RSA seeks public's views on learner drivers restrictions

JP Liz

The Road Safety Authority is seeking the public's views on whether zero alcohol limits and other driving restrictions should be introduced for learner motorists.

So-called graduated licensing systems are already in place in countries like Australia, New Zealand, the US and Canada.

The RSA is now seeking views from the public on whether a similar system should be introduced in Ireland for learner drivers aged between 17 and 24.

The system would include zero alcohol limits, a night-time curfew, increased penalty points and restricted car power.

Submissions on the matter can be made at www.rsa.ie for the next eight weeks.

Zero alcohol limits should be for everyone not just Learner Driver Permit holders

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

timmywex

I disagree with a good bit of this and dislike the rsa anyway, its all about targeting learner drivers, and infact, learner drivers are soem of the safer people on the roads in terms of accidents (as backed up by stats)

The good points of this are
1) Mandatory training
2) Harder test standard
3) Increased points
4) Limited number of passengers

And the woeful;
1) Zero alcohol limit............this would be bullshiz, someone takes mouth wash and are arrested for drink driving, it is also proved that diabetics or people on low carb diets would blow over due to some chemical reaction that takes place
2) Night time curfew............so when they qualify they suddenly learn how to drive during the night, bit rediculous imo, same goes to current motorway rules, not much sense in them and people dont know how to handle motorways when they pass the test
3) Restricted driving after test is passed! The person has passed the test, theyve shown they can drive, why restrict them! Sure they dont have much expirience but people through the years have got on fine, the best way to learn and gain expirience is by being at the deepend

TwoShedsJackson

(as backed up by stats)

Which stats are these?

timmywex

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Which stats are these?

Damm, i knew thatd be asked! I dont have time to look for them at the moment, will later though. It was in the news a few months back, i believe it was infact the rsa that released it

brian076

It won't be zero alcohol they're going to reduce it to 20% to allow for mouthwashes etc.
My big problem with this is that they'll bring in a range of new laws yet they can't enforce the one's that are already there. Most learners are still driving un-accompanied and/or without L plates, there seems to be no enforcement.
I used to work as a tester and we could see all the drivers arriving for their test on their own. Most of them would stick a pair of L plates on the car, then after the test, whether they passed or failed, the plates would be taken down and they'd drive home alone.

I think one solution to this, is to have a different colour Insurance Disc (maybe bright pink) for anyone who insures their car while on a Learner permit or if they're a named driver. It would make it much easier for the Gardai to spot a learner, because at the moment if someone takes their L plates off the Guards would have to stop every car at a checkpoint in order to catch an offender and we know that they're not going to do that.

Does anyone know someone who has been fined €1000 for driving un-accompanied?

wicklow joe

I dont know anyone who is going to swish mouth wash 10 seconds before they are breathalised

Alanstrainor

timmywex wrote: »

And the woeful;
1) Zero alcohol limit............this would be bullshiz, someone takes mouth wash and are arrested for drink driving, it is also proved that diabetics or people on low carb diets would blow over due to some chemical reaction that takes place

Unless mouth wash is something you use while in your car, i'd say you have nothing to worry about. And as for the comments about Diabetics, i'm a diabetic, and never heard of my body producing a chemical reaction that has the same result on blood alcohol level as actual alcohol, i think you may have confused this with something else.
And i noticed this quote ion the herald, granted it's far from a reliable source, but i doubt they'd just pick this out of the air.
Oh and afaik, if the above happened, where by a driver was accused of having alcohol in their system, a blood test can be requested which would show all.

The restriction would not apply to trace elements of alcohol, such as those used in products such as mouthwash.

Buffman

All this will result in is the ordinary decent law abiding learners finding it even harder to stay within the law, and the law breakers just breaking even more laws without getting caught.

Overall, I think the accompanying driver rule covers most of the stuff they are considering.

Bad points:

- Alcohol: Having different alcohol levels for different people sends the wrong message, it's ok for some people to have drink on board but not others. As well as enforcement problems, would a garda carry 2 breathalysers?

-Night curfew: I don't see how the time of the day affects anything. People have to learn to drive in the dark.

-Limiting engine size: The price of insurance already indirectly controls this, unless your rich, and a restriction would adversley affect named drivers using parents cars. Also, would they treat petrol & diesel engines the same.

-Newly quailified restriction: You have either passed your test and proven you can drive or not. No farting around in between.

-Ageism: Any age related restrictions are a non-runner. The RSA seems to love blaming under 25's for everything. The same laws should apply to everyone regardless of age. (Apart from the minimium age of 17 before anyone gets smart.)

-Mandatory training: Not really an issue for the law. It doesn't matter who trained you, you can either pass the test or not. Why pay some chancer €40 an hour when a family member can do it better. If this was to come in, the RSA should set a cap on charges, or maybe set up their own driving school. I know they now have approved instructors.

