pgdc/us-charitable-giving-estimated-be-30639-billion-2007

But what cost, your immortal soul?

MrP

merrionsq

They would want to be careful not to investigate too far back in time. They might undermine their entire belief system!

What's the "Bayside" miracle/vision?

PDN

MrPudding wrote: »

Personally I would be more worried about child rapists under my employ, but I suppose false vision take money away from the coffers.

So, if one serious problem exists in an organisation then they should not attempt to address any other problems whatsoever?

I really hope that in your real life you aren't in a position of management or responsibility.

Looking for a cut no doubt.

I am not a Catholic, and certainly have no vested interest in protecting the RC Church - but your trolling is becoming a pain. This is your last in-thread warning. Next time it's a holiday.

kmick

Fiddling while Rome burns...
To do something trivial and irresponsible in the midst of an emergency;
Legend has it that while a fire destroyed the city of Rome, the emperor Nero played his violin, thus revealing his total lack of concern for his people and his empire.

Benedict further enhances his image as a Pope out of touch, out of time and out of his depth.

MrPudding

PDN wrote: »

So, if one serious problem exists in an organisation then they should not attempt to address any other problems whatsoever?

No, that is not what I meant. They "appear" to be treating this particular issue with a lot more gusto than they did the child rapist.

PDN wrote: »

I really hope that in your real life you aren't in a position of management or responsibility.

Similarly, I hope that you are not in aposition where you have to work with people who do not hold the same opinion as you or where you are required to look at things in an unbiased way.

PDN wrote: »

I am not a Catholic, and certainly have no vested interest in protecting the RC Church - but your trolling is becoming a pain. This is your last in-thread warning. Next time it's a holiday.

Fine.

MrP

Rev Hellfire

kmick wrote: »

Fiddling while Rome burns...
To do something trivial and irresponsible in the midst of an emergency;
Legend has it that while a fire destroyed the city of Rome, the emperor Nero played his violin, thus revealing his total lack of concern for his people and his empire.

Benedict further enhances his image as a Pope out of touch, out of time and out of his depth.

Interesting to you should use the story of Nero, perhaps you should research it a bit. Its quite enlightening when applied to your own comments.

Biro

MrPudding wrote: »

No, that is not what I meant. They "appear" to be treating this particular issue with a lot more gusto than they did the child rapist.

Similarly, I hope that you are not in aposition where you have to work with people who do not hold the same opinion as you or where you are required to look at things in an unbiased way.



Fine.

MrP

Very unbiased there alright MrP, in your usual unbiased stance of anything but Christians!
Besides, if you are a manager over any significant number of employees in any business, chances are you have at least one and probably more than one child rapist in the group. Or is it OK when they're your own kids?

MrPudding

Biro wrote: »

Besides, if you are a manager over any significant number of employees in any business, chances are you have at least one and probably more than one child rapist in the group.

I can assure you that if I do find any child rapists I will not protect them from the police or move them to a new area where they have a fresh supply of kids to rape.

Biro wrote: »

Or is it OK when they're your own kids?

What does that even mean?

MrP

Pamela111

kelly1 wrote: »

Portia, sounds like a good idea to me. False visionaries only cause division in the Church e.g Christina Gallagher, Medjugorje, Bayside etc.

Medjugorje is still being investigated by the Church. They have not officially stated either way.

Biro

MrPudding wrote: »

I can assure you that if I do find any child rapists I will not protect them from the police or move them to a new area where they have a fresh supply of kids to rape.

I should hope not.

kmick

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Interesting to you should use the story of Nero, perhaps you should research it a bit. Its quite enlightening when applied to your own comments.

Explain - the fact the story is known to be untrue about Nero? Rather a cryptic comment.

To be clear can I emphasise this bit
"To do something trivial and irresponsible in the midst of an emergency"

Rev Hellfire

You're a clever guy (or gal), you'll figure it out

sorella

The problem here is that every vision/visionary throughout history has been at first rejected as false.

Bernadette was plagued even on her deathbed by priests trying to get her to deny her visions.

As with every other "saint"

Padre Pio was discredited for many years. By leading Churchmen.

So what someone in the Church heirarchy says today may well be overturned in a few years time.

Medjugorje; I have read only recently that is has in fact been officially forbidden? It was a statement issued from the Vatican but I do not have the time to look it up.

And who knows in 20 years and with a different Bishop what will be thought re Christina Gallagher...

Blessings....

Húrin

robindch wrote: »

The value of the religious economy in America in 2007 was estimated to be just over $100 billion tax-free dollars. That's about the same as what the US Army will cost to keep on the road this year.

Money well not spent then.