Possible good points:

-Penalty points: Having extra penalty points for learners is unworkable from a sheer administrative point of view I reckon, maybe reduce the limit to 6 points. (The UK has this I think)

-Limited passengers: There should be no reason for a learner to have more than 3 people in the car. (3 to allow for the 2nd tester who is sometimes supervising the driving test.)

-'Harder' test standard: Maybe not harder as such, but updated to take account of the challenges on today's roads, not 1960's roads as it is now.

brian076

Buffman wrote: »

-Mandatory training: Not really an issue for the law. It doesn't matter who trained you, you can either pass the test or not. Why pay some chancer €40 an hour when a family member can do it better. If this was to come in, the RSA should set a cap on charges, or maybe set up their own driving school. I know they now have approved instructors.

It does matter who trained you. There may be some chancers masquerading as driving instructors but this problem should be resolved when the ADI scheme is implemented at the end of April. However overall an applicant has a much better chance of passing their test if they've taken pre-test lessons and very few family members can give proper instruction at test level.

Buffman

brian076 wrote: »

It does matter who trained you. There may be some chancers masquerading as driving instructors but this problem should be resolved when the ADI scheme is implemented at the end of April. However overall an applicant has a much better chance of passing their test if they've taken pre-test lessons and very few family members can give proper instruction at test level.

I see where you're coming from, but I still don't think it's a legal matter as things stand now. They should give the ADI scheme a year to get rid off all the chancers at least.

But I still don't see a problem with a family member instructing. I know people can pass on bad habits and all that, but if that happens you won't pass the test. Simple

If you have a family member who is a competent instructor, I don't agree with a law which would force you to fork out ~€40/hour for an instructor.

If this became law they should seriously look at drivers ed classes in secondary school, and a subsidised RSA driving school of some sort, or subsidised ADI instructors. (Not likely these days I know)

dudara

I think the idea behind the diabetics/special diet people, is that such people may be producing ketones in their breath, which a regular breathalyzer cannot distinguish from ethanol. It does not mean that your blood alcohol level is elevated, but that you *may* fail a breathalyzer test.

Most of the ideas proposed are worth considering. Whether they are enforcable and practical is another story.

DancingDaisy

I agree with the alcohol restriction, and in my opinion, it wouldn't be a terrible idea to bring this in across the board.

I'm not so comfortable with the passenger restriction, mainly for selfish reasons, that I tend to do a lot of the family driving in my house, with my dad as my accompanied driver, for practice, and if this was to be brought in then I would have an awful less practice.

The night driving has both positive and negative points. They do have a point about accidents happening more frequently in the early hours of the morning, however, what I didn't quite understand was if this restriction will apply to somebody who has passed their driving test for a specified amount of time, 2 years.

I'm aware that the restricted license has not been introduced yet, but I got the impression from the article that this restriction would apply for two years after the passing of your driving test.

Another issue I had was the suggested 20 hours of mandatory lessons, which according to my calculation amounts to approximately €1000 worth of lessons, I just feel that may be a little excessive.

And finally, I disliked the suggestion of raising the six month limit currently in place for learner permit holders to a one year restriction.

I understand that they are trying to bring Ireland in line with other European countries, however, they need to have the correct resources in place first. Until this is so, it is unlikely, imo, that such restrictions will have the desired effect.

I'm open to being proved wrong though... just hoping I pass my test now that I finally have a date, and hopefully bypass these future restrictions!!

brian076

DancingDaisy wrote: »

Another issue I had was the suggested 20 hours of mandatory lessons, which according to my calculation amounts to approximately €1000 worth of lessons, I just feel that may be a little excessive.

We have probably one of the easiest and most lax driving tests in Europe. About 10 years ago my niece did her test in Germany, at that time she had to do a 6 week course one night a week on theory and pass a very tough test before getting a learner permit. She then had to do a test on town driving, nightime driving and autobahn driving before getting a full licence. During the training period she had to be accompanied by a qualified driving instructor, (no family members) it cost her the equivalent of €5000, so we're getting off very lightly

timmywex

http://www.rsa.ie/NEWS/upload/File/GDL%20Consultation%20Doc%20V3.pdf


Thats the actual document that is up for discusion or whatever, i really like the sounds of the hazard perception test

Wacko

A lot of the new suggestions make sense, we have been getting away with things that haven't been acceptable in a lot of other countries, however the RSA seem to be just making up these new rules without thinking about how they are going to be enforced, they seem to believe that they could say that every driver has to be accompanied by the tooth fairy and expect the Gardai to enforce it but in reality they have much more pressing issues to deal with. I am not sure what measures they will bring in, but they are all useless if everyone doesn't care, also does anyone know if the measures for newly passed drivers will apply just to people who have passed under the new regime or all drivers (i.e. all passed since 2007) ?

DancingDaisy

That's a fair point Brian. I didn't realise that was the case.

Personally, I still feel that amount of money is very excessive, and something that I personally could not afford. If it does come in before I get around to passing a test then I will just have to put off driving until I have finished education and gotten a job and such. I wonder if there are other people who will be in the same position as me.

Maybe the best idea overall would be to bring driving lessons and such into schools, and offer that opportunity to secondary school students over 17.

brian076

I agree it's certainly something which should be taught in schools. As an instructor I'm probably biaised in saying that compulsory lessons should be introduced, but I think 20 is excessive. My gut feeling is that they will probably make it compulsory to have at least 5 pre-test lessons before sitting a test and I don't think that's a bad idea.
Something else which is being considered by the RSA is the re-testing of all drivers. So when you pass your test you get a 10 year licence, but must sit another test before it's renewed. This could be a few years down the line but it could be introduced.

Buffman

Yes, 5 lessons wouldn't be too bad if they insisted (@€;20 each or something). 20 lessons is overkill.

The way forward is school education, not loads of complicated laws.

€5000 really is crazy, how are any young Germans driving at all!!!

jhegarty

They are sending a very bad message saying that you have passed the test and let two year go by , now you have go out with some drink in you.

I would agree with a near zero limit for everyone , but not just for one group (unless the group are people who have a previous ban for drink driving).

If the night time ban means 10pm - 5am , then it's a good idea, if it's the hours of darkness than it's a terrible one.

5 lessons minimum would also be a good idea, let the test sort them out after that.

NukaCola

brian076 wrote: »

Something else which is being considered by the RSA is the re-testing of all drivers. So when you pass your test you get a 10 year licence, but must sit another test before it's renewed. This could be a few years down the line but it could be introduced.

Why would they consider this option seeing as they can barely handle test applications for learner permit drivers and closing SGS centres in the process, that would be laughable, maybe in an ideal world.

Whats the point in introducing anything else really, the current laws are not being enforced and is a little unrealistic really to expect these new laws to be introduced effectively. They seem like good ideas but if learner drivers can drive on the motorway and unaccompanied as many do whats the chance of them being caught driving at night? Zero alcohol should be for everyone. Engine size shouldnt really be an area to be focusing on. Compulsory lessons is a great idea, i would say 10 would be plenty, 20 seems a bit too much. The driving test has to be updated.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

brian076

I would imagine it'll be a few years before this is implemented if at all but it's definitely being looked at.
I fully agree with Bumblebee, we're a great country for bringing in new laws, then not enforcing them. I'd love to know how many people have actually been prosecuted for driving un-accompanied or without L plates since last July

hobochris

it should be simular restrictions as motorbike riders have, restricted poser for learners and any who passed their test in the 1st two years. should be 1.4 max or 1.6 desiel.

NukaCola

hobochris wrote: »

it should be simular restrictions as motorbike riders have, restricted poser for learners and any who passed their test in the 1st two years. should be 1.4 max or 1.6 desiel.

Dont see the point in that to be honest, and again big problems enforcing it

hobochris

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

Dont see the point in that to be honest, and again big problems enforcing it

If they can enforce it with bikes then cars would be easier to enforce it with.

It stops naive learners getting powerful cars that they don't have the experience for, often resulting in being another death on the roads.

most traffic corps garda would have a good knowledge of cars and know the engine sizes. and if they don't they can check the chassis plate that's usually in the door well or under the bonnet for engine size.

hobochris

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This is something they should bring in once they clear the backlog, maybe next year, providing they put the effort into clearing the backlog of test queues.

NukaCola

hobochris wrote: »

If they can enforce it with bikes then cars would be easier to enforce it with.

It stops naive learners getting powerful cars that they don't have the experience for, often resulting in being another death on the roads.

most traffic corps garda would have a good knowledge of cars and know the engine sizes. and if they don't they can check the chassis plate that's usually in the door well or under the bonnet for engine size.

Do you honestly believe that guards stopping at checkpoints are going to be opening the bonnet for engine sizes and such, no chance.....its enforced on bikes for a very obvious reason, bikes and cars are very different machines. I would not class a 1.6 petrol as a powerful car, i learned and passed my test on one, and insurance is very high for learners on anything over 1.6. The driving accompanied law should be enough for this, also what if you passed your test and needed to drive a 1.8 or 2 litre company car???

NukaCola

hobochris wrote: »

This is something they should bring in once they clear the backlog, maybe next year, providing they put the effort into clearing the backlog of test queues.

That backlog will never be cleared by next year, i`d be against it to be honest unless the RSA pay for the test/tests and time i`d be missing from work, aswell as keeping the test waiting list really low

Mmmm_Lemony

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

...bikes and cars are very different machines...

Please explain why?

NukaCola

Mmmm_Lemony wrote: »

Please explain why?

Theres quite a lot, google it....